[megatron]

(11-02-2012 07:54 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 01:59 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

You like the religion but don't actually believe it. Or you're not willing to compromise on being a pussy hound. You're remaking the religion in your own image, appointing yourself God and worshiping your own reflection. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but standard fare among people who want the trappings of religion but none of the obligations and restraints.

Take an art history course, read some philosophy, maybe you'll get over it.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

Why's he asking us for advice rather than his minister, rabbi, or spiritual adviser?

He's looking for us to come up with clever rationalizations that will allow him to live a godless life while "putting God first."

That's some women bullshit and we gotta call each other out on that stuff.

If the guy is a man, he needs to own his decisions. If he believes in God and takes his religion serious, talk to his spiritual advisers and do as they advise.

Otherwise we may as well just insert a rationalization hamster wheel.

why are you assuming I didn't ask any spiritual advisers? I have. A priest and a rabbi (I'm friends with one, a very wise man).

And what am I rationalizing here? Because I have a desire to believe in God and attend church, I must force myself to get married even though the deck is stacked against me and my future children? This isn't the 50's, where both men, women and their children benefitted from marriage: there are grave consequences for many men who get married these days, legal, financial, emotional and even lethal (a significant number of men become impoverished and/or commit suicide after getting divorce raped). Have you been living under a rock?

And look at big Righteous Alpha over here! He's never rationalized anything in his entire life, no sir! He's a real MANNN! Life is so easy, everything is either black or white! We all live in a vacuum, where we all have limitless choices, and men and women both live in a leveled playing field!

Your posts smacks of knee-jerk assumptions and a myopic, overly simplified worldview. Post something less dumb in the future.

[megatron]

(11-02-2012 08:29 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 07:54 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

He's looking for us to come up with clever rationalizations that will allow him to live a godless life while "putting God first."

That's some women bullshit and we gotta call each other out on that stuff.

Otherwise we may as well just insert a rationalization hamster wheel.

This is the default state of religion in the West now.

I got familiar with a traditional sect. I increasingly saw it as a bunch of falsehoods and myths. But I could respect the traditionalists for being consistent, and living a more or less devout life, according to the rules set by ancestors from thousands of years ago. I have no desire to convince them they are wrong either. The more liberal denominations, on the other hand, were far worse.

The progressives would dilute and adulterate the religion so that it fit their TRUE faith. For instance, the traditional rites don't give much of a leadership role to women? Oh, God obviously didn't mean that, now we know better, let's rewrite the rites. Either you accept the religion as divine, as the work of God, and consequently its authority as real and eternal, or you're a heretic. Anything in the middle is just rationalizing to make yourself feel good. If God didn't write it, as the liberal sects believe, what authority does it have? The whole thing unravels.

People have sentimental attachments, and they want to keep them. I get that. But in wanting to keep two mutually exclusive beliefs, eg sexual liberation and Catholicism, you've got to bend on one or the other or both. 'Compromise' makes a whore out of you. Better to just be honest with yourself. Either choose one, or both and acknowledge that you're a sinner in the hands of an angry God...

I see four kinds of people:

1. Heretics: People who don't believe in any faith.

2. Traditionalists: People who have faith, and consistently observe it in its more orthodox forms.

3. Sinners: People who profess to believe, but routinely sin. The Mediterranean Mode.

4. Progressives: The people who rewrite their religion every generation to suit the latest wave of intellectual fads.

And, like WestIndianArchie said, if you ain't fucking, you ain't playing. You could do things to make yourself more appealing, even learn game. But without the option of having sex with different women at a moment's notice, you can't be a pickup artist.

There's a reason why I said "fledgling pick up artist." I'm not, nor do I ever, plan on taking becoming a serious PUA. I practice inner and outer game, voraciously read and participate in the manosphere, but I still seek relationships with worthy women, however rare they may be these days. I'm not a guy who's life goal is to fuck as many bitches as I can.

[MikeCF]

(11-02-2012 09:09 PM)megatron Wrote:  

why are you assuming I didn't ask any spiritual advisers? I have. A priest and a rabbi (I'm friends with one, a very wise man).

You didn't like the answer. Otherwise you wouldn't be looking for an out.

I went to a religious college. Everyone fucked outside of marriage.

Ask a minister or spiritual figure, and they quash that shit and say it's wrong. It clearly is wrong to fuck outside of marriage. That's not debatable.

