I live just outside of Boston and see everything the OP talks about.

Thank God I'm moving to Vegas in four weeks.

Quote: (11-05-2014 01:19 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

I'm going to advocate for the other side of the coin here. It's a side that needs to be heard.

The reason why young millenials are underemployed and in debt is this: there are no fucking jobs.

The "economy" is a rigged game where the rich plutocrats hold all the cards and 95% of the country's wealth is in the hands of the top 1%. It's a recipie for social stagnation, severe inequality, seething social problems, and impending crisis.

Our society now resembles a Third World type of stratification, with the minorities and poor stuck at the bottom in miserable ghettoes or in trailer park squalor. The middle class has been destroyed.

And yet the US continues to vote for the same people, over and over again. I've given up looking for political solutions. The only real revolutions are those of the individual mind and spirit.

Are there a lot of entitled neckbeards and manginas with sociology degrees? Of course. But the major culprits here are the thieves at the top of the pile in the US who have stolen the wealth and opportunities of the country for themselves. They've also dismantled the manufacturing base of the country. They're the ones who continue to look the other way regarding illegal immigration so that they can take advantage of slave labor.

Millenials got screwed, along with all the rest of us. I feel bad for them. They were sold out, betrayed, and ripped off by a rigged game controlled by our political and economic thieves.

I hope they wake up and focus their rage where it properly belongs.

And when that happens, it will be glorious.

I agree with most of what you said but us gener X had the same shit. Even worst..we didn't have the alternative media to tell us the truth. We all had to look for jobs and ended up not getting in the fields we wanted. We were told one thing and reality was different. Biggest difference..we didn't have media to bitch to and make a social movement.

One of the biggest criminals here for both our generations..public guidance counselors. They all promote degrees instead of valuable skills. Plenty of guys would have done better in the real life trades.
But again...Millennial had some access to mass media to educate themselves.

We had no alternative sources. The internet when I came of age was basically just PARTY rooms lol. We had the old fashion books that were publish t present the mainstream agenda.

Quote:Quote:

There's also the issue of millenials being either lied to or given terribly outdated information by older people they trusted.

I can't remember how many times I heard 'if you get a college degree you can get all sorts of jobs.'

Probably true in the 60s, 70s, and 80s when college degrees were more rare and impressive.

A lot of older folks are clueless when it comes to the job market, dating, etc. Times have changed.

True but they , as I said, have sources to find out the truth.

It was generation x that was the 1st generation to deal with this NEW reality on the ground. We were the ones that had a truly liberated feminist cult of co workers/dates to deal with. It is always worst to be the 1st to have to deal with a new mentality.

^ blacknwhitespade most graduate school chicks are not hot.

I'd go back for a double major at non-commuter state school.

Hot chicks for the most part are just hot enough to stsy thin and make it into a tier 2 school. Grad school is off they radar...

Hot girls go to State Universities. Relatively affordable, easy to get into, not all-too demanding, have multiple campuses, hugely populated with "fun" college-life experience, and wide variety of courses (including the ever-popular liberal arts/humanities courses).

Millennials were sold the higher-education white-collar life path in a time when it was not longer very lucrative. That's all. Even people who get out of school with marketable degrees (STEM, law, finance, etc.) find that the job market can be tough as there are millions of other kids in there early 20's in the same boat.

To the same token, we live in a generation of spoiled fucks who were brought up to believe they are special snowflakes who are entitled to shit. We can be whatever we want to be and do whatever we want to do and everything is setup for us to "win."

If the government stayed out of the student loan business than these millenials never would have had the opportunity to get a worthless degree and submit themselves to a life of indentured servitude to the state. Just like when the mortgage brokers were originating the teaser rates and subprime mortgages, they never would have had the opportunity to do so if the Fed didn't have interest rates at 1%. Both were just reactionary to a corrupt government addicted to debt and consumption. As Peter Schiff said, this next bubble is too big to pop.

^ You have to take the loans yourself it's not like they force you.

How do I get one? Can I use the money to flip houses?

Quote: (11-05-2014 03:51 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

^ blacknwhitespade most graduate school chicks are not hot.

