Appreciate the feedback from everyone.

I definitely understand rationale behind the Next. Are flakes disrespectful? Absolutely. If flagrant, or ongoing, there's no question that it's best to keep it moving.

That said, here's why I believe nexting a soft flake is the wrong play.

1. It is not game over until she goes radio silence. If she's responding, the game is still on.

2. You've already invested time and energy getting your foot in the door. From an ROI perspective, I'd rather invest more and potentially get a win, rather than make the whole thing a total write off.

Case & point, I had a Swedish 9 flake on me twice last week. I felt frustrated, but kept my cool, and was able to get her out for a drink, which turned into a Swedish massage, followed by dome. Had I not checked my ego at the door, I would have missed out on this incredible experience.

3. The main reason; A woman is literally a different person after you fuck her. Her response time goes from hours/days, to mere minutes. You get bumped up to first class service & attention, while everyone else is still back there in coach. She behaves affectionately & sweetly. It's good to have standards, but it's just not accurate to judge a womans character pre-bang.

Are flakes disrespectful? Yes, completely. But deep down, there's a girl inside of her aching to act right for the right guy. Better to be that guy.

Quote: (04-06-2015 09:18 PM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

Appreciate the feedback from everyone.


That said, here's why I believe nexting a soft flake is the wrong play.

1. It is not game over until she goes radio silence. If she's responding, the game is still on.

Case & point, I had a Swedish 9 flake on me twice last week. I felt frustrated, but kept my cool, and was able to get her out for a drink, which turned into a Swedish massage, followed by dome. Had I not checked my ego at the door, I would have missed out on this incredible experience.

I agree if she is responding there's SOME chance, but what exactly do you mean by "flake" with Miss Swedo-nine here?

"No-show" without cancellation is totally different from cancellation with apology the night before.

Quote: (04-06-2015 09:20 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

I agree if she is responding there's SOME chance, but what exactly do you mean by "flake" with Miss Swedo-nine here?

"No-show" without cancellation is totally different from cancellation with apology the night before.

Agreed. A hard flake without any communication is different. I'm referring to soft flake, when she gives you reason why.

Quote: (04-06-2015 08:42 PM)CH-Toronto Wrote:  

Got flaked on last night from a Tinder girl. Plans seemed to have been set and in the end... nothing. I want to text her and say, "Ummm what happened?" but I know that's what she wants and if I do that - she 'wins'. Fucking Christ.

Quote: (04-06-2015 02:19 PM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

She has a slight headache from tilting her head just so for the last 15 minutes to get just the right amount of cleavage for a couch selfie

This was literally every pic of her. For my area - she was the hottest girl off Tinder I had seen. I think there should be a "post pics of girls who flaked on you thread" to help serve as a warning to other members.

Since that person only existed in pictures for you, for all you know, you got catfished.

Look at it as a favor, you no longer have to invest anything in that.

I agree with Blurred in that it's imperative to keep your emotions out of this. Some of these things are part of the game. You have to be mentally and emotionally strong enough to play this game, because everybody is not going to act the way you would or the way you'd reasonably expect them to.

I prefer a hardlined approach because it means you have standards.

We operate within institutions all the time that have set rules and standards. Those institutions don't conform to your behavior, you're expected to step your game up and act accordingly.

Your boss doesn't say, "Look, we know you're late every day so why don't you come in 30 minutes later, then perhaps as a result, you'll actually be here on time."

Your boss says, "Look, I need someone who is going to be here consistently on time. You have not demonstrated to me that you can be that someone, so I'm going to have to give the opportunity to someone else."

It's time for you to start acting like a boss.

When you don't have rules, then the women make the rules, and you find yourself playing some fucked up game in which they'll make you deal with anything because you'll delude yourself into believing there is something in it for you later on.

We can't expect to sit here and just let women operate in any kind of disrespectful way they want to, and then get mad that the collective quality of women out here is so low.

I also reject the women are this and that argument, because if you ever pay attention to women with other women, they aren't the things that you believe they are.

