[Keyser Söze]

(04-28-2012 08:04 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(04-27-2012 08:25 AM)Walnuts Wrote:  

I hold a dim view of doctors. They're supposed to be smart, but who would seriously say that becoming a doctor is a smart decision?

You have to go to college for like a hundred years, then you work shitty hours in a fucking hospital all day and night surrounded by people shitting on themselves. The pay isn't even that great when you take all that into account.

Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather not make a habit of having to tell people their grandma's not gona make it three times a week.

{Edited for grammar}

Are you talking about in the UK? Cos it's a shyt profession in the UK. However, in US, you can make coin from that. I heard that in Florida (not sure if it's still true) but you can practice plastic surgery by just having a medical degree and it doesn't matter what position in the class you graduated.

Plastic surgeons make obscene P's. At certain levels, you can delegate the grunt work to noobs and just show up for PR purposes.

That's not at all how it works in the USA. Someone who is just out of medical school would be completely unable to perform surgery.

In the US, first you need to get a 4 yr undergraduate degree, usually in a science. Then you go to a 4 yr medical school. You are now likely around 200,000 or more in debt unless you have wealthy parents, are exceptionally brilliant and got a rare merit scholarship, or went to a state school and took out no unnecessary loans.

Throughout this extremely competitive process, you are constantly tested and evaluated, and your results determine which residency placement you are able to get.

The most desirable are the ROADS specialties (Radiology, Opthamology, Anethesiology, Dermatology, and Surgical Subspecialties), as these combine the highest level of income with the most manageable hours once you are done with initial training.

Residencies typically last anywhere from 3 to 10 years AFTER medical school, and during all of this time a resident (doctor in training) works 80 hours a week or more and makes less than 50,000 a year. Surgical residencies are the longest and are famous for being grueling.

Doctors in the specialties I mentioned before typically make 300-500,000 a year or much more if they have some business sense and build a good private practice.
Even so, medicine is only worth it if you really have a hard on for science, as you will spend thousands of hours of your life studying esoteric and rather dull subjects.

[PUA_Rachacha]

Keyser,

Your assessment is pretty spot on, but I think Walnuts was likely referring something akin to plastic surgery: Botox and Juvederm injections.

One of the girl doctors I'm seeing wants to go into Family Medicine, primarily to perform IUD-placements and abortions. However, with a tiny bit of training she's also going to qualify to administer Botox and Juvederm injections. Said injections are not covered by insurance and in ever-increasing demand as the baby-boomer generation enters retirement. What she hears from the other Family-Med doctors is that you can double your income (Family Med doctors usually earn $200-300K p.a.) by administering mostly injections.

She only needs three years of residency and then she's off in the real world. So, yes Walnuts, what you probably heard was that some doctors in Florida are performing "plastic surgery" with not needing to undertake the rigorous training of a plastic surgeon. However, they're only performing small injections, not surgery, and they still needed to complete four years of undergrad, four years of med school, and three years of of residency, while constantly working/studying under very stressful conditions. They also are shouldering on average $200K of school debt.

I'm glad I never got into the medical profession.

[reaper23]

PUA_Rachacha:

show us dated pictures and your workout log for how you put 20 lbs of muscle on in one month with only 120 minutes of total gym time.

otherwise i call complete and total fucking bullshit

thats FIVE POUNDS of muscle for 30 minutes of working out!!

AMAZING!

[Hades]

(04-29-2012 09:01 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

PUA_Rachacha:

show us dated pictures and your workout log for how you put 20 lbs of muscle on in one month with only 120 minutes of total gym time.

otherwise i call complete and total fucking bullshit

thats FIVE POUNDS of muscle for 30 minutes of working out!!

AMAZING!

I am usually hesitant to call people out on their fitness bullshit, because there are so many factors.

For example, my friend was formerly jacked as balls, and inside of two months of weightlifting he regained nearly all of his muscle back (roughly thirty pounds) because he hit the weights very hard and kept going out for chinese.

It is possible that if his workouts were intense and efficient, and he was jacked once, that 20 pounds in a month on 1/2 hour a week is not unreasonable. Say two sets of heavy deadlift, maybe eight reps, two sets of squats, two sets of bench press, and maybe a set of core workouts, all done in supersets, then yeah, you can make a 1/2 hour workout that will take a week to recover from.

Still though, his post seems like bullshit. I don't think you can hit any sort of potential in the gym in under three 45 minute workouts a week. The optimization needed to build a half hour workout can takes months of lifting and thinking about lifting, or a decent coach.

[soup]

People become doctors in the US because they get old-school inspiration that being a doc is a great way to beat the system and get value/women/etc. in society. Also, science can be very addicting.

