[TravelerKai]

(07-18-2016 11:17 AM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  

Great Data Sheet, Kai. I just thought I would ad that the Ng Mui creation od Wing Chun story is a myth. I can elaborate on this if anyone is interested. There were 5 creators of the style 3 Buddhists and 2 Taoists. Bai Mei (White Eyebrow) was one of them. The reason it was distilled from the 5 animal Shaolin styles in addition to some of the Taoist styles_Hsing-I, Baguazheng was that these traditional CMA's took lifetimes to master as well as many being incomplete for reasons you mentioned (traditional Chinese secrecy, Masters dying without passing on the whole sysytem, etc.) So the 5 originators distilled the animal styles, mostly snake and crane, then added elements of the Taoist arts into a system that laymen could learn it quickly in order to create a citizen army to" defeat the Ching and restore the Ming" which was their rallying cry.

I began learning Wing Chun at 12 years old, I was lucky to have my soccer coach who was a Sifu in the Wong Sheung Leung lineage. I completed the whole system before I graduated high school then progressed to Western Boxing which I found much more effective in street fights.

The legend of WC in Hong Kong was mostly credited to WSL and his illegal rooftop Letai matches which he is reported to have won over 60 and was undefeated. Many people unfamiliar with CMA dont realize that Sifus dont teach beginners. It is predicated on the Sihing-Sidai relationship. Advanced students teach beginners. Sifu just observes and interacts with the highest level students. Ip man technically never taught Bruce Lee, WSL did, and as mentioned like William Cheung (whose father gave Ip Man a home to teach his son) only learned Si Lum Tau and Chum Kiu, the first two sets before they were proficient enough to start winning the many HK gang streetfights they were involved in. William Cheung (according to my Sifu) also accompanied Ip Man's daily trips to the Opium dens and brothels as somewhat of a bodyguard. Ip Man was a very reluctant teacher to say the least. The three movies have very little historical basis.

Eventually both Bruce and William Cheung got into so much trouble fighting their parents sent them abroad. WC to Australia and Bruce Lee to the US. Neither learned Biu Jee (the third and final non-weapons based system, or the Long Pole, Butterfly swords or the 108 Mook Jong set.) That is the beauty of WC is that good athletes can advance very quickly whereas I have seen many people train for years without ever fully grasping its integral concepts or practicing at a level where a beginning boxer couldn't knock them out.Wing Chun has the most myths added to its history than almost any MA.

I am very impressed with your knowledge of many of the worlds arts. I still believe from real world experience that Western Boxing, Muay Thai, and Phillipino Boxing are the most efficient systems for streetfighting with the caveat that a system is only as good as its practitioner. Bruce was exceptional because of his work ethic, natural athleticism as well as his history of being a champion ballroom dancer. His biggest asset, like William Cheung, was his willingness (like WSL) to test his skill in real life situations.

Ultimately there is no better system, just better athletes and fighters.

Also like to add I have met Master Chen. Chen style Tai Chi is truly an amazing martial art and the concept of Fa Jing should be learned by any martial artists. I used to compete in push hands competitions and even won an open weight class competition. I still love Boxing and it will always be my go to art in any self defense situation, there is a reason MMA is called Mixed Martial Arts. There is really no such thing as a "complete system" which is why Bruce Lee attempted to create one with JKD.

Kai, I would love for you to PM me the story of Bruce Lee and his fight with the Dim Mak expert.

I have heard versions of that story as well. Not very certain about how much is it is true. I think there might be a little truth to all of it in some regards. Many tried to simplify Shaolin Gong Fu around that time into something easier to learn. Hung Gar also fits this as well. Hung Gar and Wing Chun are usually identified as Southern Styles in general, even though they are very alike in some ways but very different in others. I do think she tooled the Wing Chun she knew to help battered women though, even if she had not originally came up with concept of Wing Chun itself. She had male students as well.

You can tell based upon the move sets that it definitely is easier for women to learn and use. Very little power or strength is needed if used correctly. Feints and hidden punches (deception). The lack of stronger kicks, no deep stances, show that is it a "hold your ground" style. Perhaps the first of it's kind. A battered woman likely is cornered by walls, etc. Something like Hung Gar is more broad, needs more room to work, and has alot more movesets for more situations.

Not calling it a feminine martial art, but it's movesets fit that narrative better than it probably should.

The weapons training in Wing Chun have always made me suspicious about who exactly added that and more importantly, WHEN.

All in all, it's interesting stuff. Please share more of the history you have heard if possible. Wing Chun may have alot of myths, and I agree on that, but I think CMA as a whole has much more. Over the years I have heard all kinds of wild shit or researched and found some on my own. I guess it is par for the course when you have a main system that is damn near 5,000 years old and splintered into nearly 100 main sub-systems and very little was written down.