[Tex Pro]

(05-28-2013 12:51 AM)Wutang Wrote:  

Any topic on religion, no matter what aspect of religion eventually turns into a debate on the merits or truth value of religion. Personally, I'm still interested in hearing what other people have to say on the subject of atheism becoming trendy today in the same way that being into feminism, being into progressive politics, being a "nerd", being into yoga and the like is with people who tend to be on the edge of "cool" things. Even you anti-religion atheists out there do have to admit that these days there calling yourself an atheist is a way to make yourself look like you are the cutting edge and that you aren't some boring, dullard red state hick. Not saying that that's the reason all people are atheists but you have to admit that must be a factor with some of the more vocal ones.

^ I don't think atheism is trendy. Making fun of bible-thumpers is what is actually trendy.

[sheesh]

(05-28-2013 12:25 AM)soup Wrote:  

If you are a grown man and you worship god, you might be a closeted homosexual. Specifically, a bottom. You want a more dominant force to watch over you and tell you what to do. If god told you to bend over and take it in the ass, you'd do it just because he said to do it.

As far as talking about religion on a player's forum, the real lesson to take away from religion is that you want to dominate women with the same intensity and power that religion/god dominates the minds of it's peons.

It seems you are not aware of the hardships in life...let's see how "alpha" you are when you or perhaps your child are diagnosed with end stage cancer, for example. Religion helps people live through hard times and not go crazy in the face of hopelessness.

I'm not the type to defend religion quickly but your view of Christianity being mainly about domination is quite wrong.

[TheBlackNarwhal]

Quote:

It seems you are not aware of the hardships in life...let's see how "alpha" you are when you or perhaps your child are diagnosed with end stage cancer, for example. Religion helps people live through hard times and not go crazy in the face of hopelessness.

I'm not the type to defend religion quickly but your view of Christianity being mainly about domination is quite wrong.

Why wouldn't it be about domination? The Catholic Church and the Pope dominated (Still do?..) Europe for hundreds of years. As far as religion is concerned, most people get into the "messiah" mindset that their religion is absolute truth, and the only way to save the world is bring everyone under its banner, whether they like it or not.

[soup]

(05-28-2013 05:06 PM)sheesh Wrote:  

(05-28-2013 12:25 AM)soup Wrote:  

If you are a grown man and you worship god, you might be a closeted homosexual. Specifically, a bottom. You want a more dominant force to watch over you and tell you what to do. If god told you to bend over and take it in the ass, you'd do it just because he said to do it.

As far as talking about religion on a player's forum, the real lesson to take away from religion is that you want to dominate women with the same intensity and power that religion/god dominates the minds of it's peons.

It seems you are not aware of the hardships in life...let's see how "alpha" you are when you or perhaps your child are diagnosed with end stage cancer, for example. Religion helps people live through hard times and not go crazy in the face of hopelessness.

I'm not the type to defend religion quickly but your view of Christianity being mainly about domination is quite wrong.

Do they teach all Germans to jump conclusions like that?

I agree that it's good to be able to tell a child that mommy is just going on vacation to a very wonderful place etc.

But, not for grown-ups.

Hitchens died of cancer and remained an atheist to the end.

Religion enables hopelessness. It's the drug dealer that wants to string out the addict just enough so that he buys more but doesn't die. Religions take advantage of people's hopelessness.

[sheesh]

(05-28-2013 05:20 PM)TheBlackNarwhal Wrote:  

Quote:

It seems you are not aware of the hardships in life...let's see how "alpha" you are when you or perhaps your child are diagnosed with end stage cancer, for example. Religion helps people live through hard times and not go crazy in the face of hopelessness.

I'm not the type to defend religion quickly but your view of Christianity being mainly about domination is quite wrong.

Why wouldn't it be about domination? The Catholic Church and the Pope dominated (Still do?..) Europe for hundreds of years. As far as religion is concerned, most people get into the "messiah" mindset that their religion is absolute truth, and the only way to save the world is bring everyone under its banner, whether they like it or not.