So the kids would just ask each other for rationalization and ignore the "out of touch" preachers.

Just be honest with yourself.

You don't want to follow your religion.

Now start asking yourself if your religion even makes sense.

Then you'll really start getting all this "red pill" stuff.

[megatron]

(11-02-2012 09:26 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 09:09 PM)megatron Wrote:  

why are you assuming I didn't ask any spiritual advisers? I have. A priest and a rabbi (I'm friends with one, a very wise man).

You didn't like the answer. Otherwise you wouldn't be looking for an out.

I went to a religious college. Everyone fucked outside of marriage.

Ask a minister or spiritual figure, and they quash that shit and say it's wrong. It clearly is wrong to fuck outside of marriage. That's not debatable.

So the kids would just ask each other for rationalization and ignore the "out of touch" preachers.

Just be honest with yourself.

You don't want to follow your religion.

Now start asking yourself if your religion even makes sense.

Then you'll really start getting all this "red pill" stuff.

The rabbi reluctantly agreed with my views completely. And he's been married for 30 years, haS 4 kids, is a staunch conservative, very religious, the whole 9. He actually expressed some sympathy for my generation because we have to pay for excessive government spending of the baby boomers, have less opportunities for financial independence and having a disadvantage to marry as a man.

I came to this thread to see what you guys think, because I respect most of your opinions, not to be attacked for having a woman's rationalization hamster. Especially when I'm doing this with self-awareness of the contradictory nature of some of my choices.

[Menace]

Do what you want now. Ask for forgiveness on your deathbed. Enter heaven. Isn't that how it works?

[MikeCF]

(11-02-2012 09:32 PM)megatron Wrote:  

The rabbi reluctantly agreed with my views completely.

Your rabbi told you that because there is a shortage of marriable women that you should instead become a "PUA"?

You shouldn't instead sacrifice and suffer, if the dating market is bad, because that would bring you closer God?

Sorry, bro, I'm not buying that your rabbi is telling you it's OK to go bang sluts.

But do your thing.

[megatron]

(11-02-2012 09:51 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 09:32 PM)megatron Wrote:  

The rabbi reluctantly agreed with my views completely.

Your rabbi told you that because there is a shortage of marriable women that you should instead become a "PUA"?

You shouldn't instead sacrifice and suffer, if the dating market is bad, because that would bring you closer God?

Sorry, bro, I'm not buying that your rabbi is telling you it's OK to go bang sluts.

But do your thing.

Where did I say he encouraged me to bang sluts? Although, he did tell me several times, before I started reading game seriously, that I should "play the field" as much as I can during my 20's. also, after I told revealed to him that I cheated on a g/f of 3 years, and that I felt so guilty that I wanted to tell her, he said "don't ever do that. Just don't cheat again." He's very practical. Judaism is more practical and grounded in reality than Christianity.

So are you religious? What's your story

[Samseau]

(11-02-2012 07:58 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 07:31 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

He agreed with all of this and told me what he thought was the only way to safely navigate the world as a man today, and please God: Celibacy.

Yeah, Judeo-Christian texts aren't too hard to understand.

You marry one woman or you don't fuck.

Guys don't like to hear that...So we get all sorts of rationalization hamsters going.

It's actually more hardcore than that. The sin is "lust", not just fucking. That means if you even look at a woman and get a boner you've sinned as much as a man who bangs a woman.

The man who masturbates over a pornstar is as much of a sinner as the pornstar herself, according to Christ.

Lust is lust. Who is strong is enough to hold themselves up to such an ideal? Less than 1%? Just the omega males who couldn't get laid if they tried so it's easy for them to shun women completely?

[Basil Ransom]

(11-02-2012 10:11 PM)megatron Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 09:51 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 09:32 PM)megatron Wrote:  

The rabbi reluctantly agreed with my views completely.

Your rabbi told you that because there is a shortage of marriable women that you should instead become a "PUA"?

You shouldn't instead sacrifice and suffer, if the dating market is bad, because that would bring you closer God?

Sorry, bro, I'm not buying that your rabbi is telling you it's OK to go bang sluts.

But do your thing.

Where did I say he encouraged me to bang sluts? Although, he did tell me several times, before I started reading game seriously, that I should "play the field" as much as I can during my 20's. also, after I told revealed to him that I cheated on a g/f of 3 years, and that I felt so guilty that I wanted to tell her, he said "don't ever do that. Just don't cheat again." He's very practical. Judaism is more practical and grounded in reality than Christianity.