A girl wouldn't leave her friend waiting at Starbucks for her and then just text her a bullshit excuse or not even contact her at all.

Women will put time, effort, energy, etc. into dealings with other women.

But with men, it's supposedly different. Men give them all these outs for why they behave the way they behave. That is just them running game on you.

When something real is potentially on the line, she'll take you seriously.

When you're just the next dude, and she's already got at least another dude in her life who's giving her at least one thing she needs, then you are fungible to her, and she'll treat you as such.

That is a more honest assessment than "Nah dawg, she still likes you, just keep gaming."

I would automatically assume otherwise, and then let her prove me wrong, if that's what she really wants to do -- it's apparent that in some cases that has happened, or she was down after she was done/tired with the other dick she was dealing with which made her not feel like she needed to sweat yours.

Quote: (04-06-2015 09:29 PM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

I'm referring to soft flake, when she gives you reason why.

Right, to me that's rescheduling, not flaking.

Flaking = bullshit reason with little notice or no notice/explanation at all

Quote: (04-06-2015 09:30 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Since that person only existed in pictures for you, for all you know, you got catfished.

Look at it as a favor, you no longer have to invest anything in that.

I think what "got" to me is that I gave her an out 30 minutes before the flake. She didn't want me to have the power to end it - she wanted to be control.

Hard to believe that it's 2015 and there are still guys doing full on mental gymnastics to chalk up everything to game and sidestep the question of their SMV. Now there is something to be said about persisting, remaining unaffected, and "restart" texting, as it capitalizes on variable windows of availability and has gotten me a couple lays and dates I might otherwise not have. But in the normal course, when a girl nexts you, it can be explained by very simple market forces: she doesn't need you and she doesn't care about you, because she has someone better.

Quote: (04-06-2015 10:29 PM)civpro Wrote:  

But in the normal course, when a girl nexts you, it can be explained by very simple market forces: she doesn't need you and she doesn't care about you, because she has someone better.

Nah, it's not that she has someone better, it's that she has someone.

She doesn't know you well enough to make an informed decision on who is better.

If the dude in her life is actually better, she will reject you from jump.

Girls who are in "happy" relationships that are in good places with men they want to be with aren't giving their numbers out to random dudes and making plans to meet up with them.

That game is played by chicks who have no dick at all, chicks who are in between relationships and taking fuck buddy, holdover dick until they get locked down again, and chicks who are in unhappy relationships and they are trying to find the next dude who gives them an excuse to finally leave the boyfriend they've wanted to dump, but won't do it until they have a soft place to land.

It's really just a matter of orbiters. Any woman above a 5 in the US who isn't eligible to step in the ring with Riddick Bowe has anywhere between 10-20 full-time orbiters and possibly 40-50 part-time orbiters. Each time she unlocks the main screen on her phone, there's a revolving door of standard texts, KIK, snapchat, whatsapp, facebook/facebook likes, instagram comments/likes, etc. If she's on any sort of dating site, she's getting at least 15-20 messages a day, a lot of those being repeat messages from orbiters, but they're still there.

It was different before smartphones & social media. Social media itself didn't create the orbit problem, Women had orbiters, but nothing like today.

Quote: (04-07-2015 12:38 AM)la_mode Wrote:  

It's really just a matter of orbiters. Any woman above a 5 in the US who isn't eligible to step in the ring with Riddick Bowe has anywhere between 10-20 full-time orbiters and possibly 40-50 part-time orbiters. Each time she unlocks the main screen on her phone, there's a revolving door of standard texts, KIK, snapchat, whatsapp, facebook/facebook likes, instagram comments/likes, etc. If she's on any sort of dating site, she's getting at least 15-20 messages a day, a lot of those being repeat messages from orbiters, but they're still there.

It was different before smartphones & social media. Social media itself didn't create the orbit problem, Women had orbiters, but nothing like today.

Yeah, we are in post-Smartphone Apocalypse world, and the first generation of Smartphone Spinsters is being bred.

