[Aliblahba]

I'm ugly as fuck and still think I should have kids. You're crushing my hopes and dreams.

[soup]

I'm talking about two ugly people getting together.

[Aliblahba]

How can an ugly guy attract an attractive woman? Are white girls into brown skinned guys?

[cardguy]

True story...

I was at the bus stop a couple of months ago.

I could sense about 4 figures next to me who were clearly a family.

As I spun round I saw the mother first. Wow - the ugliest woman I have ever seen.

As I turned some more I caught sight of the dad. Wow - again one of the ugliest men I have ever seen.

As a complete nerd about genetics and evolution, I was excited about checking out the children.

They were both in their late teens.

One was a guy and one was a girl.

Incredible - they were just fascinating to look at. I have never seen such ugly teenagers. And the guy had the weirdest bit of red fuzz growing out of his weak chin I have ever seen. As a nerd it made my day coming across them.

I know this story is of zero surprise to any of you. But it is really fun when you come across a textbook example of this sort of thing. Somehow thinking about this on a theoretical level isn't the same as seeing a real life example - 10 inches from your face.

[soup]

Guys with bad looks can use game can to get attractive girls.

[Eirykr]

Genetics are a bit more complicated than a direct descent from parent to child. There is a reason why certain diseases, disorders and traits will skip generations within a family. Likewise you cannot guarantee that male offspring will end up with the masculine traits of their father or vice versa. Breeding with a manjaw woman for example could give you a very masculine son, and your daughter could end up very feminine just by chance, depending on your own genotype.

The best way to think of it is as a bunch of switches on a switch board. Only a few will be flipped on, and some when flipped on will flip others off. Your switchboard and all switches are your genotype. The switches that end up 'On' are your phenotype, the genes that are expressed. When you reproduce, your mate's switchboard and yours get shuffled together like a deck of cards and a new genotype is created, the switches, or alleles will affect each other depending on whether they are Dominant or recessive, etc. It really is a crap shoot, save for trying to stack the deck (as in the example of mating with a masculine woman and trying for a son).

This is a very amateurish analogy, but hopefully it gets the point across. You can't ever guarantee what you will get because the whole point of sexual reproduction (as opposed to asexual) is to introduce random chance into the gene pool in order to ensure resiliency among the species.

[Moma]

Eirkyr is on da money. The only way to ensure you have good looking offspring is to ensure that your entire family line was good looking.

Now, some looks that are good looking on a man can look horrid on a lizard. How do you guarantee that? What if the man looks very masculine and the daughter inherits his looks? How can he guarantee that his daughter will inherit the mother's looks?

[soup]

(05-20-2013 01:22 PM)Eirykr Wrote:  

Genetics are a bit more complicated than a direct descent from parent to child. There is a reason why certain diseases, disorders and traits will skip generations within a family. Likewise you cannot guarantee that male offspring will end up with the masculine traits of their father or vice versa. Breeding with a manjaw woman for example could give you a very masculine son, and your daughter could end up very feminine just by chance, depending on your own genotype.

The best way to think of it is as a bunch of switches on a switch board. Only a few will be flipped on, and some when flipped on will flip others off. Your switchboard and all switches are your genotype. The switches that end up 'On' are your phenotype, the genes that are expressed. When you reproduce, your mate's switchboard and yours get shuffled together like a deck of cards and a new genotype is created, the switches, or alleles will affect each other depending on whether they are Dominant or recessive, etc. It really is a crap shoot, save for trying to stack the deck (as in the example of mating with a masculine woman and trying for a son).

This is a very amateurish analogy, but hopefully it gets the point across. You can't ever guarantee what you will get because the whole point of sexual reproduction (as opposed to asexual) is to introduce random chance into the gene pool in order to ensure resiliency among the species.

Thanks for clarifying. So are you saying that it's possible for two ugly people to birth an attractive? What are the odds?

I'm taller than both my parents.

[Moma]

It's similar to having tall offspring. Michael Jordan's parents were short, he's the only one in his immediate family over six feet. The next closest to his height was probably his brother Larry who is 5'8.

