[michelin]

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/06/03/...adise.html

Swimming pools, poosy, cannabis & oyster parties...all that and more in a prison on Isla Margarita.

The result of Chavez and chavismo?

Any thoughts?

[liberman]

You should read The Cocaine Diaries to find out how a gringo would be treated in a Venezuela prison.

[kdolo]

(04-13-2013 04:31 AM)michelin Wrote:  

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/06/03/...adise.html

Swimming pools, poosy, cannabis & oyster parties...all that and more in a prison on Isla Margarita.

The result of Chavez and chavismo?

Any thoughts?

This is wonderful and a true example of what a prison should be.

Prison should exist merely to separate from society those who are dangerous to citizens. According to Common Law tradition, imprisonment was NOT used as punishment for a crime - merely to remove the seriously dangerous: murderers, rapists, crazies, major political threats.

By treating the prisoners as humans and not animals, the violence level and costs needed to maintain the system fall dramatically.
Prisons here probably produce more damaged individuals than initially entered.

This has nothing to do with Chavismo, but rather demonstrative of a cultural difference.

New World Spanish v. Anglo Saxon cultural systems....

[Ovid]

The problem is, there has to be a deterrence factor. If prisons are pleasant, then people who are down and out with nothing will commit crimes, just so they can go to prison and have food, medical care, and a clean, even luxurious standard of living compared to what they formerly had. In the middle ages, governments' jails were so unpleasant that it was common for prisoners to say some blasphemy or heresy, so that they would be transferred to the Inquisition's separate jails, which were nicer.

[Samseau]

(04-13-2013 11:32 AM)kdolo Wrote:  

(04-13-2013 04:31 AM)michelin Wrote:  

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/06/03/...adise.html

Swimming pools, poosy, cannabis & oyster parties...all that and more in a prison on Isla Margarita.

The result of Chavez and chavismo?

Any thoughts?

This is wonderful and a true example of what a prison should be.

Prison should exist merely to separate from society those who are dangerous to citizens. According to Common Law tradition, imprisonment was NOT used as punishment for a crime - merely to remove the seriously dangerous: murderers, rapists, crazies, major political threats.

By treating the prisoners as humans and not animals, the violence level and costs needed to maintain the system fall dramatically.
Prisons here probably produce more damaged individuals than initially entered.

This has nothing to do with Chavismo, but rather demonstrative of a cultural difference.

New World Spanish v. Anglo Saxon cultural systems....

Why be anything besides a criminal if the punishment is non-stop sex, drugs, and partying?

[Basil Ransom]

(04-13-2013 01:36 PM)Ovid Wrote:  

The problem is, there has to be a deterrence factor. If prisons are pleasant, then people who are down and out with nothing will commit crimes, just so they can go to prison and have food, medical care, and a clean, even luxurious standard of living compared to what they formerly had. In the middle ages, governments' jails were so unpleasant that it was common for prisoners to say some blasphemy or heresy, so that they would be transferred to the Inquisition's separate jails, which were nicer.

What if prisons are just a way to separate the criminal from the peaceful? The size of the deterrence factor would fade away if sentences were lengthened. Most people in prison are not their for their first time. Among criminologists, it's become common sense that keeping criminals off the streets lowers the crime rate, but this used to be a controversial idea, despite sounding self-evidently true, and only the conservative criminologists defended it. (I think James Q. Wilson was a leading advocate of this idea.)

Or you could have a two tiered system - one where life is pleasant, but the sentences are very long, even until death. And the other, where life is grimmer but sentences are shorter.

Edit: Didn't see kdolo said something similar.

Quote:

Why be anything besides a criminal if the punishment is non-stop sex, drugs, and partying?

Sure, some would find that logic compelling. And the sooner you separate them from society, the better off they and society will be. If you offer them the chance to live in a prison paradise before they do something really bad like murder, they might migrate there of their own accord. Plus, you'd probably try to figure out how to make the prisoners earn their keep, eg by giving them some valuable menial labor.

I don't have a firm opinion on the matter, I'm just saying don't just consider it from the viewpoint of "these people are evil, they must be punished" [and I'm really not disputing that they are evil]. Instead, it's "how can we promote an orderly, peaceful, economical society."

