I've dug up this old thread after reading OP's recent post here where he wrote:
Now, clearly VP is still pursuing some business plans in China, even though in the same post he admits:
When VP originally started this thread, I was somewhat concerned about his purely optimistic tone. There's nothing wrong with optimism, but it won't carry you that far in China.
There's some serious hurdles to overcome to be successful here. I'd guess that most of the people gaining a real benefit from China don't live here and already established a successful company elsewhere before attempting to expand sales to the mainland or had a killer product idea and simply came to China for the manufacturing capabilities offered here, but aren't based here, don't want to be and still view China as an exotic local that they occasional drop into for a few meetings and factory inspections.
The idea of coming to China as an individual to live and improve yourself and (as VP and many others have attempted to do) is a popular one. However, while I know a number of guys who are making consistent progress, it's definitely slow and steady win the race. VP was allegedly somewhat aware of this when he wrote at the beginning of this thread:
My concern with optimistic attitudes towards life and business in China is that people often seem to believe that those 3-5 years will be a continual march forward with the odd setback here and there, but mostly forward progress.
The experience I have had is that if you come to China seeking opportunities, instead of already holding value when you add China to the equation (such as having a line of product designs locked and loaded and investor's money or business startup capital sitting in a bank account), your first 3-5 years in China might simply be an education in what doesn't work in China.
There are only specific circumstances where coming to China is going to benefit a person.
(1) They stay long enough and learn enough Chinese to ultimately come up with product/service ideas that they wouldn't otherwise have thought of.
This is of course all contingent on being able to protect that product or service from competition and successfully marketing and selling the service to the Chinese marketplace without losing one's shirt in the process. I include this on this list, because it is a possibility (and oddly enough, the result that I'm in the process of pursuing), but my estimate is that you're going to need 5+ years in the country before this one becomes a real possibility.
Without a knowledge base that can only built up with long term experience, you're very unlikely to identify and respond to needs in the Chinese market fast that the locals can identify and respond to the same needs. The worst part is insulating yourself again competition even if you do, for which there are some legal and business means of doing so, but that doesn't mean it'll be easy or ultimately successful, especially in a country where there is always someone willing to do what you are doing for cheaper.
(2) When you can earn a better living and therefore (a) live a better lifestyle and (b) put more money towards your hustle(s) by working in China.
I've done this too. The job market in Canada was a joke when I finished up my formal education, so given that I'd already invested 3 years in China at that point and knew how to earn a good living here, simply moving back was the obvious choice. I didn't start a big thread about it, I just did it.
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Those are the only two reasons I can think of for moving to China, other than for a one or two year adventure just for the hell of it or personal development (because you'll probably grow a lot personally from living here).
For anyone else, the best way to figure China into your plans is as a possible manufacturing base or sales market after you have a solid product/business concept or are already running an established business.
This is why I believe that it's risky to see China too optimistically.
VP's original post at the beginning of this thread was very optimistic:
OP also went into quite a lot of detail about all of the jobs, jobs, jobs available.
My first question for VP is this: Out of all the opportunities that you raved about shortly after arriving, did any of them pay off in a meaningful way? And by meaningful, where you able to live a genuinely middle class existence by any Western standard?
I actually earn for more money that I think I would earn in Canada at this point in my life, but due to the expense of living in Beijing (where I can arguably earn more money than most places in China, my standard of living is nothing to brag about. It's not bad. I eat out as often as I want to. I've never missed a rent payment, despite living without roommates for the entirety of the last 3.5 years. When I was hustling for as much paying work as possible (back before I reduced my working hours to concentrate on product development), I lived in a very nice party pad (by China standards) that actually made some girls gasp when I walked them into it the first time. But at the same time, this was only possible because I didn't have to pay for a car and just paying rent left me broke more often than I'd like to admit. I've also never paid for life insurance and have some necessary dental treat that I've been delaying because I aside from living really, really cheap for 4 months or not going home to see family once a year, I'd struggle to pay for it.
So to repeat, with all the opportunity that you spoke of so glowingly, were you able to actually reach an income that supported a lifestyle that wouldn't essentially be that of a poor person's in Canada in the last 2.5 years? And by that, I mean a lifestyle involving not living in a substandard apartment, being able to afford a car if you want one, decent expat health insurance, etc.
Because if it hasn't, it might be time to retract your original claims of "all the amazing opportunities in China" because those claims are obviously not worth jack.
In 2.5 years, did anything come of this "mind blowing opportunity"?
How words does your Chinese vocabulary currently consist of? Would you rate the challenge of learning Chinese easier, comparable or more difficult than you originally anticipated?
I've already mentioned your Chinese language goal above, but how did the ecommerce biz work out? Are you generating at least 5KUS$/month?
It's only fair to follow up on your initial optimistic statements. Guys reading this thread today deserve to know how optimistic they should reasonably be and you're in the unique position (having carved your initial impressions into stone here in this thread) to follow up and give us an open account of your experiences in the last two and a half years.