So are you religious? What's your story

Guarantee he wasn't an Orthodox Rabbi. All the other sects are just hucksters who adulterate Judaism, because if they didn't their flock would leave them entirely. Non-Orthodox Judaism is far more concerned with getting Obama re-elected and promoting homosexuality than condemning pre-marital sex.

None of us are religious. We're just saying, respect religion for what it is, be honest with yourself, and take it or leave it. It isn't a salad bar where you take some things and ignore the others.

I'm actually surprised that other people here are fairly respectful of religion even though they aren't believers. Maybe once you're getting laid, you really don't give a fuck if other people choose to believe or not. 'Evangelical Atheists' are incredibly annoying.

[megatron]

Meh. I'm gonna treat it like a salad bar. Hypocritical? some might say.

Don't really care. I'm making my own rules. Whatever I do, as long as I do it with some direction and balls, I'll be good.

[RobP]

Basil, I'm wondering why you don't think religion is a salad bar? Modernity itself seems to allow for "pastiche"-that is, picking, choosing and combining. I don't see why megatron can't combine religion and Game. Sure, I get you that it's not rigorously logical, but how many modern lives can be?

[RobP]

Megaton-messages just crossed-I'm with you!

[megatron]

And it's not about just wanting to be saved or something: that's the furthest thing from my mind. Only a tiny part of me believes that heaven could exist. After growing up in a secular, dysfunctional household with my domineering shrieking harridan of a mother, I began to long for a sort of solace. Prayer has been helping me a bit. I've still only been to church once in the past 6 months: I've been planning to go back Saturday, but can't because of the gas shortage here on the East Coast.

I also like a lot of the day-to-day rules that are there. I'm trying to respect my parents, no matter how hypercritical and overbearing they both are with me (I'm fucking 30, lost my job and now back living with them).

Over the past two years, when I was a special ed teacher in one of the worst parts of Brooklyn, I tried to be Christlike as much as I could. I had to be.

Some of my students were very difficult. I had to summon all my will power many times: to handle things calmly, never scream, never show fear or even nervousness etc. And this last year, I had to deal with so much shit from administration (fucking cunt of a principal: manjaw, cursing, screaming: the works, my assistants (who are mostly useless sacks of union-protected uneducated shits), and a severley disabled Cerebral Palsy student who would react violently to me and virtuallly everyone in my room. Many, many times during each day.

I keep recognizing more and more how much important wisdom is in this book. And how, unfortunately, most of it has become distorted or discarded altogether in the society I live in.

[megatron]

I now realize it's the opposite with you Basil and MikeCP: you have very little regard for religion. At least those from the Western world.

[Laser]

I really don't understand all the rationalization going on in this thread. Christianity in all of its various denominational forms have prescripts for atonement and forgiveness, but central to all of them is the genuine desire and effort to live life by the tenets of the religion, the most pertinent to this discussion being that to LUST IS TO SIN.

Now if someone wants to pick and choose aspects of the religion to apply to their life, that's perfectly fine, but they cannot call themselves a follower of the faith. ITS ALL OR NOTHING.

Now if we want to start discussing how religion as written is poorly equipped to handle the modern dating environment - that is another discussion entirely, which calls into question the need to be religious at all. Note - religious does not mean "believing in a higher power". It means ascribing to all of the beliefs and tenets of a particular religion.

[megatron]

All of you guys who are so crititcal of the rationalization in this thread, are you guys currently or formerly religious? Why are you so steadfast in your belief that one must follow EVERY rule of a religion or abandon it entirely?

I'm curious. Is it because you guys use to be Salad Bar Christians? Or were you pious, 100% religious and saw the folly of salad barring from other members of your flock?

[Samseau]

(11-03-2012 06:51 AM)Laser Wrote:  

Now if someone wants to pick and choose aspects of the religion to apply to their life, that's perfectly fine, but they cannot call themselves a follower of the faith. ITS ALL OR NOTHING.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true at all. There are countless Saints who claim one can be a Christian even if they sin because no man is perfect.

All that matters is the intent, and even if a man sins as long as he continually repents and works to overcome his sin, even if it should take him his entire life, then God will forgive him.


The most famous example of this is Christ forgiving the thief on the cross.

[Basil Ransom]

(11-03-2012 08:07 AM)megatron Wrote:  

Why are you so steadfast in your belief that one must follow EVERY rule of a religion or abandon it entirely?

