Roosh tweeted a DUI checkpoint refusal. Here are some important related lessons about not incriminating yourself.
Don't Talk To Cops
I'm taking Criminal Procedure (largely a class on the 4th Amendment), and you would not believe how often a criminal consents to a search when they have a right to refuse. It's also incredible how such a short Amendment has been (wrongly) interpreted through the years. Some key words to remember: "Am I free to go?"
Im curious, can that level of polite refusal where you say nothing besides ask a name and badge number get you in any kind of trouble?
Quote: (02-13-2012 03:34 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:
Im curious, can that level of polite refusal where you say nothing besides ask a name and badge number get you in any kind of trouble?
The thing is, this mentality is all wrong. Don't go into a police encounter thinking the cop will let you off easy if you tell him what he wants to hear. He is not there to be your friend or help you out; rather, it's the opposite and anything you say or do that can be used against you, will be. The best thing you can do for yourself is politely avoid consenting to any searches or answering any questions you're not required to answer. Yeah, maybe he can still ruin your day, but thinking that waiving your rights will make the cops help you out is a sucker's thinking.
Quote: (02-13-2012 03:41 PM)gringochileno Wrote:
Quote: (02-13-2012 03:34 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:
Im curious, can that level of polite refusal where you say nothing besides ask a name and badge number get you in any kind of trouble?
The thing is, this mentality is all wrong. Don't go into a police encounter thinking the cop will let you off easy if you tell him what he wants to hear. He is not there to be your friend or help you out; rather, it's the opposite and anything you say or do that can be used against you, will be. The best thing you can do for yourself is politely avoid consenting to any searches or answering any questions you're not required to answer. Yeah, maybe he can still ruin your day, but thinking that waiving your rights will make the cops help you out is a sucker's thinking.
Thats what Im trying to avoid. I'm just wondering if they can throw the book at you harder because of your refusal to cooperate. I noticed the guy didn't say "I'm not answering" because that would be verbal refusal, he just said nothing.
So again, my question is can being silent like that hurt you in any way.
Anything YOU say can and WILL be used against you. Be polite, but be SILENT.....
"Feminism is a trade union for ugly women"- Peregrine
Quote: (02-13-2012 05:09 PM)vinman Wrote:
Anything YOU say can and WILL be used against you. Be polite, but be SILENT.....
Better not be too silent though, as in many jurisdictions it's illegal to refuse to identify oneself to a police officer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
Quote: (02-13-2012 04:57 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:
Quote: (02-13-2012 03:41 PM)gringochileno Wrote:
Quote: (02-13-2012 03:34 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:
Im curious, can that level of polite refusal where you say nothing besides ask a name and badge number get you in any kind of trouble?
The thing is, this mentality is all wrong. Don't go into a police encounter thinking the cop will let you off easy if you tell him what he wants to hear. He is not there to be your friend or help you out; rather, it's the opposite and anything you say or do that can be used against you, will be. The best thing you can do for yourself is politely avoid consenting to any searches or answering any questions you're not required to answer. Yeah, maybe he can still ruin your day, but thinking that waiving your rights will make the cops help you out is a sucker's thinking.
Thats what Im trying to avoid. I'm just wondering if they can throw the book at you harder because of your refusal to cooperate. I noticed the guy didn't say "I'm not answering" because that would be verbal refusal, he just said nothing.
So again, my question is can being silent like that hurt you in any way.
What makes you think he won't "throw the book at you" no matter what you do? It is an absolutely moronic idea to give up your rights because you think it will make the cop "go easier" on you. People get burned that way all the time and cops are allowed (in fact, trained and encouraged) to lie to you to make you think they'll let you off the hook in exchange for "cooperating" when their intent is to do the exact opposite. A cop can be a dick and ruin your day, but he usually can't ruin your week or your month or your life unless you voluntarily give up your rights.
If the police have a reason to want to talk to you, they are not your friends. NEVER assume that they're acting in good faith.
WATCH THIS VIDEO!!!
It is an AWESOME instructional video of how to handle the police in a variety of situations.
It is an AWESOME instructional video of how to handle the police in a variety of situations.
