[Akula]

Wow. 2 days of riots. Police seem to be tear gassing the hell out of Istanbul and people are scared and p*ssed off. Seems to be heating up down there in the wake of the increasing encroachment of conservative Islam into all walks of life and the breaking down of the Ataturk secular traditions. The economist at my firm is pretty worried and says although the protests started due to the plans to tear down a park and replace it with a shopping mall, the undercurrent is the secular crowd pushing back against Ergogan's increasingly Islamic government. Lots of discontent has created strange bedfellows all over the country, even Galatasary and Fenerbace football fans on the same side (!) protesting together.

Seems like the Turkish mainstream press are pretty much trying to tone it down in terms of reporting, but I think it's likely to get worse before it gets better. Apparently social media has spread the news like wildfire within the country and it's really on edge. Combine this with the tensions with Syria and it sure seems like it could get even more interesting.

Would like to know from those on the ground in Istanbul what it's really like, as last year the Russian riots were not really as bad as depicted in the western press, at least in my opinion, and they didn't really spread all over town or to other cites for the most part. This seems like a much worse situation.

Funnily enough, Turkey was just upgraded to investment grade by two of the major ratings agencies....

[luggage]

i dont think its that bad! I mean comparing it to when the russians went out and protested because of the elections...they said hundreds were arrested and it seems they all forgot about it!

[lefonque]

There is no freedom of press , pls spread the word "http://occupygezi.com"

[cardguy]

I heard once that Turkey is officially a secular county with a population which is mainly conservative muslim.

Whereas Iran is officially a conservative Islam country in which the population (particularly the young) are mainly secular/liberal muslims. Don't forget as well that Iran has more young people than just about any other country.

Maybe I screwed up the quote - but just wanted to throw it out there. Since it seems that Iran and Turkey have the opposite problems.

The role of the military in Turkey is unique:

Quote:

Unlike other Western countries, the military has a unique role in Turkish society. Its job is to protect the secular and democratic republic created by Atatürk.

That means that when the principles of secularism are threatened or when the country descends into chaos, it is the role of the military to step in and restore order. This has been enshrined in every Turkish constitution since the founding of the republic.

So it should not be surprising that every time the secular republic came under threat, the military stepped in. There have been three military coups in Turkey, but, unlike other countries, after the military acted to restore order – as required by Turkey’s constitution – it then returned to its barracks.

Curiously, when Turkey’s Islamist Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan went too far in the late 1990s, the Turkish National Security Council military issued a 17-point ultimatum – in essence demanding that he stop Islamicizing the country.

This may be the world’s first “post-modern” coup. Erbakan refused and resigned. In short, the military sees its role as to protect the republic, not to rule.

But that may have changed over the past couple of years - as a result of changes in the leadership of the military:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...ffair.html

To be honest - I don't know much about Turkey. The country is never covered or talked about in the media here in the UK. Indeed - I only realised (about 4 years ago) that Turkey is unique in the Islamic world.

In that it is the only Islamic county to overthrow Islam and install a secular government. And has left in place safeguards to stop another Islamic force coming to power.

I thought that was some cool shit. Ataturk was a pretty amazing guy. And his story deserves to be better known in the West since it is of relevence to the issues that have been raised since 9/11.

[Samseau]

Well, I know that the military is used to keep control over a large Kurdish population in the east, so these revolts in Istanbul on top of this is rather strange. Seems to have many troubles all around.

[inostranec]

The thing for politically weak countries like Turkey, when the puppet leader reaches his expiration date, he is sent and another one is placed. Erdogan, which was in jail and was put to the throne by the westerners did a great job, privatized all key institutions and served well. Last couple of years he started to anger his bosses and now a new guy will be put in his place. Nothing will change. So nothing to be excited about.

And for CARDGUY. Ataturk will never be taught in western world because his revolution was opposite what western world stands for. May be that's why he was only thought in USSR and Cuba.

[Walderschmidt]

(06-01-2013 08:21 AM)inostranec Wrote:  

The thing for politically weak countries like Turkey, when the puppet leader reaches his expiration date, he is sent and another one is placed. Erdogan, which was in jail and was put to the throne by the westerners did a great job, privatized all key institutions and served well. Last couple of years he started to anger his bosses and now a new guy will be put in his place. Nothing will change. So nothing to be excited about.

And for CARDGUY. Ataturk will never be taught in western world because his revolution was opposite what western world stands for. May be that's why he was only thought in USSR and Cuba.

Care to elaborate why?

[Bill]

Meanwhile everything calmed down in Istanbul. Police went away. What is striking is that the state channel reported nothing about that stuff. Only 3 channels reported some halfassed reports.

There were also some protests in other cities like in Ankara where the police did attack them. In Izmir there were some 10k people who protested Erdogan. Erdogan after some tough words apparently backed off there is even some talk about semi-apologies.

The problem with Erdogan is he wants to create a sunni-islam identity for the turks. Of course many are naturally against that.

[cardguy]

Why are people mad about a park being built on?

