Quote: (11-05-2014 08:33 PM)slats7 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:11 PM)Jack198 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:04 PM)slats7 Wrote:  

My 26-yo nephew graduated from U of Arizona law school last May. Moved back to Wisconsin and passed the bar on his first attempt. He is currently a waiter at my parents' country club. The saving grace is that his parents paid the freight, so no debt hanging over his head.

Didn't he hear the alarm bells three years ago when he applied?

he figured declining law school enrollment meant less competition when he got out.

Oh man.... I feel for him. The entire field has changed all the way around - they just flat out do not need as many lawyers as they did. Before technology caught up, a lot of big law firms were making big bank on outrageous charges to corporate clients who never read their bills. Since the housing crash, everybody started reading their bills. They got tired of paying some associate in the back room $400 per hour for what was essentially an information management task. Biglaw hiring is literally half of what it was in 2007; similar stories abound from the mid and small sized firms. This isn't a tale about a temporarily bad economy - there are permanent structural changes afoot.

So that, plus outsourcing to India, better coding, even Legalzoom - all of it is changing the landscape. Of course the schools have no interest in educating anybody about this new paradigm.

Law school now is for the people who go to Harvard, Yale or Stanford, or for the top 5% of every other school. Even then it's a gamble, unless you're also an engineer - then you can do patents. But the main portion of the student body have been relegated to sherpas (the bottom 90% of the average law school class). The mission of a law school sherpa is to pay the freight so the school stays afloat and the 5% can make it to the top. Not the school's problem how the kid handles his debt upon graduation.

Hope he isn't in too much debt.

Quote: (11-05-2014 07:54 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 07:52 PM)Old Fritz Wrote:  

I was told by a military recruiter that I would be better off in unconventional covert style operations. Anyone want to tell me what he meant by that?

Assassin-IA stuff, recon/sniper stuff

He meant he has a quota to fill and he'll sell you on whatever he's got in his queue.

Protip: Artillery and supply are not unconventional or covert.

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:20 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

When were you in? I believe they changed it to E 4. Marines I think might be different NOT sure.

I was in from '94 - '04; active duty then some guard time for the last couple of years. It used to be you be you had to be an E7 to get a housing allowance while single, then they lowered it to E6 around 2001; maybe they got better later.

We Army guys always got jealous of the Air Force - hotter chicks and better living conditions.

Quote: (11-05-2014 12:32 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

As a resident of Boston, I am surrounded by foolish millennials who continue to think that more student loans and a higher up degree are the path to financial success.

Can't find a job? Go to graduate school! That master's degree in public health, philosophy, law, and other fluff from a second or third tier university will get you a job!

How is it that a bunch of supposedly "highly" credentialed individuals didn't think that, "Oh golly gee lets go and do more of the same because i'm good at taking tests and school lets me delay the cold reality that I have no marketable skills beyond being a compliant test taker? Mommy, daddy, and my college career office said that if I get some even more expensive paper degrees i'll get a cushy white collar job!

Ever notice that these individuals tend to be of the progressive, multicultural variety? These people are convenient useful idiots for a financial system built on cheap oil.

These people have foolishly enslaved themselves to a puppet master that knows that personal loans are slavery.

The worst part is, these individuals are some of the most stuck up and entitled individuals you will ever meet. Not just the women, but the men as well.

"Respect me! I have a college degree!"

The car mechanic who is up to date on his loans in my opinion is the one whose voice should be heard at the voting booths.

The $95,000 indebted sociology major who has been in default for two years while working at Starbucks should be praying every day that they don't make debtors prison a thing again. He deserves no respect nor should his opinion have any sway in politics. If you can't make good decisions about your education, let alone finances, what makes us think he'll be able to vote accordingly?

TL;DR
Here's a grand solution, if you're in default for your government subsidized student loans you don't deserve the right to vote.

I see them all the time too, I refer to them as "educated idiots".

Quote: (11-05-2014 06:18 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

Kids are sleeping on the biggest, best-kept secret in the United States.

The fucking military and the Post-9/11 GI Bill.

Both my sons are in the air force for 4 years for this very damn reason. Shitloads of free money.

Higher education is a major financial investment. Unfortunately 90% of people who undertake don't actually treat it as such.





I would love to see some of these charts broken down by major.

