[NoBalls]

This analysis covers 2009-2012. The reason that I picked this time frame is because I decided to focus almost exclusively on night game in bars - no online game and very little day game.

Here are the categories I'm going to use to break down the lays for analysis:
SNL - Brought her home that night and either had sex that night or the next day before she left my place.
NNL - Next night lay - failed to take her home that night but met up the very next night and had sex with her that night.
BCL - Booty call lay - failed to have sex on the night I met her but she booty called me so we had sex the next time we met.
1DL - First date lay - took her out a few days later and had sex on the first date.
MDL - Took multiple dates to have sex.
MUL - Meetup Lay - Met at Meetup group, not bar - not relevant to analysis

Here is the breakdown of lays based on the categories defined above. The left number is the total number of lays in the category. The number in parentheses.
SNL - 7 (6)
NNL - 3 (0)
BCL - 1 (1)
1DL - 1 (1)
MDL - 1 (0)
MUL - 1 - This lay not included in analysis

Looking at these numbers, I see the following
Lays met after 1AM - 75% SNL
Lays met before 1AM - 20% SNL

Conclusion
If looking for SNL the best time is later in the evening after 1AM. Last call in NYC is 4AM.

Open Questions
1. Are any of you guys good at getting lays early in the evening?
2. Is my difficulty getting lays early in the evening because my game sucks? Or is it normal to have more difficulty early in the night for those of you with good game?

I'd also be interested to see the breakdown of lays of other guys in this forum.

[void]

1 am is THE critical point. after 1 AM (sometimes 2 AM) women will start to leave the venue and the ratio will become a cockfest hitting rock bottom at 4 AM. thats my experience in europe.
so i should approach 0:30 to 2 AM, i usually have no success pulling later. there are only the bad scrapes left at that time anyway. most venues reach their peak ratio ~3 hours before closing time, this when you have to be there

[Basil Ransom]

Relevant thread: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-5462.html

I find the critical point to be 12 AM, in both of the major places I've lived in the States. Last call would range from 1 AM to 2 AM. After midnight, the ratio would worsen, and girls would increasingly see guys as sleazy, try-hard, and desperate. It starts getting tough to get traction with any group after 12. They start to feel like they'd be total sluts if they took anyone home at this point, and that all the good men are taken...

At 10-10:30 PM, girls seem to maintain their distance. They're a little chatty, but non-committal. In my experience, your core approaching time is 10:30- midnight, whether last call is at 1 AM or 2. Maybe that extends to 12:30 for a 2AM last call. I like an early last call, because it's next to impossible to drag some chicks out of a bar until it closes. Girls go with their best option at that moment; and while the bar is open, you are not her best option. If she knows about a cool after-party, for instance, she's likely to do that instead of fuck you right then. Girls love to attention whore, and she can't really do that when she's getting railed in the confines of your bed. And dick is cheap. Basically, she fucks you when there's nothing better to do. Maybe that makes me sound like a bad player, but that's been my experience, especially with party chicks. Girls aren't *that* hungry for dick, that they'll forsake other opportunities for it.

If you can provide a girl with a fun 'extra-curricular' non-sexual activity, ahem, that involves going to a private spot like someone's bedroom, then it will be a cinch to fuck her after. I can't and won't do this, but there are those that can and do. I wonder if you could do it with food though...

Of course, special events have a different timeline, but often follow a similar trajectory.

In the other thread I wrote:

"In my experience, past a certain point, most girls close up the vag. "It's late, it's past X time, deciding to go home with a guy now is just sleazy and desperate, and I'm not sleazy or desperate." And maybe even "I'm too drunk now to do this." This gloom settles over her for not meeting a cute guy earlier, if she was receptive in the first place."

It's highly location dependent though. All in all, the girls I pull for SNLs like to party, and it's easier to get them to walk away from the party when... there is no party left.