I just need to know what I CAN do if I'm pulled over, and he asks if he can search my car. Can't they just bring the dogs to sniff it out if I say no?
I didn't watch the videos but what is the best way to deny a search of your vehicle without causing suspicion that would make the officer call the k-9 unit?
Quote: (02-13-2012 06:09 PM)hoops330 Wrote:
I didn't watch the videos but what is the best way to deny a search of your vehicle without causing suspicion that would make the officer call the k-9 unit?
They cover the exact scenario you are talking about in the very beginning of the video I posted just above you.
Just refuse to consent. If they are going to call K-9, they will call K-9. Remember, departments don't have 1,000 K-9 units ready to do a walk around (the K-9 can't search INSIDE your car anyway without probable cause, UNLESS you consent). The shear number of stops a cop makes means that he CAN'T call K-9 on EVERY stop where a guy refuses to consent to a search, ESPECIALLY since K-9 will only be able to do a walk around on the car anyway.
It is almost always MUCH BETTER to politely assert your rights than to waive your rights in an attempt to avoid looking suspicious. I don't give a damn what a cop suspects. I only care about what he can PROVE in a court of law.
Also, asserting your rights puts cops on the defensive. Even experienced criminals don't assert their rights. Many times they will think that you have friends or family that are either law enforcement or attorneys. The fact that you know your rights means that they cannot trick you into waiving them. This takes away about 70% of a cops power over you in a stop.
Quote: (02-13-2012 05:18 PM)gringochileno Wrote:
What makes you think he won't "throw the book at you" no matter what you do? It is an absolutely moronic idea to give up your rights because you think it will make the cop "go easier" on you. People get burned that way all the time and cops are allowed (in fact, trained and encouraged) to lie to you to make you think they'll let you off the hook in exchange for "cooperating" when their intent is to do the exact opposite. A cop can be a dick and ruin your day, but he usually can't ruin your week or your month or your life unless you voluntarily give up your rights.
If the police have a reason to want to talk to you, they are not your friends. NEVER assume that they're acting in good faith.
You're overlooking my question. Again, I want to know can your silence be used against you. Can you incur additional charges by refusing to answer their questions.
Trust me, I dont think cops are my friends, I never have and never will, I've known officers personally and I know how the game works.
Quote: (02-13-2012 07:52 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:
Quote: (02-13-2012 05:18 PM)gringochileno Wrote:
What makes you think he won't "throw the book at you" no matter what you do? It is an absolutely moronic idea to give up your rights because you think it will make the cop "go easier" on you. People get burned that way all the time and cops are allowed (in fact, trained and encouraged) to lie to you to make you think they'll let you off the hook in exchange for "cooperating" when their intent is to do the exact opposite. A cop can be a dick and ruin your day, but he usually can't ruin your week or your month or your life unless you voluntarily give up your rights.
If the police have a reason to want to talk to you, they are not your friends. NEVER assume that they're acting in good faith.
You're overlooking my question. Again, I want to know can your silence be used against you. Can you incur additional charges by refusing to answer their questions.
Trust me, I dont think cops are my friends, I never have and never will, I've known officers personally and I know how the game works.
I'm not a lawyer or an expert but I can't think of any specific situations where an officer can compel you to speak. If you get pulled over you have to present your license and registration but I guess you could do that without saying anything. You might have to identify yourself if asked too. If you're not sure whether you have to answer a question, I think you can ask "do I have to answer?" and the cop will have to tell you the truth. I'm not sure if that's correct though, maybe there's somebody here with more legal knowledge who can give you a better answer.
To the best of my knowledge you can't really go wrong by following the rule "when in doubt, shut the fuck up."
I'm taking Criminal Procedure too. I'll try and answer your question.
If you are operating a motor vehicle, you likely have to identify yourself because the police have a right to confirm you are LEGALLY operating a motor vehicle. If you are a passenger in the car or walking down the street, and there is no probable cause to search you, you can politely refuse to produce identification because that constitutes a "search" and is a violation of the 4th amendment, if it is without consent or probable cause.
Should this illegal search produce something incriminating, that evidence will likely be suppressed.
if you are just standing up for your rights and not hiding anything, thats great, but there really arent consequences to the police should they violate your rights because there is no evidence to suppress etc... You could probably engage in some sort of civil action against the police but most likely this will not be an economic endeavor.