Many in the younger generation are certainly entitled and have few if any real skills, but who is it that put them in this situation? Millennials have had a negligible impact on our societal or political structures. It's unfair to blame an entire generation for wanting things that previous generations have told them are what they need, from consumer products to a four year degree in liberal arts.

Too many children are raised today with technology in their hands from a very young age. These kids can scroll through youtube videos on an ipad from before the age of two but have far less experience with creative toys and social games than previous generations. That is fucking up our future. It's been shown that the best toys for childhood development are the simple ones where kids need to figure out by themselves how to have fun - things like legos, clay putty, or a ball. A touch screen device warps their brains at an age when such inputs have permanent detrimental effects.

Is it a child's fault that their parents have found it easier to buy them a kid's tablet which has been mass produced by slave labor in China and marketed heavily by huge corporations as a good thing for your kids? Or should we be looking at the societal and corporatist structures that brought this upon us?

Quote: (11-05-2014 10:02 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

I would love to see one of those charts broken down by major.

Me too. And as for lifetime earnings, those charts do nothing to demonstrate demographic factors. If you were a boomer in 1970 who just graduated college or got your PhD, that was quite a bit different than a millennial doing the same thing today - doubly so for one with the same flaky major a boomer might have gotten away with when the wind was at his back.

^You probably should've made that clearer. They are bullshit because a way higher percentage of young people today go to college. I'm willing to bet their is no substantive difference in real earnings between a useless major grad of a lower tier university today and somebody who only finished high school 50 years ago.

Student debt is growing pretty rapidly, John Oliver did a bit about it.






Part of me does wonder though - if you were a school, wouldn't you raise prices because students had the capacity to pay higher prices? On first glance, it does seems like a classic economic supply/demand situation.

I understand that public schools get money from state governments, but this is not as much as people think. I have seen the internal use only numbers for UCLA, and the government only gives enough to keep the lights on. I'll see if I can dig the real numbers out for you guys - I haven't seen the binder in a while.

Also, if there are a "lack" of jobs, students should major in something productive. Anyone who thinks African Studies or Sociology will lead to a job is shitting themselves. At school, these were majors that failing students in STEM/Accounting/Econ were "flushed" into due to GPA/impacted curriculum issues. Anyone going to a T2 or T3 lawschool also runs the risk of graduating into a market saturated with degrees and quite honestly did not do their due dilligance if they thought it could never happen. The bell curve is a powerful thing - even if you have access to college, you may get "flushed" into a useless major.

Part of me cries on the inside when I hear that people are going to grad schools for things like social work or jobs that will pay 50K/year starting. The rest of me groans when they go straight from undergrad to graduate school. I salute anyone who wants to be a doctor - you could potentially borrow 8 years straight, and then have to work the shittiest shifts for three years before becoming certified. Eleven years of wages flushed down the drain. I could work eleven years in public accounting and knock on the door for partner.

If I could find a job out of college, I expect everyone else to be able to. No sympathy for those who can't or made a stupid life decision that hinder their prospects (knocked up HS girlfriend, etc).

...but we're all preaching to the RVF choir right?

Quote: (11-05-2014 09:59 PM)rpg Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 06:18 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

Kids are sleeping on the biggest, best-kept secret in the United States.

The fucking military and the Post-9/11 GI Bill.

Both my sons are in the air force for 4 years for this very damn reason. Shitloads of free money.

I just finished serving 5 yrs in the Army.

There are hefty benefits for veterans. But serving sucks most of the time. Everything good in life is earned. Tip: You only have to do 3 years of active duty to get 100% of the GI Bill, so for christsakes don't sign a 5 or 6 year contract.

Also, from my experience serving on two joint-service posts:

Air Force > Navy > Army > Marines

Quote: (11-05-2014 10:05 PM)Jack198 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 10:02 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

I would love to see one of those charts broken down by major.

Me too. And as for lifetime earnings, those charts do nothing to demonstrate demographic factors. If you were a boomer in 1970 who just graduated college or got your PhD, that was quite a bit different than a millennial doing the same thing today - doubly so for one with the same flaky major a boomer might have gotten away with when the wind was at his back.

Not sure if you guys follow zerohedge, I feel like they cover this stuff all the time...

While it is not exactly what you asked for... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-04...ge-degrees

Yeah, zerohedge is pretty good.