[Eirykr]

(05-20-2013 01:32 PM)soup Wrote:  

Thanks for clarifying. So are you saying that it's possible for two ugly people to birth an attractive? What are the odds?

I'm taller than both my parents.

Right. The odds depend on several factors: Are your grandparents attractive? Great grandparents? Are the attractive features in question unisex or only considered attractive to one sex but not the other? (Linebacker shoulders on your son = great, daughter, not so much) And every trait has it's own particular pattern in expression. Sometimes a certain trait will almost always skip a generation. Some traits will cancel others out.

For example, common knowledge would say that you would end up between your parents height. My mom for example was 5'5" and my dad 6'3", and I ended up being 5'10", but you are obviously an exception to this rule. It happens, not often, but it can.

All you can do is hedge your bets by trying to breed with an attractive person. That's what females of every species have been doing via sexual selection since the dawn of time.

[soup]

(05-20-2013 01:44 PM)Eirykr Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 01:32 PM)soup Wrote:  

Thanks for clarifying. So are you saying that it's possible for two ugly people to birth an attractive? What are the odds?

I'm taller than both my parents.

Right. The odds depend on several factors: Are your grandparents attractive? Great grandparents? Are the attractive features in question unisex or only considered attractive to one sex but not the other? (Linebacker shoulders on your son = great, daughter, not so much) And every trait has it's own particular pattern in expression. Sometimes a certain trait will almost always skip a generation. Some traits will cancel others out.

For example, common knowledge would say that you would end up between your parents height. My mom for example was 5'5" and my dad 6'3", and I ended up being 5'10", but you are obviously an exception to this rule. It happens, not often, but it can.

All you can do is hedge your bets by trying to breed with an attractive person. That's what females of every species have been doing via sexual selection since the dawn of time.

Maybe nature has a larger MO.. other than producing attractive people.

But if this were the case, than why are attractive people attractive in the first place? If it's almost random, why did we evolve to desire attractive people?

[Moma]

Attraction reflects fertility. Attraction is not uniform across the board. I, for instance, prefer voluptous lizards. I am not aroused by skinny lizards. This is triggered to the fact that if you impregnate a lizard, one with weight on her will be more likely to give birth to a healthy child. If there is a shortage of food, then the heavier lizard will be able to sustain the child longer before the child perishes.

So a big ass, wide hips, even a little belly, big breasts, these signal attraction to me.

Her face has to be feminine to me. This means no square jaw, soft eyes, no bushy eyebrows, big lips, even complexion and no beard.

That's why this talk of attractive and non attractive is not uniform across the board.

[Eirykr]

(05-20-2013 02:04 PM)soup Wrote:  

Maybe nature has a larger MO.. other than producing attractive people.

But if this were the case, than why are attractive people attractive in the first place? If it's almost random, why did we evolve to desire attractive people?

Well, in this case "attractive" also could mean "more fit". Attractiveness is really just an evolved response to certain signals of fitness. Of course there's a point where a trait no longer means fitness and quite the opposite in fact.

Take the peacock as just one example. It's large fan of feathers serve as intimidation toward predators, but as the peahen has selected for those males with larger and more ornate tailfeathers the male's survivability goes down. It's body has devote energy to growing such ridiculous plummage and the drag they create hampers it's ability to get away from predators.

Actually a lot of traits which can be a detriment in terms of natural selection are sexually selected by females. Male birds brilliant colors for example. Or how some birds will fly out in front of your car and narrowly avoid being hit (it's suspected they do this as a risk-taking display to impress females).

[ghostdog]

(05-20-2013 02:04 PM)soup Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 01:44 PM)Eirykr Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 01:32 PM)soup Wrote:  

Thanks for clarifying. So are you saying that it's possible for two ugly people to birth an attractive? What are the odds?

I'm taller than both my parents.

Right. The odds depend on several factors: Are your grandparents attractive? Great grandparents? Are the attractive features in question unisex or only considered attractive to one sex but not the other? (Linebacker shoulders on your son = great, daughter, not so much) And every trait has it's own particular pattern in expression. Sometimes a certain trait will almost always skip a generation. Some traits will cancel others out.

