[Saladin]

(07-12-2012 05:20 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Guys, here's a different perspective:

Could we be alpha (or appear to be) if there weren't so many betas?

What if you were a guy on campus with a 30/70 M-F ratio?

Honestly, if I was granted any power on earth, it would be to be 19 again, going off to college with a ratio like that, knowing what I know now.

I'm going to a college with a 40/60 M/F ratio.

[Blackhawk]

(07-12-2012 05:20 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Honestly, if I was granted any power on earth, it would be to be 19 again, going off to college with a ratio like that, knowing what I know now.

But why go in debt to the tune of $80,000-$140,000 just to get laid?

There's plenty of ways to connect with and bang college girls without going to college and getting tremendously in debt for a degree of questionable value yourself.

[kosko]

^ Exactly. If this was 1990 with the same ratios you would be in heaven. School cost like 10K total then. Nowadays an apartment in the hype area of town where all those college skanks party is cheaper.... hell buying sluts to bang would be cheaper also.

[Vicious]

For US College/unique students it's probably cheaper enrolling in an Asian or European Union than at home and you get to travel at the same time.

[Architekt]

It's odd, it almost seems like the human world is trying to move backwards in its evolution. Or just trying to end the existence of the human race altogether.


Relevant.

[Jevioso]

A nation determined to destroy itself will constantly come up with dumb ideas to speed up its demise.

[Andy_B]

This can't be real...

[Kitsune]

This sure is going to make all the top scientists and engineers women. It surely can't fail, this is what the world has been waiting for.

[Excelsior]

(07-12-2012 04:39 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 04:25 PM)j r Wrote:  

Open a history book, dude. This country was founded on giving special rights for white people and legislation favoring men. And that's not political correctness; that's just plain historical fact.

So what are you saying? Instead of everyone being equal now we should do the opposite and give special rights to minorities and create legislation favoring women? That seems to be what you are defending.

False dichotomy.

We've never been equal, and we are not now. That is not an option given current realities in this society. The choice you're presenting doesn't exist.

Your argument assumes that, were all such legislation (anti-discrimination, quotas, AA of all kinds, etc) eliminated, we would all truly be equal. That isn't the case, and it is a conclusion that only someone fortunate enough not to deal with some of the realities these laws are meant to combat could say.

[durangotang]

(07-13-2012 10:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 04:39 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 04:25 PM)j r Wrote:  

Open a history book, dude. This country was founded on giving special rights for white people and legislation favoring men. And that's not political correctness; that's just plain historical fact.

So what are you saying? Instead of everyone being equal now we should do the opposite and give special rights to minorities and create legislation favoring women? That seems to be what you are defending.

False dichotomy.

We've never been equal, and we are not now. That is not an option given current realities in this society. The choice you're presenting doesn't exist.

Your argument assumes that, were all such legislation (anti-discrimination, quotas, AA of all kinds, etc) eliminated, we would all truly be equal. That isn't the case, and it is a conclusion that only someone fortunate enough not to deal with some of the realities these laws are meant to combat could say.

It is not a false dichotomy. Either you have equality under the law, or you do not. You are falsely equating legal equality with outcome equality. You cannot guarantee outcome equality in a merit based system, nor should you.

Do you think that a white child who has studied hard and has better grades should be denied admittance into a school, for a lower qualified black child with lower grades? Do you think a harder working and more competent man should be passed up for promotion, just so a woman can be seen in management? Or because the company is afraid of a lawsuit?

If so, you are the racist and it disgusts me. You are not in favor of judging others by their merit or the quality of their character, but by their skin color. But hey, you probably vote to support this shit because you have dark skin, after all a racist is out there somewhere. Look in the mirror.

Hypocrite.

[j r]

(07-13-2012 12:20 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(07-13-2012 10:10 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 04:39 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 04:25 PM)j r Wrote:  

Open a history book, dude. This country was founded on giving special rights for white people and legislation favoring men. And that's not political correctness; that's just plain historical fact.

