Quote: (07-15-2013 05:02 AM)CJ_W Wrote:
That's cool that you bring up the black on black crime and all but. . .uh. . .well. . .I'm not sure if the guys who committed the crime . . . .
got off after being put on trial.
of course, then the question is, what about white on white crime? why aren't people really outraged about that?
or better yet. . .
Crime at all? I mean I'm sure you've watched the news. . .
But yeah anyway, I figure that Lupe (and the OP who keeps posting stuff about him) is race trolling/baiting.
Most of the black people I know. ..aren't upset. Disappointed? A little, but stuff like this is not new, and probably wont change.
oh and BTW, there *IS* community outrage against black on black crime in black communities. . .A N D communities have done a LOT of things to end the violence, or at least try to. . .
(they just aren't covered on CNN and nationally. . .which is another can of worms dealing with"the powers that be," "the establishment" and and "the man" etc etc etc)
A LOT of bad neighborhoods have cleaned themselves up over the past 5 years(speaking from experience: when I came back from overseas, many of the *bad* neighborhoods weren't bad anymore etc etc)
But I kinda think that threads like these are trying to appease some twisted sense of white guilt. . .when it really isnt the case at all. . . someone was killed, and the killer pretty much got away with it. in other similar situations and other states, hell even on the FOUMS when Fisto made the thread about getting into a fight, there were TONS of posts form many of the members here, warning against fighting and how "if you hurt someone no matter the situation, you could be in prison for a long time - and if someone were to die, that's murder/manslaughter etc etc"
But of course that doesn't get applied to the situation here. The sentiment is here: "It's a black kid that got killed, it must have been his fault, it has nothing to do with the system, how we participate in it, and how we collude by placing the blame on the victim etc etc" A lot of you guys don't even view it as a human being who was murdered.
This is the true tragedy, as it seems that the people who are viewing black lives in such low regards, are many of the very members of the forum.
Of course, I don't blame you guys, I mean you guys see what you see. You see the stereotypes on T.V. movies, and radio. Then you apply that filter to those who look like that regardless is they're acting that way or not. I'd do the same thing too - and sometimes I do. . .I'm not exempt from this either. . .but I do acknowledge all of this, while it seems that many members here want to cease looking at themselves, and circlejerk off by "blaming, and berating black folks, or at least saying "you guys don't deserve to be angry"
I personally think this is pretty disappointing for members of this forum - who are for the most part, high-caliber members (or up and coming) of their societies. I was expecting more from you guys to be honest. At least a bit more than the same people who posts these types of "points" (and not looking at all the sides) on less kosher mediums(i.e. youtube, yahoo comments, etc etc.)
I think you guys can do better than that.
. . .that's all I really have to say. Enjoy it or not, it's up to you.
Sigh. I tried to refrain but couldn't resist.
Are we having a rational discussion here are we just emoting? I personally think that on a forum of men we can have a straightforward discussion about this case, even with the embedded race issues, without resorting to emotional insinuations that come with very little grounding in the incident or arguments at hand. I hope I'm not wrong.
There are many things you've brought up above that make zero sense at all (us telling Fisto not to fight in a 3rd world shithole has anything to do with this??? WTF) and others that definitely make zero sense in the context of this case.
I think everyone here has made it clear they think it's a bummer the kid got killed (if not in this thread than the other zimmerman/trayvon threads, which I sense you've been reading). Unfortunately, and this is an ugly responsibility of being an adult, choosing to have a rational discussion about it requires setting the deeper issue of human mortality aside for a second and looking at what makes sense based on the
facts.
Looking at an incident with such a cold calculation sucks. It is in fact not easy for anyone, but it's also required to come to reasonable conclusions of shitty situations that are never as clean-cut as we want them to be. Otherwise we're just sitting around having a pow-wow about a death, holding hands, and crying - which gets us nowhere.
Of course it sucks the kid is dead. This is a loss of a human life and a very young one at that. Life is fucked sometimes. Only the most evil of people in our society can wake up in the morning and wish that kind of end to anybody, and I feel I can confidently speak on behalf of 95% or more of the forum, including lurkers, that nobody here does wish for these types of things to happen (and only a mere 95% because this forum in particular has it's share of loony-ass lurkers).
But we can hardly come to realistic conclusions of the facts if we sit around dwelling in the emotions of the entire thing.
Let's say there's any shred of truth at all to Zimmerman's story, not that I expect you to entertain such a thought. Only supposing the slight chance of that exists, wouldn't you say it's fair to step back and take emotions out of it to look at what actually happened based on the facts rather than solely swim in the emotional waters?
Our entire justice system is built around the idea of taking this approach to the world. It's ugly work but that's what justice entails. We engage third parties to make decisions about what happened in situations that have nothing to do with them (I'm talking about judges, attornies, and juries of "peers") because people who are emotionally involved in something as horrendous as a murder case can't be expected to make rational conclusions. Emotions are, at their core, irrational.
And when irrational emotions get ahold of someone in a situation like Zimmerman without the protection of such a system, they get chewed up and hocked on the wall like a loogie. Which is great when you think he's an evil person but kind of sucks if you're
at all mistaken.
So implying that anyone who disagrees with your assertion of guilt must be a racist or somehow insensitive to the teen's death , when they're working from a foundation of looking at evidence and have laid out very rational reasoning, is just irresponsible.
Do you really think it's in the best interest of judgement to hand over Zimmerman to the mob? By mob I mean the ruthless court of public appeal that has been shown throughout history, over and over again, to not slow itself down enough to weigh the facts and give them a chance?
Doing so would be akin to completely deciding to throw out the idea of using courts to slow down the mob's angry teeth. And you could very likely even make a case for doing such a drastic thing that I'd listen to - hey I'm not 100% against anarchy - but be very careful about what you ask for in this world is all I can say. The tyranny of the majority can be a very frightening animal. And once we decide that's how we do things, we set foot on a very slippery slope.
I could go on about a few more ways in which the above post is flawed, but for now I'd really just suggest you bring more to this issue than your "feeling" that racism must somehow be involved if you want people to take you seriously. Not to mention at least quoting who you're talking to when you say "you" and try to use actual examples before accusing people of being racists.
Particularly telling, for instance, is your mention of white guilt in a case that involved zero white people - something white-people shamers continually ignore regarding this issue. Many of us who disagree with you are more than happy to hear your ideas, but I highly suggest addressing it at some point if you wish to be taken seriously.
I will conclude by saying that white people are interested in this case because others are pointing the finger at them for something a hispanic did. If people weren't doing that, this case would very interestingly have never made it to the national conscious to begin with. White people responding to that misguided finger-pointing, or commenting on some high-profile blacks reaching that same conclusion, is hardly a case of "white guilt."
Saying it simply does not make it so.
Beyond All Seas
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling