[HD668B]

(05-10-2010 02:27 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Hydro,
Indeed having a 2nd and possibly a 3rd passport is a great piece of the puzzle to be a true international player. Just keep in mind though that with a Brasilian passport, you would still need a visa to enter the US and Canada. So better to focus on a EU passport where you can enter the US/Canada freely with no visa. But a Brasilian passport is a good one to start with to live in Brasil full time.

World Passport

[Vacancier Permanent]

This is so cool! Anyone in here has a World Passport?
I'm really thinking of applying for one!

Un gros merci l'étranger!

[hydrogonian]

lol..Thats amazing. Who would've known? Its the ultimate solution to breezing through immigration in police states the world over!

[Vacancier Permanent]

It's an awesome idea also at this time, this sounds a bit utopic unfortunately. Good luck trying that while entering the US, the biggest police state the world has ever seen. Better have your real passport handy if you don't want to be put in a cell and sent into Guantanamo.

[hydrogonian]

(05-12-2010 02:20 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

It's an awesome idea also at this time, this sounds a bit utopic unfortunately. Good luck trying that while entering the US, the biggest police state the world has ever seen. Better have your real passport handy if you don't want to be put in a cell and sent into Guantanamo.

they might give you free board in a rubber room for even presenting it...

[Jim Kirk]

Few notes - you hit a lot of stuff in your post. Some considering law school might get a few gems from this - I am going to ramble - but hear me out -

I just passed my 10 year mark as a practicing lawyer in New York City. I have admission to 5 federal districts, as well as NY State, Connecticut and the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals - I went to a good Law School - (not top tier) in New York City. I graduated with a b- average but my LSAT score was high enough I got a good scholarship. I graduated through to passing the bar and paying the application fees with debt of about $95,000, I promptly married a girl from a wealthy family and went to work for a small but pretty active firm in New York City. Pay was abysmal - I worked there five years and moved to a very active mid-size firm and took a huge step up in pay and benefits although still not great by what the media tells people lawyers make - I am now going to move on again - probably to something completely different and not law related. My wife and I may open some type of 'green' business but who knows.

A word on the legal job market - for new hires and for BigLaw - it is the worst its ever been and New York City has the largest legal community in the country. The top three graduates (class rank 1, 2 and 3) this June of a mid-level Law School in NYC do not have jobs lined up after they take the bar. The BigLaw firms have not been hiring in general 'across the board' and just about any mid-level firm has laid 15% of its staff off in the past year. I was in Boston on a mediation last Fall and there its 10 times worse as from right from the mouth of retired MA State Judge who was on the bench for 30 years. Old backup plans like going to work for the New York City Law Department or the District Attorneys office do not work anymore because they are getting thousands of applicants and there is a general hiring freeze in all City agencies. An employment ad in the New York Law Journal will get 500 resumes. There are more reasons for this than the economy - the Courts in NY are throwing out a lot more cases - and automobile litigation is way off due to a Court of Appeals, but the mills keep churning out lawyers.

To the Original Poster - you will be lucky to have any decent job when you get out - no matter where you work -

If salary was not a consideration - the job you should go for would be something along these principles -

Andrew Carnegie had remarked something to the effect that you should throw yourself into you job without regard to pay (at first) because you need to learn the job from the trenches - so to speak. My first job had me in Court 3 to 4 times a week when I had no idea what I was doing. 3 years of law school teaches you NOTHING about lawyering. The skills you learn lawyering - dealing with clients from all parts of society from drug dealers to millionaire real estate developers - learning succint arguments and argumentative writing - trench style - is a valuable skill which does translate to other jobs and makes you a good lawyer and employee in any capacity. You learned none of that in law school. A Federal Judge once snickered at a greenhorn Biglaw guy for prefacing his argument with "May it Please the Court" - I made a motion in Fed Ct to dismiss a case once and the District Judge on the record told me 'he would look at my bullshit later' The formal memos and arguments you do in moot court are not used at all - they want plain speaking.

Anyway - BigLaw will not let you do any real lawyering for a very long time. They may let you field a call or write some material now and again - but they generally will not let you appear for something as mundane as a preliminary discovery conference for 7 to 10 years. Put another way - no student who went to work for BigLaw knows much about lawyering and they are not learning when they are young during their first 7 years which is the only time you can really learn something new and the most important time for a lawyer - once you get up about 34 or 35 years in age - you don't want to learn anymore - you are busy with wife and kids, etc. It gets MUCH harder to learn in this field after 35. (I am 36).

Therefore, take any job that throws you in the mix on many many different subject areas. The District attorneys office is great for this but its hampered by virtue of the fact that its all criminal law - you want to do everything - take a job that puts you in Court - after 6 months sponsors you for admission to federal court - after 9 months lets you take depsitions - after 2 years lets you take depositions on heavy cases - after 4 years lets you mediate and arbitrate cases - etc. Just keep growing your skills for those 7 to 10 years without regard to pay . . .

Now to the topic of your leaving the country to flee your debt -

Depending on the State for which you sit for a Bar - your name, social security number and entire academic and work history back before High School becomes a pseudo-public record. All your residences, names, place of Birth, etc. go into a file forever. New Jersey for instance requires you submit fingerprint cards which they may, or may not, keep. They will find you.

Depending on how agressive the note holder is on your loans - you will eliminate your ability to ever take out a loan, get a gov't job, work in law enforcement (you will be considered a security risk), pass background checks, ever. It will always be there in your file. Risking the foregoing in the first 7 to 10 years of your professional life, i.e. your first 'job', is very foolish. Consolidate your loans, ask for forbearence, try public interest employmet debt foregiveness - live at home for a few years - at least get the skills and experience you can from those early years. You are too young along to throw 3 (really 4) years of work away. Do lawyerly things - dont work as a congressional paige, BS like that - get that in. Even if you only do 3 years - that is a lot better than 0.