[Juan Antonio]

Mark Manson has an excellent article on this:

http://postmasculine.com/how-to-get-laid...-and-clubs

Usually I get there early, earlier the better. Girls are more receptive earlier and haven’t been approached yet that night. I approach the best-looking first then work my way down. If hot girls enter, I try to be the first guy to approach them that night. Getting out early is huge and so few guys do it. I think it’s because they’re either nervous to go out or they’re getting drunk cheap by pre-gaming. At 10PM, venues will be 65% girls, most of whom have not been approached yet. By 1AM, they’ll be 35% girls, most of whom have been approached 5+ times. On top of that, if you meet a girl at 10:30PM, you’ve got an extra 1-2 hours with her, which ups your chances quite a bit.

Once I meet a girl who I connect with and she’s into me, I screen for logistics and if there are no red flags (birthday party, staying with her sister, lives with mom, etc.), then I stick with her the entire night. I don’t do any more approaches. For some reason this seems to surprise some guys. I have no idea why. But an ideal night for me is: show up at 10:20PM, find the hottest girl, approach, by 10:30PM she’s into me, and I spend the entire night hanging with her and her friends. At 2AM she comes home with me.

If after 10 minutes I’m not feeling her or she’s not feeling me, I drop her. Right then and there. I’ve wasted way too many hours over the last six years chasing girls that either were lukewarm on me or I was lukewarm on them. There are so many women out at night there’s no point in spending time with a girl you’re not excited about and who’s not excited with you. Seriously, drop them if it’s not going anywhere. I don’t even say goodbye half the time. Hell, I’ve walked away mid-sentence before.

I almost never leave a girl and come back. Unless there’s a legitimate reason, that’s the kiss of death in night game. If you ever tell her, “I’ll be right back,” and aren’t back within 3 minutes, 99% chance she’s either meets another guy or goes completely cold by the time you get back. This is why I tell guys that if you want to get laid at night, you HAVE to ditch the whole, “I need to approach more” mentality. The two are often mutually exclusive. If you have trouble approaching early and often, then practice approaching for a while. But once you’ve got it down, STOP PRACTICING APPROACHING.

Generally, if I’m not set up with a girl by midnight, my chances start to go down very quickly. The majority of my same night lays come from girls I meet earlier, not later.

If I’ve got a girl, I use the 2-3 hours with her to build a strong emotional connection, get to know her friends, introduce her to my friends, drink together, bounce to another venue or two, etc. This way, at the very LEAST you’re going to get a super-solid number from her and the first date will be a lay-up. At best she’ll go home with you that night. On rare occasions, you can get a girl to come back with you early (like 11:30), but it almost never happens. At 2AM I feel out her logistics and if there’s an opening (i.e., she’s not anybody’s ride, or nobody drove her), then I’ll go for the pull right then and there (this is why living in a city like NYC or Boston, or staying in Vegas is such a massive advantage). If there are rides involved, then I try to work out some sort of after-party or after-hours eating thing. By now, if your game is tight, your girl should be good to sleep with you and has been for a while. The after-hours thing is mainly to hang out with her friends and let them get comfortable with you being with her outside a club situation. Let your girl handle her friends at all times when it comes to logistics. Arguing with a cockblock is a losing battle. Always. The way to win is to let your girl handle them for you. If your girl likes you and you’ve been doing a good job turning her on then she’ll take care of everything. Seriously. It’s usually here that the, “well, he can come back with us,” will come out and nobody will argue with her. For some reason it feels more natural since you’ve already come out and eaten with them or whatever. Even after this, some times it’ll still be a no-go though. But hey, you have a super solid number and just spent 4 hours flirting and (ideally) kissing a really hot girl. Worse nights have happened.

If a girl seems to be on the prude/conservative side, I stick it out anyway assuming I really like her. The reason is that phone numbers at night are more or less worthless until you’ve spent at least an hour with a girl. So you might as well spend the whole night with her and see where things go. I find it to be more enjoyable anyway. And you’d actually be surprised how many “prude” girls actually end up coming through when you develop a real spark with them.

