[Matt Forney]

The Way of Men is one of my favorite books in the past ten years. Here's my review.

Re: Jack's sexuality, every time I hear someone complain about how a homo (Jack hates it when people describe him as "gay," even wrote a whole book denouncing gay culture) is incapable of understanding masculinity, I want to laugh at them. I'm friends with Jack in real life; he's a solid, reliable guy. Not one of his detractors would have the balls to impugn his masculinity to his face.

Dismissing someone's arguments because of some unrelated aspect of their persona is bitch behavior. It's what feminists and women do. It has no place among men.

[Roadrunner]

I have read the way of men and I strongly recommend it. It takes a lot of ideas that are out there in the manosphere concerning the role of a man and it breaks it down and explains its origins. It is a great read and even though the author is homosexual it didn't make a difference in the knowledge I gained from that book and it does not make a difference in how much of a man he is (maybe he is the top, not the bottom).

[jackdonovan]

(06-04-2013 10:07 PM)SexualHarrasmentPanda Wrote:  

I have read the way of men and I strongly recommend it. It takes a lot of ideas that are out there in the manosphere concerning the role of a man and it breaks it down and explains its origins. It is a great read and even though the author is homosexual it didn't make a difference in the knowledge I gained from that book and it does not make a difference in how much of a man he is (maybe he is the top, not the bottom).

Yeah, I've been a top for years. I basically fuck men like they are women -- but I'm glad that they're not. I'm banging this jacked rich liberal right now. Probably the best piece of ass I've ever had. I've had sex with women, but I've been with one guy for 14 years, so there is no question of...switching teams...in any meaningful way. He's a good guy who supports me and my work and always has. I have a dude on the side, but it's all on the level, and betraying Lucio -- who became blood-brothers with me for my second book, and has my initials tattooed (by me) on his arm -- because I decided to "explore other ideas for philosophical reasons" would be the homo version of "Eat, Pray Love."

As far at The Way of Men is concerned: It's either right or it isn't. A lot of the ideas came from conversations with my straight friends about their frustrations with their lives. It's not about me "converting" people. Let's be real. I'm a jacked tattooed guy who is more or less a skinhead. Do you for a moment think I can't get laid? The reality is I can post a pic to a hookup app and have someone blowing me inside of 3 hours. I'll be able to pull prime ass from dudes with daddy issues for the next 10 years.

I don't need to creep on straight guys to get laid, and everything I've ever written on the subject would make it unforgivable for me to do so.

[jackdonovan]

(12-15-2012 05:35 PM)EisenBarde Wrote:  

(12-15-2012 05:30 PM)jdevoy Wrote:  

In short, masculinity transcends sexual orientation and affects all men.

There's a strong argument against that, being biologically the entire point of manhood is passing on yer little swimmers.

For the record and for guys reading along now, that's a confusion of what evolutionary psychologists would call proximate and ultimate causes. Yes, ultimately, reproduction drives evolution and is responsible in some way for creating the clusters of traits associated with manliness. Evolutionary theory is relatively new, and people don't do what they do to become "reproductively successful." That would be ridiculous.

Think of it this way:

If being reproductively successful and being manly are the same thing, every Mormon with 8 kids is manlier than you are. If you don't believe that, then we agree that manliness is about something aside from passing on your genes.

Also, from a reproductive standpoint, you might as well be humping a dude if you are wearing a condom or having sex with a girl on birth control. The math of you passing on genes works out exactly the same.

[pitt]

(12-15-2012 05:18 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I just returned the book for a refund. I feel conned in a sense. How can a gay man be an authority on masculinity? Can that argument be raised sans ad hominem?

I am currently reading the Way of the superior men, it's not the same book as the one we are talking about on this thread but it's a similar subject.

I have read 30% of the book so far and I thought to myself that some of the language on that book is just straight gay. I thought fuck it, let me google this guy David Deida and see who he is. Dude seems 100% gay to me.

Now, I don't really care if the guy is gay but if you are writing a book about masculinity then write a book about masculinity and in this case, I don't think he is done a great job in writing about masculinity. If you look at his videos on youtube, you will see that he doesn't have a strong masculine presence.

I think this book was a bit over-rated. I am surprised nobody called out all that lame stuff on the book (well actually roosh warned us on his review that this book had lots lame stuff).

[HonantheBarbarian]

(06-08-2013 12:48 AM)jackdonovan Wrote:  

Yeah, I've been a top for years. I basically fuck men like they are women -- but I'm glad that they're not. I'm banging this jacked rich liberal right now. Probably the best piece of ass I've ever had. I've had sex with women, but I've been with one guy for 14 years, so there is no question of...switching teams...in any meaningful way. He's a good guy who supports me and my work and always has. I have a dude on the side, but it's all on the level, and betraying Lucio -- who became blood-brothers with me for my second book, and has my initials tattooed (by me) on his arm -- because I decided to "explore other ideas for philosophical reasons" would be the homo version of "Eat, Pray Love."