[PUA_Rachacha]

(04-29-2012 09:01 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

PUA_Rachacha:

show us dated pictures and your workout log for how you put 20 lbs of muscle on in one month with only 120 minutes of total gym time.

otherwise i call complete and total fucking bullshit

thats FIVE POUNDS of muscle for 30 minutes of working out!!

AMAZING!

Hey Reaper23,

Reading comprehension buddy: I said I put on 20lbs, MOST of which was muscle in a month. But you got me: I went from 163lbs to 181lbs, or 18lbs, in a month.

I don't have pictures but do have the workout log, I think. I'll post it momentarily.

@ Hades: I did workout pretty heavily in HS as I was the linebacker in football, so I already knew how to lift properly.

The goal of Occam's Protocol is to increase muscle mass quickly, though strength will increase and the gains will surpass most protocols. The workout is a variation of the consolidation routine used by the late Mike Mentzer, who won the heavyweight class of the Mr. Olympia competition in 1979.

The exercises are performed for one set each and no more. The objective is to fail, to reach the point where you can no longer move the weight, at seven or more repetitions at a 5/5 cadence. Here are my results:

June 21, 2011, Session A:

- Yates Row with EZ bar: 80lbs x 5 reps (my forearms were too weak for this exercise)
- Shoulder Press (SP): 30lbs x 9.4 reps

June 24, 2011, Session B:

- Incline bench: 60lbs x 7 reps
- Leg Press: 100lbs x 11 reps

June 27, 2011, Session A:

- Close-grip supinated pull-down: 80lbs x 9 reps (much better)
- Shoulder Press (SP): 40lbs x 8.5 reps

June 30, 2011, Session B:

- Incline bench: 70lbs x 9.7 reps
- Leg Press: 110lbs x 13.2 reps

July 4, 2011, Session A:

- Close-grip supinated pull-down: 90lbs x 8.9 reps
- Shoulder Press (SP): 50lbs x 7.9 reps

July 8, 2011, Session B:

- Incline bench: 80lbs x 8.1 reps
- Leg Press: 120lbs x 17 reps (next time I doubled the minimum stepup to 140lbs because it was so easy)

July 12, 2011, Session A:

- Close-grip supinated pull-down: 100lbs x 8 reps
- Shoulder Press (SP): 60lbs x 7 reps (doubled this already)

July 17, 2011, Session B:

- Incline bench: 90lbs x 9.1 reps
- Leg Press: 140lbs x 16.2 reps

July 21, 2011, Session A:

- Close-grip supinated pull-down: 110lbs x 7.1 reps
- Shoulder Press (SP): 70lbs x 6.3 reps

July 25, 2011, Session B:

- Incline bench: 100lbs x 6.9 reps
- Leg Press: 160lbs x 12.1 reps

July 29, 2011, Session A:

- Close-grip supinated pull-down: 120lbs x 4.8 reps
- Shoulder Press (SP): 70lbs x 7.1 reps

August 2, 2011, Session B:

- Incline bench: 100lbs x 7.1 reps
- Leg Press: 180lbs x 13.1 reps

I just showed my workout log for the last six weeks. Results:

1) I increased my pull-down from 80lbs to 120lbs (50% improvement). I workout at home and didn't have the proper machine for this, so I'm positive I could've reached 130lbs by six weeks, especially given trying the Yates Row the first session was a disaster.

2) Shoulder Press went from 30lbs to 70lbs (133% improvement).

3) Incline bench press went from 60lbs to 100lbs (67% improvement).

4) Leg press went from 100lbs to 180lbs (80% improvement, I definitely could've done 190lbs in the last session and still reached 10+ reps).

It's good to be skeptical, but this is what I accomplished. I fucking drank protein milk shakes with almond butter every day, went on creatine, and followed the protocol steadfastly. It felt good to actually have some muscle on me again, although I noticed that I got hot and sweaty much more easily.

[finton_the_toole]

(04-27-2012 08:11 AM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  

What is so bad about having legumes in lieu of starchy foods?

Nothing. But I dispute that the diet does what it does, for the reasons Ferriss gives.

If the diet works, it is because it is calorie restrictive. Cutting starches from your diet is one of the easiest ways to cut calories. End of story.

As for re-feeds etc. There is a lot of body building experience that says it can work, but only as part as your diet plan.

There is also evidence that protein cycling, carb cycling work. But for the vast majority of people it is pointless. If you're trying to cut from 10% body fat to 5%, you might have to try a few things, but if you're a lard-ass trying to cut from 30% fat to 15%, your best bet is calorie counting.

There are lots of ways to lose weight by restricting calories. The trick is to choose an eating regime that works for you. For the commentor who said that the diet was too strict and he had to drop it, chose the wrong diet.

[Walnuts]

The hot and sweatiness could be from humidity. Where were you?