I agree with you with regard to the church as an institution. I was referring to the belief itself though, the personal relationship between man and god though the bible.

[ElJefe]

(05-28-2013 05:21 PM)soup Wrote:  

Religion enables hopelessness. It's the drug dealer that wants to string out the addict just enough so that he buys more but doesn't die. Religions take advantage of people's hopelessness.

Religion is just a way of interpreting uncertainty. Humans can't possibly know everything, so religion allows us to fill the gaps. Some religions do this better than others. Christianity's attitude to the unknown is, however, quite unlike anything else we've seen - Rodney Stark wrote some great books on this. In particular, Christian (especially Catholic) doctrine uniquely encouraged scientific investigation when all other religious and clerics supressed it. This continued until the counter-reformation, when the Catholic Church was taken over by fanatics. In any case, atheism is merely another religion where you place a great deal of faith in the idea that everything is an accident.

The dogged certainty of atheists is by far the most terrifying religion of all. What a person absolutely certain of their view is capable of doing to other people who don't "see the light" is horrifying. When it ceases to be about issues, but starts to be about the inherent evilness of your opponents, then things start to get scary.

And when there is no religious morality to temper the ideas of an atheist completely "free" of religious morality, or any morality, then you get millions of small children with swollen bellies, no teeth or hair, lying helpless, dehydrated, lifeless on a little street, ignored by the passers by who themselves are so famished they're discussing whether to eat the neighbor's carcass

C.S. Lewis wrote some very good essays on Christianity and morality. Mere Christianity and Abolition of Man. They were meant to bolster British morale during WWII.

[Sonsowey]

(05-27-2013 12:09 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

^I highlighted a good point of yours. I live near the bible belt, and as far as I can tell Christianity is mostly a community thing. Its adherents interpret the bible as they see fit, following what they like and ignoring the parts they don't like. I mean there are advertisements for strip clubs right next to advertisements for mega-churches in the bible belt.

This is something I especially don't get on this forum.

How can you be a good Christian and make it your hobby to fuck as many girls as you can? Lust and desire of flesh are two huge sins in Christianity.

How can a Christian chase tail for sport and then admonish Atheists for not having morals?

[Sonsowey]

(05-28-2013 05:32 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

The dogged certainty of atheists is by far the most terrifying religion of all. What a person absolutely certain of their view is capable of doing to other people who don't "see the light" is horrifying. When it ceases to be about issues, but starts to be about the inherent evilness of your opponents, then things start to get scary.

And when there is no religious morality to temper the ideas of an atheist completely "free" of religious morality, or any morality, then you get millions of small children with swollen bellies, no teeth or hair, lying helpless, dehydrated, lifeless on a little street, ignored by the passers by who themselves are so famished they're discussing whether to eat the neighbor's carcass

This is ridiculous. Religious wars kill far more people than any imagined Atheist depravity.

Atheists are certain that your silly stories from thousands of years ago aren't true. That doesn't mean we want to kill you. Today you see Christian armies bombing and shooting up Muslim countries all over the world, and Muslim individuals/organizations retaliating.

What Atheist army is attacking a religious community? You're just making up nonsense.

Of course Atheists have killed people, but religious fanatics who are willing to fight and die over their holy land have been killing each other over Jerusalem for thousands of years.

[sixsix]

Atheist armies didn't kill millions of people.

It's time to stop throwing this nonsense around.

While the communist and fascist regimes did kill millions and were often not religious,
they were motivated to kill not by their lack of religion but by their retarded ideologies.

They were communists or fascists or whatever. They happened to not believe in god.
They were not secular humanists, or what we generally refer to as atheists.

In contrast, religious were motivated to kill by their religion, which is just a retarded ideology that
happens to include a divine being in its thought-vomit.

[ElJefe]

(05-28-2013 06:16 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

This is something I especially don't get on this forum.

How can you be a good Christian and make it your hobby to fuck as many girls as you can? Lust and desire of flesh are two huge sins in Christianity.

How can a Christian chase tail for sport and then admonish Atheists for not having morals?

Then you're not a good Christian, I'd say. Who's claiming to be one?