For example, common knowledge would say that you would end up between your parents height. My mom for example was 5'5" and my dad 6'3", and I ended up being 5'10", but you are obviously an exception to this rule. It happens, not often, but it can.

All you can do is hedge your bets by trying to breed with an attractive person. That's what females of every species have been doing via sexual selection since the dawn of time.

Maybe nature has a larger MO.. other than producing attractive people.

But if this were the case, than why are attractive people attractive in the first place? If it's almost random, why did we evolve to desire attractive people?

Nature wants health in general. Looks are actually a signal of how healthy you are. Your facial symmetry indicates a lot more than just face. There have been studies done about facial asymmetry and mental illness. There seems to be a correlation.

The golden ratio is the mathematical beauty formula found in flowers, in music, just about everywhere. That's the standard.

Like Eyrikr said, it's about making the best bet. That's mate selection.

[OGNorCal707]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I pretty much rated it 1 star from the get go, (no offense Soup, you're one of my favorite poster in the game forum). I don't get what the point of this thread is, what's with all the hatred towards ugly and fat people? I understand fat people can at least make an effort to lose weight, but why hate on those who were unfortunate to lose out in the "genetic lottery"? It's not like we get to choose our looks, height, IQ, and dick length at birth, otherwise all guys would be walking around at 6 ft. 5 in., ripped to shreds, looking like Brad Pitt, with 9 in. shlongs.

If two ugly people get together and want to procreate, I say more power to them, it's their lives, and they can't do whatever they want with them. I believe everyone on this earth is entitled to happiness, and yes that includes, the ugly, fat, handicapped, etc.

What's your solution Soup, do you think all ugly people should just do everyone a favor and put a gun to their heads and blow their brain out? That's my point, it's stupid to even start a thread like this, because their is no point to it. There's nothing positive or constructive that can come from it.

Shit, I'm definitely not the most attractive man out there, but I can at least be thankful to be at least average or above average in most categories. I try to remain humble and if anything feel compassion for those less well off than me, whether that be because they were born ugly, poor, had a fucked up family, etc., I can imagine what it would be like to put myself in their shoes, and maybe you should try it too.

[cardguy]

(05-20-2013 02:16 PM)Eirykr Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 02:04 PM)soup Wrote:  

Maybe nature has a larger MO.. other than producing attractive people.

But if this were the case, than why are attractive people attractive in the first place? If it's almost random, why did we evolve to desire attractive people?

Well, in this case "attractive" also could mean "more fit". Attractiveness is really just an evolved response to certain signals of fitness. Of course there's a point where a trait no longer means fitness and quite the opposite in fact.

Take the peacock as just one example. It's large fan of feathers serve as intimidation toward predators, but as the peahen has selected for those males with larger and more ornate tailfeathers the male's survivability goes down. It's body has devote energy to growing such ridiculous plummage and the drag they create hampers it's ability to get away from predators.

Actually a lot of traits which can be a detriment in terms of natural selection are sexually selected by females. Male birds brilliant colors for example. Or how some birds will fly out in front of your car and narrowly avoid being hit (it's suspected they do this as a risk-taking display to impress females).

The Handicap Principle is one of the more interesting insights from evolutionary theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principle

[speakeasy]

(05-20-2013 10:49 AM)soup Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 10:43 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Ugly parents != ugly children

I've seen some troll parents with banging daughters and vice versa. It helps, but there's not a whole hell of a lot one can do.

The genetic lottery is a rough one.

Seriously? You've seen hot girls with ugly parents? I find that hard to believe.

I often see this with mixed-race kids. A really attractive mixed chic often has either average or busted parents. Look at Alicia Keys mom:



Inbred people or a group with a stagnant genepool start looking like mutants over generations(which is my theory on ugliness in England) so I guess it stands to reason that mixing has the opposite effect, a hybrid vigor.

[Samseau]

There is certainly a strong case to be made for increased fitness with genetic mixing. The key is to have enough mixing to promote fitness without destroying the original phenotypes.