[MikeCF]

To the guy who said he's so much more effective than Ferris: Why not start your own business rather than hating on another guy who, while not necessarily having the Rosetta stone of fitness, is nevertheless helping guys lead better lives?

[MikeCF]

MDs said for decades that steroids "didn't work." then they said steroids were dangerous. Now they are prescribing testosterone.

Before that, doctors were putting leeches on people.

Doctors have also created superbugs by overprescribing antibiotics.

As many people die in hospitals (due to preventable errors) than are saved in them.

Doctors are nothing special.

[Hades]

How do you go about recording partial reps? Do those count?

Also, a solid tip that I learned from a dude who's had many surgeries. It's never a good idea to continually progress on shoulder exercises because the rotor cuffs are so delicate. While you can press 70 pounds no problem with your shoulders, you should cycle aggressively.

Like suppose you do a shoulder workout M-W-F.
Monday would be light day, like 35 pound press.
Wednesday would be medium day, maybe 50 pounds press.
Friday would be another light day, with plenty of shoulder warmup on maybe 30 pounds and then (only then) one or two heavy sets of your max, without exceeding 5-6 reps.

Progress is slower but safer. Nearly all athletes develop shoulder pain and surgeries are expensive.

Another tip, the worst machine in all weight rooms is the leg press. It doesn't increase real strength and it causes all kinds of back pain. I have a friend who leg presses 500 pounds no problem, yet cannot deadlift more or jump higher than me.

Having muscle mass (which is from what I can tell with Occam's protocol) is a solid idea though, since you have something to work with and make strength gains very quickly.

[Keyser Söze]

(04-29-2012 02:30 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

MDs said for decades that steroids "didn't work." then they said steroids were dangerous. Now they are prescribing testosterone.

Before that, doctors were putting leeches on people.

Doctors have also created superbugs by overprescribing antibiotics.

As many people die in hospitals (due to preventable errors) than are saved in them.

Doctors are nothing special.

Fine. Obviously we have a difference of opinion.

Personally, when I was critically ill with a case of pneumonia that went septic and caused kidney failure, I was quite pleased at being cared for by a well educated doctor and satisfied with the antibiotic cocktail that saved me from death.

If I had asked a friend of a friend on the internet for his opinion on what I should do, or had I self medicated by giving myself a tree bark and fish oil enema, the results would have been different.

Also the changes in doctor's attitudes towards a lot of things, from leeches to steroids etc did not result from some brave pioneer body builders and cool dudes like Tim Ferriss jabbing their butts with needles full of steroid concoctions made in someone's basement. It came from experimentation, the application of scientific method, and the continual learning and worldwide sharing of relevant research. There is a reason that we have things like scientists and scientific journals. It helps discern what is truly effective using science instead of anecdotal evidence.

[PUA_Rachacha]

(04-29-2012 01:21 PM)Walnuts Wrote:  

The hot and sweatiness could be from humidity. Where were you?

Upstate NY. Yeah, it got hot last summer, but still, I can usually handle it better.

[PUA_Rachacha]

(04-29-2012 02:36 PM)Hades Wrote:  

How do you go about recording partial reps? Do those count?

It's not an exact science, if I pushed almost all the way up but didn't make the full rep, then I would guestimate 0.8 or 0.9.

Quote:

Also, a solid tip that I learned from a dude who's had many surgeries. It's never a good idea to continually progress on shoulder exercises because the rotor cuffs are so delicate. While you can press 70 pounds no problem with your shoulders, you should cycle aggressively.

Like suppose you do a shoulder workout M-W-F.
Monday would be light day, like 35 pound press.
Wednesday would be medium day, maybe 50 pounds press.
Friday would be another light day, with plenty of shoulder warmup on maybe 30 pounds and then (only then) one or two heavy sets of your max, without exceeding 5-6 reps.

I actually have shoulder issues, and, although I didn't fuck them up with the protocol, I nonetheless will take your advice here.

Quote:

Another tip, the worst machine in all weight rooms is the leg press. It doesn't increase real strength and it causes all kinds of back pain. I have a friend who leg presses 500 pounds no problem, yet cannot deadlift more or jump higher than me.

I actually wanted to do squats, but my fucking shoulder (again) killed me while I was doing them. I've actually kind of stopped lifting for the most part until I get this damn shoulder better, after which I'll be hitting squats. I'm actually looking forward to it.

Do you think I should add deadlifts to this routine? I've done them before and liked them, but I wanted to follow Ferriss's protocol to the T.

Quote:

Having muscle mass (which is from what I can tell with Occam's protocol) is a solid idea though, since you have something to work with and make strength gains very quickly.