I'd go back for a double major at non-commuter state school.

Hot chicks for the most part are just hot enough to stsy thin and make it into a tier 2 school. Grad school is off they radar...

I was only joking, but yeah, non-commuter, 2nd/3rd tier state undergrad schools in small towns are the cream of the crop. Think UC-Santa Barbara, UW-LaCross, etc. That's where I really screwed up; I went to an urban commuter, tech-leaning state school in the city and studied in a 99% male dominated field. FML, lol

Quote: (11-05-2014 04:28 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

^ You have to take the loans yourself it's not like they force you.

How do I get one? Can I use the money to flip houses?

Of course they don't force you, but the government should not have guaranteed any student loans (FFEL), just as the GSE's should not have guaranteed mortgages. If all loans were done privately, there would be less of a moral hazard regarding the ability to repay the loan back. Hence, less massive loans for liberal arts degrees knowing they are not going to be backed by the federal government.

I want to warn you guys that it's getting worse. I'm not even put of school yet, but I already have 2 jobs and study a lot as well. Then in my hour or so of free time every day I log on to twitter and see women my age tweeting or retweeting shit like "All I want is a tall, muscly boyfriend, money to travel the world and an easy well paying job. Is that too much to ask for?"

Yes. It fucking is too much to ask for. I'm slaving my ass away already so that in 10 years you can live off my taxes.

Quote: (11-05-2014 01:19 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

I'm going to advocate for the other side of the coin here. It's a side that needs to be heard.

The reason why young millenials are underemployed and in debt is this: there are no fucking jobs.

Millenials got screwed, along with all the rest of us. I feel bad for them. They were sold out, betrayed, and ripped off by a rigged game controlled by our political and economic thieves.

I hope they wake up and focus their rage where it properly belongs.

And when that happens, it will be glorious.

There are no jobs for people with no marketable skills (education in and of itself is not a marketable skill). But even so, yes, the job situation is still not pretty even for those with marketable skills. Instead of making things easier for jobs to flourish, the past decades have increasingly seen changes whih make doing business in the US unattractive while the growth of government proceeds virtually unabated. But hey, free health care, right?

The Millenials drank their own kool aid, as did their Boomer parents. Not even ten years ago you couldn't convince a single one of them about what was happening in the legal field and that law school was an increasingly bad bet. Yet they marched right into the fire and became debt donkeys who can't get hired. But hey, their parents are proud of their little ones with fancy degrees.

As for redirecting their rage, don't count on it. The Millenials still blame "the establishment" (whatever the left tells them that means) while sympathizing with the likes of the Soros-funded OWS fake protests. They also expect - hell, they demand - a bailout for their stupid choices and think politicians will oblige. I've got no sympathy for any of them - they're like battered wives returning to their abusers at this point.

If they should be upset with anyone, it's their fellow leftists in the educational system and willing conspirators in Congress pushing to "make college more affordable" with cheap easy money, which only served to make tuition prices skyrocket. And yet somehow they carp about "corporations" keeping them down, as if nonprofit status is enough to absolve a corporation (such as a school) from any responsibility. Perfectly useful idiots, the vast majority of them.

Quote: (11-05-2014 04:39 PM)Felix46 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 04:28 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

^ You have to take the loans yourself it's not like they force you.

How do I get one? Can I use the money to flip houses?

Of course they don't force you, but the government should not have guaranteed any student loans (FFEL), just as the GSE's should not have guaranteed mortgages. If all loans were done privately, there would be less of a moral hazard regarding the ability to repay the loan back. Hence, less massive loans for liberal arts degrees knowing they are not going to be backed by the federal government.

I didn't understand that.

Student loans cover living expenses or just tuition? I really don't see the point in them at all but my sister has a masters or something and never had any loans. Who told all these kids to take loans? Is it an easy way out of having to work for 4 years?

Quote: (11-05-2014 02:21 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

There's also the issue of millenials being either lied to or given terribly outdated information by older people they trusted.

I can't remember how many times I heard 'if you get a college degree you can get all sorts of jobs.'

Probably true in the 60s, 70s, and 80s when college degrees were more rare and impressive.