As far at The Way of Men is concerned: It's either right or it isn't. A lot of the ideas came from conversations with my straight friends about their frustrations with their lives. It's not about me "converting" people. Let's be real. I'm a jacked tattooed guy who is more or less a skinhead. Do you for a moment think I can't get laid? The reality is I can post a pic to a hookup app and have someone blowing me inside of 3 hours. I'll be able to pull prime ass from dudes with daddy issues for the next 10 years.

I don't need to creep on straight guys to get laid, and everything I've ever written on the subject would make it unforgivable for me to do so.

Dude! Absolutely loved the book and recommended it to a few of my friends and relatives. I even got my design teacher interested in it. I read it at a time in my life where I was becoming brash and unapologetic about my ways and behavior as a man, and this book was the battle cry that confirmed it all. I am surprised, but not taken back by the fact that you're gay.

Did you really design the cover art for "The Way of Men" yourself? As an artist I thought it was an awesome illustration, it would make a badass shirt.

Cool to hear from you on our very own humble RVF.

[Aziz Nuts]

(12-19-2013 12:05 AM)AfgScarface Wrote:  

Did you really design the cover art for "The Way of Men" yourself? As an artist I thought it was an awesome illustration, it would make a badass shirt.

Yep, Jack did the design for the cover and he has a link to Way of Men shirts on his site. I have one and it's a great design on a high-quality shirt. Recommended.

http://www.dangerprints.com/product/the-...men-shirt/

[HonantheBarbarian]

(12-19-2013 12:28 AM)Aziz Nuts Wrote:  

(12-19-2013 12:05 AM)AfgScarface Wrote:  

Did you really design the cover art for "The Way of Men" yourself? As an artist I thought it was an awesome illustration, it would make a badass shirt.

Yep, Jack did the design for the cover and he has a link to Way of Men shirts on his site. I have one and it's a great design on a high-quality shirt. Recommended.

http://www.dangerprints.com/product/the-...men-shirt/

Yessssss

[Fitzgerald]

So what if Jack's homosexual? I read this book about a year ago (knowing in advance he's gay), and it's excellent. In short, real men band together to kick ass and conquer the world (women are lobsters in a bucket). I used to do a lot of theatre, so pretty much every gay guy I know hits at least a 5 on the queeny scale (although I have nothing against them). I did have a tiny bit of trouble overcoming that when it came to reading a book about what manliness is as written by a homosexual man, but Jack really hit the nail on the head. Give it a chance, it's a must read.

[Jackreacher]

It's weird now that I think about it but I know a lot of guys who are more manly than a lot of straight men so I guess it doesn't matter much to me. Jack is gay but his book is a solid piece of work describing the social aspects of masculinity.

[reaper23]

its interesting to see different sects of the rvf forum come out (ha) on these gay perspectives. in another thread it seemed like the entire forum was against homosexual acceptance by society at large. that thread's failure to understand that homosexuals are more than just the queeny community that often gets publicized was disappointing.

without trying to be condescending, i applaud your efforts, jack, to engage with a community that is practically hyper hetero.

i read the book as well. i think i got lost in the us vs them slant but overall i enjoyed it

[Aliblahba]

Taking masculinity advice from gay men is the same or worse than getting said advice from feminist. Be careful on those sources, or be in danger of swallowing the pink pill.

[Checkmat]

(12-19-2013 01:36 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

Taking masculinity advice from gay men is the same or worse than getting said advice from feminist.

Because...Why?
You'd rather take masculinity advice from this (presumably) straight guy:



Instead of this gay guy?

[Aliblahba]

Gay men have the same psuedo masculinity as butch lesbians. Neither will ever be able to understand the true meaning of being a man, and will try to bend that definition, just as they do their gender roles.

[HonantheBarbarian]

There have been gays in special forces

What about them? They kill and hunt people for a living, but alas they can't know anything about masculinity?

[Aliblahba]

^^^ I don't track the movements of homosexual men in normal society. If you want to take advice from them, go ahead. I hear they are fashion experts too.

[HonantheBarbarian]

I think you're grasping for straws here, but i'll leave it alone.

[AnonymousBosch]

(12-19-2013 02:23 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

Gay men have the same psuedo masculinity as butch lesbians. Neither will ever be able to understand the true meaning of being a man, and will try to bend that definition, just as they do their gender roles.