So what are you saying? Instead of everyone being equal now we should do the opposite and give special rights to minorities and create legislation favoring women? That seems to be what you are defending.

False dichotomy.

We've never been equal, and we are not now. That is not an option given current realities in this society. The choice you're presenting doesn't exist.

Your argument assumes that, were all such legislation (anti-discrimination, quotas, AA of all kinds, etc) eliminated, we would all truly be equal. That isn't the case, and it is a conclusion that only someone fortunate enough not to deal with some of the realities these laws are meant to combat could say.

It is not a false dichotomy. Either you have equality under the law, or you do not. You are falsely equating legal equality with outcome equality. You cannot guarantee outcome equality in a merit based system, nor should you.

Do you think that a white child who has studied hard and has better grades should be denied admittance into a school, for a lower qualified black child with lower grades? Do you think a harder working and more competent man should be passed up for promotion, just so a woman can be seen in management? Or because the company is afraid of a lawsuit?

If so, you are the racist and it disgusts me. You are not in favor of judging others by their merit or the quality of their character, but by their skin color. But hey, you probably vote to support this shit because you have dark skin, after all a racist is out there somewhere. Look in the mirror.

Hypocrite.

Lighten up, Francis.

[Excelsior]

(07-13-2012 12:20 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

It is not a false dichotomy. Either you have equality under the law, or you do not. You are falsely equating legal equality with outcome equality. You cannot guarantee outcome equality in a merit based system, nor should you.

We do not have a merit based system. We never did.

What we have a system that has, historically, be designed to foster inequality, regardless of the letter of the law (which often was of a similar bent anyway) to favor some groups over others, with skin color serving as the main criteria for personal judgement. It isn't about who you are-it is about your race. That is the society we live in.

A scenario in which there is rampant inequality on the ground but "equality" under the law and thus no legal motive to address the aforementioned inequality might be ok with you, which is understandable (said inequality wouldn't hurt you).

Don't expect everyone else to sit around and just "deal with it".

Quote:

Do you think that a white child who has studied hard and has better grades should be denied admittance into a school, for a lower qualified black child with lower grades?

Assuming that this is a common occurrence.

The least qualified admits at my own school (one whose admissions office most certainly takes things like race, income, and other factors into account) are not blacks, hispanics, or native Americans.

They are affluent whites and/or legacies.

Your "hard working" middle class white applicant is more likely to get his lunch stolen by an affluent, well pedigreed, white lacrosse player from New England than he is by a minority. For all the bitching you go on about AA, there really aren't that many of us here.

Of course, your "hard working" young white kid is probably going to blame the black kid first since we're ALWAYS the least qualified...right? Right?

Sure.

Quote:

Do you think a harder working and more competent man should be passed up for promotion, just so a woman can be seen in management? Or because the company is afraid of a lawsuit?

White American women (read: the largest beneficiaries of AA in this country) can be as discriminatory as anyone else, and have benefited as much as anyone else from historical discrimination.
They're already privileged, and largely always have been. So, to answer your question:

Quote:

If so, you are the racist and it disgusts me.

Sorry I hurt your feelings.

Quote:

You are not in favor of judging others by their merit or the quality of their character,

...assuming that we live in a society where such noble practices are commonplace.

Quote:

But hey, you probably vote to support this shit because you have dark skin, after all a racist is out there somewhere. Look in the mirror.

Hypocrite.

Not a democrat, btw.

[durangotang]

Athlone, you have just admitted that you are racist and that you are fine with racial inequality under the law, so long as it benefits you. Forget noble intentions, don't try to establish legal equality and a system of merit, because in the past there were inequalities. How does this make you any different than racists who sought to keep their legal advantages who came before you? Fundamentally, it doesn't.

If you really believe that "it isn't about who you are-it is about your race" as you previously stated, then you are perpetuating a dangerous ideology. What year were you born, 1990? Tough times for minorities in 1990. I am sure you suffer daily on your ivy league campus, thank goodness for your special legal privileges.