[kdolo]

(04-13-2013 01:36 PM)Ovid Wrote:  

The problem is, there has to be a deterrence factor. If prisons are pleasant, then people who are down and out with nothing will commit crimes, just so they can go to prison and have food, medical care, and a clean, even luxurious standard of living compared to what they formerly had. In the middle ages, governments' jails were so unpleasant that it was common for prisoners to say some blasphemy or heresy, so that they would be transferred to the Inquisition's separate jails, which were nicer.

Based on the fact that we have largest prison population in the world by far means pretty much that prison is not much of a deterrent...

Furthermore, plenty of people in fact do use prison to get 3 sqaures, a cot, and medical care already.

And, most 'crimes' for which people are imprisoned are in fact not really crimes - i.e. using/consumming/selling naturally occurring plants and mind altering substances in relatively small quantities

[Screwston]

The only thing that would happen if American prisons were like this is a lot more regular guys wouldn't think twice about committing serious crimes. Guys go to JAIL if they're living on the streets, can't get any money coming in and feel helpless. They commit a stupid misdemeanor. There's a big difference between sitting in jail for a few months and going to a penitentiary for years.

[billy]

Margarita island is unique Mainly due to the unrivalled power of the only gang In there and it's leader. Guns and gang wars are a feature of most venezuelan prisons and from the stories I have read they are some of the worst prisons in the world. Two English guys got sent to one and wrote a book, it's a story of real survival and well worth a read.

[speakeasy]

(04-13-2013 04:31 AM)michelin Wrote:  

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/06/03/...adise.html

Swimming pools, poosy, cannabis & oyster parties...all that and more in a prison on Isla Margarita.

Sounds like living in a college dorm, but without having to go to class.

Fuck that. Prison should be hell on earth. That's why I like Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He puts these scumbags out in tent camps in the Arizona desert and feeds them nothing but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Prison SHOULD be tough and miserable and a place you can't fathom living in.

[kdolo]

"Fuck that. Prison should be hell on earth. That's why I like Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He puts these scumbags out in tent camps in the Arizona desert and feeds them nothing but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Prison SHOULD be tough and miserable and a place you can't fathom living in."
[/quote]

I disagree. Historically - going back to the Common Law, prison is to protect the community by removing serious threats: habitual murderers, rapists, crazies, major political threats.

Removal of these people from society IS their punishment. To make prison "hell on earth" only serves to satisfy your sadistic and unjust desires to pile continual punishment upon severe punishment already meted out: removal from society.

If Arpaio really treats inmates this way, then he is a sadist and potential sociopath. People associated with those types of professions tend to score high on these tendencies (law enforcement/corrections/military) - they get off on inflicting suffering on those whom justice and punishment has already been meted.

Remember, most "scumbags" in jail are actually not at all. Most are jail for things that are not even crimes going back to Common Law and/or are violations to our Constitution

1. violating sumptuary laws - consuming, selling relatively minor quantities of natural plants and their derivatives.

2. Debtors: men who owe and can't pay child support OR taxes

3. people held for "conspiracy to .....(fill in crime) -" simply talking about and planning a crime cannot be a crime because there is no victim - no bad act - only thoughts and talking both of which are protected by the first amendment.

4. Violators of codes/laws where such violations are not violent and pose no-little threat to human life and property: immigration.

5. Possession of firearms without proper: permit/license/registration/ - or concealed where not allowed etc. - all restrictions - of which are illegal under Common Law - and the Constitution - the 2nd amendment places no such restriction on firearm use and expressly forbids any 'infringement'.

So, many of these "scumbags" you are talking about are actually regular normal people who do no deserve to be placed into 'living hell' - further punishment upon their first punishment - (removal from society) for crimes - which in fact should may not be crimes at all.

[le prince perdu]

(04-14-2013 08:48 PM)kdolo Wrote:  

"Fuck that. Prison should be hell on earth. That's why I like Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He puts these scumbags out in tent camps in the Arizona desert and feeds them nothing but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Prison SHOULD be tough and miserable and a place you can't fathom living in."

I disagree. Historically - going back to the Common Law, prison is to protect the community by removing serious threats: habitual murderers, rapists, crazies, major political threats.

Removal of these people from society IS their punishment. To make prison "hell on earth" only serves to satisfy your sadistic and unjust desires to pile continual punishment upon severe punishment already meted out: removal from society.