A lot of older folks are clueless when it comes to the job market, dating, etc. Times have changed.

Of course when many of the millenials find this out they just double down and keep going for more degrees rather than cutting their losses and learning a skill.

This is EXTREMELY true for current law graduates getting advice from Boomers. The boomers are giving advice that was probably pretty good back in 1982 but they've no idea of the current marketplace nor do they fathom the levels of debt involved compared to when they attended school.

Also, more generally speaking, a lot of companies understand the idea of agile hiring practices - got to be lean and nimble, etc. So lots of jobs (in the IT sector, for example) are contract based, things may not last more than a year or two before you're cut loose.

That's ok, move on to the next one, but when you go to the next interview you get the "Gee, you're kind of a job hopper, no?" from some boomer or near-boomer. Excuse me, but when companies promote the "lean and mean, gotta be nimble" line then look at you like you're disloyal for not spending twenty years at the same company, someone is not connected to reality.

The bubble will pop and the government will "bail us out" by printing money. This is called Inflation Tax. Since your money is worth less, you are essentially paying more taxes. As much as us redpillers want to become business owners or independent contractors, having to pay employee and employer taxes are a double toll. If you're in the U.S. your best bet is to live in state tax havens like Texas, Wyoming, Idaho.

In this discussion, time and time again I see the biggest culprits go unmentioned: the schools themselves.

There is NO reason why school tuitions are raising at the exponential rates they currently are. Once the government started guaranteeing student loans, the schools used it as an opportunity to write a blank check.

My graduating high school had a 100% attendance rate to college. ALL of us were convinced by our teachers, government, and parents, that college was the sure path to success. Trying to tell me we should have known better is bullshit. At 18 all you know is what other people have been telling you. This was also before widespread info became open on the internet. We got conned. I was lucky enough to wake up before going to law school and avoid 100K in extra debt.

But the real criminals here aren't the students, who were trying to do the right thing, nor was it necessarily the government, who wanted to provide people with an education.

The fact is, the schools went HOG WILD with the student loan money, wasting so much of it on bullshit.

- Huge salary increases, especially for admin positions (they don't even teach!)
- "Campus beautification," I remember my school spent 100K JUST on a bronze statue of the school's mascot.
- Luxury dorms
- Losing sport teams
- All you can eat dining halls making freshmen women gain the "Freshman 15"

Can someone please tell me how the schools are innocent in this? The schools should be forced to repay most of the money. Top admins at some of these schools should be fined and/or jailed. It is THAT bad. What are they wasting it on? God knows it's not the students, most professors are garbage and belong teaching in high school.





Blaming the students are quite literally blaming the victim. There is no reason why schools have been raising their prices so much in the past 20 years other than the fact they are taking advantage of the government and students who were fed lies about needing college to be successful in life.

Find out where the money was wasted at the schools, take it back, pay down student debts. Problem solved.

Quote: (11-05-2014 05:10 PM)thyalmightyrhino Wrote:  

The bubble will pop and the government will "bail us out" by printing money. This is called Inflation Tax. Since your money is worth less, you are essentially paying more taxes.

^Yes. They've been doing that ever since fiat money became a reality. People with government pensions thinking that they're protected because their pension is inflation indexed have already been getting screwed and it will only get worse. The inflation index is based on the government determining what the inflation rate is and what goods are considered in the basket when calculating inflation. Government has all the incentive in the world to keep the official rate artificially low since they're already running on empty as it is. Were they to pay increased adjustments to pensions, social security, etc. at actual inflation rates, those programs would have collapsed already.

And this doesn't even touch the various state and municipal retirement programs which are even more generous than the federal ones. They too will be looking for a handout since states can't print their own money.

Quote: (11-05-2014 05:22 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Blaming the students are quite literally blaming the victim.

Ten or more years ago, sure, you could say blaming the students is blaming the victim and you would be right. But anybody with a pulse who hasn't been paying attention and still becomes a debt donkey is suffering from severe special snowflake syndrome. Some people just cannot be convinced. The following article was from 2011 - things have only gotten worse; finally a few schools stand the chance of folding. The jig is up, but some people still will not listen.