I don't care if you are democrat or republican, you are a cultural marxist.

[WestCoast]

This is a sad sad sad thread for a forum of "alpha males".

The amount of bullshit here is amazing.

Nothing in life is equal nor will it ever be equal. Sorry. No.

The trick is to not let people get you down.

All this crap about white guy black guy Asian guy Indian guy orange guy green guy working "hard" to get in somewhere is stupid.

A guy who lived under a bridge and got a 2,400 sat score is much more impressive than the 2,400 from upper class male/female with hand holding for his entire life. Fact. Problem? What If I compare 2,200 and 2,400 now is it equal or is it 2,200 or 2,400. No one on this board will create this human equation, grow up.

How you possibly value the differential perfectly it is impossible.

Let's step away from these stupid arguments, let's step away from COMPARISONS, step away from COMPLAINING, step aside.

We can bitch all day about what we were born with or what we could have done given xyz. This goes no where

Control why you can control. I cannot control completely what I look like, speak like, walk like, smell like, hair color, blah blah blah. It's a waste of my time and yours.

To believe you know what EXACTLY what it is like to walk in another man's shoes is complete arrogance. If you are a billionaire or a millionaire or barely getting by, my only goal is I hope you are happy with your life!

Failure is the level of happiness you could have had versus the level of happiness you are at today. Stop thinking, start doing and shut the fuck up!

We can't all be Michael Jordan but we can all be the best Tom, Mike and Kevin. Stop hating and start helping.

[YoungGunner]

[durangotang]

WestCoast, this is not a sad thread. This is a forum that discusses the root of problems. I am arguing logically to expose the false ideology that also encompasses feminism. It is the idea that somewhere in the past a group was oppressed, so they need superior legal rights and privileges, which is not a system of equality or merit.

This thread started with quotas on men in STEM majors, so unqualified women can compete. Feminism is merely one branch of political correctness, or cultural marxism, along with special minority rights and privileges. I am logically demonstrating that neither is fair or desirable. There should be equal rights guaranteed by law, not equal outcomes.

Athlone disagrees, but to think this racial ideology fundamentally isn't related to feminism simply isn't true. It is the same world view - "my group was oppressed in the past so we need extra rights and privileges to give us advantage." It does not seek legal equality, but the opposite.

[WestCoast]

This will be my last post on "race, class, feminism" whatever.

If you are born black, white, Asian, green, blue, ugly, cute, handsome, athletic etc...

At birth you are already going to be treated differently no matter what. Fact.

When people lose or gain weight and become more attractive sometimes you see some bullshit about "wow now I see how shallow people really are". NO.

What you are seeing is you believe you can act indifferently in all cases, you cannot. I cannot. We are all animals at some level and you cannot change that no matter what crap trap policy you put in.

So what's the solution? Focus on making yourself better and being nice to everyone regardless of differences.

If I see you and Athlone give each other rep points and hanging out some day you get it. If you don't you're getting pissed at a computer screen believing you are smarter than everyone else by always being able to step to the side. No one is. Myself included.

With that said, I hope you all realize you are HUMANS not ROBOTS who have NO emotions or instincts.

With that I am out. I hope this thread dies now.

WC

[All or Nothing]

(07-12-2012 05:20 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

Guys, here's a different perspective:

Could we be alpha (or appear to be) if there weren't so many betas?

What if you were a guy on campus with a 30/70 M-F ratio?

Honestly, if I was granted any power on earth, it would be to be 19 again, going off to college with a ratio like that, knowing what I know now.

Yeah, well, it's only good if you fall into a group that benefits from that ratio. I'm a mechanical engineering major, and it's finally reached the point where it is about a 20:1 to 30:1 ratio of males to females. It started out at a solid 4:1 ratio, but has gotten significantly worse over time. Worse is, the remaining girls all look sort of like awkward dudes.

