Quote: (06-27-2017 11:12 AM)StackGsMan Wrote:
@Noir
First off, thanks for taking the time to respond. I am honestly trying to try to understand and accept the position you and a couple of others are taking.
Sure mate, no worries, we are here to help in whatever capacity we can.
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In response to what you wrote:
a. I agree virginity is a big issue to girls. I am not entirely oblivious and walking through life with no sense. I just think it is a case by case basis. I am dealing with another virgin and I think there is as close to zero percent chance that I will break her hymen as possible, even if she begs me to. That is because she comes from a very conservative culture and since I know that I won't marry her I don't want her to have trouble finding a man or to be attacked by her family because I wanted to get laid. The girl that I referenced at the beginning of this thread, however, is an entirely different issue. I have enough sense to be able to tell the difference, and since I don't agree with your set in stone rule, it is a non issue for me. I am just trying to understand because if I am in fact wrong I want to know why and change my outlook and actions.
Fair enough, like I said, this is advice and we are pinging off what you have put out here in the thread. Rules exist to give a framework to work within and while it may not apply to this situation, as you mention, it's a generalization that will work throughout your life.
If she is happy then there is no wrong but at the risk of repeating myself, you can pump and dump virgins but the headache ain't worth it. If you are fine with it, then fine. I also used to be fine with it.
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b. I agree about how being a good guy is defined. I say I'm a good guy because by my definition I know I am. I get the comment that I have a good heart more than anything else, and it isn't because I'm a cuck beta or whatever. I don't personally know anyone that I think has a kinder heart than me. Since this girl feels the way she does and because I took her virginity I have decided to give her my time and money and energy so I do in fact leave her better off than when I found her. On Sunday I even left my family and got up at 7 am to go pick her up to take her to the doctor and spent about 5 hours with her. I am not saying that makes me a saint, but as far as I am concerned I am a good guy.
Of course, but I can't help but feel you are missing the big picture here. It's expectation management. Does she know you are going to bounce? Your OP makes it seem otherwise. If you are an inherently good person, then fine but it doesn't change the situation.
You can build 1000 bridges and suck one dick, people will remember you as the dick-sucker, not the bridge builder.
Again, this is an analogy before anyone jumps in with the 'don't give a shit about others' opinions' etc.
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c. . I was trying to say that few virgins, at least in the US, end up in an entirely successful LTR with the guy that takes their virginity. My thought process is more akin to the following. Let's say a virgin gets with a guy and they get married and have two kids and the relationship falls apart. He is abusive physically and emotionally, he doesn't do his part financially, he cheats on her, and when he leaves he doesn't properly take care of his kids. Let's say in this example the couple originally intended to stay together forever. Now another guy comes along and takes a girl's virginity with no intention of marrying her or even staying with her long term past a few months. But in this case the guy makes the girl feel so many amazing emotions and feelings that she hasn't ever experienced and now she has a heightened view of the good in humanity and men. Which is a better scenario in your opinion? Which scenario leaves the girl better off and gives her a better view of men as well?
Your perfect examples and framing =/= the reality of the situation. No point harping over what went wrong as you are now focused on solutions, not problems. I get that. The fundamental point her is let her off easily and communicate what is happening or even better, fade out. Nonetheless, both of your examples are not a happy ending and might as well could be the same shit because you are dealing with broken women.
First is broken from a marriage failing, second is broken from her fantasy of marriage (yes they imagine this in such states of mind) and then being left.
It creates cognitive dissonance in your partner and leaves them paranoid. I know this because I have been the person to do this and also the person who fucked the women after this happened.
Again, who cares right, but it's not as concrete as you make it out to be. It's not a good vs bad dichotomy.
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d. I agree that the morality issue is something different than what you were getting at, and the example I gave above doesn't address your argument. It should be clear at this point in time I do not understand or accept your version of morality (although I am open to it), and I think reality is far more in my favor than in yours. An abstract notion of morality is fine and good, but to me reality is what dictates how I should move through life. Let's say we both believe in Jesus very strongly. To really break it down beyond reason (and I am not saying this is all he was trying to tell humanity) let us say he said when someone hits you, offer then the other cheek to hit as well. Now someone kills your mother viciously and for no reason. Will you turn the other cheek and let him kill your father as well? Should we allow a murder to run around because we forgive him? My answer would be no, not because I don't believe in Jesus' teaching, but because the nature of this world is such that I believe we have to do certain things that are contrary to our abstract notions of morality and the way the world should be. So again, I want to understand your morality, but I still don't see why it is relevant or useful at all.