They will, in shock start to see guys WAY TOO GROSS TO CONSIDER hitting on them when they are still really YOUNG, like 32!!

A few years ago, I was hitting on a much younger American girl and she messaged back "It sucks to be you."

She doesn't realize in a few years she be getting that message silently, because men are rarely that rude to a girl they're rejecting.

I stopped caring about flaking. I invite them along to things I'm doing anyway. So it doesn't even matter if they flake. I'm there to entertain myself not them.

Quote: (04-06-2015 06:12 PM)jariel Wrote:  

I've read this post a couple of times just to ensure that I'm not missing something, but I'm definitely not agreeing with the premise.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

A girl meets a guy she purports to like, he invites her out, she accepts, then she cancels as a shit test to weed him out from other suitors. She still likes him, she just wants to see if he's that dude?

I'm conscious of the fact that chicks sometimes sabotage their relationships, but in the moment of doing that, they're usually unaware that that is what they are doing.

Flaking is a clear sign of disrespect, and it's done on a completely conscious level.

Let's not romanticize it into something like a "shit test" that ultimately you can pass by being persistent.

Some of the messages within the game community are ass backwards.

It's not your job to work for her, it's her job to work for you.

If you have an interview for a job that you really want, chances are, you're going to do everything you possibly could to give yourself the best shot at getting that job.

You're the job, and she's the person being interviewed.

Flaking is bad for your business, and you shouldn't want anything to do with anything that is bad for your business.

I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just say that more often than not, if a girl isn't going to see through the plans she's made with you, then she decided at some point, for whatever reason, that she didn't want to.

There are just too many women in the world out here for us to be giving multiple chances to someone who's proven nothing other than that they don't respect you, which is evidenced by the fact that they took the time to make plans that they never intended on going through with -- if something legit happened and she's still down, that's called rescheduling, not flaking.

Which goes to say, if she cancels with a legit reason, SHE should propose a better time immediately without hesitation to do so, not you.

Completely agree with women being the ones to do the work. It's our job to show initial interest, and inject enough game early on to get the ball rolling.

E.g. An ex of mine, I had some of best sex ever with her, she actually claimed that first. I knew it wouldn't work after the relationship failed, but for fuck's sakes, we decided to keep fucking.

You know what the "persistent" guys get she chats with? 0, zilch, nothing except her emotional tampon ooze. Thanks persistent guys. I'm slamming the daylights out of the girl you're catering to 24/7 and taking out for dinner and a kiss on the lips that were just wrapped around my dick.

You should just have to get those initial hooks in for her to remain curious enough to show reliability from the start. If she's not reliable at first, she never will be.

I agree with nearly everything that jariel wrote, but think that there isn't that much disagreement between posters on this thread. The OP is talking about soft flakes, in other words, girls that flaked with genuine reasons. As he says, those girls will almost immediately rearrange with you.

Assuming this is the case then the correct response to her 'sorry I can't make it blah blah blah' text is to ignore it for a bit to get her hamster spinning, then respond laconically and suggest that she put forward a few dates when she can make it and you will try to arrange to see her. If she doesn't comply then next her. If she wriggles and starts putting conditionals then prepare yourself to next her very soon.

However, what your shouldn't be doing is becoming the beta orbiter that is trying to ingratiate yourself with a girl who flaked on you. It's not a shit test, it's usually because she's just being a cunt who gets an ego rush out of doing it, and an anecdote to laugh about with her friends on the weekend.

Again, ask yourselves this: how many girls have you actually laid after they flaked on you and didn't rearrange almost immediately?

For online dating I have a one strike policy for first date flaking. If she flakes for any reason she's out automatically. That is unless she provides a concrete counteroffer to meet up later in the week. If she's not clear with counteroffer like saying "perhaps next week" then I delete her number as well. That's my rule for online.