Yeah, he starts with the muscle-mass gain, then there's a huge section on strength gains. I didn't try it out, because I was so satisfied with just the protocol.

[Keyser Söze]

(04-29-2012 02:24 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

To the guy who said he's so much more effective than Ferris: Why not start your own business rather than hating on another guy who, while not necessarily having the Rosetta stone of fitness, is nevertheless helping guys lead better lives?

I respect Tim Ferriss a LOT.

I should be clear though.

If I wanted some inspiration on how to make a lot of money over the internet without working much, I would absolutley look to Tim Ferriss. Making millions before 30 without family money and connections is an amazing achievement.

If I wanted some inspiration on how to improve my health and fitness, I would look to someone like Jack LaLanne. Living until 96 and being as healthy and active as he was during those later years is an amazing achievement.

[Hades]

(04-29-2012 03:01 PM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  

(04-29-2012 02:36 PM)Hades Wrote:  

How do you go about recording partial reps? Do those count?

It's not an exact science, if I pushed almost all the way up but didn't make the full rep, then I would guestimate 0.8 or 0.9.

Quote:

Also, a solid tip that I learned from a dude who's had many surgeries. It's never a good idea to continually progress on shoulder exercises because the rotor cuffs are so delicate. While you can press 70 pounds no problem with your shoulders, you should cycle aggressively.

Like suppose you do a shoulder workout M-W-F.
Monday would be light day, like 35 pound press.
Wednesday would be medium day, maybe 50 pounds press.
Friday would be another light day, with plenty of shoulder warmup on maybe 30 pounds and then (only then) one or two heavy sets of your max, without exceeding 5-6 reps.

I actually have shoulder issues, and, although I didn't fuck them up with the protocol, I nonetheless will take your advice here.

Quote:

Another tip, the worst machine in all weight rooms is the leg press. It doesn't increase real strength and it causes all kinds of back pain. I have a friend who leg presses 500 pounds no problem, yet cannot deadlift more or jump higher than me.

I actually wanted to do squats, but my fucking shoulder (again) killed me while I was doing them. I've actually kind of stopped lifting for the most part until I get this damn shoulder better, after which I'll be hitting squats. I'm actually looking forward to it.

Do you think I should add deadlifts to this routine? I've done them before and liked them, but I wanted to follow Ferriss's protocol to the T.

Quote:

Having muscle mass (which is from what I can tell with Occam's protocol) is a solid idea though, since you have something to work with and make strength gains very quickly.

Yeah, he starts with the muscle-mass gain, then there's a huge section on strength gains. I didn't try it out, because I was so satisfied with just the protocol.

Keyzer has good advice above.
That's pretty interesting on partial reps. Never heard anyone else mention them in training.

Problem with Tim Ferriss is that he's a modernist, and while I'm sure he spends a great deal of time deconstructing other people's strength methods, he trusts them too much. However I have big respect for his attitude. When I read history texts about Vikings or Spartans, I can't argue with their success. They probably did that with calisthenics.

The way to go about building the legs it is to do bodyweight squats (though they really are a full body exercise). Work up until you can do maybe fifty at a crack. Don't cheat reps, go ass to ground and back up to lockout.
Take your time building this because the ligaments of the knee take time to respond to training. Once you want to build more strength and mass in the legs, and your joints can take the strain because of squat training, you can progress to one-legged pistol squats and dead leaps.

I do kickboxing and because I'm good at bodyweight squats (I can crank out about 40 without stopping, but it requires much mental strength), I'm a regular beast at throwing punches.


Another good thing on shoulder rehab is to do slow knee pushups. Like 2 seconds down, 1 second pause, 2 seconds back up. Handstands are also good. Dumbbells and barbells can be apt to worsen injuries because it's a very full range of motion.

Probably the best online resource that I have found for fitness and conditioning is rosstraining dot com. That guy is a one-man fitness juggernaut/professional. You can email him and he'll answer in person, much like Roosh.

[MikeCF]

Doctors do an excellent job of curing certain illnesses.

But here's something to try: Go to a doctor. Tell him you want to optimize your physical and cognitive performance.

Talk to a doctor about nootropics or hgh.

See how much that doctor knows.

[reaper23]

ok so its 18 lbs of mass "most" of which was muscle?

exactly how did you calculate that?

DEXA Scan? Calipers? BodPod?

Do you realize that Creatine specifically causes intramuscular water retention?

You likely gained 8 lbs of fat, 8 lbs of water and maybe, just maybe 2 lbs of muscle.

Unless of course you stopped with the creatine and it all stayed on?

how many calories were you eating each day?

I'm only being hard on you because the claim was so insanely ridiculous and not backed up with real measurements.

You're not doing yourself any good if you're deluded into thinking you can actually gain 18 lbs of muscle mass or anything close to it in one month.