[Way Cool Jr]

All my Turkish friends are getting crazy on facebook about this.
It is not about a park, it is about the future of Turkey and a struggle to prevent further Islamization and severe laws against moral issues (alcohol, etc.)
I think Erdogan, that was quite a good and smart leader crossed the line one time too much.
Sincerely I hope that this time the protesters get what they are looking for.

[inostranec]

WCJ is right. May be I am a pessimistic bastard but the leader which will come after that еблан won't be any better. No person was put as leader in Turkey without sucking western cock since 50s. So the next one will also be a pump and dump. Just like Mubarak and Saakashvili.

[Therapsid]

(06-01-2013 12:22 PM)inostranec Wrote:  

WCJ is right. May be I am a pessimistic bastard but the leader which will come after that еблан won't be any better. No person was put as leader in Turkey without sucking western cock since 50s. So the next one will also be a pump and dump. Just like Mubarak and Saakashvili.

Are you from Belarus? What do you think about Lukashenko?

[inostranec]

(06-01-2013 12:25 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:22 PM)inostranec Wrote:  

WCJ is right. May be I am a pessimistic bastard but the leader which will come after that еблан won't be any better. No person was put as leader in Turkey without sucking western cock since 50s. So the next one will also be a pump and dump. Just like Mubarak and Saakashvili.

Are you from Belarus? What do you think about Lukashenko?

No I am from Turkey. And I hate Erdogan as fuck. He was one of the reasons for me to leave the country and settle here. But still I don't think the next one will be better.

And about Lukashenko I will tell my honest opinions. I have been living here for almost 1,5 years so I think my opinions have some value. The way I see it, I have never met a person here who likes him. All I hear is "he is a dictator but he made the city clean" Why I ask,why don't you like him? They say " because he is a dictator". As coming from Turkey where exists "democracy" I was expecting the same, if not more, amount of limitations in my personal life. What I found was the same amount of freedom as Europe, jobs for everybody (if you walk on the streets or use metro you see job vacations everywhere). May be for you Americans it can sound like a joke but when I see cheap food(1kg cow meat starts from 5$ which in Turkey starts from 15$ and wages are almost the same) , cheap transportation (bus, metro 20 cents), free education and health system I can do nothing but apploud for this guy. Yes nothing is spectacular but if you think this is a simple country without the natural resources like Russia, I believe the life standards are pretty good. The minimal wage is about 300$ and the 500-600$ mark is seen as a good one I believe this "dictatorship" is 100 times better than Turkey's "democracy". And the girls are amazing but you already know that.

[sportbilly]

looking forward to travelling to Istanbul on business next week !

[Sailor]

(06-01-2013 11:50 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

Why are people mad about a park being built on?

A Park at the Taksim Square is going to be demolished so a huge shopping mall can be built there.One of the owners is the son of the vice prime minister

[Akula]

(06-01-2013 07:09 AM)luggage Wrote:  

i dont think its that bad! I mean comparing it to when the russians went out and protested because of the elections...they said hundreds were arrested and it seems they all forgot about it!

The western press completely overblew the protests in Russia last year. It wasn't as bad as what I've seen in Turkey the past couple days...they had lots of police and military people to keep control during the Russian riots and also eventually made it hard for people to protest (needed some kind of permit, huge police presence, etc.)

Also, Russians know how bad it got eventually communism, then under Yeltsin and the oligarch robber barons in the 1990s and then once again when they lost everything with the default in 98. So they don't want to go back to that sort of situation again. Seems like in Turkey this is a more groundbreaking sort of movement.

[Akula]

(06-01-2013 12:51 PM)inostranec Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:25 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:22 PM)inostranec Wrote:  

WCJ is right. May be I am a pessimistic bastard but the leader which will come after that еблан won't be any better. No person was put as leader in Turkey without sucking western cock since 50s. So the next one will also be a pump and dump. Just like Mubarak and Saakashvili.

Are you from Belarus? What do you think about Lukashenko?

No I am from Turkey. And I hate Erdogan as fuck. He was one of the reasons for me to leave the country and settle here. But still I don't think the next one will be better.

And about Lukashenko I will tell my honest opinions. I have been living here for almost 1,5 years so I think my opinions have some value. The way I see it, I have never met a person here who likes him. All I hear is "he is a dictator but he made the city clean" Why I ask,why don't you like him? They say " because he is a dictator". As coming from Turkey where exists "democracy" I was expecting the same, if not more, amount of limitations in my personal life. What I found was the same amount of freedom as Europe, jobs for everybody (if you walk on the streets or use metro you see job vacations everywhere). May be for you Americans it can sound like a joke but when I see cheap food(1kg cow meat starts from 5$ which in Turkey starts from 15$ and wages are almost the same) , cheap transportation (bus, metro 20 cents), free education and health system I can do nothing but apploud for this guy. Yes nothing is spectacular but if you think this is a simple country without the natural resources like Russia, I believe the life standards are pretty good. The minimal wage is about 300$ and the 500-600$ mark is seen as a good one I believe this "dictatorship" is 100 times better than Turkey's "democracy". And the girls are amazing but you already know that.

