[Tex Pro]

Searched the forum, and didn't find anything about this.

Since there there are a lot of brits on this forum, I was wondering what your ideas are on the Scottish Independence Movement.

If people need info about it, here is the wiki page on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence

The vote for independence will held next year on September 18, 2014.

How likely do you think it is to happen? What is the sentiment inside Britain about this?

[cardguy]

Scotland will never vote to leave Britain. Not in a million years. They are like the 12 year old kid brother threatening to run away from home.

Would be fun if they did leave since it would mean the Conservatives would win the elections in England for the next thousand years. England has always voted for the Tories.

[Tex Pro]

(05-19-2013 03:57 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

Scotland will never vote to leave Britain. Not in a million years. They are like the 12 year old kid brother threatening to run away from home.

Would be fun if they did leave since it would mean the Conservatives would win the elections in England for the next thousand years. England has always voted for the Tories.

So what is this about then? Why go to all the trouble of holding a vote?

I am not that familiar with British politics, but don't the Scots already have a Scottish parliament?

[Mike_Doe]

I think they've watched Braveheart just a few too many times.

[CarCrashKid]

I'd be on the opposing side in the debate. As a Irish Republican myself, I think many would want to leave and would hope they would leave.

However, I would be unsure if it would be a huge majority of people.
The current economic situation would be a huge deterrent to leaving now, they should have pushed this through maybe 7 to 9 years ago when things were going better and Europe had literally no problems and yet still pumping money into Scotland.

[Teedub]

I was fairly indfferent about it, but after this happened, I have the following view. If they leave the UK, and want to be part of the E.U's iron grip, when the UK actually leaves the E.U then fuck 'em and let them do it. Regardless, Scotland, as cardguy said, would be completely retarded to leave the UK - as the benefits they get are enormous. They get free university when the English have to pay etc. Same with prescriptions. I have a few Scottish mates, top guys, but these freebies are unacceptable. Especially when the recipients are so hostile.

Then, I was even more angry with the BBC (Blatantly Biased Corporation) doing this dreadful interview with Farage. I would have lost my rag too:

[Wreckingball]

This might be relevant...
German Band, Sings in English about Scottish struggle for Independence:

[misello]

(05-19-2013 04:06 PM)CarCrashKid Wrote:  

I'd be on the opposing side in the debate. As a Irish Republican myself, I think many would want to leave and would hope they would leave.

However, I would be unsure if it would be a huge majority of people.
The current economic situation would be a huge deterrent to leaving now, they should have pushed this through maybe 7 to 9 years ago when things were going better and Europe had literally no problems and yet still pumping money into Scotland.

How about Northern Ireland? Any chance of a united Ireland or is that never gonna happen? Looking at history I sympathize for the Catholics there, however when I meet young people from Northern Ireland they dont seem to care too much.

[Tex Pro]

(05-19-2013 04:12 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

I was fairly indfferent about it, but after this happened, I have the following view. If they leave the UK, and want to be part of the E.U's iron grip, when the UK actually leaves the E.U then fuck 'em and let them do it. Regardless, Scotland, as cardguy said, would be completely retarded to leave the UK - as the benefits they get are enormous. They get free university when the English have to pay etc. Same with prescriptions. I have a few Scottish mates, top guys, but these freebies are unacceptable. Especially when the recipients are so hostile.

Then, I was even more angry with the BBC (Blatantly Biased Corporation) doing this dreadful interview with Farage. I would have lost my rag too:

^Watched those vids, the Scots got nasty with Farage (looked like they were seconds away from coming to blows).

[cardguy]

Scotland would have being bankrupt if England hadn't bailed them out after the 2008 financial crash.

Indeed- the only reason Scotland joined the UK in the first place was after going bankrupt 300 years earlier - after trying to set up a trading colony in Panama.

The Referendum has come about because the most canny politician in Scotland - Alec Salmond - has slowly come to power over the past decade. The Scottish Parliament was a sop thrown to the nationalists in Scotland - in order to keep them in the UK. But it has backfired as the Nationalist vote has risen (due to non-Nationalist reasons). As such - Salmond is now in power and can directly ask for a Referendum.

Cameron agreed to this. Possibly because he secretly wants Scotland out of the UK - so that the Tories will stay in power forever. But more likely he has agreed to it so that his term as Prime Minister can end with him winning the Referendum and claiming that 'saving the UK' is part of his legacy.

All Prime Ministers want a 'legacy' they can be remembered by. And Cameron's will be this. Along with a possible referendum on staying in the EU (which he will campaign to keep England in).