Also, the Title IX thing will fail. About 80-90% of the people who go into EEE, ME, BME majors drop out by the time it's time to graduate already. If Title IX gets implemented, no one would even reach senior year.

[Excelsior]

(07-13-2012 01:26 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

Athlone, you have just admitted that you are racist and that you are fine with racial inequality under the law, so long as it benefits you.

And you're fine with outcome inequality (even if it goes against the law), so long as it benefits you.
As for others and the inequalities they face, well...fuck them! No need to do anything about that, they'll "pull themselves up by their bootstraps"!

Cool story, bro-tell it again!

Quote:

Forget noble intentions, don't try to establish legal equality and a system of merit, because in the past there were inequalities.

Sorry, I made a mistake here. Apparently, racism and its side effects were only an issue in the past. Inequalities only existed then. They're all totally gone now, along with the cultural mindsets and biases that went with them.

We don't need all of these anti-discrimination policies because there is no discrimination against minorities. Silly me!

Quote:

How does this make you any different than racists who sought to keep their legal advantages who came before you?

You mean the ones you now seek to advantage once again?

I dunno, you tell me. You're a whole lot closer to them than I am.

Quote:

If you really believe that "it isn't about who you are-it is about your race" as you previously stated, then you are perpetuating a dangerous ideology.

You mean realism? Since when was reality a dangerous thing to promote?

Quote:

What year were you born, 1990? Tough times for minorities in 1990. I am sure you suffer daily on your ivy league campus, thank goodness for your special legal privileges.

Ah, here we have an insightful one!

Please, go on! Tell me more about my life and exactly how it is, internet-white-conservative-I've-never-met-in-my-life. I'm sure you know all about it!

Foh I iz jus' a po yung negrow, sir-I dunno nuthin bout meself!

Quote:

I don't care if you are democrat or republican, you are a cultural marxist.

[durangotang]

Athlone, you disgrace yourself. You share the same feminist worldview, only for you it is about race. And this worldview only serves to perpetuate racism where none exists.

[Excelsior]

(07-13-2012 02:57 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

Athlone, you disgrace yourself. You share the same feminist worldview, only for you it is about race.

Once again, cool story, bro.

Quote:

And this worldview only serves to perpetuate racism where none exists.

Did you ever wonder why minorities have historically been so damn hostile to you and your viewpoints, and seem likely to remain so for the foreseeable future?

This is it, right here. In this one statement, you have managed to capture all the naivete, the subtle shaming (and you call me a feminist?) and the utter, raw ignorance associated with yourself and all who make your argument. The minorities you insult actually live these realities-you merely pontificate about them on the internet, and yet insist that you occupy some sort of moral high ground as if you actually know what you're talking about, and all those who actually live with these realities are just entitled, hypocritical dumbfucks. Really, who the fuck do you think you are?

"There's no discrimination", he says. "Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps", he says. In your perfect little world, we'd go ahead and get rid of all efforts designed to curb discrimination and provide minorities a little protection here and there from the unique challenges they've been stuck with since this nation was founded.

And when a mass of white American society, newly unburdened by any mandate to limit discrimination, starts discriminating wildly against minorities (as has been done here since...well, always?) while privileging itself with golden handshakes and other BS to the near complete exclusion of everyone else, what will you say to those affected?

"Well, too bad. We can't do anything about outcome inequality! They can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps!"

You'll raise hell when you sense "discrimination" by/for minorities, but when someone informs you of the blatantly obvious and broad opportunities for whites to engage in such action?



Nope, that side effect is a-ok with you. No problems.
And you wonder how I'm so sure of where you really stand? You could give a fuck about "equality", and you have no business shouting "hypocrite" from your glass house.

No legal help for minorities, he says, but when a mass of unions (the vast majority of which are white controlled) decide they're just going to almost completely shut minorities out of valuable career options just because they do not like them? And when enitire said minorities find themselves shut out of entire industries because HR doesn't like the sound of their names?