If Arpaio really treats inmates this way, then he is a sadist and potential sociopath. People associated with those types of professions tend to score high on these tendencies (law enforcement/corrections/military) - they get off on inflicting suffering on those whom justice and punishment has already been meted.

Remember, most "scumbags" in jail are actually not at all. Most are jail for things that are not even crimes going back to Common Law and/or are violations to our Constitution

1. violating sumptuary laws - consuming, selling relatively minor quantities of natural plants and their derivatives.

2. Debtors: men who owe and can't pay child support OR taxes

3. people held for "conspiracy to .....(fill in crime) -" simply talking about and planning a crime cannot be a crime because there is no victim - no bad act - only thoughts and talking both of which are protected by the first amendment.

4. Violators of codes/laws where such violations are not violent and pose no-little threat to human life and property: immigration.

5. Possession of firearms without proper: permit/license/registration/ - or concealed where not allowed etc. - all restrictions - of which are illegal under Common Law - and the Constitution - the 2nd amendment places no such restriction on firearm use and expressly forbids any 'infringement'.

So, many of these "scumbags" you are talking about are actually regular normal people who do no deserve to be placed into 'living hell' - further punishment upon their first punishment - (removal from society) for crimes - which in fact should may not be crimes at all.
[/quote]

This.
There is no logic behind making a prisoner suffer, all the officers trying to make it "hell" for the inmates probably have some sort of mental issues.

If the guy is a murderer than he should be killed, but thieves, rapist, drug dealers, and all the rest are just regular dudes.

They have already been removed from society, they can't enjoy going to bars, hanging out with families, pick up hot bitches and all the goodies that come with being part of society.

Guys in prison are already punished just by being there, we should let the niggas smoke some weed have a nice beer and fuck hookers.

I don't know what it feels like to be locked up in a room for years with no pun but man, it must be horrible.

[thegmanifesto]

(04-14-2013 02:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(04-13-2013 04:31 AM)michelin Wrote:  

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/06/03/...adise.html

Swimming pools, poosy, cannabis & oyster parties...all that and more in a prison on Isla Margarita.

Sounds like living in a college dorm, but without having to go to class.

Fuck that. Prison should be hell on earth. That's why I like Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He puts these scumbags out in tent camps in the Arizona desert and feeds them nothing but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Prison SHOULD be tough and miserable and a place you can't fathom living in.

Really?

Just for a weed charge?

[scotian]

(04-14-2013 02:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(04-13-2013 04:31 AM)michelin Wrote:  

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/06/03/...adise.html

Swimming pools, poosy, cannabis & oyster parties...all that and more in a prison on Isla Margarita.

Sounds like living in a college dorm, but without having to go to class.

Fuck that. Prison should be hell on earth. That's why I like Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He puts these scumbags out in tent camps in the Arizona desert and feeds them nothing but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Prison SHOULD be tough and miserable and a place you can't fathom living in.

I don't want to derail this into some USA justice system versus the rest of the world but this is one issue that I don't agree with stateside, locking guys up for so long and often in such crowded jails and prisons.

If you look at the justice systems in places like Canada, Oz, and especially the prison palaces that are found in places like Norway and Austria, you'll see that sentences are shorter, prison conditions are more humane and there's more of a focus on rehabilitation and education to prepare a guy for his re-entry into society. I work with a lot of excons who got their plumbing and welding tickets while inside. Maybe its cultural/historical differences but our crime rates are lower than they are in the USA.

Anyway, about South American prisons: I was told by many guys in Colombia that if a Gringo gets locked up they don't just throw him into the general population and if the guy has some money, he can live in relative comfort during his bid, which doesn't surprise me, look at the infamous murderer Joran Vandersloot, this guy has a big screen TV, laptop and X-box while locked up, he's friends with everyone as he teaches them English and that greasy bastard even knocked a girl up, while locked up: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5...r-reports/

Now that's a scumbag who deserves to be eating dirt sandwiches in Sheriff Joe's tent prison!

[Ovid]

People shouldn't go to jail or prison for a weed charge, because recreationally smoking or selling cannabis is objectively not a threat to society at this point in time. That's beside the point though. Prison should be an unpleasant place, both as a deterrent and to keep from rewarding the criminal. (Even if, for the sake of argument, it's granted that it should not serve as a punishment per se, which is highly open to debate, to say the least.)