But it’s worth mentioning this again, if I don’t like a girl I’m talking to, or don’t feel welcome with her group after 10 minutes. I leave. Not everyone in this world is compatible. Accept that and move on.

If I don’t have a girl by 12:30 or 1:00 (assuming we’re closing at 2AM), then things shift. I call this “garbage time.” In American sports, if one team is losing by a lot, but there’s still a lot of time left to play and they put in all of their bench players, they call it “garbage time.” This is what I call the 12:30AM to 2AM window.

There are many reasons for garbage time being what garbage time is: 1) most hot girls looking for a guy have already met him, taking them off the market; 2) Many girls have gone home, and more guys have shown up 3) Every girl has now been approached 4-8 times that night and is really getting tired of it; 4) most of the girls still available are unattractive and/or very drunk; 5) most of the guys are finally drunk enough to have the balls to approach, giving you newfound competition.

Garbage time sucks. I hate it. Once in a blue moon, you’ll find a hot girl who somehow slipped through another guy’s hands. But, usually you’re stuck with the drunken leftovers of the night, what I affectionately refer to as “the slop.”

In garbage time, your blow outs are going to get higher and higher the closer 2AM nears. But the girls who do hook are going to be easier and easier. So whereas at 11PM, 60% of girls in the bar would have talked to you, but would have been only mildly interested, now it’ll be like 10% of girls, but that 10% is very drunk, very sloppy, and probably desperate. So they’re easy, if you can find them.

This is when you get quick 20-30 minute pulls. But honestly, it’s a total crap shoot. If you go outside on the street around this time, it’s even MORE of a crap-shoot. Most girls will blow you off, but every once in a while you can find a drunk girl on the street who’s down to party pretty much right then and there. I have a friend who’s good-looking and sometimes will literally only go out at 1AM and take his shots at these drunk girls and then go home. In my opinion, it’s a little shady, and requires little to no game at all. But whatever.

[Basil Ransom]

Thanks for posting that Juan, matches my observations almost entirely. My main difference with that article:

*I'd still consider phone numbers from 1+ hour conversations worthless. Maybe I'm overestimating the length of conversations I've had, but in any case, refusing to accept phone numbers WILL make you get more same night lays, if everything else is in order. You have to gauge how much integrity your target has, but generally with younger, ADD girls, numbers are worthless.

Pretty small point, otherwise Manson is right on point.

As for what he calls 'the slop,' they're interesting, but altogether rare. These are often chicks who get ADD with almost any man, but if you happen to be her flavor of the half hour when the bar is closing, you might get a SNL from her. The chances of taking home this girl are low, and far inferior as a strategy to what Manson and I suggest. His good-looking friend clearly makes it up in volume. It would be interesting to try his friend's approach, though any time I've tried anything like that, the success rates are abysmal.

[NoBalls]

Thanks for the responses, good insight. I have a couple more personal observations that I will add.

I have noticed that earlier in the night (9 PM - 11:30 PM) the women do open up much easier but but often want to get back to their friends or their friends want to get back to them. It's also easy to get sucked into a time waster conversation that leads to nothing. Sometimes they will invite me to join their group but it gets awkward and I bail and venue change.

Later in the night (after 1AM) most approaches end with a very quick rejection. BUT the approaches that hook often hook really hard.

Three of my really late night SNLs followed this pattern:
1. I approach and the girl hooks really really hard and escalation naturally occurs very fast because she gives green light signals like crazy.
2. The girl tells her friends that she is going to go home with me.
3. We leave together

Two of my really late SNLs followed this pattern.
1. I am just standing there after a string of several brutal rejections from women
2. After 2AM, a girl walks into the bar all alone.
3. I approach her before any other guys do and she hooks hard.
4. We leave together.