The bottom line: Do not give consent for anything, as there is likely no benefit to do so. If the police have probable cause to search your person or your car, they are going to do it with or without your permission. If they have to ask if they can do something, implicitly it is illegal for them to do so without your consent, that's why they're asking.
Caveat:
police have a back door way to search your car. If you are stopped and arrested so that the vehicle will be abandoned, and the vehicle is on a public road etc... the police can do an inventory search of the car to "ensure nothing goes missing while the car is in police custody."
So, for example, you could be pulled over for a DUI. The police have no probable cause to search the car for drugs, or weapons or anything else. They ask your consent to search the car and you refuse. They can then go through the car and inventory items so they dont get stolen, and come upon some contraband prior to it be towed into their custody, and it can be used as evidence federally. In some states the police have less power but i dont know the details. However, they cannot open sealed containers, so if you had a kilo of contraband in a sealed container, it would be inventoried as "1 Sealed container...green...aprox 6x10x18." etc....
If you are operating a motor vehicle, you likely have to identify yourself because the police have a right to confirm you are LEGALLY operating a motor vehicle. If you are a passenger in the car or walking down the street, and there is no probable cause to search you, you can politely refuse to produce identification because that constitutes a "search" and is a violation of the 4th amendment, if it is without consent or probable cause.
Should this illegal search produce something incriminating, that evidence will likely be suppressed.
if you are just standing up for your rights and not hiding anything, thats great, but there really arent consequences to the police should they violate your rights because there is no evidence to suppress etc... You could probably engage in some sort of civil action against the police but most likely this will not be an economic endeavor.
The bottom line: Do not give consent for anything, as there is likely no benefit to do so. If the police have probable cause to search your person or your car, they are going to do it with or without your permission. If they have to ask if they can do something, implicitly it is illegal for them to do so without your consent, that's why they're asking.
Caveat:
police have a back door way to search your car. If you are stopped and arrested so that the vehicle will be abandoned, and the vehicle is on a public road etc... the police can do an inventory search of the car to "ensure nothing goes missing while the car is in police custody."
So, for example, you could be pulled over for a DUI. The police have no probable cause to search the car for drugs, or weapons or anything else. They ask your consent to search the car and you refuse. They can then go through the car and inventory items so they dont get stolen, and come upon some contraband prior to it be towed into their custody, and it can be used as evidence federally. In some states the police have less power but i dont know the details. However, they cannot open sealed containers, so if you had a kilo of contraband in a sealed container, it would be inventoried as "1 Sealed container...green...aprox 6x10x18." etc....
Quote: (02-13-2012 04:57 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:
I'm just wondering if they can throw the book at you harder because of your refusal to cooperate. I noticed the guy didn't say "I'm not answering" because that would be verbal refusal, he just said nothing.
So again, my question is can being silent like that hurt you in any way.
You don't need to be an obnoxious smart-ass. I don't call them "sir", but I do call them "officer". These are not rent-a-cops, these are trained officers who sacrifice a lot to do their duty. They deserve some respect. So be polite and don't antagonize them. Then they might let you go. You are legally required to tell them your name on request. I would also answer simple questions like "Is this your car?", or even "Where are you from?". But you can just say "I would rather not answer questions" if they start asking leading questions like "Are you hiding anything?" or "Why are you nervous?".
In any case, don't admit anything or give them the right to search. Cops will go on fishing expeditions and try to get you to incriminate yourself. Cops know that many cases are thrown out of court for insufficient evidence. Yes, they could inconvenience you with an arrest for being uncooperative. But they don't want to waste their own time with minimal evidence on a minor charge. So if you politely "stonewall" them, they will get a little annoyed, but will probably let you go.
I've been pulled over drunk as hell but got away after showing my license and insurance. I've had times where I was completely sober, but they took me out and questioned me for 20 minutes about retarded things.
There is some serious ignorance here.
It depends on the cop and the kind of situation.
First things first, you should always have a sticker on your car supporting your local state troopers and/or police union.
You should also contribute towards or volunteer on the local police commission.