International lawyering - again law schools talk up a good game but it is very difficult to get licensed in any other country - Japan (I know one white guy that did it - but he had a Japanese wife) requires a certain amount of law school (one year I think) and an attorney sponsor. He was fluent in Japanese but never got more than a part-time job after admission - Japanese lawyers (their numbers are strictly controlled) do not hire Westerners. I know another guy that got licensed in France but he spoke better French than English - he passed the French equivalent of the bar exam which was given over 3 days entirely in French - (There are licensing exceptions for lawyers in the employ of foreign corporations - this might give you a limited exemption from these requirements i.e. work for Dow Chemical in Japan - but these jobs are very very difficult to find and usually offered to people with some real connection to the country)


If you are lucky (or unlucky) enough to snag a BigLaw job - if you want any type of lifestyle for the remainder of your life (and I mean this) take the job for the SOLE REASON that you will use it to pay off your debt and you will leave when that is accomplished. You want to hang with beta herbs, omega perverts, 4 foot 8 JAP's, for the rest of your life - join NYC BIgLaw . The older female partners are either 500 pounds weight and as mean - the younger ones are all dykes which only promote dykes. Most peopke in BigLaw for 10+ years in New York City HAVE SERIOUS MENTAL AND PHYSICAL PROBLEMS which they unleash on the world. AND I MEAN SERIOUS! The lawyer who likes to be put in diapers and spanked is the normal one in the bunch). Here is a sobering thought for you - check around the blogs and figure out where the associates from Skadden et. al. or Sullivan et. al. drink on Thursday evenings - 3 or 4 hours of you seeing that and its all the proof of what I just said you will ever need.

At any club in Manhattan, or high-end cocktail lounge, or rooftop bar, etc. with a nice scene - I have never met another lawyer (unless they all lied). I have always been the only one - and I got news for you - being a lawyer confers ABSOLUTELY NO STATUS. Your parents will be proud of you and it is an accomplishment but (to borrow the G's terminology) Nightlife Princess is going to bat an eyelash when you tell her your a lawyer. You would get more play if you told her you wrote a book on serial homocide.

If you had to incur 200k to get a law degree - you should not have gone to law school. I got my job when the market was not that bad - but since 2006 its been a bloodletting -

To some of the others considering law school -
Your Juris Doctor degree without 5 years work experience is pretty much worthless. All the college and law school salesman pushing law school by saying things akin to 'you can do anything with a law degree - you can work anywhere across all types of industries' is 96% bullshit. It will give you certain graduate credits towards a higher salary in a gov. job - or in law enforecement - but do not think Dell, or Hewlett Packard, or Dow Chemical are going to hire you in a non-lawyer capacity because you put 'JD' on your resume. I know people who have tried this route and more ofter you will have to explain away your law degree as people will view you with suspicion for not working as a lawyer. People still think o the 'LA Law' picture and think you are living the life of a G being a litigator.

With respect to foreign passports - if you are of European extraction and not to long in this country generation wise - Ireland, Germany and Italy have passport programs for persons who can claim 'citizenship by descent' - It took awhile but I got my Euro passports - which I then got for my wife and are not getting for the kids. These programs are not well organized or publicized - Ireland's program is the best and can be done without visiting the country - Italy is the worst as their beurocratic mess makes you go to offices in Italy 2 times at least and takes 2 years.

Just an FYI - the best thing about a Euro Union passport is that it entitles you to work anywhere in the European Union. For instance, you could as of last year - land in France and file 2 forms with the gov't and goto work. After 6 months you can go on their health care systems, etc. A Euro passport is worth its weight in gold for these reasons alone. I had read on expatica.com that the street value of an Irish passport was one million Euro - it does not surprise me.

If I had it to do all over again - I WOULD NOT have gone to Law School although I do appreciate the mental discipline it instilled and the level of organization and critical reading ability it gave me - but it was not worth 95k. I would probably have gone into anything dealing in cash in a field catering to yuppies/immigrants. Import of wood from Africa - childrens clothes from France or Spain, etc.

Wealth comes from profit and capital gains - not from salaries. Ask me how I know.

[Amish]

(05-25-2010 12:38 AM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  

If I had it to do all over again - I WOULD NOT have gone to Law School although I do appreciate the mental discipline it instilled and the level of organization and critical reading ability it gave me - but it was not worth 95k. I would probably have gone into anything dealing in cash in a field catering to yuppies/immigrants. Import of wood from Africa - childrens clothes from France or Spain, etc.

Let's not underestimate the value of life experiences. I'm currently quitting my career because I now hate it, but I would definitely do it again given the same circumstances. I learned very valuable lessons.

(05-25-2010 12:38 AM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  

Wealth comes from profit and capital gains - not from salaries. Ask me how I know.

I'm listening...

[DrArete]

Kirk - great post, best I have seen on here yet.

The main attraction people have to law school is that is seems like the safe route to a upper middle class lifestyle.

That used to be true for a top tier school, but now that isn't even the case.

My advice to people: have rich parents, study medicine (avoid a PCP residency like the plague), traffic in drugs, found a business with a low marginal unit cost that exploits third world labor, or simply lower your expectations and be content with a moderate standard of living in Latin America.

About passports, if you use that World Passport thing, you should contact me so I can sell you some land on the moon.

If you really need an extra passport, it is possible to buy a real one in certain Latin American countries. Four years ago, a business associate of a friend, who helped me change dollars on the black market in Venezuela, let me know about an opportunity to buy a real Venezuelan passport (entered into their computers, totally legit, with my picture and any name I wanted), price was $4,000 for a normal passport, and 10,000 for a diplomatic one. I briefly considered it, but then decided that I didn't know the guy well enough to let him know that I would be at a specific place and time with thousands of dollars in cash on me. They kill for MUCH less than that over there.

[Giovonny]

The real deal from a real Lawyer. Thats what this forum is about. Getting a real opinion from someone who has DONE IT. Choosing the right lifestyle is EVERYTHING. I always thought being a lawyer overrated. Too much work, stress, etc .

Getting an "education" and respectable "career" does not always mean guaranteed happiness and women. Just look at Roosh. Sometimes its more important to do something you enjoy that allows you to live the lifestyle you want. Be careful giving up your freedom for a few thousand dollars more, freedom is priceless.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Awesome post Jim Kirk! Thanks a lot for providing your real life example in here to some of us contemplating law school like me and a few others in here. I applied to law school last year and was accepted but decided at the last minute to postpone it for a year. Now, I have until June 1st to decide if I want to start this year. The more I think about it, after weighing the pros and cons and reading first hand experiences from those who have done it like you, the less and less I want to go to law school. Admittedly the market situation may be different here in Canada as it is in the US and admittedly I'm not like your typical law student as I do speak almost 6 languages fluently and I'm always being told by a couple of my lawyer friends in here that I'd be successful in an international law/diplomacy career. But even that, for what? Sacrificing 5 years of my life studying like hell and then after that, having a mega over stressed job? No thank you. I'd much rather take making 5-10K a month from my online businesses and being totally free, mobile, living where I want and on my terms totally stress free than being a high paid and highly respected lawyer. It's all about lifestyle. As Giovonny nicely put it, freedom is priceless.