It never works out like that earlier in the evening. Earlier in the evening it is very easy to open women and get into conversations but they get bored really easy and quickly. But the late night chicks who hook don't get bored with the boring shit I say. They don't even care what I'm saying. They are just all over me in a way that women are not earlier in the evening.

I also have had countless make-outs late at night but make-outs are much more rare earlier in the evening despite the fact that women open up much more easily. Seems like the same factors are at work.

[XXL]

to me the KEY is to recognize when the venue peaks and pull out the big guns then. but i can point out 2 main timeframes of the night:

SLOW (joining her group)
11PM // enter the venue
11-1AM // relax & unwind, socialize and mingle with people, chat up girls, screen red/yellow/green lights, keep it flirty playful and innocent, join few groups, have fun
1-3AM // amp up the vibe, escalate, pick one most promising group, stick with them, leave the venue with this group and pull your girl after they all split

FAST (stealing the girl)
12-1AM // enter the venue
12-2AM // hit hit hit, escalate from the get go, pull the girl

i've also done combination of both.. i hit up the club at 1-2AM, hit hit hit, danced with hot girl in devil red dress, stayed & chilled with her group, left with them all, went to girl's house at 4AM.



1. Are any of you guys good at getting lays early in the evening?
nope. it happened few times in venues but it was just full moon pickup. pure luck. but at dorm parties the chances are much better (plenty of rooms everywhere and cheap alcohol)

2. Is my difficulty getting lays early in the evening because my game sucks? Or is it normal to have more difficulty early in the night for those of you with good game?
to me it's natural that pulling early is hard. most girls go out to venues with friends to have fun and enjoy their time there. successful early pull is going against many things but it's always fun trying just for the sake of it

[Don_Johnson]

(09-16-2012 02:18 PM)void Wrote:  

1 am is THE critical point. after 1 AM (sometimes 2 AM) women will start to leave the venue and the ratio will become a cockfest hitting rock bottom at 4 AM. thats my experience in europe.
so i should approach 0:30 to 2 AM, i usually have no success pulling later. there are only the bad scrapes left at that time anyway. most venues reach their peak ratio ~3 hours before closing time, this when you have to be there

Very true.

I'm in NYC as well. 1am is the key time, but that should be when you are close to getting the girl to leave. The ideal time to meet is at midnight. That gives you at least an hour to chat, get her drunk, etc.

I've developed a new rule that if there are no worthwhile prospect by 1:00 AM, I just go home. Definitely true - after 2am, it's impossible.

[Juan Antonio]

I'm in a college town and live literally within 2 minutes driving distance from a half dozen bars and clubs. I've been thinking about how to maximize my bang utility, particularly as a young professional with a M-F 9-5 job.

There's a college dive bar nearby that's open 5 nights a week. Drinks are cheap and the college girls get sloppy. Doors open at 10:30. But by 11:30 onwards there are massive lineups. Nothing worse than wasting half your night waiting in line.

I'm a ruthlessly efficient player. I've been thinking about how to get the most bangs for the least time and money invested while flying solo.

Here's my new game plan:

- Drive over at 10:30, walk in, pay $5 cover, get my hand stamped, walk out
- Drive back and chill at home for an hour
- Return to the bar at 12 AM (the stamp allows me to bypass the line)
- Game aggressively in the golden hour (12 - 1 AM). If there are no good prospects by 1 AM drive back home and sleep.

Gaming before 11:30 provides little utility - girls are still sober and I've lost many girls from staying in set too long and running out of gas or external interrupts (washroom, smoke break, cockblocking, friend from school). At 1 AM girls start to leave the venue morphs into a sausagefest. After 1 AM is garbage time.

12 - 1 AM is the ideal window of opportunity for quick lays. Approach aggressively, screen for DTF girls, move her to the dance floor, escalate and bounce her out of the club by 1:30 AM.