Quote: (11-05-2014 09:24 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:33 PM)slats7 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:11 PM)Jack198 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:04 PM)slats7 Wrote:  

My 26-yo nephew graduated from U of Arizona law school last May. Moved back to Wisconsin and passed the bar on his first attempt. He is currently a waiter at my parents' country club. The saving grace is that his parents paid the freight, so no debt hanging over his head.

Didn't he hear the alarm bells three years ago when he applied?

he figured declining law school enrollment meant less competition when he got out.

He's not necessarily screwed, but if he doesn't get some kind of lawyer job pretty soon, that gap in his resume could make it extremely difficult for him. For reasons that I don't post about or talk about, I didn't work for over a year after I graduated from law school. I was eventually able to get a job, which I had for five years. I left that job with over $250, 000 in debt and all kinds of other problems which that job either directly or indirectly caused me. Through some contacts which I made at that job, hard work, and some strokes of good luck, I was able to turn everything around surprisingly fast. If I had gone much longer without getting a job, I think many prospective employers would have been scared away by the gap in my resume. You nephew's job at the country club should put him in contact with some pretty powerful people, both in the the gal community and outside of it. There are worse things he could be doing, but if too much time passes, things will be extremely difficult.

The problem is that he's only interested in the prosecutorial end of the business, meaning assistant DA/city attorney jobs, which limits his prospects even further. He never interned for a private firm, and is put off by the idea of 80 hour work weeks that chew up new associates. And with no summer internship under his belt, his prospects were dim to begin with. While visiting with him a few weeks ago, he received a polite rejection email informing him that he lost out to a former defense attorney "with over 20 years' experience." Why someone in his late 40's is applying for a $49K entry-level prosecutor job is anyone's guess, but this is what he's up against.

Quote: (11-05-2014 02:55 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 01:19 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

Posted this thread because of the BS i see on my facebook feed from so called "smart" people complaining about the election. I know these people have been unable to pay down their loans.

I doubt there will be a bail out for student loans. Where is all of that money going to come from? The Fed and the government used all of their magic bullets in the last recession.

Actually I was reading an article. There will never be a bailout for 2 reasons:

1. They aren't that important. Banks were.

2. There is no bubble. Never was any. 2008-2009 did see an increase in defaults but the years after actually had an increased payment. Unless these guys refuse to work and become homeless, they have to pay back debt to the gov't. Grnishment isn't going anywhere.

3. The so called 1 trillion dollar debt isn't something to be scary. Nor will it be when it hits 1.5 billion. No more than it was when it was 750billion. The average debt is 29k, a reasonable amount that most students can pay back. The majority don't fit your stereotype (english majors with 120k debt lol)

4. It isn't a bubble. Degrees haven't loss value. In today's world you practically need one so they mostly pay off in the long term. Graduates still make more over a life time.


Honestly the few who have created a so called bubble for themselves are a minority and will have to deal with it but I am certain even they will make more in their lifetime than they paid for their education. So technically it isn't a bubble.

Quote:Quote:

Here's a grand solution, if you're in default for your government subsidized student loans you don't deserve the right to vote.

Fuck that..send them to the army. They thought they were too good to join up for 3 years and come out with a BA degree still having the GI bill to go to graduate school.
As a generation x'er...we had it the worst.

Came on when unions were dying but no computer/online type of work business.

1st latchkey kids in a time when it was a stigma and we weren't considered cool if we had to go on pills for ADD,etc.

We also had to work while in school to help pay the bills and we weren't allowed to use calculators when we took exams. We are the last generation that probably knows arithmetic lol.

Couldn't play with our smartphone/laptop during our boring classes that mostly had no AC.

Girls were afraid to fuck because of Aids but we grew up right after the era of free love/sex.

When we needed to make a phone call we had to walk half a mile to find a working payphone that didn't have mustard on it.

Betamax and VHS..need a say more?

Our computer games consisted of a triangle and a square but we had to imagine that they were people, animals,etc.

On our tv shows NO ONE EVER DIED OR IT WAS RARE. I counted 1 dead taxi driver killed on an episode of the 3rd season of the A team. But every week guys would crawl out of crashed exploding helicopters.

Our music was on cassettes that always had the magnetic strip rip apart.