To be honest, I kinda feel the same way about Putin and echo a lot of what u write above re Russia. Sure Putin can be heavy handed but the alternative (Chaos, oligarchs continuing to fleece the country dry) is so much worse, and say what you will he has restored order and the country has grown a lot over the past few years.

I can't even drink a beer on the street in the US or in my car without getting arrested, or make an offcolor joke or even slightly offend someone at work without fear of major repercussions and/or getting fired. Freedom of speech no longer translates into the real world for all intents and purposes in the West these days mostly. So the whole "we're better and more free" thing is starting to get a little tiresome given the police states that the US, UK and most other western 'democracies' are fast becoming.

[luggage]

i think the iranian and syrian regimes respectively have a hand in 'lighting up the fire' in the coming future in turkey because of turkeys stance in the syrian conflict! Ofcourse they're all protesting for some important changes but shit dont get that serious..i feel for turkey, its in a dangerous dillema right now

[Arado]

Hopefully this stops the temporary flow of Turkish sex tourists to Russia so I can enjoy the summer in Moscow.

[inostranec]

(06-01-2013 10:49 AM)Walderschmidt Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 08:21 AM)inostranec Wrote:  

The thing for politically weak countries like Turkey, when the puppet leader reaches his expiration date, he is sent and another one is placed. Erdogan, which was in jail and was put to the throne by the westerners did a great job, privatized all key institutions and served well. Last couple of years he started to anger his bosses and now a new guy will be put in his place. Nothing will change. So nothing to be excited about.

And for CARDGUY. Ataturk will never be taught in western world because his revolution was opposite what western world stands for. May be that's why he was only thought in USSR and Cuba.

Care to elaborate why?

To elaborate this. I think we all know primer ministers/presidents from Nicaragua to the smallest African country and until the Malaysia can not be elected without the approval or help of the USA or the major power on this country. This was the truth with Erdogan too. But if you see him talking the last few years, you can see him talking against Nato, attacks on Libya or other North African countries, Israel and mainly Jews although later he changes his mouth after the warnings. And the hate for USA alone in Turkey is rising sky high in the last 5 years. I remember 10-15 years ago there was a woman primer minister named Ciller, we heard everyday on the news nothing but how she talked with Clinton on the phone. Everybody loved Americans back then. A person similar to her will be better for the Americans I suppose.

And about Ataturk. Yes he is a revolutionist and his war was against the colonists. He created a country in 10 years from 10 million people with 90% unable to read or write to a country which has their own airplane factory and he gave the women the right to vote and get elected even before many European countries. He paid all the debts of Ottoman Empire the country almost gone bankrupt. He was against any collaboration with other countries except his neighbours. Nobody accepts that but it was socialist in some ways and every institution was government controlled. Why is it against the western world? Because many took him as an example in their fight against English or French or whoever they were fighting with. His thoughts are only 100% freedom without any correspondence from Europeans. Shortly he was against that his country and any country like Turkey to be political slave or a market for major countries.

[iknowexactly]

(06-01-2013 07:54 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

I heard once that Turkey is officially a secular county with a population which is mainly conservative muslim.

Whereas Iran is officially a conservative Islam country in which the population (particularly the young) are mainly secular/liberal muslims. Don't forget as well that Iran has more young people than just about any other country.

This makes for a quite interesting self-correction mechanism for strict traditional societies.

Conservative countries of whichever philosophy ( Iran, Israel ( at least the orthodox)) have more children. However, when the children are growing up, it seems they want countries to liberalize to improve economics. I don't know how popular the Ayatollahs are with Iranian teenagers...?

[cardguy]

Very smart. Never thought of it like that.

[cardguy]

(06-01-2013 01:12 PM)sportbilly Wrote:  

looking forward to travelling to Istanbul on business next week !

You should!

Istanbul airport has the best business lounge in the world. My brother was there a month ago.

[Sonsowey]

I have never been to Turkey, but in the Western/Internationalist press the impression I always got was:

"Turkey's mildly islamist government has a strong democratic mandate in Turkey, with secular opposition mainly focused in Ankara and Istanbul."

So it will be interesting to see if unrest spreads beyond the two main cities to other areas.

[Sonsowey]

(06-02-2013 03:51 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

However, when the children are growing up, it seems they want countries to liberalize to improve economics. I don't know how popular the Ayatollahs are with Iranian teenagers...?

I think this is a very American attitude, which is not correct.

Americans assume that everyone all over the world values freedom and democracy as we understand them, and that if they don't have freedom and democracy, that they want to achieve it and are being held back by someone.

In Iran, I don't think this is true. Younger generations could possibly be more islamist than older generations. Islamic governments all throughout the middle east are becoming more and more popular.

Sadam was secular. Qadafi was secular. Bashar Al-Asad is secular. Mubarak was Secular.

Yet these governments are falling, and in their place are rising more islamic governments.

It's often noted throughout the Arab world that many of the older generation are actually more secular, liberal and western. Those who lived during the pan-arabism movement and believed in Arab Nationalism and Arab Socialism.

But those forces are dying out, islamic government is coming to be more and more popular, not in spite of the young, but in many cases because of it.