(05-26-2010 01:50 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Getting an "education" and respectable "career" does not always mean guaranteed happiness and women. Just look at Roosh. Sometimes its more important to do something you enjoy that allows you to live the lifestyle you want. Be careful giving up your freedom for a few thousand dollars more, freedom is priceless.

Spot on man.

[DrArete]

In the end though, you have to make a highly personal decision about whether law or any given career is right for you. This year, thousands of people will study law AND will end up becoming lawyers who LOVE their jobs and feel invigorated. Of, course, there will be thousands who will hate it like the plague. You may fall into one group, you may fall into the other. Unfortunately, there isn't really a way to tell until you have gone through law school and worked.

Also, I am sure everyone here will love this, one of my all time favorites:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/temp-hi...office,49/

[Pepini]

(05-26-2010 04:06 PM)lavinci Wrote:  

(05-25-2010 12:38 AM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  

I had read on expatica.com that the street value of an Irish passport was one million Euro - it does not surprise me.

What?! US permanant residency can be "bought" for give or take 15-20k. How did you come up with a million euro for a EU passport? I'm gone have to ask for a source on that.

My EU passport is for sale!

[Jim Kirk]

Thanks for the comments guys - I'll post more stories later but as to some questions raised here in response to what I wrote -

When I said 'street value' I meant doing something criminal like selling the passport to someone that looks like you (this is now harder to do as all EU passports contain enhanced security features) or simply devising a way using birth records and such or foreign identification over several months to basically set up the buyer to get an EU Passport.

To Chinese and Arabs, or Israelis looking to change their names and get out, a million for full residence ability across the EU is a bargain. This stuff was a pet hobby of mine a few years ago - like every crook there are a million passport programs in South America - the 4k for a Venezualan passort was probably legit but as you need a visa to get into the US from there it would not do you much good except in moving back and forth across South America.

true story - there was a Korean asshole (there are no other type of Korean by the way) in a building I use to work at - we called him the 'Go-ja' which is the worst curse against a Korean male - it basically means he has underdeveloped genitals - anyway this guy was a 'community leader' and quite wealthy. We found out later that he pushed along US citizenship for other go-ja's for about a 50k to 100k donation to his 'civic group.' He did it through a Panama 'economic citizenship' program. Basically at that time a Panama resident could get an work visa in the US easily where in Korea the wait was 5 to 7 years. You needed to invest 100k in Panama for 5 years or so in a bank but you got your residency and citizenship in Panama right away. It is estimated that 30k Chinese alone entered the US from Panama on this program.

To Perm. Vacationer - Thats amazing being fluent in 6 languages - Quebec is a good trip. I remember trying to drive into Canada up the Northway but being told it would cost several hundred dollars for permits for all the guns i had in my trunk - I saw forget it and drove back to Plattsburg (what a fucking dump but the Saranac river and Lake Champlain are beautiful). If you had something lined up - or you were already in the employ of a multinational then law school would be a good idea. 6 language fluency is very rare - with that you could make yourself indispensible to some company - but I think I would have my employment angle already sorted out before going in.

Please note that with a good client base (criminals with a lot of money that keep getting arrested for instance) - being a solo practitioner or 2 or 3 man outfit can pay very very well if you keep your expenses very low. Probably the most overall successful guy I know is a criminal defense lawyer. WOrked for the Kings County DA for 6 years and did enough felony trials to qualify for the 18B panel which are criminal defense lawyers appointed by the COurt that actually get to charge by the hour at decent 150$ rates. One criminal invariably knows another criminal - so when he left the DA he got a website - full functioning blackberry that can accept faxes - messaging service and mail drop. The 18B work paid the bills and 18B clients gradually referred other clients who referred other clients. He is making a nice living because he has almost NO OVERHEAD. AS law libraries are all 'online' now - you dont need a physical office.

Contrast that to my office now - linked computers, Dell server, 7 printers, prime office space and location, parking for 15 attorneys, etc. etc. etc.

I got a post a little of my thoughts on the quality of life in USA as opposed to Europe - Ill see if I can bang out anoterh thread.

[DrArete]

(05-26-2010 10:49 PM)lavinci Wrote:  

(05-26-2010 05:12 PM)Pepini Wrote:  

(05-26-2010 04:06 PM)lavinci Wrote:  

(05-25-2010 12:38 AM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  

I had read on expatica.com that the street value of an Irish passport was one million Euro - it does not surprise me.

What?! US permanant residency can be "bought" for give or take 15-20k. How did you come up with a million euro for a EU passport? I'm gone have to ask for a source on that.

My EU passport is for sale!

Yeah I know right? Not to take anything away from Jim Kirk's post, which creates a very interesting perspective on law career from the inside out, but just like Pepini I happen to have a EU passport and I know that it's in high value but wow, someone estimated it for a million bucks? Maybe what was considered was the fact that you have free health care and college education in most of the countries and other social benefits, which is really cool when you really think about how much all that costs in US. I still can't get over the fact how many people here in US do not have basic medical care. How unfair is that? My buddy, an American, got recently laid off, lost his health care, and when he landed in the hospital due to a minor issue, guess what, he received a bill for 4000$ for some standard treatment, no big issues. 4000$ for nothing? How crazy is that? When I lived in Europe and moved to another country and landed in hospital in that country you know how much I payed? Nothing. They say that Europe has bigger taxes, but when you look at all these hidden federal and states taxes here you'd be surprised how much you pay here too.

That 4000 bill is not for nothing. Some of it is for supplies. Some for the cost of running the hospital. Some for the 13 years of higher education doctors go through (when the doctor sees you for 5 minutes, you are getting the benefit of the thousands and thousands of hours he spent in med school and in residency), and some for the money the hospital loses on ER patients with no insurance.