If you weren't a jock you had to be a punk rocker. If not you were a nerd regardless of your abilities and attitude. Today pc has made everyone get along.

denim skirts were a girls idea of dressing up lol.

Someone had to hold the rabbit ears to watch tv.


Most students would have little or no debt if they went to public college and worked part/full time during.

Bringing back memories here. :-)

A couple things are missing from this debate:

1. Companies are no longer willing to eat the costs of training their employees, a necessity practiced by every other generation of bosses. Boomers were able to forego college and head directly into the workplace - or get a career-track job immediately upon graduating - because their employers trained them for the jobs needed. Now in charge, those Boomers suddenly panic at the hit to the bottom line of extending the same handup to their children. Entry-level hiring is a joke, and most jobs require unpaid internships - unheard of in previous years.

2. 99% of people can't "be the 1%," and the idea that hustling and intelligence are sufficient to get you there is a laughable myth.

Quote: (11-05-2014 10:31 PM)cool Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 09:59 PM)rpg Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 06:18 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

Kids are sleeping on the biggest, best-kept secret in the United States.

The fucking military and the Post-9/11 GI Bill.

Both my sons are in the air force for 4 years for this very damn reason. Shitloads of free money.

I just finished serving 5 yrs in the Army.

There are hefty benefits for veterans. But serving sucks most of the time. Everything good in life is earned. Tip: You only have to do 3 years of active duty to get 100% of the GI Bill, so for christsakes don't sign a 5 or 6 year contract.

Also, from my experience serving on two joint-service posts:

Air Force > Navy > Army > Marines

What was your job in the Army?

The stories I could tell about my friends and I making VA bank after separating and simply going to college full time or doing OJT in full time jobs, are borderline obscene.

Quote: (11-05-2014 10:47 PM)slats7 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 09:24 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:33 PM)slats7 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:11 PM)Jack198 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 08:04 PM)slats7 Wrote:  

My 26-yo nephew graduated from U of Arizona law school last May. Moved back to Wisconsin and passed the bar on his first attempt. He is currently a waiter at my parents' country club. The saving grace is that his parents paid the freight, so no debt hanging over his head.

Didn't he hear the alarm bells three years ago when he applied?

he figured declining law school enrollment meant less competition when he got out.

He's not necessarily screwed, but if he doesn't get some kind of lawyer job pretty soon, that gap in his resume could make it extremely difficult for him. For reasons that I don't post about or talk about, I didn't work for over a year after I graduated from law school. I was eventually able to get a job, which I had for five years. I left that job with over $250, 000 in debt and all kinds of other problems which that job either directly or indirectly caused me. Through some contacts which I made at that job, hard work, and some strokes of good luck, I was able to turn everything around surprisingly fast. If I had gone much longer without getting a job, I think many prospective employers would have been scared away by the gap in my resume. You nephew's job at the country club should put him in contact with some pretty powerful people, both in the the gal community and outside of it. There are worse things he could be doing, but if too much time passes, things will be extremely difficult.

The problem is that he's only interested in the prosecutorial end of the business, meaning assistant DA/city attorney jobs, which limits his prospects even further. He never interned for a private firm, and is put off by the idea of 80 hour work weeks that chew up new associates. And with no summer internship under his belt, his prospects were dim to begin with. While visiting with him a few weeks ago, he received a polite rejection email informing him that he lost out to a former defense attorney "with over 20 years' experience." Why someone in his late 40's is applying for a $49K entry-level prosecutor job is anyone's guess, but this is what he's up against.

Usually the way to get your foot in the door for a prosecutor job is to clerk for a judge. Most present and former prosecutors I know spent a year clerking right after law school. Again, the gap in the resume could make getting a clerkship difficult. There are benefits to working as a prosecutor. Generally at 4:30 P.M. (sometimes earlier) Monday to Friday you get off work and rarely have to field phone calls. Meanwhile, I'm on call twenty-four hours a day 365 days a year. People call me at 3:00 A.M., 5:00 A.M., on Christmas, and when I'm in bed with a tapatia in Playa del Carmen. I always answer. Being a prosecutor is not for everyone and I doubt I'd last very long if I chose to take that route. I honestly believe that for future financial success, it makes more sense to be a public defender than a prosecutor. The reason why is that if you spend years representing an extremely high volume of criminal clients as a public defender, you will make some serious contacts in the community and a fair amount of your clients will seek your services when you go into private practice.