[soup]

(05-20-2013 03:16 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I pretty much rated it 1 star from the get go, (no offense Soup, you're one of my favorite poster in the game forum). I don't get what the point of this thread is, what's with all the hatred towards ugly and fat people? I understand fat people can at least make an effort to lose weight, but why hate on those who were unfortunate to lose out in the "genetic lottery"? It's not like we get to choose our looks, height, IQ, and dick length at birth, otherwise all guys would be walking around at 6 ft. 5 in., ripped to shreds, looking like Brad Pitt, with 9 in. shlongs.

If two ugly people get together and want to procreate, I say more power to them, it's their lives, and they can't do whatever they want with them. I believe everyone on this earth is entitled to happiness, and yes that includes, the ugly, fat, handicapped, etc.

What's your solution Soup, do you think all ugly people should just do everyone a favor and put a gun to their heads and blow their brain out? That's my point, it's stupid to even start a thread like this, because their is no point to it. There's nothing positive or constructive that can come from it.

Shit, I'm definitely not the most attractive man out there, but I can at least be thankful to be at least average or above average in most categories. I try to remain humble and if anything feel compassion for those less well off than me, whether that be because they were born ugly, poor, had a fucked up family, etc., I can imagine what it would be like to put myself in their shoes, and maybe you should try it too.

You should read the rest of thread because there were some enlightening posts about how this stuff works (for me at least). My first post was with the understanding that there would be a strong connection between parents looks and the child's looks. Apparently, it's much more random than that.

But, to a larger point about having kids.. in general I'm against having kids. If you make a living person suffer against their will, you go to jail. For most people, I believe that life is majority pain and suffering and that the world is getting more fucked up. Putting a potential person in harm's way is just as bad.

As far as knowingly messing with a potential person's life goes, what happens if we take a more extreme example?

If a woman takes drugs while she is pregnant and her baby comes out all fucked up because of it, should she not be held responsible?

Let's say the baby is 2 min out of the woman's body after pregnancy:

If you take an actual baby and shake it until it's brain gets scrambled, should you not be held responsible? You will go to jail, or be killed.

[little wing]

(05-20-2013 03:16 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I pretty much rated it 1 star from the get go, (no offense Soup, you're one of my favorite poster in the game forum). I don't get what the point of this thread is, what's with all the hatred towards ugly and fat people? I understand fat people can at least make an effort to lose weight, but why hate on those who were unfortunate to lose out in the "genetic lottery"? It's not like we get to choose our looks, height, IQ, and dick length at birth, otherwise all guys would be walking around at 6 ft. 5 in., ripped to shreds, looking like Brad Pitt, with 9 in. shlongs.

If two ugly people get together and want to procreate, I say more power to them, it's their lives, and they can't do whatever they want with them. I believe everyone on this earth is entitled to happiness, and yes that includes, the ugly, fat, handicapped, etc.

What's your solution Soup, do you think all ugly people should just do everyone a favor and put a gun to their heads and blow their brain out? That's my point, it's stupid to even start a thread like this, because their is no point to it. There's nothing positive or constructive that can come from it.

Shit, I'm definitely not the most attractive man out there, but I can at least be thankful to be at least average or above average in most categories. I try to remain humble and if anything feel compassion for those less well off than me, whether that be because they were born ugly, poor, had a fucked up family, etc., I can imagine what it would be like to put myself in their shoes, and maybe you should try it too.

[Timoteo]

Two short parents won't necessarily produce a short kid. Various traits can skip generations - you can get your looks or other traits from a relative from a generation prior to your parents. You can get certain traits from both parents that end up looking good in combination in their child.