The training of US doctors is FAR more rigorous and expensive than anywhere else in the world.

In European countries, they are going broke over their health systems. They have massive taxes, pay their doctors next to nothing, have significant wait times for non emergency care, and one of the reasons it is possible is because they don't pay for their own defense and have cleverly outsourced that to US taxpayers.

[Pepini]

(05-25-2010 12:38 AM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  

Few notes - you hit a lot of stuff in your post. Some considering law school might get a few gems from this - I am going to ramble - but hear me out -

I just passed my 10 year mark as a practicing lawyer in New York City. I have admission to 5 federal districts, as well as NY State, Connecticut and the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals - I went to a good Law School - (not top tier) in New York City. I graduated with a b- average but my LSAT score was high enough I got a good scholarship. I graduated through to passing the bar and paying the application fees with debt of about $95,000, I promptly married a girl from a wealthy family and went to work for a small but pretty active firm in New York City. Pay was abysmal - I worked there five years and moved to a very active mid-size firm and took a huge step up in pay and benefits although still not great by what the media tells people lawyers make - I am now going to move on again - probably to something completely different and not law related. My wife and I may open some type of 'green' business but who knows.

A word on the legal job market - for new hires and for BigLaw - it is the worst its ever been and New York City has the largest legal community in the country. The top three graduates (class rank 1, 2 and 3) this June of a mid-level Law School in NYC do not have jobs lined up after they take the bar. The BigLaw firms have not been hiring in general 'across the board' and just about any mid-level firm has laid 15% of its staff off in the past year. I was in Boston on a mediation last Fall and there its 10 times worse as from right from the mouth of retired MA State Judge who was on the bench for 30 years. Old backup plans like going to work for the New York City Law Department or the District Attorneys office do not work anymore because they are getting thousands of applicants and there is a general hiring freeze in all City agencies. An employment ad in the New York Law Journal will get 500 resumes. There are more reasons for this than the economy - the Courts in NY are throwing out a lot more cases - and automobile litigation is way off due to a Court of Appeals, but the mills keep churning out lawyers.

To the Original Poster - you will be lucky to have any decent job when you get out - no matter where you work -

If salary was not a consideration - the job you should go for would be something along these principles -

Andrew Carnegie had remarked something to the effect that you should throw yourself into you job without regard to pay (at first) because you need to learn the job from the trenches - so to speak. My first job had me in Court 3 to 4 times a week when I had no idea what I was doing. 3 years of law school teaches you NOTHING about lawyering. The skills you learn lawyering - dealing with clients from all parts of society from drug dealers to millionaire real estate developers - learning succint arguments and argumentative writing - trench style - is a valuable skill which does translate to other jobs and makes you a good lawyer and employee in any capacity. You learned none of that in law school. A Federal Judge once snickered at a greenhorn Biglaw guy for prefacing his argument with "May it Please the Court" - I made a motion in Fed Ct to dismiss a case once and the District Judge on the record told me 'he would look at my bullshit later' The formal memos and arguments you do in moot court are not used at all - they want plain speaking.

Anyway - BigLaw will not let you do any real lawyering for a very long time. They may let you field a call or write some material now and again - but they generally will not let you appear for something as mundane as a preliminary discovery conference for 7 to 10 years. Put another way - no student who went to work for BigLaw knows much about lawyering and they are not learning when they are young during their first 7 years which is the only time you can really learn something new and the most important time for a lawyer - once you get up about 34 or 35 years in age - you don't want to learn anymore - you are busy with wife and kids, etc. It gets MUCH harder to learn in this field after 35. (I am 36).

Therefore, take any job that throws you in the mix on many many different subject areas. The District attorneys office is great for this but its hampered by virtue of the fact that its all criminal law - you want to do everything - take a job that puts you in Court - after 6 months sponsors you for admission to federal court - after 9 months lets you take depsitions - after 2 years lets you take depositions on heavy cases - after 4 years lets you mediate and arbitrate cases - etc. Just keep growing your skills for those 7 to 10 years without regard to pay . . .

Now to the topic of your leaving the country to flee your debt -

Depending on the State for which you sit for a Bar - your name, social security number and entire academic and work history back before High School becomes a pseudo-public record. All your residences, names, place of Birth, etc. go into a file forever. New Jersey for instance requires you submit fingerprint cards which they may, or may not, keep. They will find you.

Depending on how agressive the note holder is on your loans - you will eliminate your ability to ever take out a loan, get a gov't job, work in law enforcement (you will be considered a security risk), pass background checks, ever. It will always be there in your file. Risking the foregoing in the first 7 to 10 years of your professional life, i.e. your first 'job', is very foolish. Consolidate your loans, ask for forbearence, try public interest employmet debt foregiveness - live at home for a few years - at least get the skills and experience you can from those early years. You are too young along to throw 3 (really 4) years of work away. Do lawyerly things - dont work as a congressional paige, BS like that - get that in. Even if you only do 3 years - that is a lot better than 0.

International lawyering - again law schools talk up a good game but it is very difficult to get licensed in any other country - Japan (I know one white guy that did it - but he had a Japanese wife) requires a certain amount of law school (one year I think) and an attorney sponsor. He was fluent in Japanese but never got more than a part-time job after admission - Japanese lawyers (their numbers are strictly controlled) do not hire Westerners. I know another guy that got licensed in France but he spoke better French than English - he passed the French equivalent of the bar exam which was given over 3 days entirely in French - (There are licensing exceptions for lawyers in the employ of foreign corporations - this might give you a limited exemption from these requirements i.e. work for Dow Chemical in Japan - but these jobs are very very difficult to find and usually offered to people with some real connection to the country)


If you are lucky (or unlucky) enough to snag a BigLaw job - if you want any type of lifestyle for the remainder of your life (and I mean this) take the job for the SOLE REASON that you will use it to pay off your debt and you will leave when that is accomplished. You want to hang with beta herbs, omega perverts, 4 foot 8 JAP's, for the rest of your life - join NYC BIgLaw . The older female partners are either 500 pounds weight and as mean - the younger ones are all dykes which only promote dykes. Most peopke in BigLaw for 10+ years in New York City HAVE SERIOUS MENTAL AND PHYSICAL PROBLEMS which they unleash on the world. AND I MEAN SERIOUS! The lawyer who likes to be put in diapers and spanked is the normal one in the bunch). Here is a sobering thought for you - check around the blogs and figure out where the associates from Skadden et. al. or Sullivan et. al. drink on Thursday evenings - 3 or 4 hours of you seeing that and its all the proof of what I just said you will ever need.