There is alot of bluster from Scotland about wanting to leave the UK. And I don't believe it.

Equally - there is alot of bluster about the UK leaving the EU. But again - I don't think it will ever happen (even though I would like it to).

The thing about Scotland is that it is subsidised by the English thanks to the Barnett Formula. As such - the standard of living will decline if they leave the UK.

Also - there is no sense of risk taking and entrepeneurialism in Scotland. It was at the leading edge of the Industrial Revolution 200 years ago. But that has drifted away now. All the talented Scots leave the country to seek their fortune elsewhere. And that includes Sean Connery. As such - there is no real dynamism left in the country. The same could be said for alot of England as well - except that London makes up for alot of that.

In Scotland it is a pretty depressing place to be - apart from Glasgow and Edinburgh. But - Edinburgh in particular is a place where the majority of people are not even Scottish.

Also it is interesting to note that there are no Scottish billionaires right now. I always find that quite revealing.

I live 70 miles from Scotland - and have taken nearly all my holidays there. And was at University in Edinburgh. So - I have a pretty good feel for the place.

Still - it is a difficult issue to analyse. Since most Scots feel they would have being fine if they had kept the oil that the English found in the North Sea for themselves. Possibly. But it is too late now.

Scotland was feeling pretty prosperous 4 years ago. But - that was just a banking bubble. And the SNP were made to look foolish with their talk of 'an Arc of Prosperity'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/articl...aster.html

In hindsight - that one speech was the final nail in the coffin of any dreams for Scottish independence.

Cardguy

PS I expect we will hear from this lot when Scotland again (as 34 years ago) votes to stay in the UK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Na...ation_Army

[CarCrashKid]

(05-19-2013 04:15 PM)misello Wrote:  

How about Northern Ireland? Any chance of a united Ireland or is that never gonna happen? Looking at history I sympathize for the Catholics there, however when I meet young people from Northern Ireland they dont seem to care too much.

I'm in the Republican and I would like a United Ireland.
However, it's a bloody affair through and through.

If keeping the peace and people alive means that the UK controls the North, so be it.

I could say that the Unionists consider the Irish a different breed of human and tend to taunt the Irish. They celebrate the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne every year and hold parades attempting to taunt the Nationalists out. Obviously they don't state this but it's obvious.

They held a parade in Dublin a few years ago and a riot ensued.
They then went about blaming the Police force for not "protecting" them.
It's best I leave it at that.

[cardguy]

I had some great fun once. I was telling a Scottish friend of mine that I was delighted when Scotland beat England in any sporting event.

The defining characteristic of the English is to want the plucky underdog to win. And for me - that included when Scotland played the English. It honestly delights me when Scotland get one over on us. In the same way it would be if you had an overweight younger brother, who was being bullied at school and who you were worried about.

Letting him win the occasional game of scrabble is just being nice.

I have never seen my friend look so annoyed when he realised that even when Scotland win. They lose.

Sad but true.

Nothing is funnier than upsetting someone when you are trying to be nice!

[Tex Pro]

(05-19-2013 04:13 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

This might be relevant...
German Band, Sings in English about Scottish struggle for Independence:

^I have always loved the sound of Scottish/Irish bagpipes. Very majestic.

In the USA, they are usually played at cops or firefighters funerals since so many cops/firefighters are Scots-Irish.

[cardguy]

My Dad thinks we should go back to the pre-1922 arrangement in Ireland. As such Ireland would join up with the rest of the UK.

It is funny but I have never heard anyone say that before. Even though it seems a valid opinion to hold. This suggests that people just 'pick a side' in political debates. Instead of considering all possibilities in a fair and rational manner.

I think the british and the Irish should set aside their differences and realise that alot more unites us than separates us. Throughout the past thousand years - the people of England have being opressed by their leaders just as much as the people of Ireland.

People take Irish indepence seriously. Which is fair enough. But then why do those same people laugh at Cornish independence?

Still - the people of England don't care. We don't have a national anthem. And we don't have a national parliament. So - we obviously don't give two shits for the sorts of questions that other people kill each other over...

I don't support dying for other people's causes.

G'n'R summed it up best for me...

[CarCrashKid]

Can I ask why he would see Ireland back with the UK?

People take Irish Independence seriously because a lot of men died for it and yet succeeded in their goal.

[Tex Pro]

(05-19-2013 04:44 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

My Dad thinks we should go back to the pre-1922 arrangement in Ireland. As such Ireland would join up with the rest of the UK.

It is funny but I have never heard anyone say that before. Even though it seems a valid opinion to hold. This suggests that people just 'pick a side' in political debates. Instead of considering all possibilities in a fair and rational manner.