The hypocrisy is a problem, but then again, the manosphere is about hating on feminism while rejoicing in how its enabled them to dip their junk in more pootang than ever.

(05-28-2013 06:20 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

This is ridiculous. Religious wars kill far more people than any imagined Atheist depravity.

Atheists are certain that your silly stories from thousands of years ago aren't true. That doesn't mean we want to kill you. Today you see Christian armies bombing and shooting up Muslim countries all over the world, and Muslim individuals/organizations retaliating.

What Atheist army is attacking a religious community? You're just making up nonsense.

Of course Atheists have killed people, but religious fanatics who are willing to fight and die over their holy land have been killing each other over Jerusalem for thousands of years.

(05-29-2013 03:41 AM)sixsix Wrote:  

Atheist armies didn't kill millions of people.

It's time to stop throwing this nonsense around.

While the communist and fascist regimes did kill millions and were often not religious,
they were motivated to kill not by their lack of religion but by their retarded ideologies.

They were communists or fascists or whatever. They happened to not believe in god.
They were not secular humanists, or what we generally refer to as atheists.

In contrast, religious were motivated to kill by their religion, which is just a retarded ideology that
happens to include a divine being in its thought-vomit.

I myself am not particularly religious, I'm on the fence. I do, however, know my history.

What you two are missing is what moves a person to think it a good policy to eradicate his enemies? Not simply subdue, but to ERADICATE, be it heretics, jews or kulaks?

It is only possible when you assign a motive to your opponent where you credit his actions to inherent evilness. Because what's the logical answer to dealing with a thing of pure evil, someone irredeemable, who cannot be saved? It's to annihilate them.

Now, first off: fascism was quite a mild ideology and in the scale of things has probably done a lot of good. Franco and Pinochet both saved their countries from total ruin.

Communism has also not been all bad, but Ho Chi Minh, Mao Zedong, Lenin, Pol Pot and Kim Il Sung were all an order of magnitude more blood-thirsty than any fascist. Their ideology was a religion. It was a firm belief in the possbility of utopia. Robespierre was a disaster, too.

Nazism, in terms of its economic logic, has more in common with communism in that it rejects that humans are primarly motivated by economic incentives. The German economy was badly mismanaged under the Nazis. As it was under Franco and Pinochet, but for some reason, Franco and Pinochet both listened to voices of reason, and both Spain and Chile prospered after their reigns. That wouldn't have happened under Allende or the Republicans.

They thought they KNEW. Just like other fanatics think they KNOW. And if you disagree, it's because you're a bad person. If you're bad, you must be destroyed, because only a bad person would obstruct the possibility of heaven on Earth.

The point is, people are capable of both evil and good - but history has shown us those that achieve power are often of the former nature, and in their enterprising efforts they wreak tremendous havoc and cause misery. An enterprising state can do much good, but history shows us it more often than not does evil. Michael Oakeshott writes about this.

Christian doctrine, especially the doctrines of St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, are voices of reason. Just look up Thomas Aquinas's views on democracy. Forward thinking guy!

So you're not incorrect in saying Christian fanatics are guilty of evil, but you're missing a lot of nuance. When I say atheists have shown to be worse of the lot, you need to remind yourself that

Robespierre
Marx
Lenin
Hitler
Stalin
Mao
Ho Chi Minh
Pol Pot
Kim Il Sung
Saddam Hussein

and the rest were all avowed atheists and regarded Christianity and religious morals with a particular distaste beacuse religion threatened their legitmacy. They committed evil in the name of their beliefs and Christianity says that's not OK, so better to do away with the dissenting voices who can undermine your power. The evil they committed was precisely because they so adamantly rejected absolute morality. Therefore, the more rabid an atheist, the less tolerant.

[sheesh]

(05-29-2013 03:41 AM)sixsix Wrote:  

Atheist armies didn't kill millions of people.

It's time to stop throwing this nonsense around.

While the communist and fascist regimes did kill millions and were often not religious,
they were motivated to kill not by their lack of religion but by their retarded ideologies.