At any club in Manhattan, or high-end cocktail lounge, or rooftop bar, etc. with a nice scene - I have never met another lawyer (unless they all lied). I have always been the only one - and I got news for you - being a lawyer confers ABSOLUTELY NO STATUS. Your parents will be proud of you and it is an accomplishment but (to borrow the G's terminology) Nightlife Princess is going to bat an eyelash when you tell her your a lawyer. You would get more play if you told her you wrote a book on serial homocide.

If you had to incur 200k to get a law degree - you should not have gone to law school. I got my job when the market was not that bad - but since 2006 its been a bloodletting -

To some of the others considering law school -
Your Juris Doctor degree without 5 years work experience is pretty much worthless. All the college and law school salesman pushing law school by saying things akin to 'you can do anything with a law degree - you can work anywhere across all types of industries' is 96% bullshit. It will give you certain graduate credits towards a higher salary in a gov. job - or in law enforecement - but do not think Dell, or Hewlett Packard, or Dow Chemical are going to hire you in a non-lawyer capacity because you put 'JD' on your resume. I know people who have tried this route and more ofter you will have to explain away your law degree as people will view you with suspicion for not working as a lawyer. People still think o the 'LA Law' picture and think you are living the life of a G being a litigator.

With respect to foreign passports - if you are of European extraction and not to long in this country generation wise - Ireland, Germany and Italy have passport programs for persons who can claim 'citizenship by descent' - It took awhile but I got my Euro passports - which I then got for my wife and are not getting for the kids. These programs are not well organized or publicized - Ireland's program is the best and can be done without visiting the country - Italy is the worst as their beurocratic mess makes you go to offices in Italy 2 times at least and takes 2 years.

Just an FYI - the best thing about a Euro Union passport is that it entitles you to work anywhere in the European Union. For instance, you could as of last year - land in France and file 2 forms with the gov't and goto work. After 6 months you can go on their health care systems, etc. A Euro passport is worth its weight in gold for these reasons alone. I had read on expatica.com that the street value of an Irish passport was one million Euro - it does not surprise me.

If I had it to do all over again - I WOULD NOT have gone to Law School although I do appreciate the mental discipline it instilled and the level of organization and critical reading ability it gave me - but it was not worth 95k. I would probably have gone into anything dealing in cash in a field catering to yuppies/immigrants. Import of wood from Africa - childrens clothes from France or Spain, etc.

Wealth comes from profit and capital gains - not from salaries. Ask me how I know.

Good info.

[hydrogonian]

(05-27-2010 01:46 AM)DrArete Wrote:  

In European countries, they are going broke over their health systems. They have massive taxes, pay their doctors next to nothing, have significant wait times for non emergency care, and one of the reasons it is possible is because they don't pay for their own defense and have cleverly outsourced that to US taxpayers.

A massive generalization.

My experience with European and Asian socialized medicine is nothing like you describe.

The small hospitals that I've been to in the suburbs of major metros in Europe and Asia blow away one of the BEST hospitals (top 2) here in the major east coast city in which I reside. Its also one of the better known in the country. I mean, the hospital in question should seriously be embarrassed, claiming to have advanced patient care. The only reason they aren't is because most Americans haven't experienced anything different, and don't know the difference. The waiting rooms here are atrocious. I waited 5 hours the last time I was in an emergency room here.

In the socialized hospitals that I've been in, check in is super-organized and I have never waited anymore than ten minutes to see a doctor. Then, when I need to see a specialist, or get a test done, I'm doing that within ten more minutes. The last time I was in a socialized hospital in Asia, I saw multiple doctors, had a cat scan, was out in about 2 hours, and paid about $2. Oh yeah, the tax rate in this country is much lower than in ours. Think single digits.

The insurance junta in this country is what drives up costs, and makes the whole system fiscally inefficient, including education. Health care costs are not the primary reason why taxes are so high Europe.

How can a major metro ER be as bad as the one I described in my city, with all of the insurance money that runs through that hospital each day?

One reason is because we DON'T have socialized medicine, and the inner city poor NEED to go to the ER for basic care, and therefore overcrowd it, instead of being able to make a normal appointment like everyone else. The cost of basic care isn't regulated, but rather hyper-inflated, and so you have a bunch of people who cant afford it and clog the system at the bottom.

The whole system is broken precisely because basic patient care is a for profit enterprise, that isn't market driven, but hyper inflated due to the effects of private insurance on the market.

You sound like you drank some kool aid without experiencing first world socialized medicine for yourself.

[Pepini]

(05-27-2010 01:46 AM)DrArete Wrote:  

(05-26-2010 10:49 PM)lavinci Wrote:  

(05-26-2010 05:12 PM)Pepini Wrote:  

(05-26-2010 04:06 PM)lavinci Wrote:  

(05-25-2010 12:38 AM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  

I had read on expatica.com that the street value of an Irish passport was one million Euro - it does not surprise me.

What?! US permanant residency can be "bought" for give or take 15-20k. How did you come up with a million euro for a EU passport? I'm gone have to ask for a source on that.

My EU passport is for sale!

Yeah I know right? Not to take anything away from Jim Kirk's post, which creates a very interesting perspective on law career from the inside out, but just like Pepini I happen to have a EU passport and I know that it's in high value but wow, someone estimated it for a million bucks? Maybe what was considered was the fact that you have free health care and college education in most of the countries and other social benefits, which is really cool when you really think about how much all that costs in US. I still can't get over the fact how many people here in US do not have basic medical care. How unfair is that? My buddy, an American, got recently laid off, lost his health care, and when he landed in the hospital due to a minor issue, guess what, he received a bill for 4000$ for some standard treatment, no big issues. 4000$ for nothing? How crazy is that? When I lived in Europe and moved to another country and landed in hospital in that country you know how much I payed? Nothing. They say that Europe has bigger taxes, but when you look at all these hidden federal and states taxes here you'd be surprised how much you pay here too.

