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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 03:39 PM
Yeah, I never bought the argument that Asian children are naturally smarter or less creative that whites. It's mostly if not entirely environmental. Also isn't IQ in part determined by environment? It could be a positive feedback loop. Force yourself to study hard and you will become more intelligent than someone who doesn't.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 03:45 PM
The problem with using "Hard Work" is that it's non-measurable. So any assertions that "Hard Work" caused a differential result is non-scientific. Because Richard Nisbett cannot measure "Hard Work", it makes just as much sense for him to say that Chinese people succeed despite 93-average IQs, because invisible unicorns fart in the faces of newborn Chinese-Americans.
But I was lying about "Hard Work" being non-measurable. "Hard Work" is highly correlated to the Big Five Personality Trait named "Conscientiousness", which is the second-highest predictor of Academic Success, accounting for about 16% of it.
The highest-predictor of Academic Success is General Intelligence (a.k.a. IQ), which predicts at least 40% of it.
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Your article is interesting, but be very careful when people use "Hard Work" in the non-measurable sense.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 07:26 PM
Quote:Boss Of Bosses Wrote:
What else explains have a 7-point difference in IQ yet getting and succeeding in higher paying jobs? Luck?
That doesn't really matter.
What matters is that there are two contrary ways to study "Hard Work".
One, define it as "Conscientiousness", a Big Five Personality Trait that has been firmly scientifically established, and is measurable. When you do this, General Intelligence predicts Future Success by more than 200%.
Two, refuse to define it as "Conscientiousness" - which results in an undefined (and not scientifically study-able) term that people invoke to explain all sorts of things.
I think the first approach is better because it solves more problems, while the second is worse because it creates more problems. (And I also think that political agendas are the major reason that people use the second approach.)
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 07:33 PM
What about a third option - well-established avenues of cheating?
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 08:29 PM
Quote:Boss Of Bosses Wrote:
MMX2010, conscientiousness (the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant) is not the same thing as hard work. One is a basic approach or disposition, the other is an action.
Meanwhile, if you have a disposition to pay attention, you'll pay more attention. And if you have a disposition to remember large numbers of facts, you'll remember large numbers of facts.
Which is why Dispositions lead to Actions
Quote:BossOfBosses Wrote:
You're right it's difficult to measure "hard work" as it is somewhat subjective. So he measures it's effects in this study. That's what your missing.
No.
He.
Does.
Not.
To
actually measure the effects of "Hard Work" in this study, he would have to measure All Other Possible Contributions to Asian Success,
and then exclude them. (This is the natural consequence of trying to determine whether a non-measurable variable is causing anything to happen. If the variable you're studying is measurable, you measure it; but if it's not measurable, you prove that all of the measurable variables aren't contributing.)
Since Nisbett didn't exclude all possible measurable variables, he didn't determine the effects of Hard Work in his study. He merely speculated that it was causing Asian American success.
What happens when you speculate that a Feel Good variable is causing something to happen? A bunch of people who Feel Good about the speculation proclaim that it isn't speculation.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 08:58 PM
Quote:Boss Of Bosses Wrote:
You cannot measure "hard work" by measuring "conscientiousness".
Tell me your definition of Conscientiousness.
Quote:Boss Of Bosses Wrote:
What imaginary variables could contribute to differences in results with a larger impact than hard work or IQ?
(1) Racial solidarity.
(2) Two is below.
Quote:The Article Wrote:
Strong two-parent families are a factor, too. Divorce rates are much lower for many Asian-American communities than for Americans as a whole, and there’s evidence that two-parent households are less likely to sink into poverty and also have better outcomes for boys in particular.
(3) Three is below.
Quote:The Article Wrote:
Lee and Zhou, for their part, think that positive stereotyping may be part of an explanation for the success of Asian-Americans in school.
(4) Four is below.
