[Super Etoile]

(05-19-2013 03:57 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

Would be fun if they did leave since it would mean the Conservatives would win the elections in England for the next thousand years. England has always voted for the Tories.

In every election since WWII that Labour has won (and one that they lost), they got either more seats, more votes or both in England than the Tories - except February 1974 (but let's face it no-one won then).

If Labour win in 2015 the same will be true.

[cardguy]

You are correct.

I am thinking more in terms of England as a separate nation. So - got a bit carried away there...

Once you kick out Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales - The Conservatives would win every general election held in England.

[cardguy]

Sorry - I misunderstood your response.

I was always under the impression that the Tories were kept out of power because of the other nations in the UK. But since you say otherwise I will have to look into this.

Just trying to find the relevent statistics just now.

[cardguy]

Okay - looked up the statistics - and you are correct good man! Wow - I need to go away and do some thinking. This is a bit of a paradigm shift for me!

Here are the figures I found - see page 11 of the following document - http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commo...03-059.pdf

Lastly - the figures above don't include 2005. Yet - in 2005 - more people in England really did vote Tory than Labour.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/200...ection.htm

Quote:

The result gave Labour a Parliamentary majority of 66. It also produced some interesting statistics:

Labour's percentage of votes - at 36% (down by 5% from 2001) - is the lowest any winning party has ever achieved.

More people voted for the Conservatives in England than for Labour - but the Conservatives won 92 seats less than Labour within England (285 to 193). The Conservatives received 60,000 more votes than Labour in England.

So - I must have muddled things up. I always remembered that more people in England voted Tory than Labour in 2005. And it always stuck in my mind that more voters (across the UK) voted for John Major in 1992 - than did for Tony Blair in 1997. Despite the fact that Tony Blair ended up with a majority of about 150 seats over that of John Major in 1992.

Anyway - thanks alot for correcting me on the main point above. That is a big error I have being perpetuating for a long time!

[Matt Forney]

The talk about how insolvent an independent Scotland would be reminds me of how an independent Quebec would have the same problem: the provincial government is so deep in debt that were they to somehow secede from Canada, they would have to declare bankruptcy five minutes later. That factoid alone will probably keep Scots from wanting to leave the U.K.; the European economy is in bad enough shape, and everyone can already see how the banksters have been treating Greece, Ireland and every other country that's deep in debt.

[bojangles]

It's a stupid debate and the Scots won't vote for it, nevermind that 2 of the 4 big bailouts in the UK were for the 2 largest scottish banks RBS and HBOS(consumed by Lloyds)

[POHammer]

(05-19-2013 04:12 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

If they leave the UK, and want to be part of the E.U's iron grip, when the UK actually leaves the E.U then fuck 'em and let them do it

lol. Business class is pro-EU, and its the business class who rules.
UK is firmly within EUs grasp.

[Teedub]

(05-20-2013 07:17 AM)POHammer Wrote:  

(05-19-2013 04:12 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

If they leave the UK, and want to be part of the E.U's iron grip, when the UK actually leaves the E.U then fuck 'em and let them do it

lol. Business class is pro-EU, and its the business class who rules.
UK is firmly within EUs grasp.

Not really, many of the business people I know hate the EU due to the red tape etc. BIG business likes it though, due to cheap labour etc...that's where the problem is. The EU is going to collapse, I just worry what will happen when it does. There's a whole lot of problems heading to Europe, and the Scotland issue is absolutely minor in comparison.

[bojangles]

I'm happy staying in the EU. The benefits to UK business outweigh the cons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22591785

On the 2 scottish banks, interesting article.

[POHammer]

(05-20-2013 07:33 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(05-20-2013 07:17 AM)POHammer Wrote:  

(05-19-2013 04:12 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

If they leave the UK, and want to be part of the E.U's iron grip, when the UK actually leaves the E.U then fuck 'em and let them do it

lol. Business class is pro-EU, and its the business class who rules.


UK is firmly within EUs grasp.

Not really, many of the business people I know hate the EU due to the red tape etc. BIG business likes it though, due to cheap labour etc...that's where the problem is. The EU is going to collapse, I just worry what will happen when it does. There's a whole lot of problems heading to Europe, and the Scotland issue is absolutely minor in comparison.

Yup, and big business is who has the say. Richard Branson is very pro EU.

I see EU consolidating power and taking away more sovereignty. EU will end up a stronger economy, but a shitty place to live.

[CarCrashKid]

No idea that McGuinneas and Paisley were friends!