[ghostdog]

I'm sort of torn about this.
Passing on your genes is a very strange process. People disguise the selfishness of it with the idea that they're doing it for the love of their potential child. It's for YOU though. YOU were thrown into life by two people doing the same thing for themselves as well, and you're inside a vessel that wants to do the same thing. So ugly people will go ahead and mate no matter what. 39 year old women will have their downs syndrome kids.
Is two ugly people mating wrong? What is right or wrong beyond humans? Right and wrong is about your survival. Of course they'll see it as right to live and spread their genes. You will not argue them out of it. Everybody is just tossing whatever genes they can into the pool and hoping their genes come out the winners. That's life.
Your parents don't really care about your well-being. They care about your health because your health means you'll reproduce. If you were born defected, they'd be sad not because of your suffering but because you won't give them little grandkids. If you're gay, they'll be disappointed as well if that means you don't pass on the genes.
Until there is some process that allows them to predict the face of an embryo and select the best one, they're just going to bump uglies with the best person they can get and hope for the best. It doesn't matter to them if the kid goes through some trials and tribulations for being ugly before it finds another ugly person spreads its genes. Spreading the genes is all that matters.

[Kabal]

(05-20-2013 03:50 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 10:49 AM)soup Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 10:43 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Ugly parents != ugly children

I've seen some troll parents with banging daughters and vice versa. It helps, but there's not a whole hell of a lot one can do.

The genetic lottery is a rough one.

Seriously? You've seen hot girls with ugly parents? I find that hard to believe.

I often see this with mixed-race kids. A really attractive mixed chic often has either average or busted parents. Look at Alicia Keys mom:



Inbred people or a group with a stagnant genepool start looking like mutants over generations(which is my theory on ugliness in England) so I guess it stands to reason that mixing has the opposite effect, a hybrid vigor.

I concur that inbreeding depression is deadly to attractiveness (and intelligence), but it doesn't take much unrelatedness to negate inbreeding--even first cousin pairings are not imminently precarious, unless it's recursive (like the infamous Habsburgs, or a lot of areas of the Middle East today).

As for F1 mixed-race girls, I don't think it's hybrid vigor as much as it is selection bias--that is, I do believe there to be some hybrid vigor, but substantial selection bias as well.

For example, up until a few years ago I heavily believed in the notion of hybrid vigor in the attractiveness of half-East Asian half-white girls, as I knew several attractive ones, even though they're rare in general.

Then one day it occurred to me it may be selection bias... but how can I test that? Surely I can see if the half-Asian guys I know are good-looking as well, except... damn I couldn't even think of one I knew off the top of my head.

So it was selection bias--I only remembered and kept in contact with attractive half-Asian girls.

[cardguy]

Half-Asian half-White girls are hot 100% of the time.

I'm convinced.

It's the evolutionary equivalent of up, up, down, down, left, right, right, left, B, A

[soup]

(05-20-2013 07:57 PM)Kabal Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 03:50 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 10:49 AM)soup Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 10:43 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Ugly parents != ugly children

I've seen some troll parents with banging daughters and vice versa. It helps, but there's not a whole hell of a lot one can do.

The genetic lottery is a rough one.

Seriously? You've seen hot girls with ugly parents? I find that hard to believe.

I often see this with mixed-race kids. A really attractive mixed chic often has either average or busted parents. Look at Alicia Keys mom:



Inbred people or a group with a stagnant genepool start looking like mutants over generations(which is my theory on ugliness in England) so I guess it stands to reason that mixing has the opposite effect, a hybrid vigor.

I concur that inbreeding depression is deadly to attractiveness (and intelligence), but it doesn't take much unrelatedness to negate inbreeding--even first cousin pairings are not imminently precarious, unless it's recursive (like the infamous Habsburgs, or a lot of areas of the Middle East today).

As for F1 mixed-race girls, I don't think it's hybrid vigor as much as it is selection bias--that is, I do believe there to be some hybrid vigor, but substantial selection bias as well.

For example, up until a few years ago I heavily believed in the notion of hybrid vigor in the attractiveness of half-East Asian half-white girls, as I knew several attractive ones, even though they're rare in general.

Then one day it occurred to me it may be selection bias... but how can I test that? Surely I can see if the half-Asian guys I know are good-looking as well, except... damn I couldn't even think of one I knew off the top of my head.

So it was selection bias--I only remembered and kept in contact with attractive half-Asian girls.

She might age badly, but I think she has more "black don' crack" genes to counter her doopy/pasty/white/fatso genes.