They were communists or fascists or whatever. They happened to not believe in god.
They were not secular humanists, or what we generally refer to as atheists.

In contrast, religious were motivated to kill by their religion, which is just a retarded ideology that
happens to include a divine being in its thought-vomit.

What matters is the result. Does it really matter under which ideology people kill ?

Every ideology, religion, belief system can be used or abused to justify wars.

[Teedub]

(05-29-2013 05:09 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

So you're not incorrect in saying Christian fanatics are guilty of evil, but you're missing a lot of nuance. When I say atheists have shown to be worse of the lot, you need to remind yourself that

Robespierre
Marx
Lenin
Hitler
Stalin
Mao
Ho Chi Minh
Pol Pot
Kim Il Sung
Saddam Hussein

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, and praised God and put God into speeches on numerous occasions. However, this could perhaps be passed off as him using Germany's religiosity to his own ends.

Saddam Hussein was a Baathist I think. Technically a Muslim, but not one of the main sects. I don't know if he was practicing or an actual believer though.

Sorry, just being pedantic.

[sheesh]

(05-29-2013 06:31 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(05-29-2013 05:09 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

So you're not incorrect in saying Christian fanatics are guilty of evil, but you're missing a lot of nuance. When I say atheists have shown to be worse of the lot, you need to remind yourself that

Robespierre
Marx
Lenin
Hitler
Stalin
Mao
Ho Chi Minh
Pol Pot
Kim Il Sung
Saddam Hussein

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, and praised God and put God into speeches on numerous occasions. However, this could perhaps be passed off as him using Germany's religiosity to his own ends.

Saddam Hussein was a Baathist I think. Technically a Muslim, but not one of the main sects. I don't know if he was practicing or an actual believer though.

Sorry, just being pedantic.

Just because someone is xyz by heritage doesn't mean much. People have always "officially belonged" to one religion or another, that doesn't mean they were followers.

The Nazis despised Christianity.

[ElJefe]

(05-29-2013 06:31 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, and praised God and put God into speeches on numerous occasions. However, this could perhaps be passed off as him using Germany's religiosity to his own ends.

Saddam Hussein was a Baathist I think. Technically a Muslim, but not one of the main sects. I don't know if he was practicing or an actual believer though.

Sorry, just being pedantic.

Let's try with an alternative hypothesis:

Christianity believes that the meek shall inherit the Earth. With this, they mean the modest. Christians believe that character is decisive in determining your worth, not your genetic potential. Nazis believed in racial determinism. Nazis did not care for moral equality between individuals. If they did, how can they justify exterminating one group based on this group's pedigree alone?

Saddam Hussein was regarded as the major enemy of Sunnis and Shiites alike. He only started invoking Islam after the US opposed him, but without success.

The point is not that any one ideology carries the seeds of evil. It's the actions of indivduals in the context they're taken that matter. Any megolomaniac can pervert power to do good or bad things for society. My point is that Christianity offers better safeguards against this perversion than atheism. And I think history proves my point very well. Christian missionaries brought medicine to Africa. When have atheists ever actively endeavored to save lives that were economically worthless?

[cardguy]

Alot of people who might be classed as atheists certainly did carry out some of the worst genocides in history.

But this is becasue atheism has only being prevalent from the twentieth century onwards. This happens to conicide with the rapid technological changes we have seen as well.

As such - the industrialised murder of millions of people has only being possible for the past hundred years or so. Had such weapons and technologies being around a thousand years ago - I am sure we would have millions of extra deaths, to add to the tallies of the many religious wars which took place in the Middle Ages.

[InternationPlayboy]

(05-29-2013 11:23 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

Alot of people who might be classed as atheists certainly did carry out some of the worst genocides in history.

While this is true, I strongly believe that it had absolutely nothing to do with them being atheists and more to do with them being megalomaniacs. Very few people have been killed in the name of atheism.

[Wutang]

Atheism doesn't tend to make people get up off their chairs and do anything - whether it be good or bad. It's simply a negation so it doesn't stand for anything. Religion on the other hand, does stand for certain viewpoints hence why it is a motivator for good or bad.