I don't fancy bankrolling criminals' party lifestyles with my tax dollars. If I were to reform prisons, I would probably focus on increasing the amount of manual labor done, both to reduce the expenses and to give prisoners some concrete skills that would enable them to make a living after their release, without resorting to crime. This might occupy prisoners' days to the extent that the gangs would not have the power they currently do. Of course, this would take some creativity, because nowadays with machines, pure manual labor is less useful. Perhaps they could be trained to operate/oversee factory equipment, with some appropriate security measures so that they would not be able to steal parts of said equipment to make weapons/escape.

[thegmanifesto]

(04-14-2013 10:55 PM)Ovid Wrote:  

People shouldn't go to jail or prison for a weed charge, because recreationally smoking or selling cannabis is objectively not a threat to society at this point in time. That's beside the point though. Prison should be an unpleasant place, both as a deterrent and to keep from rewarding the criminal. (Even if, for the sake of argument, it's granted that it should not serve as a punishment per se, which is highly open to debate, to say the least.)

It is not really "beside the point".

You can still serve hard time for weed.

[Ovid]

Sure, but does anybody except a bunch of 70 year old Neoconservatives really think that is a good idea? There are two questions here: what should prison life be like, and who should be in prison. If you argue from a position of accepting the status quo, e.g., accepting that druggies rightfully do hard time, then it makes more sense to ameliorate prison conditions, because these guys obviously don't deserve the implied punishment and the hardships that, say, a murderer does.

My cousin got nailed for something drug-related (his mom didn't exactly want to tell me what, and I've only seen him once since then, at his wedding, which was hardly a time to ask) and was in the pen for 3 years. He didn't start any fights or act like an animal, and was transferred to a minimum-security facility where he was able to work with the forest service during the days. From what I hear, his prison life was not a cakewalk, but it wasn't inhuman either. He came out better for it. I suspect this has a lot to do with the fact that he was incarcerated in a flyover state where gangs really don't exist like they do in Latin America or other places in the US.

[speakeasy]

(04-14-2013 10:07 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(04-14-2013 02:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(04-13-2013 04:31 AM)michelin Wrote:  

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/06/03/...adise.html

Swimming pools, poosy, cannabis & oyster parties...all that and more in a prison on Isla Margarita.

Sounds like living in a college dorm, but without having to go to class.

Fuck that. Prison should be hell on earth. That's why I like Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He puts these scumbags out in tent camps in the Arizona desert and feeds them nothing but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Prison SHOULD be tough and miserable and a place you can't fathom living in.

Really?

Just for a weed charge?

No, I'm talking about serious violent stuff. I have little sympathy for hard core criminals.

[InternationPlayboy]

I can guarantee you it's not fun being in that prison, regardless of how nice they portray it.

[kdolo]

". Prison SHOULD be tough and miserable and a place you can't fathom living in.
[/quote]

Really?

Just for a weed charge?
[/quote]

No, I'm talking about serious violent stuff. I have little sympathy for hard core criminals.
[/quote]"

Sympathy is irrelevant. This issue is justice. A criminal -duly judged- is removed from society. This is punishment: restrictions on life, liberty, happiness , earning.

There is no need to try to pile on the punishment by make the conditions horrid or inhumane.

[Samseau]

(04-15-2013 12:09 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(04-14-2013 10:07 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(04-14-2013 02:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(04-13-2013 04:31 AM)michelin Wrote:  

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2011/06/03/...adise.html

Swimming pools, poosy, cannabis & oyster parties...all that and more in a prison on Isla Margarita.

Sounds like living in a college dorm, but without having to go to class.

Fuck that. Prison should be hell on earth. That's why I like Sheriff Joe Arpaio. He puts these scumbags out in tent camps in the Arizona desert and feeds them nothing but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Prison SHOULD be tough and miserable and a place you can't fathom living in.

Really?

Just for a weed charge?

No, I'm talking about serious violent stuff. I have little sympathy for hard core criminals.

Too bad our gov is run by a bunch of crazy pyschopath's

[kdolo]

"That's beside the point though. Prison should be an unpleasant place, both as a deterrent and to keep from rewarding the criminal.