Quote:The Article Wrote:
Lee and Zhou also say the success of Asian-Americans, far from revealing a lack of discrimination, is in part a testament to it. They say Asian-Americans work hard to succeed in areas with clear metrics like math and science in part as a protection against bias — and in any case, many Asians still perceive a “bamboo ceiling” that is hard to break through.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 09:11 PM
Im not sure they are so different. I knew id seen some articles about asians scamming australian universities , but when i googled, there was an equally impressive suite of articles about the same phenomenon in american unis.
It seems that just as there may be a cultural tendency towards "hard work" there may also be a cultural tendency towards cheating. If the pressure for grades is half as great as its reputed to be, its going to lead to more than a few having to fake it.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 11:30 PM
I can also attest to the asian-american work ethic since i'm from that background and saw it with peers at the time. Asian parents tend to drive their kids hard because that generation has a deep scarcity mentality brought upon by actual experiences of living in poverty.
Cheating is definitely a thing for some asians but it's hardly why Asian-americans do well in particular. Like Agastaya said that sort of thing is mostly coming from FOB international students.
I think it's a combination of factors involving IQ and cultural inclinations.
That's why if you started looking under a magnifying glass you'd see a big performance difference between southeast and northeast asians too. Southeast asians tend to have a different mentality and aren't influenced as much by confucian work ethic. Confucian work ethic is not too different from the protestant work ethic in practice.
People in the mainstream media tend to lump all asians together (including subcontinent people with southeast/northeast asians) which is patently ridiculous.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-12-2018, 11:33 PM
Have you seen how disciplined their ancestors were? I'm sure that discipline and a desire to always do their best in whatever task they undertake is a huge factor as well. In the times of the samurai, men would dedicate their entire lives to the study of the sword, and would not stop short of mastery. Some of this must surely come into play.
"Money over bitches, nigga stick to the script." - Jay-Z
They gonna love me for my ambition.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-13-2018, 03:06 AM
Cheating is not in the least bit the reason for the success of Asians in America. I’m sure that some FOB engineers may get run through the system withour being properly qualified, but that has a microscopic impaxt on the experience of Asians who were born in America.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-13-2018, 03:18 AM
When the white kids are out smoking weed and fucking around the Chinese kids are studying or doing their piano lessons. It's not hard to get better grades in that situation.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-13-2018, 04:24 AM
In this particular phenomenon I would say the 'hard work' being done here would be all the endless hours spent memorizing mounds of data and than being able to spit it out in the near future in a coherent way that assures good grades. The East Asian school system is almost geared entirely around this. Having a high IQ and all the traits that are associated with a high IQ such as memory no doubt greatly assists in this, but a lack of IQ can be compensated for by simply investing more time and effort. David Li might be able to memorize 30 vocabulary words in half the time Raymond Zhou because of his higher IQ, but if Raymond Zhou is willing to put in twice the amount of time than when quiz time comes, they're going to get the same results.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-13-2018, 04:25 AM
Hard work = conscientiousness which is a component of virtually all success in life.
That said, I'd Asians have the positive "smart" stereotype working for them, so people may be more apt to overestimate an Asian intelligence and attribute their good ideas to intelligence rather than luck or hard work. I mean, it's better than being black and having everyone think all your success was due to affirmative action or handouts. Haha. So I got no hate for my asian bros.
That said, I'd say, as a man living in China, that Asian (chinese-specifically) IQ is vastly overrated and, perhaps, overstated in many cases. Lotta dumb asians just like any other race. I don't buy the "average Chinese IQ of 100" line at all.
I will be checking my PMs weekly, so you can catch me there. I will not be posting.
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Asian American academic achievement - hard work rather than IQ?
01-13-2018, 06:51 AM
IQ testing results in China are not super reliable but we places like Japan/Korea/Hong Kong are much more so. They consistently show higher than 100 scores. If you look at things like SAT scores in the US you see the same thing. I would argue it is clearly a combination of the 2 though. Some of the FOB Asians would have to be kicked out of the library in college, while the frat guys were getting drunk on the weekends they were pounding out math problems.
To the point on cheating that is definitely true in China/India, but cheating on something like the SAT's in America is not possible and we see the same overall trends.