That 4000 bill is not for nothing. Some of it is for supplies. Some for the cost of running the hospital. Some for the 13 years of higher education doctors go through (when the doctor sees you for 5 minutes, you are getting the benefit of the thousands and thousands of hours he spent in med school and in residency), and some for the money the hospital loses on ER patients with no insurance.

The training of US doctors is FAR more rigorous and expensive than anywhere else in the world.

In European countries, they are going broke over their health systems. They have massive taxes, pay their doctors next to nothing, have significant wait times for non emergency care, and one of the reasons it is possible is because they don't pay for their own defense and have cleverly outsourced that to US taxpayers.

One of the main differences between Europe and US health systems is the liability of doctors. In the US you seem to pursue the doctors with countless law suits. And the value of the payments are ridiculously high. I´m not defending that doctors shouldn´t be liable. But you have to understand that they are in a different category than other jobs.
This was told to me by a criminal law teacher who said something that if Europe would do the same than US regarding the liability of doctors prices would rise.

The difference probably goes further beyond health system, but I believe European health system is better than the US. It´s unthinkable a person should not receive health treatment cause of money. That´s a basic need. From what I heard the privatization of UK health system made them drop abysmally in health care statistics.
You can´t make money out of health systems! You can try to make it work the most eficiently posible, but profit. The principle in the mind of the doctor when deciding the treatment for the patient should be the best for the patient and not what which treatment will give more profit.

A good friend of mine is a doctor. From what I understand the majority of doctors don´t study medicine cause of money. They do it cause they believe in doing good. All the doctors I know have very solid principles. They major flaw is protecting each other when something goes wrong and the subsidizing that some receive from Pharmaceutical companies in return of prescribing a certain medicine.

I don´t think the creation of a european military force would change health system. But I don´t have any data on this. I remenber once reading that Europe is the treasure and US the safety bolt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html

[Roosh]

Quote:

It´s unthinkable a person should not receive health treatment cause of money.

Well in the U.S. you aren't denied care if you go to a hospital. But it's so expensive that a visit for something trivial can put you into bankruptcy. People use the internet instead to diagnose themselves and weigh the pros and cons of going to the doctor.

[hydrogonian]

(05-27-2010 05:29 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:

It´s unthinkable a person should not receive health treatment cause of money.

Well in the U.S. you aren't denied care if you go to a hospital. But it's so expensive that a visit for something trivial can put you into bankruptcy. People use the internet instead to diagnose themselves and weigh the pros and cons of going to the doctor.

Yeah, anything short of ball cancer and I'm not going.

[hydrogonian]

(05-27-2010 01:46 AM)DrArete Wrote:  

The training of US doctors is FAR more rigorous and expensive than anywhere else in the world.

Perhaps more expensive, but the more rigorous part isn't true. In any country with a high standard of care, the training almost certainly on par. For instance, in socialized France, which supposedly has the best care in the world, I'm sure that you will find the physician training at least as rigorous, if not more. They have a much more rigorous secondary school system compared to anywhere in North America, and so it follows that they likely wouldn't slack in the physician training department.

[DrArete]

(05-27-2010 04:27 PM)Pepini Wrote:  

(05-27-2010 01:46 AM)DrArete Wrote:  

(05-26-2010 10:49 PM)lavinci Wrote:  

(05-26-2010 05:12 PM)Pepini Wrote:  

(05-26-2010 04:06 PM)lavinci Wrote:  

(05-25-2010 12:38 AM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  

I had read on expatica.com that the street value of an Irish passport was one million Euro - it does not surprise me.

What?! US permanant residency can be "bought" for give or take 15-20k. How did you come up with a million euro for a EU passport? I'm gone have to ask for a source on that.

My EU passport is for sale!

Yeah I know right? Not to take anything away from Jim Kirk's post, which creates a very interesting perspective on law career from the inside out, but just like Pepini I happen to have a EU passport and I know that it's in high value but wow, someone estimated it for a million bucks? Maybe what was considered was the fact that you have free health care and college education in most of the countries and other social benefits, which is really cool when you really think about how much all that costs in US. I still can't get over the fact how many people here in US do not have basic medical care. How unfair is that? My buddy, an American, got recently laid off, lost his health care, and when he landed in the hospital due to a minor issue, guess what, he received a bill for 4000$ for some standard treatment, no big issues. 4000$ for nothing? How crazy is that? When I lived in Europe and moved to another country and landed in hospital in that country you know how much I payed? Nothing. They say that Europe has bigger taxes, but when you look at all these hidden federal and states taxes here you'd be surprised how much you pay here too.

That 4000 bill is not for nothing. Some of it is for supplies. Some for the cost of running the hospital. Some for the 13 years of higher education doctors go through (when the doctor sees you for 5 minutes, you are getting the benefit of the thousands and thousands of hours he spent in med school and in residency), and some for the money the hospital loses on ER patients with no insurance.

The training of US doctors is FAR more rigorous and expensive than anywhere else in the world.

In European countries, they are going broke over their health systems. They have massive taxes, pay their doctors next to nothing, have significant wait times for non emergency care, and one of the reasons it is possible is because they don't pay for their own defense and have cleverly outsourced that to US taxpayers.

One of the main differences between Europe and US health systems is the liability of doctors. In the US you seem to pursue the doctors with countless law suits. And the value of the payments are ridiculously high. I´m not defending that doctors shouldn´t be liable. But you have to understand that they are in a different category than other jobs.
This was told to me by a criminal law teacher who said something that if Europe would do the same than US regarding the liability of doctors prices would rise.

The difference probably goes further beyond health system, but I believe European health system is better than the US. It´s unthinkable a person should not receive health treatment cause of money. That´s a basic need. From what I heard the privatization of UK health system made them drop abysmally in health care statistics.
You can´t make money out of health systems! You can try to make it work the most eficiently posible, but profit. The principle in the mind of the doctor when deciding the treatment for the patient should be the best for the patient and not what which treatment will give more profit.

A good friend of mine is a doctor. From what I understand the majority of doctors don´t study medicine cause of money. They do it cause they believe in doing good. All the doctors I know have very solid principles. They major flaw is protecting each other when something goes wrong and the subsidizing that some receive from Pharmaceutical companies in return of prescribing a certain medicine.