My final question is, how many times did an opportunity not work out the way you anticipated and you felt like you were starting over again from square one?
This is an important question, because I think most people come to China expecting their journey to be hard, but to be continually taking one small step after another forward. I suspect that the reality is that many, after a few years of strong effort, simply discover that they've mostly been going in circles.
Quote: (12-27-2017 03:59 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
After living in China for 2.5 years, I'm seeing more and more the not so pleasant sides of China. The only reason I'm still here is that I'm building businesses, otherwise, I'd be out of here in the next 5 minutes!
Now, clearly VP is still pursuing some business plans in China, even though in the same post he admits:
Quote: (12-27-2017 03:59 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
Personally, I'm already looking at suppliers for our brand of products in other countries as we speak as I'm just sick of tired of all the BS that we had to go through just to place one order with them!
When VP originally started this thread, I was somewhat concerned about his purely optimistic tone. There's nothing wrong with optimism, but it won't carry you that far in China.
There's some serious hurdles to overcome to be successful here. I'd guess that most of the people gaining a real benefit from China don't live here and already established a successful company elsewhere before attempting to expand sales to the mainland or had a killer product idea and simply came to China for the manufacturing capabilities offered here, but aren't based here, don't want to be and still view China as an exotic local that they occasional drop into for a few meetings and factory inspections.
The idea of coming to China as an individual to live and improve yourself and (as VP and many others have attempted to do) is a popular one. However, while I know a number of guys who are making consistent progress, it's definitely slow and steady win the race. VP was allegedly somewhat aware of this when he wrote at the beginning of this thread:
Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
China is a mid-long term investment (think 3-5 years) that will yield very handsome dividends for anyone willing to put in the time.
My concern with optimistic attitudes towards life and business in China is that people often seem to believe that those 3-5 years will be a continual march forward with the odd setback here and there, but mostly forward progress.
The experience I have had is that if you come to China seeking opportunities, instead of already holding value when you add China to the equation (such as having a line of product designs locked and loaded and investor's money or business startup capital sitting in a bank account), your first 3-5 years in China might simply be an education in what doesn't work in China.
There are only specific circumstances where coming to China is going to benefit a person.
(1) They stay long enough and learn enough Chinese to ultimately come up with product/service ideas that they wouldn't otherwise have thought of.
This is of course all contingent on being able to protect that product or service from competition and successfully marketing and selling the service to the Chinese marketplace without losing one's shirt in the process. I include this on this list, because it is a possibility (and oddly enough, the result that I'm in the process of pursuing), but my estimate is that you're going to need 5+ years in the country before this one becomes a real possibility.
Without a knowledge base that can only built up with long term experience, you're very unlikely to identify and respond to needs in the Chinese market fast that the locals can identify and respond to the same needs. The worst part is insulating yourself again competition even if you do, for which there are some legal and business means of doing so, but that doesn't mean it'll be easy or ultimately successful, especially in a country where there is always someone willing to do what you are doing for cheaper.
(2) When you can earn a better living and therefore (a) live a better lifestyle and (b) put more money towards your hustle(s) by working in China.
I've done this too. The job market in Canada was a joke when I finished up my formal education, so given that I'd already invested 3 years in China at that point and knew how to earn a good living here, simply moving back was the obvious choice. I didn't start a big thread about it, I just did it.
-
-
-
Those are the only two reasons I can think of for moving to China, other than for a one or two year adventure just for the hell of it or personal development (because you'll probably grow a lot personally from living here).
For anyone else, the best way to figure China into your plans is as a possible manufacturing base or sales market after you have a solid product/business concept or are already running an established business.
This is why I believe that it's risky to see China too optimistically.
VP's original post at the beginning of this thread was very optimistic:
Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
China is THE land of opportunties par excellence, in every aspect.
China is happening, it's a land of unlimited opportunities. Whether you're just starting your life after college or you've been working for a few years in the corporate grind, there's a better option and that is to build a real life here in China. In China, even as a relatively young and inexperienced guy, you can get access to or walk your way to interesting and fulfilling positions and career within a short time. Within 2-3 years you can achieve things that you could not even dream of achieving in 2-3 decades in the West. Why? Because China is happening and they are hungry for Western minds, ideas, creativity, expertise and experience.
As soon as you walk the streets in China, you notice an air of excitement around you. You sense the same kind of feeling of excitement that settlers in the New World must have felt at the beginning of the 18th century upon landing in what is now Canada and the US. A land filled with unlimited opportunities where dreams can and do come true. I have rarely been as excited as I am now and I've rarely felt as alive as I have been ever since I arrived in China almost 2 weeks ago. The excitement is very palpable. Not just in me but in anyone who's got any ounce of ambition in life.
China is THE hottest market in the world right now and for the foreseeable future. The locals spending power is exploding, their thirst for foreign goods and everything exotic (read not Chinese) is insatiable. The Chinese have money and they are looking to spend it on foreign goods and foreign expertise. This is where it's GREAT news for us, foreigners in China.