I don't fancy bankrolling criminals' party lifestyles with my tax dollars. If I were to reform prisons, I would probably focus on increasing the amount of manual labor. done, both to reduce the expenses and to give prisoners some concrete skills that would enable them to make a living after their release, without resorting to crime. "

1.The U.S. has the highest prison population in the world by far. Processing and management of "criminals" is a multi-billion dollar business. Obviously - prison being unpleasant - serves as no/little deterrent as is - if that is the point then its doing a horrible job.

2. You may not fancy bankrolling criminal's lifestyles with your taxes, but you are so doing anyway. If, so, then let them be used in the interests of justice and not sadism. - Many, many, people who are in prison simply do not deserve to be there.

- many of them have skills: i.e sales and distribution.

it just so happens that government arbitrarily makes selling plants and their derivative illegal and makes the punishments for doing so overly harsh.

[Giovonny]

(04-14-2013 02:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Prison should be hell on earth.

Making it "hell on earth" would turn men into monsters. Most of these guys will return to society.

Making it "hell on earth" means that they will be MORE dangerous when they return to society.

Do you really want to make them more dangerous and more violent?

I think trying to educate them and teach them compassion would be a better approach.

Of course, some guys are beyond rehabilitation. These guys should be isolated in their own prisons, not mixed in with low level offenders.

Young guys who come in for the first time, we should try to rehabilitate and educate them.

They will be returning to society.

(04-14-2013 02:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

these scumbags .

In America, most of the people in prison are there for drugs. Many are/were addicted.

If we treat them like animals, they quickly start to behave like animals.

Then they return to society. Better to treat them like humans.

I'm talking mostly about all the drug offenders. Again, which is about 60% of our prison population. I'm talking about people who are non violent and still have a chance in life.

The murderers, rapists, and child molesters can rot in hell.

In America, prison has become another FOR PROFIT business. But, thats a separate discussion.

[Ovid]

The solution is to reform the justice system and laws so that fewer drug offenders are in prison, rather than reforming prisons to make it downright pleasant for whoever happens to be in there. Portugal has had great success with its decriminalization and rehab program, which is objectively much more just than locking somebody up with violent thugs simply for using/selling some plants or chemicals.

The real problem, it seems to me, is that the prisoners respect and look up to their gang leaders and fellow criminals more than the prison authorities. How to fix this? I have no idea. Perhaps if the gang-members spent more time on a chain gang and less time being allowed to socialize, things would improve?

[Bad Hussar]

I often hear the claim that a large % of the American prison population is in jail because of drug possession. I've always thought that couldn't be true, but I am open to points raised here. I have a couple of questions:

1) Joe Blow is out on the street smoking a joint. Police roll up, arrest him for possession. In the US legal system is it really possible for him to end up in jail merely for possessing of a quantity suitable for personal use?
2) If Joe Blow is really poor is it a lot more likely that mere possession of a small amount will result in a prison term?
3) What proportion of people in jail for drug related offences can reasonably be described as dealers, and what percentage can reasonably be described as users only?

But onto the general discussion. It's true that the general public expect the justice system to exact revenge. They don't only expect the criminal to be removed from society and accept that that IS the punishment. They expect a separate distinct type of punishment that takes the place of the mob meting out their own revenge on the perpetrator. This punishment is prison itself being unpleasant. It's difficult to say whether it is appropriate for the sate to play along here or not. In the case of mild non-violent offenders I don't think it is, But in the case of real miscreants yes, absolutely. Like others have said, it is a deterrent. The really "evil" people in the world are pretty much all sociopaths. It's no use appealing to their conscience. They don't have one. You can only appeal to their self-interest. And in making prison an unpleasant place you do just that.

Look, in the future it is quite likely that psychiatric drugs will be developed that could provide an iron-clad guarantee that, if taken by a certain convicted criminal, would result in a total lack of desire to carry out the specified criminal activity. Is jail going to be superfluous then? Someone commits murder. Administer psychiatric drug AGV-932 that ensure he has zero likelihood of committing pre-meditated murder while on it. Have a condition that drug must be administered monthly/annually for life. He is free to go, and only needs to report to a clinic to get his shot. Do you really think that the victims friends/family, and the general public, will find this to be a suitable outcome? No way. As much as many in the justice system like to think of justice as being above revenge, it really isn't. We, the people, demand it. We just call it "Deterrence".