I don´t think the creation of a european military force would change health system. But I don´t have any data on this. I remenber once reading that Europe is the treasure and US the safety bolt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html

A small percentage of doctors do it because they think they are changing the world.
Most wake up somewhere after MS2 when plowing through 2000 pages of Robbins Pathology.

Of course, any pre med will spout the Gandhi's second coming BS, but when they get out into the real world, they want to get paid for busting their ass through abusive residencies, and working 24 hr shifts at the hospital, and dealing with bad cases and worse patients.

The same thing happens with law school - every first year tool thinks they are going to be doing human rights law, and defend homeless people from evil property developers while locking up African dictators on the weekend, but by third year, they are all willing to knife each other in the back for a Big Law corporate job.

Yes, you can and should try and make money out of health systems. The government does a terrible job of managing just about any large scale enterprise except for war.

Healthcare is not a right, and the sooner the people realize that, the better. It is a finite resource. Too bad that's the way it works, but its true.

I don't know where you get your facts or imagination. Healthcare here in Spain is in crisis. The number of medical errors, and the incompetency of many doctors is appaling. Guess what happens when you pay doctors a crap salary? The best and brightest dont pursue medicine.

Oh, and doctors generally advocate for their patients, it is the insurance companies who don't want to pay for many procedures in the USA.

It is simply not possible to give everyone top quality medical care. There aren't enough supplies, doctors, beds, and machines.

Doctors are not above self interest. Do you have any idea of the amount of training there is? MCAT, Step1, Step2, Step3, Residency, Fellowship, etc etc etc

[DrArete]

(05-27-2010 04:07 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(05-27-2010 01:46 AM)DrArete Wrote:  

In European countries, they are going broke over their health systems. They have massive taxes, pay their doctors next to nothing, have significant wait times for non emergency care, and one of the reasons it is possible is because they don't pay for their own defense and have cleverly outsourced that to US taxpayers.

A massive generalization.

My experience with European and Asian socialized medicine is nothing like you describe.

The small hospitals that I've been to in the suburbs of major metros in Europe and Asia blow away one of the BEST hospitals (top 2) here in the major east coast city in which I reside. Its also one of the better known in the country. I mean, the hospital in question should seriously be embarrassed, claiming to have advanced patient care. The only reason they aren't is because most Americans haven't experienced anything different, and don't know the difference. The waiting rooms here are atrocious. I waited 5 hours the last time I was in an emergency room here.

In the socialized hospitals that I've been in, check in is super-organized and I have never waited anymore than ten minutes to see a doctor. Then, when I need to see a specialist, or get a test done, I'm doing that within ten more minutes. The last time I was in a socialized hospital in Asia, I saw multiple doctors, had a cat scan, was out in about 2 hours, and paid about $2. Oh yeah, the tax rate in this country is much lower than in ours. Think single digits.

The insurance junta in this country is what drives up costs, and makes the whole system fiscally inefficient, including education. Health care costs are not the primary reason why taxes are so high Europe.

How can a major metro ER be as bad as the one I described in my city, with all of the insurance money that runs through that hospital each day?

One reason is because we DON'T have socialized medicine, and the inner city poor NEED to go to the ER for basic care, and therefore overcrowd it, instead of being able to make a normal appointment like everyone else. The cost of basic care isn't regulated, but rather hyper-inflated, and so you have a bunch of people who cant afford it and clog the system at the bottom.

The whole system is broken precisely because basic patient care is a for profit enterprise, that isn't market driven, but hyper inflated due to the effects of private insurance on the market.

You sound like you drank some kool aid without experiencing first world socialized medicine for yourself.

Your wait time in an ER is heavily influenced by the time of day you go, as well as the socioeconomic composition of the area.

Oh, and healthcare doesn't magically cost less in other places. The only objective difference is the massive problem with the cost of malpractice in the USA.

It is possible to cut corners in other areas, by using older machines and procedures, using doctors with less training and paying them very low wages, and by having poorly maintained facilities.

A $2 bill, if true, just means that someone else paid for you.

The kool aid comment at the end was cute of you. But I remember a wise man telling me that if you wrestle in the mud with a pig you get dirty, and the pig likes it.

[DrArete]

(05-27-2010 05:45 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(05-27-2010 01:46 AM)DrArete Wrote:  

The training of US doctors is FAR more rigorous and expensive than anywhere else in the world.

Perhaps more expensive, but the more rigorous part isn't true. In any country with a high standard of care, the training almost certainly on par. For instance, in socialized France, which supposedly has the best care in the world, I'm sure that you will find the physician training at least as rigorous, if not more. They have a much more rigorous secondary school system compared to anywhere in North America, and so it follows that they likely wouldn't slack in the physician training department.

Sorry, but that simply isn't true.

In general American education sucks, but the long end of the bell curve is fantastic.

And med school students represent the elite of that system.

The selection process for med school in the US is very very hard, in europe you just have to get a above average score on an SAT like test when you are 17, in the USA you have to bust your ass for 4 years in hard science courses, take the MCAT, do very well, rock your interviews, and then, you get to start at age 22, if you are lucky.

The four year curriculum of American med schools is brutal, and the comprehensiveness of exams like the Step 1 really is greater than the equivalent in other countries.

If you look at the number of peer reviewed medical articles cited per capita, no other country comes close to the USA.

[hydrogonian]

(05-27-2010 06:04 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

(05-27-2010 05:45 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

(05-27-2010 01:46 AM)DrArete Wrote:  

The training of US doctors is FAR more rigorous and expensive than anywhere else in the world.

Perhaps more expensive, but the more rigorous part isn't true. In any country with a high standard of care, the training almost certainly on par. For instance, in socialized France, which supposedly has the best care in the world, I'm sure that you will find the physician training at least as rigorous, if not more. They have a much more rigorous secondary school system compared to anywhere in North America, and so it follows that they likely wouldn't slack in the physician training department.

Sorry, but that simply isn't true.

In general American education sucks, but the long end of the bell curve is fantastic.

And med school students represent the elite of that system.

The selection process for med school in the US is very very hard, in europe you just have to get a above average score on an SAT like test when you are 17, in the USA you have to bust your ass for 4 years in hard science courses, take the MCAT, do very well, rock your interviews, and then, you get to start at age 22, if you are lucky.