OP also went into quite a lot of detail about all of the jobs, jobs, jobs available.
Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
1. Land of Opportunities: Cool, Interesting and Fulfilling Jobs Galore!
I've had way more job offers thrown my way in the 2 weeks that I've been here and even before I got here than in the past 6 months in Toronto! And mind you, these are not just boring, mind numbing, soul crushing cubicle J.O.B.S!
I've had teaching gigs paying 150RMB/hr (31$/hr) for a guy with no prior teaching experience like me. The guy who offered me this gig said after each 100 hours worked, I'd get a raise of 20 RMBS (4 bucks)! So within 3 months, I could be making over 40 bucks an hour just to teach basic English to Chinese people! Looking at my resume, he said he could even get me gigs doing corporate training teaching business english charging a "LOT more than 150/hr".
Got approached by a Chinese company to work for them. Upon meeting with the Marketing VP, and after he explained to me what their business was, which I liked, I told the guy that currently, his company is only exposed to the English speaking market. With my language skills and marketing and business experience, I can get his company and services into markets that he currently doesn't have any exposure to, that is the French speaking market, comprised of 4 of the richest countries in the world (France, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Belgium), not to mention half of Africa. That is a market of about almost 400M people! With Portuguese and Spanish, I can get him into a market of half a billion people in Latin America! Combined, these 3 markets represent a whopping billion people potential new clients! Not to mention the Italian market, another 80 or so million!
As I was explaining this to him, I could see his mind going crazy and his eyes getting bigger and bigger! He said he's very interested and wants me to work with them. His initial offer was a peanuts base salary plus 8% commission on any sales I'd generate. I tactfully counter offered what I thought was a fair deal. He said he'll run it over with the owner first. A day later, he called me, saying the boss accepted and wanted to meet with me to sign the contract!
Another guy, foreigner, based in HZ for a few years, with his own import export company, approached me to help him expand his company into new markets using my skills. Since the guy flaked on me the day minutes before I was supposed to meet him, I've relegated him to the back of the queue for now.
My first question for VP is this: Out of all the opportunities that you raved about shortly after arriving, did any of them pay off in a meaningful way? And by meaningful, where you able to live a genuinely middle class existence by any Western standard?
I actually earn for more money that I think I would earn in Canada at this point in my life, but due to the expense of living in Beijing (where I can arguably earn more money than most places in China, my standard of living is nothing to brag about. It's not bad. I eat out as often as I want to. I've never missed a rent payment, despite living without roommates for the entirety of the last 3.5 years. When I was hustling for as much paying work as possible (back before I reduced my working hours to concentrate on product development), I lived in a very nice party pad (by China standards) that actually made some girls gasp when I walked them into it the first time. But at the same time, this was only possible because I didn't have to pay for a car and just paying rent left me broke more often than I'd like to admit. I've also never paid for life insurance and have some necessary dental treat that I've been delaying because I aside from living really, really cheap for 4 months or not going home to see family once a year, I'd struggle to pay for it.
So to repeat, with all the opportunity that you spoke of so glowingly, were you able to actually reach an income that supported a lifestyle that wouldn't essentially be that of a poor person's in Canada in the last 2.5 years? And by that, I mean a lifestyle involving not living in a substandard apartment, being able to afford a car if you want one, decent expat health insurance, etc.
Because if it hasn't, it might be time to retract your original claims of "all the amazing opportunities in China" because those claims are obviously not worth jack.
Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
The craziest thing is that I've had these offers without even trying other than just doing a short introduction on the expat wechat group in HZ through a contact from the Enter China private community! I can't even imagine what I'd get if i were to actively start looking or even better, started attending networking events! It simply is mind blowing!
In 2.5 years, did anything come of this "mind blowing opportunity"?
Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
At this time, my main focus is to learn Chinese asap. This would open a whole new world of incredible opportunities, work wise and business wise that I can't even imagine in my wildest dreams.
How words does your Chinese vocabulary currently consist of? Would you rate the challenge of learning Chinese easier, comparable or more difficult than you originally anticipated?
Quote: (09-20-2015 05:44 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:
[b]What are my goals for my first year in China?
- Being able to speak conversely in Chinese by the end of it.
- Having an ecommerce biz generating at least 5KUS$/month in profits by end of June 2016.
I've already mentioned your Chinese language goal above, but how did the ecommerce biz work out? Are you generating at least 5KUS$/month?
It's only fair to follow up on your initial optimistic statements. Guys reading this thread today deserve to know how optimistic they should reasonably be and you're in the unique position (having carved your initial impressions into stone here in this thread) to follow up and give us an open account of your experiences in the last two and a half years.
My final question is, how many times did an opportunity not work out the way you anticipated and you felt like you were starting over again from square one?
This is an important question, because I think most people come to China expecting their journey to be hard, but to be continually taking one small step after another forward. I suspect that the reality is that many, after a few years of strong effort, simply discover that they've mostly been going in circles.
I'm the King of Beijing!