Read the book. There's no sneaky redefinition of what men and women should be. He recognises women are necessary for a male society to endure. He points out exactly why homosexuality and weakness is a detriment to the security of a male group. If he's secretly-cheerleading for homosexuality, he's doing a terrible job at it.

Based upon what he says in that book, I guarantee you the PC left would despise and villify him, which should clue you in that he's on the mark.

[Aliblahba]

At best gay men can only mimic the behavior of straight men. At the end of the day, real men go home and bang out some some pussy. Gay men bend over and get injected with the semen of another man, thus copying the behavior of females.

When a gay man writes a book about masculinity, its essentially second hand knowledge. Why pay for that and potentially have errors or underlying messages?

No offense to Jack, but I skimmed the book and it sounded like 50 Shades of Grey for gay men. Good title for a book in thst genre though, "Fifty Shades of Gay". Catchy, huh?

[AnonymousBosch]

(12-19-2013 03:41 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

When a gay man writes a book about masculinity, its essentially second hand knowledge. Why pay for that and potentially have errors or underlying messages?

1. Seemingly every other book on masculinity is filtered through what women want from a man, and a notion of morality that is simply a tool to control men, and is outdated if women are no longer acting abiding by the same morality.

2. The guys here and in the manosphere have huge bullshit detectors. Doesn't the fact the book hasn't been completely ridiculed and torn apart by us for being riddled with errors or coded gay messages suggest its offers something of worth?

[OGNorCal707]

Just bought this book on Roosh's recommendation and that of the forum, think it is kind of odd that the author is gay, but if I can get value out of it, I'll read it all the same. I do think it's interesting that Roosh seems to be increasingly anti-homosexual (not that I care either way), yet he is a huge proponent of this Jack Donovan guy and his book. What does that mean, it's okay to be gay if you're a tatted up macho dude with a shaved head that fucks guys in the ass?

[Aliblahba]

(12-19-2013 04:00 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

1. Seemingly every other book on masculinity is filtered through what women want from a man, and a notion of morality that is simply a tool to control men, and is outdated if women are no longer acting abiding by the same morality.

You can't learn masculinity from a book, just that it exists. In this day and age that is an accomplishment. Stop reading about it go do it.

(12-19-2013 04:00 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

2. The guys here and in the manosphere have huge bullshit detectors. Doesn't the fact the book hasn't been completely ridiculed and torn apart by us for being riddled with errors or coded gay messages suggest its offers something of worth?

Disagree.


http://www.returnofkings.com/14846/mark-...is-a-phony

[AntiTrace]

(12-19-2013 04:10 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

What does that mean, it's okay to be gay if you're a tatted up macho dude with a shaved head that fucks guys in the ass?

Its okay to be gay anyways. Who gives a fuck if another man wants to fuck another man in the ass? As long as hes not trying to fuck me in the ass, were cool.

It only becomes a problem when they want to celebrate their sexuality (like a fucking gay pride parade) or continuously hit on you and make unwelcome sexual remarks. Or when they get on the soapbox and starting preaching about equality out of the blue.

Donovan doesn't mention homosexuality anywhere in the book from what I can remember, so I would say he doesn't broadcast or try to "celebrate" it. He then drops some serious wisdom in the book.

I find it laughable that people would change their minds on the text based upon the authors sexuality. The words in the book dont fucking change, so what does it matter if the dude is gay or not. Its like a little kid eating fish for the first time, under the impression its chicken. They like it until they find it is fish, and then they spit it out. Its childish.

Also, one could argue the ultimate form of domination over other men (being an alpha?) is by fucking them the way you dominate a woman by fucking her.

Anyways, this is quickly getting into a gay/anti-gay debate instead of about the book. Fuck who you want and don't worry about whos fucking anyone else. And read the book if you haven't. Its a damn good book and well worth the price.

[gfly]

another good book on the subject is Harvey Mansfield's Manliness. Author is a Harvard professor so we can hate him for that.

[Aliblahba]

Relevent:

(12-16-2013 07:20 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

This is an attempt to normalize gay behavior. Scorpion had a good analysis on this:

Quote:

Normal people (heterosexuals) have no moral obligation to support the homosexual agenda. Homosexuals do not have the "right" to inflict their deviant sexual fetishes on the rest of society. The issue is not what people do in their bedrooms, but rather what they want to normalize in society. This is the reason homosexuals insist on promoting gay marriage, allow homosexuals to serve openly in the military, flood the media with sympathetic portrayals of homosexual characters and engage in debaucherous displays of public homosexuality with their parades. They don't simply want the right to engage in homosexual behavior (which they already have, and have had for centuries - homosexuality has always existed as a minority sexual perversion behind closed doors), rather they want homosexuality to be considered just as acceptable as heterosexuality.