So This Is Why People Keep Applying To Law School
By ELIE MYSTAL
"...Try telling a recent college grad to think critically before applying to law school. Just try to do it. It won’t be long before the young person you are trying to help gets inappropriately angry and shouts, “Well what AM I supposed to do, you fat f**k? Seriously oh wise internet blogger, what the hell am I supposed to do, work at Barnes & Noble? Oh wait, they’re not hiring, a$$hole.”

Yeah, recent college grads tend to act like going to law school (or some other professional school or post-graduate degree program) is their only option in a market that doesn’t have enough jobs. Citing the results of a recent poll taken by Twentysomething Inc., Time reports that 85% of 2011 college graduates are expected to move back in with their parents. (Gavel bang: BL1Y.)

Honestly guys, this is how riots start. Unemployed adults living in forced infancy without enough money to start a family of their own. That’s the tinder that has brought down pretty much every society ever.

The report reiterates what we already know: people are turning to professional school to wait out this terrible job market.

In the face of these numbers… well, I still think that people going to law school simply in response to a difficult job market are making a terrible and ruinous choice. Here’s why….


Look, I know it’s awful out there:

Times are undeniably tough. Reports have placed the unemployment rate for the under-25 group as high as 54%. Many of these unemployed graduates are choosing to go into higher education in an attempt to wait out the job market, while others are going anywhere — and doing anything — for work. Meanwhile, moving back home helps with expenses and paying off student loans.
The outlook isn’t sunshine and roses: Rick Raymond, of the College Parents of America, notes, “Graduates are not the first to be hired when the job markets begins to improve. We’re seeing shocking numbers of people with undergraduates degrees who can’t get work.”
You know what’s worse than walking around with a bunch of college debt and no job? Walking around with college debt and law school debt, when you are three years older and you still can’t find work.

I mean, I know we’re dealing with 22-year-olds — or maybe even teenagers — and I know kids have some problems acting with foresight. But having just spent four years for a degree that didn’t help you get a job, why would you throw away another three years? Doesn’t loading up on ever more expensive degrees without really examining the job market sound suspiciously like making the same mistake twice?

And that doesn’t even get us into the three years of lost opportunity cost. You could mow lawns for three and be in a better financial position than where most people are when they graduate from law school.

I’m not saying being a professional day laborer is better than being a lawyer (that’s a debate for another time), I’m just saying that you can do a lot of things for three years that don’t require you to borrow money.

If you want to wait out the terrible job market, consider waiting. Getting additional education isn’t waiting, it’s doubling down on the bet that “education” is the key to professional success.

If you bust out on the bet, you’re probably going to end up buying street supplies at the pitchfork-and-torches shop — the store that will undoubtedly be owned by a very wealthy guy who started his own business instead of spending a bunch of money and time on professional school.

Survey: 85% of New College Grads Move Back in with Mom and Dad [Time via Twitter / BL1Y]

What I will state is for the UK and doesn't include the soft subjects of psychology, womens studies etc.

Granted the simplicity of supply and demand, there will always be those who are left out and may need to find another path. What isn't right is the very real fact of a good chunk of graduates in good degrees, such as a specialism being given a raw deal.

Supply and demand relies on a good economy providing more opportunities, more tax breaks, less bullshit from the treasury. It also relies on the older generations moving on and out of positions by either obtaining a higher position or retiring.

A good economy will provide benefits for expanding your business because your cash flow is higher and therefore you'll get someone else in on a starter position or higher.

The Reality?

Most employers now are cherry-picking talent. You might think; "so? They always do it!" I don't know when it was fashionable for a graduate to go into a position with a company after they have obtained a good degree and two-three years post graduate experience and work for less than they would normally get in the position they gained those two or more years experience in.

There are so many graduate surveying positions demanding two years post grad experience, not including a sandwich placement year and a 2:1 above with all other things attached.

All for an amazing.....£21,500 salary.

What the fuck is this?

For anyone not in the know, this salary is the starter salary for a graduate who is fresh out of bootcamp. Not someone with 2 years into their career and coming to that much sought after Chartered status. Two years for APC allows you to go for chartered status in the UK as a surveyor.