"Oh well. We're all about merit here-nothing we can do about these outcomes! The law says we're all equal!"

You know what I say to your logic?



You go have a nice day.

[Blunt]

Athlone when you put all those GIFs in your replies it makes it hard to read. I'm a young dude with 20/20 and it still hurts my eyes.

[durangotang]

Athlone, racism does exist. But creating a system of special legal rights and reverse racism is not the solution. As I said before, it perpetuates racism where none exists, i.e. those whom otherwise were not racist but are adversely affected, legally, by people like you who are racist and support affirmative action, etc. The only answer is equal rights under the law and a merit based system. Then yes, you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps, which is the moral and ethical thing to do, because hard work is rewarded. My great, great grandfather was a share croper, he didn't even own the land he toiled on - here in America. My family managed to pull ourselves up through hard work. Why should my family or my children be disadvantaged legally through no fault of their own due to the color of their skin? Can you answer me that? And maybe you can do it using just words this time, and not childish little gifs.

[Excelsior]

(07-13-2012 03:55 PM)Blunt Wrote:  

Athlone when you put all those GIFs in your replies it makes it hard to read. I'm a young dude with 20/20 and it still hurts my eyes.

My b.

(07-13-2012 03:55 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

And maybe you can do it using just words this time, and not childish little gifs.

Honestly, I'd normally leave them out of a serious discussion. But when I see patently absurd arguments like yours pop up I really just lose all inclination to take the whole thing seriously.

Quote:

The only answer is equal rights under the law and a merit based system. Then yes, you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps, which is the moral and ethical thing to do,

Different post, more BS.

We can just agree to disagree here, because your solution is neither realistic nor tolerable.

Quote:

My great, great grandfather was a share croper, he didn't even own the land he toiled on - here in America. My family managed to pull ourselves up through hard work. Why should my family or my children be disadvantaged legally through no fault of their own due to the color of their skin? Can you answer me that?

Sure, but first I'd like you to tell me why your children should hold an unquestioned and often unearned societal advantage over minority children and why the latter should be stripped of all means (legal or otherwise) to address said inequality.

I feel I already know the answer, but you go ahead and illustrate it just in case I have it wrong.

Quote:

because hard work is rewarded.

Irregardless of race in the USA?

I will believe that when I see it.

[kosko]

(07-13-2012 01:56 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

This will be my last post on "race, class, feminism" whatever.

If you are born black, white, Asian, green, blue, ugly, cute, handsome, athletic etc...

At birth you are already going to be treated differently no matter what. Fact.

When people lose or gain weight and become more attractive sometimes you see some bullshit about "wow now I see how shallow people really are". NO.

What you are seeing is you believe you can act indifferently in all cases, you cannot. I cannot. We are all animals at some level and you cannot change that no matter what crap trap policy you put in.

So what's the solution? Focus on making yourself better and being nice to everyone regardless of differences.

If I see you and Athlone give each other rep points and hanging out some day you get it. If you don't you're getting pissed at a computer screen believing you are smarter than everyone else by always being able to step to the side. No one is. Myself included.

With that said, I hope you all realize you are HUMANS not ROBOTS who have NO emotions or instincts.

With that I am out. I hope this thread dies now.

WC

Race is a manufactured bait trap. In the grand scheme race mean very little. Hense why people of the same color would be brutal to each other and feed each other to animals and try to wipe each other out.

Race means nothing

Culture and class do.

Any race that creates a system to artificially prop up its self is asking to get fucked over later down the road.

Humans have always been divided by class and that transcended races.

Humans are also bred to be nice and descent. Only will turn hostile and into raging killers when class and culture are fucked with.

America was created on a phony premise of one united culture but that culture was only intended for Quakers, Settlers and Scotts. Its outdated now hense why a revolution almost occurred in the 60's which would of brought about a reformed more inclusive Constitution.