Maybe 20 years ago they would have loved the idea that the other one was dead.
Respect between men, I'd say. Both have huge respect for the other and probably had to work towards some goal together.

[cardguy]

Yeah - Paisley and McGuinness are known as 'the chuckle brothers' in Northern Ireland:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7083818.stm

Also - to add to other some points I raised (and was corrected on) earlier in this thread.

The Tories would have won in 2005 and 2010 if it had just being an election just held in England.

Earlier - I only mentioned 2005. And forgot about 2010.

Still - I was mostly wrong in my analysis (as regards Tory and Labour voting in England), and I thank Super Etoile for setting me straight.

[Aliblahba]

You Brits owe me 2 crates of tea and 1 barrel of ale. Pay up or I'll invade.

[cardguy]

Any Scots on the board?

Do you think Scotland will vote for independence?

I think it is impossible.

Indeed - it is funny that the referendum is taking place at a time when the majority of people in England want Scotland to leave - and the majority of people in Scotland want to stay.

Also - quick question about Scottish people. Why are so many of them dour?

Being dour is the worse personality trait to have. To be pemeanently grumpy for the sake of grumpy is like having a cancer in your personality.

I work with a Scottish lady who retires in two weeks time.

And I cannot wait.

She looks like Rab C Nesbitt - and is the most miserable person I have ever met. I get on well with her - but she seems incapable of actually enjoying life.

Is this common in Scotland? I have a Scottish surname myself - so I have Scottish blood in me I guess. So no hate intended! :-)

[Caledonian]

I don't think it will happen personally because there is no great obvious benefit to leaving the UK in such a globalised world. There are too many other considerations for it to be a significant move now - possibly the period of time before the discovery of North Sea oil would have been the best time to go it alone.

With that being said it is amusing how many of the English are brainwashed into thinking that Scots live a life of luxury at their expense, with rubbish statistics based on flawed formulae and often outright lies. Scotland would also be absolutely fine if we voted for independence. There would be no financial meltdown, nor would all plant life wither away and die, and neither would the howls of doomed men, women and children be heard in the air for all eternity. Any gaps in the market left by businesses upping sticks for elsewhere would quickly be filled by other opportunistic businesses.

Most probably, the reason dodgy Dave and the Tories want to keep us in the UK is that we have nearly a quarter of the EU's entire renewable energy capacity. Follow the money with these characters and you are rarely far from the truth.

Ultimately I don't really care about the economics - it should come down to identity and what we feel. Personally I am happy being both Scottish and British, and I don't consider the two mutually exclusive. Others may feel different. As I live in England I won't be getting the vote, so I'll have to just watch from afar and see what happens.

[davyjose]

(05-19-2013 04:35 PM)CarCrashKid Wrote:  

(05-19-2013 04:15 PM)misello Wrote:  

How about Northern Ireland? Any chance of a united Ireland or is that never gonna happen? Looking at history I sympathize for the Catholics there, however when I meet young people from Northern Ireland they dont seem to care too much.

I'm in the Republican and I would like a United Ireland.
However, it's a bloody affair through and through.

If keeping the peace and people alive means that the UK controls the North, so be it.

I could say that the Unionists consider the Irish a different breed of human and tend to taunt the Irish. They celebrate the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne every year and hold parades attempting to taunt the Nationalists out. Obviously they don't state this but it's obvious.

They held a parade in Dublin a few years ago and a riot ensued.
They then went about blaming the Police force for not "protecting" them.
It's best I leave it at that.

Pretty accurate description of Loyalism/Unionism. One only needs to look at the Holy Cross protests a few years ago to demonstrate what kind of people we're talking about..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_dispute

Or visit any area of the North when the 12th July "celebrations" are in full swing.
It's not uncommon to see green, white and gold tricolours flying on top of bonfires with the initials KAT on them (Kill All Taigs, a Loyalist pejorative for Catholics/Nationalists)

What's ironic is that these knuckleheads don't realise that the Irish flag symbolises peace between Catholics(green) and Protestants(Orange).

The above completely destroy the erroneous notion that Republicanism and Loyalism are "two sides of the same shitty coin", as is often said.

On the Scottish question, the Scots should have the bravery to go their own way.
As a Republican myself I despise the idea of a bunch of worthless freeloading scum (aka the British Monarchy) having any say over the running of a country, however ceremonial and small.

For that reason, and also I hope it would quicken Northern Ireland's exit from the UK, I hope to see Scottish Independence, but I fear the Scottish electorate will play it safe and stay within the UK.