Being in my final year of high school, I can't convey the amount of pity I feel for my peers. So many lack direction, and I can't blame them. Since such a young age, we're pressured to attend college, no matter the major, no matter the cost, it's become a societal normality that's so far engrained, you're ridiculed if you dare question it. Majority of my class plans to attend a university, and half of them are attending against their will.

After reading the opinions of many on the forum and in articles, I've decided that college isn't worth the issues that come with it, especially since I lack the amounts demanded for their ludicrous tuition fees. I try to convince my classmates of the same, but they're far too misguided to plan a life that would stray from what's expected; it's a wretched system.

Quote: (11-05-2014 10:58 PM)lurker Wrote:  

2. 99% of people can't "be the 1%," and the idea that hustling and intelligence are sufficient to get you there is a laughable myth.

Hustling is the only way to get there. The reason why 99% of people don't get there? Because they don't work in the right direction.

Working for someone else, no matter how hard you work will not get you there.

Working towards your own dreams and aspirations just might get you there however.

Quote: (11-05-2014 11:28 PM)Impulse Wrote:  

Being in my final year of high school, I can't convey the amount of pity I feel for my peers. So many lack direction, and I can't blame them. Since such a young age, we're pressured to attend college, no matter the major, no matter the cost, it's become a societal normality that's so far engrained, you're ridiculed if you dare question it. Majority of my class plans to attend a university, and half of them are attending against their will.

After reading the opinions of many on the forum and in articles, I've decided that college isn't worth the issues that come with it, especially since I lack the amounts demanded for their ludicrous tuition fees. I try to convince my classmates of the same, but they're far too misguided to plan a life that would stray from what's expected; it's a wretched system.

People don't understand that you can make money work for you instead of working for your money. In the early years, you have to work your ass off, but if you live like other people won't, you will be able to live like others cannot.

Quote: (11-05-2014 01:49 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

There are jobs out there, but no one wants to be a car mechanic, oil sands worker, or any other blue collar trade.

You can throw septic tank service in there as well.

Regardless, the guy that owns the company probably wont be diving in your tank. He probably could and would but doesn't have to.

He doesn't have to...anymore. There is a good chance he learned the business by doing it.

I think that in past years a group of people this oppressed and manipulated to this extent would have risen up against the governing power.

But there are so many social constructs in place that keep revolution from happening.

--feminism
--blue pill upbringing and emasculation
--social issues creating competition and conflict amongst citizens

The list goes on but I always think, the number one influence of a politian isn't helping others (it may start out like that) it's staying in power

Quote: (11-05-2014 11:31 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 10:58 PM)lurker Wrote:  

2. 99% of people can't "be the 1%," and the idea that hustling and intelligence are sufficient to get you there is a laughable myth.

Hustling is the only way to get there. The reason why 99% of people don't get there? Because they don't work in the right direction.

Working for someone else, no matter how hard you work will not get you there.

I respectfully disagree with this, although it is generally much more difficult to have extreme success when you work for someone else, then when you are on your own. I grew up literally feet from a guy who I see on T.V. every single day. Every American guy on here knows the guy who I am talking about is and probably many of the international guys also do. He has always worked for someone else and probably always will. An even better example is a guy who, although not a blood relative, he and I were basically raised as brothers. This guy is insanely wealthy and has always worked for someone else. He's actually a few months younger than me, so he has decades of success ahead of him. All that being said, I much prefer working for myself to working for someone else.

Quote: (11-05-2014 10:58 PM)lurker Wrote:  

A couple things are missing from this debate:

1. Companies are no longer willing to eat the costs of training their employees, a necessity practiced by every other generation of bosses. Boomers were able to forego college and head directly into the workplace - or get a career-track job immediately upon graduating - because their employers trained them for the jobs needed. Now in charge, those Boomers suddenly panic at the hit to the bottom line of extending the same handup to their children. Entry-level hiring is a joke, and most jobs require unpaid internships - unheard of in previous years.

2. 99% of people can't "be the 1%," and the idea that hustling and intelligence are sufficient to get you there is a laughable myth.

Good point. And in a lot of trade gigs, the light work that used to be done by apprentices is now being done by the "diversity hire" women that they needed to qualify for gov't contracts.