Chartered surveyors can earn at least 30k outside of London. With experience you're looking at 40-50k + benefits.

They're taking the piss. Cherry picking and mooching off of other peoples training programmes. It is fashionable for people to steal talent that is ready-made and isn't costing them any more than what it says on the contract.

It is really annoying seeing this happen to myself and others but what can you do? Employers whine about how nobody can fill vacancies and we moan about how they're asking for too much.

I don't think there has been a point in history where employer's have had it so good in hiring workers from a highly skilled/talented workforce. It is ridiculous.

Quote: (11-05-2014 05:22 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

In this discussion, time and time again I see the biggest culprits go unmentioned: the schools themselves.

Although the schools share some of the blame, ultimately, I'd point my finger at the banks. It's the same politically protected villains who extracted middle class wealth through easy home loans just a few years ago. Student loans are just the latest wealth extraction scam.

Quote: (11-05-2014 03:29 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Another point many here forget...feminism. Once women started working in = occupations and numbers in the 70's and 80's(late baby boomers /early X'ers) it was ALL over.

More supply in the workforce means we had to compete more and salaries go down. It also caused the destruction the labor unions since an increasing supply of workers came who weren't in unions..women.

They did more to deteriorate our standard of living than hiring immigrants did. Since women entered the workforce... real income has decreased.

Not to mention they swamped all the universities, further pushing down the value of a bachelor's degree. Today's bachelor's degree is your grandfather's high school diploma, except it cost 5000% more.

I think a lot of society's woes could be fixed by having women go back to their natural workplace - the home.

The schools, the government and the banks are all complicit. Even the students bear some culpability, although to a lesser degree. I think more sympathy should be extended to millennials who graduated or started school before 2008 when the economy imploded and never truly recovered. Anyone wandering aimlessly into college at this point without a clear plan in mind is totally negligent, though, and much more deserving of their share of the blame. If you graduated high school in the early or mid 2000's though, when the economy was breezing along and the effects of the housing bubble were being felt, it was very easy to assume that student loan debt was not a big deal.

I would never advise a young kid to go to college at this point, unless he was fully committed to studying engineering of some type. And even then only if he can do so with taking on no more than 20k of debt. The jobs situation is only going to get worse over the next few decades. We are going to see increasing automation and I predict the implosion of the obscenely bloated healthcare system, which is going to put millions of healthcare workers out of a job. The only guarantee for having a job with a decent wage in 20 years is having advanced technical/trade skills that cannot be outsourced or done by a robot or a low wage laborer.

Quote: (11-05-2014 05:57 PM)ChrisPitts Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 03:29 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Another point many here forget...feminism. Once women started working in = occupations and numbers in the 70's and 80's(late baby boomers /early X'ers) it was ALL over.

More supply in the workforce means we had to compete more and salaries go down. It also caused the destruction the labor unions since an increasing supply of workers came who weren't in unions..women.

They did more to deteriorate our standard of living than hiring immigrants did. Since women entered the workforce... real income has decreased.

Not to mention they swamped all the universities, further pushing down the value of a bachelor's degree. Today's bachelor's degree is your grandfather's high school diploma, except it cost 5000% more.

I think a lot of society's woes could be fixed by having women go back to their natural workplace - the home.

I knew a woman in her late sixties a few years back who told me when her parents were putting her through school in the late 1960s, all their friends were bewildered and thought it was a total waste of money, saying "She's just gonna get married and never use any of that education."

I remember her being so repulsed at that line of thinking, shaking her head in disgust as she described the attitude of the day. I didn't think much of it - guess it didn't make sense to me either right then, but as time went by, I realized they had a point - a damned good one that's even more relevant now.

When considering the staggering cost of education, any young man looking to marry his college sweetheart had better consider what kind of loans she brings to the party as they will undoubtedly fall on his shoulders at some point, perhaps immediately; perhaps after she pops out the first kid and drops out of the work force for a bit - assuming she could ever get a job with that degree in underwater basket weaving.

The more society makes things complicated, the more the simple people from yesteryear seem to have had it right.