[cardguy]

Back in 1979 - Scotland voted against devolution.

As a result of this the Scottish National Liberation Army were formed - they claimed the election was fixed.

They have being pretty active.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_N...ation_Army

[davyjose]

(05-16-2014 01:28 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

Back in 1979 - Scotland voted against devolution.

As a result of this the Scottish National Liberation Army were formed who claimed the election was fixed.

They have being pretty active.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_N...ation_Army

The Tartan Terrors eh? For some reason all I can picture is Graham Souness breaking opponents legs and Gordon Strachan marauding down the wing..

[Haig]

Hey,

I personally think that Scotland will get its "Independence" from the UK in September as Alex Salmond is very much a cult like personality here. He has an almost undying support from (in my opinion) from the majority of the working class Scots as he has basically bribed them with a glorious benefit systems (free medical prescriptions and Methadone which the old folk and junkies love) which is paid for out of the UK tax system.

Scotland is a very Left Wing country and has a real "oppressed" or "wee man" mentality to the rest of the World which plays again into the hand of the SNP as the tactics that this political party uses is very rabble rousing and emotive based.

Bearing in mind that Scotland has a population of 5 Million (with a a high percentage of elderly and disabled/not fit to work) this country will not be able to sustain itself financially as businesses will not come to Scotland as Socialist policies will tax them to high heaven so I think that the only revenue that will come in is from the EU (Which Scotland will join as soon as it leaves the UK)

The only resistance I see from this is from certain neighborhoods in Edinburgh (Where I'm from) and Glasgow, as there is a hell of a lot of "Old money" that still reside in these cities.

My personal opinion is that I really don't want independence as I see it is a very slippery slope towards losing real national identity and being swallowed up the the ever growing monster that is the EU/UN.

If anyone has questions about it, feel free to ask me.

Cheers

Haig

[cardguy]

Hey Haig,

I spent a year living in Edinburgh. It is my favourite place on Earth. I am not sure if I will ever live there again - since I love it so much I quite like keeping it as my own personal "Rosebud" that I can think about and fantasize about.

Still - I imagine I will end up living there when I am a lot older.

But I am curious if you think being 'dour' is a common thing with Scottish people? I work with a lady from Glasgow - and she is just sooo' bad. She is almost a parody of herself.

Anyway - just curious what you think? Also - how do you rate Scottish chicks? Again - I didn't think too much of them.

Like I say I am part Scottish myself - and live close to the border. So - I am not trying to pick a fight. Just asking some real questions.

[Haig]

Hey Cardguy,

Nice Orson wells reference there! Edinburgh is a beautiful City, I absolutely love it, don't care for much of the people though as you say there is a real apathy and "dourness" to the majority of people. One of the reasons why I think that is the case is to do with what I mentioned earlier "wee man" syndrome and also the romantic nature of being the underdog (I know that sounds like a weird thing to say but you'll understand that term if you spend any real time in Scotland).

I actually play up my "dourness" in order to fit in as if I showed any real confidence in my abilities and opinions they would do a "Farage" on me.

Scottish "Lassies" on the whole are mental and unstable. There is a real masculinity to them. A lot of the so called "WAGS" that go drinking on George Street (For anyone who doesn't know Edinburgh, George Street has all the "posh" bars and clubs where footballers and rugby players hang out) end up brawling on the streets with stiletto heels sticking out of their heads.

If (big if)you do manage to find a good Scottish woman, you have to look at the ones who were privately educated as they may have a had a strong fatherly influence on them.

[cardguy]

This should be the SNP party broadcast for the election.

And thanks for the response Haig. I love Edinburgh - but hate it during the festival. I much prefer it during the Autumn and Winter.

[Haig]

Hey,

If the SNP did use that as a political broadcast they would win by a landslide.

But I don't think anyone would want to watch the lust for life video with Alec Salmond as Iggy Pop though.

[cardguy]

When you have an amazing year in a city - but then all your friends leave that city. It is really hard to figure out if you should return.

For now - I haven't. Although I have visited a few times (since one of my friends is still there - a chick by the way!).

One thing I love about Edinurgh is the smell of the hops from the breweries that spread over the old town in the evening.

I feel like Proust with his 'petites madeleines' when I smell those hops...

[Haig]

Yeah the Breweries near Murrayfield stadium is such a distinct smell and you almost take it for granted when you don't get a whiff.

Edinburgh is a completely unique City, and has such a interesting, dark and ancient history to it that gives it all the more character.

To be honest, most Scottish folk don't appreciate the beauty that we have.