[Samseau]

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The terms almost always favor her, you will lose out no matter how you cut it. Either your kids, your paycheck, your existing earnings... etc. In fact, the most perverse aspect of today's marriage laws is that the more successful your marriage has been, in terms of how long it has lasted, the more you stand to lose and her to gain if you divorce. Fucked, no?

I don't understand what you say. In California and other community property states, for example, it is 50/50 split of everything gained during marriage - no matter how long your marriage lasted, or whatever. Hard to see how those terms would favor her, unless the guy was a moron who married a girl which did not want to contribute to the marriage in any way. In that case it is not a problem with legal system either - the law did not force him to marry that particular girl. Could you provide a specific example?

If the woman divorces you, she gets the kids 80% of the time or whatever. For whatever stupid feminist reasons, the courts give physical custody to the women for the vast majority of cases. This is my biggest beef with divorce laws.

Next are the money issues. If you made more money, she gets more money. The spouse who contributes more to the marriage is the one more likely to be screwed in a divorce. It's reverse incentives at its finest.

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Not in my experience. Wives get bored regardless of where they live. In fact, couples usually live where the wives want to live. Most men today don't even have the balls to ask their wife to quit her job for the kids or stay in the house or whatever. Most wives get exactly what they want, in terms of logistics, and she will still get bored.

What you're essentially saying that some dudes out there are pussies who cannot stand up for their interests, so they got screwed. This is true, but again this definitely doesn't mean there is something wrong with marriage itself. If one does not want to put any effort to protect his own interests, why would anyone else do? The adult world is tough place, and those people who are doormats will get screwed by everyone, including their families, spouses, employers and so on.

This isn't about men being pussies, which most are. This is about women becoming bored regardless of their life-choices and moving onto other men. You state that most women become bored because men force women to stay at home. I say no, most women who become bored do so because women get bored easily, regardless of their surroundings. They whine and bitch about whatever they are doing and nothing changes that.

But I agree that standing up to your potential wife is a must.

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Sexual faithfulness only matters to me insomuch it matters to her. If she insists on strict monogamy, but then grows bored and flighty and were to cheat on me, I would probably feel destroyed in that I wasted years of my life being monogamous to a women who ultimately lies to me (by cheating on me).

What's important is her integrity, not her actual sexual behavior. If she tells me she wants a commitment but is actually someone who would grow bored and move onto some other dude (like most women I've seen as they get older). Conversely, if she says "I don't care if we sleep with other people, as long as we can stay together" then I would find this just as appealing. I want an honest woman over anything else. (less than 1% of girls, perhaps?)

This is the main reason sexual faithfulness in term of "sacred promise" has no value for me, because it forces people to do things which are not natural to a lot of them. Comparing to that, a non-monogamous marriage does not force any of you to have sex with others, so it is much less restrictive.

Considering that integrity is more important for you than sexual faithfulness, I'd suggest making it straight to any lady you're considering for LTR that "I don't care if we sleep with other people, as long as we can stay together". Explain the same rationale as you posted above - that a lot of people are discovering every day that they cannot be faithful, so you don't want your relationship to fall into the same trap. You may be genuinely surprised how many of them would agree to that.

I really like the idea of an open relationship type of thing. I'll try pushing for it, never really occurred to me women might find it acceptable. I've always assumed monogamy is the default relationship state for females.

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You may think I'm overly negative, but I'm reporting you the facts as I've experienced them from other older men's lives I've seen firsthand. Less than 80% of the men I've talked to who are over 40 years old have never been divorced. What a shit deal.

The Census statistics says the divorce rate for the first marriage is roughly 50%.

Fuck the census. Divorce stats have been unreliable for years.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/c...orces.html

Click on the first link. Open the excel sheet. Now observe how years 1998 and beyond have divorce stats which are completely compromised:

"Divorce rate excludes data for California, Colorado, Indiana, and Louisiana; population for this rate also excludes these states."

"Provisional data. Includes nonresidents of the United States."

I suspect divorce rates are around 60% for WHITES, at least.

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If mothers do such a good job, why are most people in this country so messed up in the dating scene? Why are white populations declining? This is all caused by a lack of proper rearing by the parents, and since women have more control over the children, it follows they are more to blame.