[sixsix]

@ ElJefe

All those people might have been atheist, but they were many things, like art lovers, hobby musicians and male.

The question here is: is there a causal relationship between those factors, and their actions?

What I said was that it wasn't a lack of one particular belief (existence of a personal divinity) that caused their genocidal ambitions.

Instead, what caused it was their delusional ideology.

Many ideologies (belief systems) exist that are delusional. A subset of those include the belief in the existence of a personal god, that cares about what we do, eat and fuck. Those ideologies are called religions.

Atheism is just the negation of one belief ("God is real"), not a belief system in itself.

Secular humanism is a belief system. It happens to be atheistic, since none of its beliefs contend the presence of a divine being.

What evils have been committed in the name of secular humanism?

Marxism, Leninism, Nation Socialism, Maoism are also atheistic belief systems, since they don't include divine belief. However, they include many beliefs about humanity and reality that are just as baseless as religious beliefs.

What makes these ideologies dangerous, is the inclusion of some delusional beliefs ("Jews are the root of all evil"),
not the exclusion of a delusional belief ("There's an almighty man that runs the universe").

[Purple Urkle]

Funny. Yeah, I've never seen anyone walk on water much less turn water into wine. Not saying it ain't possible via some form of power that I'm ignorant of, just saying, show me the "magic" just once and I may start "believing" what appears to be delusions of grandeur crossed with an irrational fear of death.

[cardguy]

(05-29-2013 08:45 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

(05-29-2013 06:31 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, and praised God and put God into speeches on numerous occasions. However, this could perhaps be passed off as him using Germany's religiosity to his own ends.

Saddam Hussein was a Baathist I think. Technically a Muslim, but not one of the main sects. I don't know if he was practicing or an actual believer though.

Sorry, just being pedantic.

Let's try with an alternative hypothesis:

Christianity believes that the meek shall inherit the Earth. With this, they mean the modest. Christians believe that character is decisive in determining your worth, not your genetic potential. Nazis believed in racial determinism. Nazis did not care for moral equality between individuals. If they did, how can they justify exterminating one group based on this group's pedigree alone?

Saddam Hussein was regarded as the major enemy of Sunnis and Shiites alike. He only started invoking Islam after the US opposed him, but without success.

The point is not that any one ideology carries the seeds of evil. It's the actions of individuals in the context they're taken that matter. Any megolomaniac can pervert power to do good or bad things for society. My point is that Christianity offers better safeguards against this perversion than atheism. And I think history proves my point very well. Christian missionaries brought medicine to Africa. When have atheists ever actively endeavored to save lives that were economically worthless?

I'm an atheist. But - I gotta' hold up my hand. On the whole I think religious people are better people than atheists.

Go to a soup kitchen tonight and see who the volunteers are. I bet you will find (proportionately) more 'people of faith' in such places than you will atheists.

That is just the way it is. For whatever reason - religious people do seem to make more of an effort in helping the local community.

On a philosophical level you could compare the exact moral worth of such actions. Since a religious person doing good - is opening himself up to a reward of some kind 'in the next life'. Whereas an atheist doing good is doing so with the expectation of no reward.

Still - we atheists should try and be honest with ourselves. And give credit where it is due. And if you dig out the local volunteers your neighbourhood - I guarantee you will find more religious people there than atheists.

And I want to mention the death of the Catholic priest, Maximilan Kolbe. Again - this sort of sacrifice is more common with religious people than with atheists.

I can't imagine many atheists doing the following. But I can imagine people with a strong enough faith doing it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_..._Auschwitz

Lastly - I do feel many atheists (since the economic neo-liberalism of the 1980s) have replaced morality with markets. And believe that what is economically good is also morally good.

Since 'what is good' is so much more subjective when it is up to each person to make it up as they go along. As compared to adhering to a morality which has being shared, taught and debated by billions. And which has being handed down for thousands of years.

[soup]

We all have to take leaps of faith in life.