The four year curriculum of American med schools is brutal, and the comprehensiveness of exams like the Step 1 really is greater than the equivalent in other countries.

If you look at the number of peer reviewed medical articles cited per capita, no other country comes close to the USA.

You think that comparing medical article publication, on a country by country basis, is a reliable indicator of the quality of doctor training in the USA? Maybe, but its difficult to compare.

First, are you talking about the total articles per capita, or the per capita for physicians? Do you have the data on a per capita basis inclusive of only physicians?

Second, are you including articles written in other languages or only english?

Third, are your sources for this information capable of sourcing the full gamut of published articles in other languages?

All of this is relevant to your claim.

Also, your statement about just having to do well on an SAT type of test in Europe, as an indicator as to the quality of medical training, isn't consistent with the general level of care available there. Either this statement isn't true, its missing a huge component of information, or else there is a vetting process which assures that only high caliber physicians make it to practice.

School, in general, is very competitive in France (my example), and passing an SAT type test to get into med school wouldn't be consistent with the general high educational standards there. Whether or not the Step 1 is or isn't more difficult is sort of irrelevant if the entire medical education process isn't also compared.

I agree that the best level of care in the USA, and I mean the very best (Cleveland, etc), can match anywhere in the world, but I don't think that the average level of care matches up to the average level of care in the countries aforementioned. This is from both experience and world healthcare rankings.

I'm not saying that it has everything to do with education, as the broken system plays a large part in it. But without the national average level of care on par to match your assertion, its hard to believe that the USA is top in the medical arena. The stats just don't match up. And averages do count more than taking the best of the best as an example of superiority, imo.

[Pepini]

(05-27-2010 05:50 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

One of the main differences between Europe and US health systems is the liability of doctors. In the US you seem to pursue the doctors with countless law suits. And the value of the payments are ridiculously high. I´m not defending that doctors shouldn´t be liable. But you have to understand that they are in a different category than other jobs.
This was told to me by a criminal law teacher who said something that if Europe would do the same than US regarding the liability of doctors prices would rise.

The difference probably goes further beyond health system, but I believe European health system is better than the US. It´s unthinkable a person should not receive health treatment cause of money. That´s a basic need. From what I heard the privatization of UK health system made them drop abysmally in health care statistics.
You can´t make money out of health systems! You can try to make it work the most eficiently posible, but profit. The principle in the mind of the doctor when deciding the treatment for the patient should be the best for the patient and not what which treatment will give more profit.

A good friend of mine is a doctor. From what I understand the majority of doctors don´t study medicine cause of money. They do it cause they believe in doing good. All the doctors I know have very solid principles. They major flaw is protecting each other when something goes wrong and the subsidizing that some receive from Pharmaceutical companies in return of prescribing a certain medicine.

I don´t think the creation of a european military force would change health system. But I don´t have any data on this. I remenber once reading that Europe is the treasure and US the safety bolt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html

(05-27-2010 05:50 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

A small percentage of doctors do it because they think they are changing the world.
Most wake up somewhere after MS2 when plowing through 2000 pages of Robbins Pathology.

Of course, any pre med will spout the Gandhi's second coming BS, but when they get out into the real world, they want to get paid for busting their ass through abusive residencies, and working 24 hr shifts at the hospital, and dealing with bad cases and worse patients.

The same thing happens with law school - every first year tool thinks they are going to be doing human rights law, and defend homeless people from evil property developers while locking up African dictators on the weekend, but by third year, they are all willing to knife each other in the back for a Big Law corporate job.

The vast majority of doctors (excluding dentists and plastic) I know do it because of some Ghandi bullshit. Of course most of them are already wealthy so money is not something on their mind.

Please do not put lawyers and doctors on the same bag. Perhaps judges and doctors. But never lawyers and doctors. I knew a lot of law students, the goals are money, power and status.

(05-27-2010 05:50 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

Yes, you can and should try and make money out of health systems. The government does a terrible job of managing just about any large scale enterprise except for war.

Explain me how can profit and well being of patients be put together. Simply because for achieving profit you will sometimes have to neglect the well being of the patients. The hospital will prioritize treatments that gives more profit and refuse the ones that don´t. I guess you haven´t learned anything from the actual finantial crise when you let only greed take it´s course. Greed is not good(at least in this case). Ambition is.

I knew this was beyond health systems. There are things that are meant to be public. Even Adam Smith agreed on this.

(05-27-2010 05:50 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

Healthcare is not a right, and the sooner the people realize that, the better. It is a finite resource. Too bad that's the way it works, but its true.

It´s a basic or fundamental right. The right for health care probably exists in every constitution in Europe. What you don´t seem to understand is that when basic rights are not provided soon come chaos.

When I hear people talk about finite resources I always remenber a guy called Malthus. Read him up. Guess what he was WRONG, but the nefast consequences of his idiotic thesis are obvious.

(05-27-2010 05:50 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

I don't know where you get your facts or imagination. Healthcare here in Spain is in crisis. The number of medical errors, and the incompetency of many doctors is appaling. Guess what happens when you pay doctors a crap salary? The best and brightest dont pursue medicine.

Here´s some more imagination for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO's_ranki...re_systems

Do indulge me in explaining why in the first 20 countries, 17 are europeans. Please also explain me why is the US ranked bellow Morocco or Saudi Arabia. BTW Spain is ranked 7th.

I guess for the average american Joe knowing that US as the best doctors in some fields gives a lot of confort when he can´t simply go to the hospital to visit them because he will not be able to pay off his bill.

(05-27-2010 05:50 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

Oh, and doctors generally advocate for their patients, it is the insurance companies who don't want to pay for many procedures in the USA.

Thank you for your pitty, but you can keep it to yourself. So basically you know the system don´t work, but defend it...

(05-27-2010 05:50 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

It is simply not possible to give everyone top quality medical care. There aren't enough supplies, doctors, beds, and machines.

Again with this Malthus shit.

(05-27-2010 05:50 PM)DrArete Wrote:  

Doctors are not above self interest. Do you have any idea of the amount of training there is? MCAT, Step1, Step2, Step3, Residency, Fellowship, etc etc etc

I can only talk about Portuguese and French reality.