Quote: (11-05-2014 02:14 PM)ryanf Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 01:10 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 01:08 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

This will be the next bubble, bailout or whatever you want to call it. I am rushing to pay off my mortgage before it hits.

What is your reason to pay off your mortgage before this hits? Fear the bank might try to pull your loan out from under you if things get bad enough?

Or maybe you have a ARM loan?

Protip: read almost any load contract you enter into. Cars, houses, etc. Almost every one has a clause that the financing company can recall the loan at any time, and force you to pay the balance immediately (with an adjustment for early payment and interest, etc). It's usually not something you hear about, but it's a part of a significant amount of loan contracts. Scary.

Don't have debt.

1. Don't have debt.
2. Bet serious money on Mayweather.
3. Bet serious money on the under rounds when Golovkin fights.

These are three keys to success, which I have told at least a thousand people about. I'm pretty sure not one person listened to me and went right off and bought something they didn't need with a credit card.

Kids are sleeping on the biggest, best-kept secret in the United States.

The fucking military and the Post-9/11 GI Bill.

Quote: (11-05-2014 04:57 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 04:39 PM)Felix46 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-05-2014 04:28 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

^ You have to take the loans yourself it's not like they force you.

How do I get one? Can I use the money to flip houses?

Of course they don't force you, but the government should not have guaranteed any student loans (FFEL), just as the GSE's should not have guaranteed mortgages. If all loans were done privately, there would be less of a moral hazard regarding the ability to repay the loan back. Hence, less massive loans for liberal arts degrees knowing they are not going to be backed by the federal government.

I didn't understand that.

Student loans cover living expenses or just tuition? I really don't see the point in them at all but my sister has a masters or something and never had any loans. Who told all these kids to take loans? Is it an easy way out of having to work for 4 years?

For more qualified students, you can get eligible expenses. As Samseau explained, the school system heavily pushes for everyone to go to college, almost as if it's one's inalienable right. The government got involved, guaranteed student loans, and as a result of this artificial increase in demand for going to college, the colleges kept raising tuition and consequently salaries for professors, deans, etc have gone through the roof. Tuition dollars are being spent on state of the art dorms, buildings, surrounding hotels, fitness centers, etc. rather than to improve the quality of education. Rather than a place where one learns valuable lifelong skills, American universities are nothing more than a 4 year party at a resort in disguise, giving each student a worthless piece of paper and a dunce hat at its conclusion.

Truly one giant swindle.

Quote: (11-05-2014 05:22 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

There is NO reason why school tuitions are raising at the exponential rates they currently are. Once the government started guaranteeing student loans, the schools used it as an opportunity to write a blank check.



The fact is, the schools went HOG WILD with the student loan money, wasting so much of it on bullshit.

- Huge salary increases, especially for admin positions (they don't even teach!)
- "Campus beautification," I remember my school spent 100K JUST on a bronze statue of the school's mascot.
- Luxury dorms
- Losing sport teams
- All you can eat dining halls making freshmen women gain the "Freshman 15"

The reason many of these schools are raising their tuition costs is because they aren't getting their funds from the state anymore.

For example my school (The University of Illinois) had 70% of their budget covered in 1990 which came from the state. Now in 2014 only 24% of the budget comes from the state. So in order for the university to make up for it, they raise tuition costs up the ass.

Also, another way they make up for it is by heavily recruiting rich international students, specifically students from China who pay almost double the tuition costs than a local student. Schools find it beneficial recruiting students from China and India who have a population of over 3 billion combined. Students from China and India make up almost 40% of our student body and many people on campus are complaining that the school is giving preferential treatment to International students than to local students who are generally the ones struggling to get by. 70% of U of I students are on some kind of financial aid/student loan program or on scholarships and almost all of them are domestic students. The average Chinese student in my college is richer compared to the American students and are the elite from China or India. Most local students are Middle-class to lower middle class.

And I agree about useless spending and insane costs, especially the damn dinning halls. Every student is required their Freshman year to live in the dorms (Freshman dorms are the most expensive on purpose) and to have a meal plan. Their is no way around it. So you essentially have to take out a loan to not only pay for tuition but for the dorms and meal plan.

The debt being piled on is just out of control.