I'm curious. Is it because you guys use to be Salad Bar Christians? Or were you pious, 100% religious and saw the folly of salad barring from other members of your flock?

I don't want to make this about me, or why I 'feel' this way. That's a feminine style of discussion.

Traditional religions are a coherent whole. They're like a tent, where if you pull out one of the stakes, the whole thing collapses, over time if not immediately. It's a fundamental weakness of modern beliefs, that if we change how we behave, we think there probably won't be any negative consequences. Liberalize divorce laws? Oh, no, why would you think that leads to more broken families? Legalize abortion? Why would that make more women into whores and bastard-mongers? I'm not staking out a position on these, just saying people refuse to acknowledge the consequences of the changes they've incurred. They've already moved on to the next front like homosexual marriage. They don't have the time to reflect on the changes they've made, and they wouldn't want to anyway, lest they question their beliefs.

Sure, maybe, you can ignore some of the precepts and still maintain some vestigial observance. Or you acknowledge that you're a sinner and try to work on it. But by deciding at the outset that you won't adopt certain beliefs, by rationalizing your sins as decent, that you won't even try to reform yourself, you're debasing the religion. You're asserting your authority over God's. You're just worshiping yourself. No religion can survive that. Then it's just your own little personal belief system.

Sexual restraint is an essential aspect of traditional faith. Probably the most essential, given how ubiquitous it is. Disregarding it makes a mockery of faith, and makes the 'tent' collapse.

There's nothing wrong with admiring certain saints and men of faith for their character. I do. But it doesn't make me a believer. It just sounds like you want to find people who are in this same no man's land and feel good about that.

[Laser]

(11-03-2012 02:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 06:51 AM)Laser Wrote:  

Now if someone wants to pick and choose aspects of the religion to apply to their life, that's perfectly fine, but they cannot call themselves a follower of the faith. ITS ALL OR NOTHING.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true at all. There are countless Saints who claim one can be a Christian even if they sin because no man is perfect.

All that matters is the intent, and even if a man sins as long as he continually repents and works to overcome his sin, even if it should take him his entire life, then God will forgive him.


The most famous example of this is Christ forgiving the thief on the cross.

You are miss understanding my statement. All or nothing means that you strive to follow all the tenets of the religion, not just those that you pick and through. I agree completely that it is all about intent. No one is perfect, everyone sins. But if you are trying to be a PUA, your intent is to lust, to become an expert at seducing multiple women for sex outside of marriage. The intent with which you approach living life is at odds with the religion.

[megatron]

I'll ask again, have any of you naysayers ever devoted a significant portion of your life to religion?

[MikeCF]

(11-03-2012 04:51 PM)megatron Wrote:  

I'll ask again, have any of you naysayers ever devoted a significant portion of your life to religion?

Yes.

My personal experience is irrelevant.

You know what the righteous path is.

You're just looking for a way to live our godless, hedonistic lifestyle while claiming to serve God.

It can't be done. Every guy is telling you.

Every guy in this thread sees through it.

Why ask for advice and then get butt hurt when every guy tells you what's up

You're mad because the truth hurts.

But the truth will also set you free!

[Laser]

Yes. I attended private protestant christian schools up through college, so I'm quite knowledgeable about the actual content of the Bible. But as Mike says above, my personal experience is irrelevant. This isn't hard. It's a simple logic exercise. Christianity says don't lust, don't have sex out side of marriage. If you stumble, ask forgiveness and strive not to do it again. Ergo, striving to become a PUA, a lifestyle who's objective is sinful, is striving to sin.

[Samseau]

(11-03-2012 04:18 PM)Laser Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 02:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 06:51 AM)Laser Wrote:  

Now if someone wants to pick and choose aspects of the religion to apply to their life, that's perfectly fine, but they cannot call themselves a follower of the faith. ITS ALL OR NOTHING.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true at all. There are countless Saints who claim one can be a Christian even if they sin because no man is perfect.

All that matters is the intent, and even if a man sins as long as he continually repents and works to overcome his sin, even if it should take him his entire life, then God will forgive him.


The most famous example of this is Christ forgiving the thief on the cross.

You are miss understanding my statement. All or nothing means that you strive to follow all the tenets of the religion, not just those that you pick and through. I agree completely that it is all about intent. No one is perfect, everyone sins. But if you are trying to be a PUA, your intent is to lust, to become an expert at seducing multiple women for sex outside of marriage. The intent with which you approach living life is at odds with the religion.