Using the same logic the fathers are the ones to blame as they surrendered all the control over the children education to women while limiting themselves to fishing, drinking and playing video games. For example, when I go to the kids playground in a public park, I'm typically the only guy here. And quite a few ladies mentioned that they would love it if their husbands also took a walk with kids, but they're always too busy or whatever.

You mean those husbands who have been banned from the house because they got divorced? Or the husbands who avoid their wives and dare not stand up to their wife because they know a divorce would rob him of his children?

Before no-fault divorce, birth rates were high, children grew up to be somewhat decent human beings. I do not interpret this as mere coincidence.

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Really? So all of those divorced couples were never attracted to each other when they got married? Why did they get married in the first place?

There may be a lot of reasons why they get married. Peer pressure (esp. families), legal issues (green cards), financial issues, pregnancy and so on.

So extremely high divorce rates are due people who are attracted to each other getting married because of peer pressure, legal issues, financial issues, pregnancy, and other external factors?

Somehow I doubt this. I think people are genuinely in love when they marry, but, as love is fleeting, divorce each other as they lose attraction for each other. And this happens despite of how balanced the relationships "value" is! Riddle me fucking that, batman.

Most older couples I see simply stay with each other out of obligation, not love. This is fine and dandy, but the problem is that few women will stay in a relationship out of loyalty. This is why finding a good wife is difficult.

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Okay, you have a rich wife. In this case, my nanny argument doesn't hold. But it does apply to many successful men who earn more than their wives.

No, I found a wife which works a lot, and makes probably 70% of what I make; the rest comes from her spending time on taking care of me and our kids. None of us came from rich families, and by Bay Area standards we're as rich as top 20% of local population.
My point, however, is that she is what I was looking for. I did not marry a random girl from the street expecting her to make similar to what I do, and I've disqualified well over 500 girls before I found her.

Now why those successful men married the ladies who earn much less than them if this was something important to them? I guess, because their other expectations were not balanced, and they had to compensate for the imbalance in value.

You raise a fair point and your decisions have served you well in life. I will remember what you have done.

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Obviously, you would need to do your research and weigh in the trade-offs. No country has a perfect situation. But if finding a good woman is important, then it's probably a smart alternative for most men.

I'd say if one has problems to find a good woman in their own cultural environment, it would be even more difficult in the different culture environment unless you know that different culture very well and you are into that. To give you an idea, it takes 2-3 years living here in US for a Russian to come to conclusion that our culture is so different from any Western culture that we are very unlikely to get a long-term healthy relationship with Westerns, no matter how good other qualities he or she would possess.

You might be right, I don't know. But foreign cultures seem to offer endless opportunities...

I don't care enough to continue the conversation about being married without a marriage certificate. It was just a thought experiment and I think you've sufficiently refuted it.

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I'm not counting on shit. I don't need a marriage and I don't want one if it means enslaving myself to a dying nation state.

This is fine as well - if you don't want to get married, nobody forces you to do so. You just need to be honest with yourself about that. The problem is not that marriage is wrong, or all local women are unfit to be married. The problem is that your expectations exceed your qualifications. Same as above: the problem is not there are no jobs in US. The problem is not even that there are no 10M a months jobs. There are. The problem is that you don't have qualifications to land such a job, which means your expectations exceed your qualifications.

What you can do is to say to yourself something like "I would only consider getting married when the value in relationship is very imbalanced. It is extremely unlikely that anyone of the similar value as mine would agree on those terms. This means I have to either work to add more value while keeping my expectations the same, or I have to accept the fact that I will never get married". Again, nothing wrong with that, especially if you're in early twenties.

I'm not sure why you make such claims; my expectations for a wife aren't very high. They are simple:

1. Gives good boners
2. Integrity (the toughest one!)
3. Not a bitch
4. Giving


She doesn't need to be a 10/10. She doesn't need a lot of money. She doesn't need to be smart (but it's a plus), or be good in bed (we can work on that). She only needs the above four things and I'd be happy. I'm not asking for much. And no, so far, after chasing girls for probably 2-3 years, on and off (between college and shit), can't even find one girl to display these qualities. The girls who give boners are invariably fucked up in some way, whereas the ugly ones are sweethearts. The search continues.

(In hindsight... I may have fucked it up with a girl I fucked over the summer. She was older than me by five years, but she seemed to meet the criteria listed above. Still, I didn't consider the idea of an open relationship and assumed she was expecting monogamy from me, which was too much. I knew as we aged the boner requirement would be lost.)