It's impossible to judge what is genuine or not given the amount of horse shit excuses you'd get when a woman flakes on you - remembering suddenly on the day of the date that "my best friend died and it will take me 3 weeks to get over it", "my grandma is terminally ill and I have to tend to her every waking hour" etc. Funnily enough I've tested these excuses to flake on women and they can usually see right through it responding with something with "it's OK I could tell it wasn't happening since I didn't hear from you for a couple of days". There are so many options out there online it's pointless risking your frame for an actual date with a previous flake where you'd probably be wasting your time anyway.

I disagree even with some of the RSD guys on this. You'd see Jeffy trying to relaunch potential dates of girls who flaked in the past in his Program with some value adding texts. A bit strange for a guy banging girls left, right and centre, perhaps he's just intrigued by the challenge, and not many people can reach those levels, but personally I have better things to do.

I have however banged past flakes I have met in other scenarios such as college and some have turned into girlfriends but I could sense the chemistry there in real life rather than the virtual world of a million cocks and vaginas where every guy is completely disposable. Even if you had near Brad Pitt photos online you'd get flaked on and ghosted on, it's an attention deficit disorder game for girls. For a few minutes they chat to you and show their friends about this hot guy on the Internet and later they are out and about with their friends or out seeing their auntie and literally forget all about you. Next time they go online many a time they turn to other guys to talk to, like playing a new version of Candy Crush.

She's worth nothing, better let her know that soon, or we will have a growing number of entitled bitches among the masses. Oh wait, it's already happened.

I get a lot of pleasure from girls wailing and moaning after I tell them they missed their chance because of flaking.

We react so strongly to flaking partly because of the human loss aversion psychology: we feel losses more strongly than wins.

I've flaked on girls before. Reasons were because I already hit it, I had better option, or just didn't feel like making an effort. Interest level not sufficiently high.

The "solution" to flaking is more women, which is generally the solution to any problem with girls.

1. Get new girl contact info and set date
2. If girl cancels or cancel/reschedule, do not get upset and just slot into low-priority category. Do not delete number.
3. Re-contact low priority girl 1-2 weeks later (could be less or more, no hard rule); consider sending picture instead of text to make it more interesting. Want positive emotional spike.
4. Go back to 1.

I think the analysis by Courage is probably correct, but I don't think it's necessary to figure out what they're thinking. Both men and women think in surprising ways, and since you cannot control what they think, nor even predict it, it's not worth worrying about. I firmly believe more thinking does not result in better outcomes, but more action almost always does.

Most negative reactions to flakes are a result of not enough women in the pipeline. It's like the difference between a mosquito bite and a shark bite.

It can be a shittest.. or million other random things going on in girl's life. whatever.

random story: i was with a girl in her car [parked] and her phone rang. she didn't pick up saying she doesn't do it when she's driving. point is.. we can't really tell what's going.

ps. jariel killed the thread

It's not like she's some slut. I loved this post because of the chic perspective. As a man, don't get caught up in your own head and emotions, since many times it has nothing to do with your game.

She's already in her PJs. As a man, understand the work a woman has to put in to go out. Men have to work to get dates, women have to work to go on dates.

Bored, she fields texts. Even attractive women with *no social life* get more attention than 99% of men. Don't sweat her not hanging on your every word.

He gets mad over text...Obv he just wanted to get in your pants. Simple, brief, and so true.

I'll add, we also live in a world where women *actually are* just as busy as men. Work, gym, drinks with friends...women have to fill their schedules too. Many times, she *actually is busy* and can't meet up with you.

And of course, there are a lot of worse places to be than "You're still in the running".

Quote: (04-06-2015 07:27 PM)jariel Wrote:  

One, I don't have time for it. Time is precious.

Two, I have options. Life is all about options.

It's only men who don't have options who have to put up with shit.

Here's a little tip for guys like me who are starting out in game and have little or no options most of the time. I always have an option!

1. Flakey girl
2. My freedom to find other girls who are interested.

You always will have #2 and that's my mindset to avoid putting up with bullshit even if it leaves me alone temporarily.

I'm a firm believer that flaking has nearly 100% to do with market.