Going out 5 nights/wk and applying this ruthlessly efficient strategy should get your dick wet at very little time or cost (1 hour @ $5 per night). And going out on off-nights (Wed, Thurs) allows you to avoid the annoying "big group" effect - no huge cliquey birthday parties and stagettes as these are celebrated on Fri/Sat usually. A 2-set out on a Wednesday night is guaranteed to be seeking dick.

[NoBalls]

Yeah, it's very difficult to open after 1AM but sometimes really good things can happen after 1AM. You could get 10 quick rejections in a row and then bang - a girl is totally into you.

I would say that nothing good ever happens after 2:30 AM. If there are no prospects after 2:30 AM - time to go home.

I think 2AM is the time to enter one last bar and look for a girl who has just broken away from her friends and wants to get laid. Then stick around until 2:30 just in case a random girl walks in looking for a hookup. Then go home.

[NoBalls]

(09-17-2012 01:09 PM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

- Drive over at 10:30, walk in, pay $5 cover, get my hand stamped, walk out
- Drive back and chill at home for an hour
- Return to the bar at 12 AM (the stamp allows me to bypass the line)
- Game aggressively in the golden hour (12 - 1 AM). If there are no good prospects by 1 AM drive back home and sleep.

This is a fucking good idea. There are definitely some places where I can get my hand stamped. Then I can relax, grab a cup of coffee, read a novel on my phone, and enjoy myself. Then I can come back at 12:30 AM when the line is really long and bypass the line. No more standing around for 2 hours waiting for a place to get crowded.

(09-17-2012 01:09 PM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

12 - 1 AM is the ideal window of opportunity for quick lays.

In places where last call is 2AM I'm thinking this is the case. But I'm thing in NYC, the ideal window of opportunity for quick lays is from 1:15 AM - 2:15 AM.

(09-17-2012 01:09 PM)Juan Antonio Wrote:  

Going out 5 nights/wk and applying this ruthlessly efficient strategy should get your dick wet at very little time or cost (1 hour @ $5 per night). And going out on off-nights (Wed, Thurs) allows you to avoid the annoying "big group" effect - no huge cliquey birthday parties and stagettes as these are celebrated on Fri/Sat usually. A 2-set out on a Wednesday night is guaranteed to be seeking dick.

I have not had much luck on weekdays but perhaps my problem is I go too early. Perhaps hitting up a bar at around midnight on weeknights would be a better strategy.

[void]

nice, seems like everyone has similar experiences. now we have to discuss the why.
assuming the you have gamed good from 12-1 AM (4AM is closing time), why does she leave with you at 1.x AM.
1) good game, good vibe
2) ratio still good, she has competition
3) leaving at that time is not that desperate/"shameful" hook up like at 4AM
4) the club is full, no one will notice her departure ("she doesnt look like a slut")

i have started going home early if i wasnt lucky that night, especially when the music sucks or is too bad to just enjoy the rest of the evening. everything else is a waste of time/money/health

[Juan Antonio]

Last call is 2 AM where I am. All bars and clubs shut down at 2:30.

[Samseau]

I can tell you that most of my dance floor lays are fast as hell. After the dance and the connection is made, I'm outta there with her or else the bang almost never happens.

I think I've gotten only 4 lays in the last two years from girls I "hung" with in the venue. Fact is, staying in the same venue for a long period of time diminishes your value.

Don't forget that.

[Hotwheels]

The only times I have pulled "early" SNL's is in hotel bars. As one or the both of us have to work the next morning staying out til 2AM is not the plan from the beginning, so there is a built in time constraint.

And, as we are staying at said hotel, logistics can't be much better. Much like the college parties mentioned above. No fucking around with cabs, driving, etc.

Pull and poke. No muss. No fuss.

[AlbertoDelMuerto]

Anybody know good places to get SNLs in London? Girls here only dress up for attention, I repeat attention! I Haven't yet seen a girl leave with a total stranger. Sometimes drunk chicks are quite rude and obnoxious, they say to me " Go away, go away I don't wanna talk to you or your kind!" I live at a hostel right now, so I can only rely on going back to HER place.