Indeed, our concepts of morality are different as your example is apple and oranges.
It just comes down to not being a cunt if you can avoid it. No one is getting killed on my watch.
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e. I know no one is here to convince me. No one here owes anything to me. Maybe I misspoke. I should have said if you feel passionately about this matter and care enough to potentially change my mind for what you perceive to be the better, let's continue a dialogue. If not, that is fine. All I'm saying is if so, I'm willing to listen. At this point if over the next 10 years I am presented with 100 more virgins that I don't feel I will be destroying the lives of or hurting, and in my view if I would be leaving them better off, then I would still continue with what I did with this girl. If that is unwise or immoral to you, please, convince me otherwise. If you "aren't here to convince" me, then so be it.
I am open to a dialogue but it seems there is an impasse here.
a) you need to clean up your mess given your current situation
b) this is one virgin that has presented a situation that you started a thread about
c) you are basing your future behavioural patterns towards them based off this
d) you say you won't be destroying, i am saying you can still bang better, more experienced girls who
are more suitable for pumping and dumping. That's pretty much it, less of a headache.
It's a cost-benefit approach from a players' perspective.
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f. You must have misunderstood. I did not say I would try what you are calling blackmail on this particular girl or on any virgin. I was just throwing out the idea as a possible way to get rid of a certain type of girl. I don't think demanding a certain type of girl to have a threesome with me or else we need to be open to other people is sociopathic. So are you saying that if I meet a girl and get serious with her and she is only open to vanilla sex I am supposed to have vanilla sex for the rest of my life? Like 365 days of missionary for 30 years? I also think it is unwise and ridiculous to tattoo on my forehead that a threesome is required to be with me (saying it very early on and upfront). Should I never ask for anal sex? Never ask to try bondage? Never ask for a blowjob? I think you are entirely wrong about it being blackmail, I just want certain things as a man and as a human and I have the right to ask for them. If she agrees then I get what I want, and if she disagrees she should find someone who better fits who she is.
Nah, now you are putting words in my mouth. What I said, I meant and re-read it. It's obvious. I don't want something so I will impose difficult demands to ensure she leaves. She leaves and wonders, 'well I did everything else right so it must be the fact that I didn't have a threesome that he left' when in reality, it's bullshit and I quote you "to get rid of a girl the best way".
Get out of here with your anti-vanilla sex parade. Everything I write is based off what you're putting out in this thread. No hard feelings.
You are backtracking and rationalizing like a woman, just to be right here
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Speaking of blackmail and ransom, I honestly think your position on virginity is 100% blackmail and ransom. If I want to have sex with a girl and she is a virgin, I have to either entirely forget about it or I have to potentially commit to 90 years of life with her (lets say we meet at 20 and both die well beyond the average age of death)? I have to be willing to give at least half of the wealth I bust my ass for, and in many cases more, just because she hasn't had a dick in her? If she even had one dick in her you are saying it is entirely appropriate to disregard everything you have been arguing? You don't think this is the most epic blackmail of all time? Because I do.
My position is not to bother with virgins because they are a headache and clingy. They want a lot of things. I did this, years ago and this girl wanted to marry me. I moved to RSA and she was in Amsterdam and sent a postcard to my address. She tracked me down. 2 years later. All because I went to Amsterdam when I was seeing her and told her she would like it. (yes I was seeing 2 other girls too).
My exit strategy was leaving the country (lol).
Again you are making assumptions that because we disagree, my position automatically is at the other end of the spectrum. Everything comes to a natural end. You can also define what the natural end is by how you set the tone.