I have never gotten a traffic ticket in Connecticut, and in a variety of situations, it can be incredibly helpful when you say to a cop, oh so do you you know Officer ------?
In general with Police Officers, you just have to imagine yourself as a lone gorilla approaching a troop of gorillas. As long as you don't challenge the alpha status of the leading male/s, you will not have problems. Let the cop know by your tone of voice and body language, that you defer to his authority. This is especially important when crossing borders in Latin America.
In no way does this reflect my personal feeling towards an officer, it is merely the most practical and efficient way for me to get through a particular situation and on to whatever I actually wanted to do that day.
It depends on the cop and the kind of situation.
First things first, you should always have a sticker on your car supporting your local state troopers and/or police union.
You should also contribute towards or volunteer on the local police commission.
I have never gotten a traffic ticket in Connecticut, and in a variety of situations, it can be incredibly helpful when you say to a cop, oh so do you you know Officer ------?
In general with Police Officers, you just have to imagine yourself as a lone gorilla approaching a troop of gorillas. As long as you don't challenge the alpha status of the leading male/s, you will not have problems. Let the cop know by your tone of voice and body language, that you defer to his authority. This is especially important when crossing borders in Latin America.
In no way does this reflect my personal feeling towards an officer, it is merely the most practical and efficient way for me to get through a particular situation and on to whatever I actually wanted to do that day.
Quote: (02-17-2012 11:37 AM)TudoBem Wrote:
First things first, you should always have a sticker on your car supporting your local state troopers and/or police union.
You should also contribute towards or volunteer on the local police commission.
I know you mean well, but FUCK THAT. I'm not spending my money to pay off some police organization so that they will be nice to me. This isn't Guatemala. We have rights. More importantly, if we have KNOWLEDGE of our rights and exercise them appropriately this country is actually pretty good at providing legal recourse when those rights are violated.
I've NEVER consented to a search, EVER. I learned that from my attorney and law enforcement relatives. Have I gotten the occasional ticket? Yeah, but in those cases I WAS ACTUALLY GUILTY OF WHAT I WAS TICKETED FOR.
I have no problem paying a ticket when I actually did something wrong, but I am not going to be some cop's bitch by:
a) waiving my rights through answering questions or consenting to searches
b) paying of some police organization
Quote: (02-17-2012 11:37 AM)TudoBem Wrote:
This is especially important when crossing borders in Latin America.
Having been in several Latin American countries (and paid off a few cops), this is true. BUT this is not Latin America. FURTHERMORE, I only pay off cops in Latin America when:
a) I want them to do something beyond their duties (e.g. throw some girl out of my apartment, watch my back at the ATM),
b) I actually did something wrong and would rather pay this guy off than deal with the legal system.
HOWEVER, I have been in situations where Latin American cops have tried to intimidate me into giving them a bribe when I have done nothing wrong. In those cases I will usually just stand my ground (especially if I know the country).
For example, it is reasonably common expat knowledge that cops in Costa Rica go out on Sundays to troll for tourist who either do not have a copy of their passport with them or have expired visas. If you get caught, expect to pay anywhere from $40 to whatever they can get out of you.
I've been stopped by cops doing a passport shakedown on more than one occasion. Usually, when they have seen a copy of my passport that I carry with me they let me go. However, there have been a few times when they tried some bullshit with me by saying copies were not sufficient, that I needed my ACTUAL passport. In EVERY case I have stood my ground and told them that I KNEW copies were acceptable. When they push the subject, I just extend my hands and tell them to go ahead and arrest me for it. You know what happens? They back down LIKE BITCHES every single time.
Quote: (02-17-2012 11:37 AM)TudoBem Wrote:
In no way does this reflect my personal feeling towards an officer, it is merely the most practical and efficient way for me to get through a particular situation and on to whatever I actually wanted to do that day.
Completely understood, but I am hard headed
![[Image: biggrin.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
. I would rather be inconvenienced then have my rights trampled on. Now, if I was driving drunk, or carrying drugs in my car, I would not be nearly as self-righteous as I am. I would be looking to pay off the first cop who asked. Then again, I don't do any of those things, so I don't concern myself with it.
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