I don't think anyone intends to lust. Some people claim you can control one's lust but I think this is bullshit. Lust is as natural as taking a shit. The human specie would not be here if not for lust.

Thus if a man's intent is to find love and happiness with women, and he becomes a master seducer to do so, how exactly would God judge his intent? No one knows. Will God understand the predicament man is placed in because of his sexual nature? Will he forgive?

That is why another teaching of Christ is to never judge, as no one really has any idea of how God will judge.

Thus the seducer is at odds with the religion, but is it really any fault of his own?

[Laser]

(11-03-2012 05:32 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 04:18 PM)Laser Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 02:47 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 06:51 AM)Laser Wrote:  

Now if someone wants to pick and choose aspects of the religion to apply to their life, that's perfectly fine, but they cannot call themselves a follower of the faith. ITS ALL OR NOTHING.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true at all. There are countless Saints who claim one can be a Christian even if they sin because no man is perfect.

All that matters is the intent, and even if a man sins as long as he continually repents and works to overcome his sin, even if it should take him his entire life, then God will forgive him.


The most famous example of this is Christ forgiving the thief on the cross.

You are miss understanding my statement. All or nothing means that you strive to follow all the tenets of the religion, not just those that you pick and through. I agree completely that it is all about intent. No one is perfect, everyone sins. But if you are trying to be a PUA, your intent is to lust, to become an expert at seducing multiple women for sex outside of marriage. The intent with which you approach living life is at odds with the religion.

I don't think anyone intends to lust. Some people claim you can control one's lust but I think this is bullshit. Lust is as natural as taking a shit. The human specie would not be here if not for lust.

Thus if a man's intent is to find love and happiness with women, and he becomes a master seducer to do so, how exactly would God judge his intent? No one knows. Will God understand the predicament man is placed in because of his sexual nature? Will he forgive?

That is why another teaching of Christ is to never judge, as no one really has any idea of how God will judge.

Thus the seducer is at odds with the religion, but is it really any fault of his own?

These questions are a huge part of why I don't ascribe to any religion anymore. Too many questions, no internal logical consistency. Why would God make man with sexual urges then condemn sexual attraction (lust). Seems a little cruel to me.

Regarding the "don't judge" teachings, my understanding of it is the thought is more to "work on your own life, don't worry about judging others". The bible provides very explicit rules about sexual conduct that you are to try to live by. Make it your intent to try with all of your effort to live by those rules. You can preach to others, but you can only control your own actions.

Master seducer means getting good at sleeping with a lot of high quality women. It's not just getting women to fall in love with you without sleeping with them. In order to get good at this, you have to work hard at an endeavor who's end is by definition sinful. I think the intent is pretty clear.

I actually hate religion and the restrictions it places on living life. No sex outside of marriage? Fuck that noise.

[Basil Ransom]

(11-03-2012 05:32 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

I don't think anyone intends to lust. Some people claim you can control one's lust but I think this is bullshit. Lust is as natural as taking a shit. The human specie would not be here if not for lust.

Thus if a man's intent is to find love and happiness with women, and he becomes a master seducer to do so, how exactly would God judge his intent? No one knows. Will God understand the predicament man is placed in because of his sexual nature? Will he forgive?

That is why another teaching of Christ is to never judge, as no one really has any idea of how God will judge.

Thus the seducer is at odds with the religion, but is it really any fault of his own?

The traditional approach is not to 'test yourself' but to remove yourself from temptation. You can't go broke gambling if you never enter the casino.

I heard someone analogize lust as the opposite of hunger. With hunger, if you eat enough, you feel satisfied. With lust, you fuck, and you want even more. Go without sex or masturbation, and your lust will eventually subside. It's a flawed analogy, but I think there's some truth to it, regarding the nature of sexual hunger.

Regardless, I think all these arguments of 'God can't exist, because if he did, he wouldn't be so cruel as to make us this way' are a little daft. I don't see why God couldn't. Maybe God is a vengeful wrathful God. Or He wanted to make it hard for us to live righteously. At the least, you don't need that to see religion as false - the prospect of fitting all the world's animals on a boat, i.e. the story of the flood, does that for you.

I find it hilarious that us players, (Me, Samseau, MikeCF, Laser, et al) view religion with more integrity than the vast majority of Christians or Jews. Emotional distance lets you be honest.