Specifically, you mention in OP:
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She told me several times before we had sex about how she is worried that I will disappear on her afterwards. I like her enough that I would continue to see her if the logistics of the situation weren't so terrible. She has no car and lives 35 minutes away with no traffic, and because both of us stay with family we always have to go out somewhere. The time commitment and financial commitment is beyond what I care to continue.
You obviously failed to frame your relationship appropriately.
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About cutting my dick off and all that. What culture would this be that you are saying condones this?
Greek. I am sure el mech would do the same, it's just the way we are wired.
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Maybe so, but I guess that would also mean that if I steal a loaf of bread from a rich man to feed my starving children then I should have my hands cut off and then not be able to provide for my family for a few dollars worth of bread.
You truly have a talent for conjuring points out of thin air, stretching a point to make a completely different moral point.
You are seriously equating now, a guy who apparently fucks multiple women (read: has food), fucking a virgin as a robin hood who is providing for his family?
You are stealing from the rich (the virgin) to feed your family (???)
Is this based off some interpretation of Sharia law and your Saudi comment or the virgin you are fucking?
I really don't know and I am sure I must have misunderstood but it made me laugh.
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I really don't think you are being serious about that violent comment. I say that because this is the internet and people say shit like that a lot, and I hope you have more sense than that. You honestly think it is wise to kill a man, go to prison for life, and potentially never be able to hug your daughter and help raise her just because a guy didn't commit to her and took her virginity? This is exactly why your morality doesn't make sense. Again, abstraction vs. reality.
Yes mate, correct, it's the internet and it's an expression to show how anti-that I would be if it was my sister. I lack the expertise and persuasive ability to cut someone's dick off and feed it to them.
Seriously though, I understand your point but let's be realistic here. A figure of speech, is a figure of speech. Don't use that as a justification that my perspective or morality is inaccurate.
Let's be real and understand that it means that I would be pissed off, if I found out that this guy fucked my virgin sister who is early 20s (saving her virginity, it's not by accident usually) and is banging 10 other women and posting on a forum on ways to weasel out of it.
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Honesty up front vs. getting rid of a girl is a different issue. I think honestly can be a great way of living. In fact, I decided for years to only speak truth to the extent that I could. Again, in reality it isn't the way to go to put it lightly.
I am seeing many girls at the moment. Basically 90% of them would have cut the interaction off very early on had I told them the entire truth, which is that I would be happy to fuck you on the first date and only see you as long as I'm in town and if and when I feel like it. That would only leave me with 10%, and that is after doing tons and tons of approaches that didn't amount to anything. I intend to get better at this and move towards being a better man as quickly as possible, which is the real reason I am going the route I am. But look, if you want to make an omelette you need to crack a few eggs.
Yes, there is a difference between being honest and not telling the full truth unless being asked. It's useful and gives you plausible deniability.
You gotta assign a certain weight to what you are honest about and what you aren't honest about (or leave out).
Do what you gotta do, I mean, if you read through my posts, you will quickly see what side of the fence I am on. I do the same, did the same and when single again will probably do the same.
That is irrelevant to where you are currently as per posts echoed by Leonard and others.
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My goal is, has been, and always will be to leave the girl better off than when I found her. If I thought I was doing otherwise with this virgin, then I wouldn't have slept with her.
But once again, I just brought up the virgin to give context to the real reason why I started this thread. I really wasn't looking for any opinions on virginity, but I am an open minded guy and am willing to listen and change my ways if I think it will be better for myself, the women I know, and the world at large.
It seems you are anything but open minded mate and that's fine. You don't have to be. I told you what I think would be better for yourself and the world at large. Matter of fact, I dedicated a sum total of around 40 minutes to it.
You can shy away from the fact that you went into this thinking otherwise and now that shit hasn't turned out as you may have anticipated, you are looking for a way out.
OP:
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At the same time I don't want to be a huge asshole and just ghost on her.
Proceed to defend vs. any forms of advice to avoid being an asshole.
Sorry mate, this is the 'non-asshole' route.
We are operating within the paradigm of discussion set by, you.
I ain't interested in a tennis match about morality.
I say man up and address it or fade away.
Those are your only two options actually.
Actually, why not ask one of your multiple partners, what they think?
Best of luck, however you handle this.