Quote:Brodiaga Wrote:

Remember the last few girls you flaked on. Why?

I flaked when I had better options. When I didn't have better options, the girls were not attractive enough to waste my time and money on dates.

I don't think girls' reasons for flaking are very different.

This is the most relevant thing you can go by. I've canceled on girls because I either had better options and/or she was simply not interesting/attractive enough to me to want to put in the effort to go through with the date. I wasn't thirsty enough to go through with it.

Imagine the state of mind you have been in when you flaked on girls - now imagine that amplified.

I have had flake conversions, and I'm confident that it simply came down to options and timing. I've been in situations where I've turned down girls before because I had better options going for me, then I went back to those girls later when the "better options" didn't pan out or I was going through a dry spell etc. It's no different for girls - they are just far less thirsty than men because they have far more abundance.

We should probably have a flake thread (if there already isn't one). That way we can all help with responses.

Great first post +1

The only way that i have been dealing with flaking is this:

Book multiple dates at the same time and cancel/flake on the one that is least likely to fuck you. Its very tempting to book dates on seperate days. You are thinking, great i got a date set up wednsday, thursday and friday, one of them has to work right? Wrong. Most likely 1 or 2 of them will flake so why not prepare for that to happen? Book 2-3 dates on the same day. If none flake then start sexting, joking about ending up at your place after date, color of panties, you know the drill... If they are still good to go then ramp up the texts even more with pics and after that invite them directly to your place(house call). During this process at least one of them will say she isn't comfortable and flake. Now you've got one date set up that is highly likely to bang that night.

A way to deal with flaking and filtering out girls that will probably waste your time.

Interesting topic here...

Currently experiencing a situation where I met this girl and treated her different from other girls because I viewed her as LTR material. Went out with her a couple of times and was the total sponsor of those dates.

Recently, I sent her a text to hang out with me and her reply was "Sorry I can't. Got a lot to do today" with no suggestion of another day. I never replied after that and I haven't heard from her for almost 2 weeks now.

I'm hard on losses after spending on ladies without getting in their panties so I've been considering hitting her up for one last hail mary. What's your take?

Quote: (04-06-2015 04:13 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Quote: (04-06-2015 04:06 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

She's flaking because she's not that impressed.

How often do you think girls flake on Leonardo DiCaprio? I'd bet money that the answer is never.

That's fame game man, that's comparing orange's to apples.

Not all of us can be Leo...



Also, how much patience does one have ? When would you be considered an orbiter who'll talk to her but she flakes alot or says she's "busy"

With the right game and right girl, she'd MAKE time to hangout.

But I get it, girls can be busy or more busy than we are.

Question is....how long do you stay persistent and fun until you eject from her flaking/not hanging out ?

You're missing the forest for the trees. The point is that if she gets moist at the thought of then she's probably not going to flake. If you're boring to her and she's only marginally interested then she's probably going to flake.

Your job as a redpill male is to be at a higher level than any of her competition. If you're the one who is in better shape, more confident, and has more social power you aren't going to get flaked on...you're going to the one that girls flake on other guys to spread their legs for.

Either way it's a pretty simple rule. Forget they exist. It's easier to find a new female that is into what you offer than to try to win over one who's only "kinda" interested.

I've done that, and gotten bangs out of it, but they weren't memorable except for the hotness of the girls. They weren't enthusiastic like the other ones that would do anything I wanted to please me.

Dryspell ball emptiers.

Quote: (04-07-2015 12:29 PM)BullsEye Wrote:  

Interesting topic here...

Currently experiencing a situation where I met this girl and treated her different from other girls because I viewed her as LTR material. Went out with her a couple of times and was the total sponsor of those dates.

Recently, I sent her a text to hang out with me and her reply was "Sorry I can't. Got a lot to do today" with no suggestion of another day. I never replied after that and I haven't heard from her for almost 2 weeks now.

I'm hard on losses after spending on ladies without getting in their panties so I've been considering hitting her up for one last hail mary. What's your take?