I take a leap of faith in game. I put in a lot of time and effort upfront with the hopes that one day I'll access to models etc. It's not there yet, but I'm confident that it will happen.

Any high reward endeavor requires a great risk. However, believing a super natural entity is not a disciplined investment. It's a wild card leap of faith that has caused more suffering now then it has helped people.

[Sherman]

Addressing the original question, I would argue that Atheism is becoming trendy because it is a philosophy naturally suited for a blue pill beta society. Modern society has made things comfortable so that people can live far into adulthood without having to confront issues such as deprivation and death. In former times, you would grow up in a big family and see half your family members die before you were 13. Saying that you don't believe in something because some guy believes the earth was constructed 5000 years ago doesn't indicate an urgent, serious inquiry into the issues of existence.

Traditional patriarchy has supported religion and feminists hate the patriarchical religions, particularly Christianity. In the red pill tradition, religions acknowledge up front the failing of human nature. A good example of an alpha male society is ancient Greece. Bias of Priene was known as one of the Seven Sages of Ancient Greece. He was recognized as wise by Socrates and some considered him the wisest. His most famous quote was "Most people are evil". There is a bust of Bias in the Vatican and Christianity has absorbed much of the Ancient Greek tradition. Most religions acknowledge this, but using different language (e.g., "ignorance" in Buddhism). In contrast, the beta male society that has emerged from the post 1960s holds an overly optimistic view of human nature, tending to favor criminality, self-destructive behavior, and catastrophic blue pill social experiments like feminism. The wisdom of the 60s - "I'm ok, you're ok".

Religious patriarchy
Pill Type: Red
Sound Bite: "Most people are evil"
Exemplars: Constantine, Charlemagne, Martel the Hammer
Favorite accessory: Sword

Post 60s Modernism
Pill Type: Blue
Sound Bite: "I'm ok, you're ok"
Exemplars: Richard Dawkins, Al Gore, Barbara Streisand
Favorite accessory: Google glasses

[sixsix]

(05-29-2013 08:45 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

My point is that Christianity offers better safeguards against this perversion than atheism. And I think history proves my point very well. Christian missionaries brought medicine to Africa. When have atheists ever actively endeavored to save lives that were economically worthless?

What an utterly misinformed comment.

Christian missionaries have caused the spread of AIDS in Africa, by making sure they won't use condoms. (Instead, they now fuck babies to cure them. Well done.)

Seriously guys, how embarrassing is it to believe in, and listen to, some invisible guy that cares about wrapping up your willy?

Christian missionaries have brought even more conflict to Africa, by giving them more reasons to hate each other. Same goes for Islam. The continent is fragmented beyond belief, even though it the richest in resources and arable land.

Now the obvious: Almost all of science (and thus technology, medicine) is done by atheists.

If anything, religious beliefs have suppressed any attempt to better our stay in this present life. That is the danger of believing there will be another.

Don't forget the massive correlation between education and atheism, and IQ and atheism.

And forum-relevant: Magical thinking, like religion and astrology, is gender-specific. In other words: It's chick thinking.

[sixsix]

(05-29-2013 12:31 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I'm an atheist. But - I gotta' hold up my hand. On the whole I think religious people are better people than atheists.

If all atheists left America:

Average IQ would decrease.
Divorce rates would increase.
Teen pregnancy rates would increase.
Illiteracy would increase.
Violent crime rates would increase.
STD rates would increase.
Racial prejudice rates would increase.

So no, religion is not a safeguard against anything but your own anxieties.

[soup]

(05-29-2013 12:46 PM)sixsix Wrote:  

(05-29-2013 12:31 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I'm an atheist. But - I gotta' hold up my hand. On the whole I think religious people are better people than atheists.

If all atheists left America:

Average IQ would decrease.
Divorce rates would increase.
Teen pregnancy rates would increase.
Illiteracy would increase.
Violent crime rates would increase.
STD rates would increase.
Racial prejudice rates would increase.

So no, religion is not a safeguard against anything but your own anxieties.

I like this, but please substantiate with actual numbers. I'm inclined to believe that divorce rate would go down actually.