I think the british and the Irish should set aside their differences and realise that alot more unites us than separates us. Throughout the past thousand years - the people of England have being opressed by their leaders just as much as the people of Ireland.

People take Irish indepence seriously. Which is fair enough. But then why do those same people laugh at Cornish independence?

Still - the people of England don't care. We don't have a national anthem. And we don't have a national parliament. So - we obviously don't give two shits for the sorts of questions that other people kill each other over...

I don't support dying for other people's causes.

G'n'R summed it up best for me...

What is interesting is how the provisional IRA has stopped being so radical.

A couple of decades ago, they were some tough mofo's.

[cardguy]

Alot of people dying for something is not important to me.

Alot of people died trying to help Hitler conquer Europe. It is irelevent to whether or not it is a good idea.

I support democracy. So - if the majority of people want Independence then go right ahead.

But - I still feel it to be the case that the differences that the Irish see between themselves and the British is a hell of alot more than the differences which the British see between themselves and the Irish.

Hell - half the people in England have Irish blood. I was once asked myself (to give one example) if I wanted an Irish passport. But turned it down since it is a meaningless distinction (to me). Alot of Irish culture is baloney. Like the reverence for James Joyce. Who is a crap writer, who nobody reads (unless they are being paid to do i or are going to be tested on it) and who spent his whole adult life living in Europe.

And to finish. It was interesting to see that for all the talk of Independence and 'Irish identity' - there was no country more enthusiastic about selling themselves to the EU than Ireland (at least until the crisis of 2008). To me it makes a mockery of the whole thing.

I am technically 'half-Irish' myself. So don't take any of this the wrong way. I have nothing but peace and love for all members of the human race :-)

[CarCrashKid]

You failed to answer my question and seem annoyed at my statement.

Why does your Father believe the Republic should re-join the UK?
I simply would like to understand his perspective.

[cardguy]

Sorry - my father thinks Ireland should be in the UK. Because there is no reason for it not to be.

If a foreigner visited France and England. They would clearly see it was two different nations.

If they visited America (or Austrailia) and England they would feel it was two different nations.

But if you visit Ireland and then England. It is hard to figure out how they are not part of the same nation. To me if you think Scotland should be part of the UK. Then logically you should think the same about Ireland. Since there isn't much to separate them in terms of the 'differences' between themselves and the English.

But of course. I support the people's will. But just because a position has popular support doesn't mean it makes logical sense. If England suddenly voted to be part of China - would that make us all Chinese?

[CarCrashKid]

My friend!

The difference between our two nations is as clear as day!

On one side we have a nation that has two national languages, is a Republic and has lost much of it's culture due to something.
The other is a nation with one national language, swears allegiance to a Family and whose culture was changed by it's Empire.

[cardguy]

You might be right. But I am not sure if it is clear to the Irish, that the Royal Family is a joke in England. It is like an episode of The Kardashians which has being going on for a thousand years. The Unionists in Northern Ireland tend to exagerrate their 'British identity' in order to provide cover for their political goals. As such there is a big difference between your average Unionist and your average Englishman.

Due to the Empire - there has being massive waves of immigration into England over the past 40 years. So - that is a big difference between England and Ireland as well. For now - although there has being alot of East European immigration into Ireland over the past decade.

Still - the debate is largely irrelevent since culturally we have all lived under America's empire for the past 50 years. And I welcome our rulers to our land, and hope they will treat our people with kindness :-)

[CarCrashKid]

I could blame the British for the US too but I know that it our "black sheep of the family".

[Aliblahba]

(05-19-2013 05:31 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

Still - the debate is largely irrelevent since culturally we are have all lived under America's empire for the past 50 years. And I welcome our rulers to our land, and hope they will treat our people with kindness :-)

We enjoy coming over to bang your women and drink all your Old Speckled Hen. Thank you.

[cardguy]

Just curious. How come McGuinness and Paisley became such good friends? I never really got to the bottom of that. Seemed like the politics had moved on, they had calmed down with age and realised they were quite similar people on a personal level (eg very religious).

Or were they keen to show how well they got along in order to help the peace process?

I am guessing it is all of the above. But would be interested to hear if I have missed anything else.

[cardguy]

Cheers, Alibaha!

Apparently Newcastle Brown Ale is very popular in America as well. Interestingly it hasn't actually being made in Newcastle for the past few years.

Still - a neat thing about Newcadtle Brown Ale is that print a black border around the label whenever the Newcastle football team are relegated. And the black border remains until they are promoted again to the top division.