Quote: (12-22-2013 05:15 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Yeah you're right and I agree that to be a good fighter you need stand-up and ground skills, but in reality I'd say 90% of fights start standing, unless you're fighting some guy who wrestled in high school or college, or a BJJ guy.

All grapplers say that all fights go to the ground and a lot of them do, but I have seen plenty of street fights that never went to the ground because either one guy got knocked out, the fight got broken up, or neither guy(s) had any ground fighting skills and basically took it back to the feet.

If you are a BJJ guy with no stand up I feel like you really got to be the aggressor and go for a take down and get the fight on the ground ASAP. Plus yeah fighting more than one guy at once will be tough no matter what, but two on one isn't that unlikely of a scenario, and unless you are a sick brown/black belt, your chances of submitting two guys quickly are pretty low. But, hey this is just my opinion, Rio you seem like the resident MMA expert, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

I agree, you have to take the guy down. If it's a 1 on 1 fight I'd feel totally comfortable against the majority of people even if they outweighed me because of my BJJ.

With that said, you have to learn some type of standup IMO because there are a lot of situations where you just don't want to go to the ground. If you have strong striking, you'd kill a regular guy standing up.

The problem with BJJ is this. Once you get to like mid-blue and above a lot of the things you learn are counters to other sportive moves which you would never see in a real fight. If it's a real fight do you need to know about de la riva, x-guard, 50/50, or spider guard? No. I remember seeing this guy try x-guard in an MMA match and he rightfully got his face smashed in.

With that said, you can ALWAYS get better at a technique and move, but in a real confrontation do you really need to know the 3rd move in a sequence? Probably not cause a regular person isn't going to counter you, and if he does counter it won't be in the same way as a trained BJJ guy. It's really the basics that need to be mastered and are important.

A forum member(I think Wutang) recommended the Gracie Combative DVD set. It's pretty solid and shows all the basic moves in terms of a real fight. IMO opinion these are the most important moves that should be mastered.

A drunk is easy to beat, and that's who you're fighting most of the time. If you have technique it should even the odds against a bigger opponent. If the guy outweighs you by a significant amount, your technique can only compensate for so much.

The reason lightweights rarely knock each other out is because they just don't have the horsepower. I big guy who's untrained will still hit harder simply because he weighs more.

Untrained fighters will never tuck their chin, and will even raise their chin while they throw telegraphed haymakers. Be aware that most guys are right handed and that's the pinch you should be looking out for. I can tell by the way someone walks if they've had training. They're generally fitter and their shoulders are looser.

Look at his ears. Which one has cauliflower. Depending on if it's just one, or one is much worse than the other, you know which side he will shoot on.

If they are both pretty equally scarred, he may just be a BJJ guy.

If he has the loose shoulders, cauliflower ear, and is fit. Don't fuck with him.

Last but not least, don't be drunk. Be buzzed.

You guys go on and fight all you want. I'll be in the bar pulling ass.

Don't think because you're on crutches that no one is gonna punch that yellow fro

Quote: (12-22-2013 06:28 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

You guys go on and fight all you want. I'll be in the bar pulling ass.

^This. I have a buddy who lives and breathes MMA. In two days, back to back, he lost one of his front teeth and dislocated his right shoulder. He seemed almost happy about it, a badge of honor or something. What the hell is fun about that? I'm too damn pretty to do that shit.

Quote: (12-22-2013 06:36 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Don't think because you're on crutches that no one is gonna punch that yellow fro

Chuck Norris sends the Golden Fleece Fro a 'get well soon' card when I get it cut.

Edmund I got into a fight with a wrestler in high school. He probably had at least 70 pounds on me. We threw a few punches then he threw me on the ground and attempted to hit me with his knee or something. His leg was raised so I started punching his balls over and over lol. Honor is out the window unless you're in a ring, especially if you're a lot bigger than me.

What I think about sometimes is where is the 80/20 in MMA?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking where to find the shortcuts that will allow you to match up with a pro fighter who trains 6 days a week, as that's obviously ludicrous.

But sometimes I wonder how much sense it makes to spend your whole life trying to master fighting. The reality is that most people are never going to need their MMA skills in a real situation. They may need them a little bit, but they probably will never go all out even if someone comes at them, and people who do end up using them will use them very rarely.

On top of that, going hard in practice all the time definitely leads to ocasisional injuries (so it especially seems with bjj) and can be hard on your body.

Sure, MMA is a very useful skillset to have. I'm a big believer in cultivating the ability to defend your personal safety and honor and that of the people you care about. And of course the skills give you that confidence in yourself and at least some regular training is great for keeping your mind and body in shape. The constant competition can probably even keep your hormones roaring strong.

But unless it's really a passion of yours in life, how much time and effort should the average guy put into it? I think every guy should know how to fight and every guy needs a regimen to stay in shape, so training in some MMA makes sense. For the most part, it seems like someone who knows a little bit of boxing, knows a little bit of ground game, and is good physical shape can manhandle most people who don't know anything at all (which is a lot of guys).

I'm certainly not any kind of authority on the matter, but from the outside looking in, the deadly standup combo seems like muay thai with a boxer's hands. And then BJJ and/or wrestling for handling yourself on the ground.

But at what point do you think it's "enough" to be able to handle yourself in 80% of situations without being overkill? And how much regular training would keep you in decent shape and keep your skills up to par without spending an impractical amount of time and causing wear and tear on your joints.

I'm not really venturing any opinion on this - I'm legitimately curious about your guys' thoughts. To the experts out there, if you were going to "hack" fighting like we try to hack everything else in life, what would you study, to what extent, and what type of lifelong regimen would you put together for keeping yourself sharp enough?

Quote: (12-23-2013 05:51 AM)houston Wrote:  

Edmund I got into a fight with a wrestler in high school. He probably had at least 70 pounds on me. We threw a few punches then he threw me on the ground and attempted to hit me with his knee or something. His leg was raised so I started punching his balls over and over lol. Honor is out the window unless you're in a ring, especially if you're a lot bigger than me.

This idea gets thrown around quite a bit and I had the same thought; I pride myself on being a pretty dirty fighter. I'm not the type of guy to "step outside," as to me fighting is not a gentleman sport. To me it's not sport at all. No matter who I'm fighting, I always make it a point to overestimate them, and no matter why I'm fighting, I fight for survival. I've won a lot of fights or gotten myself out of bad situations just by being more extreme.

That said, and with only survival in mind, honor does still have a place in fighting if for no other reason that you can put yourself in grave danger by ignoring the "rules" of the streets. This is really dependent on situation - if some loonball attacks you while you're walking down the road minding your own business than by all means use every dirty trick in the book to incapacitate him and get the fuck out of there. Same if you get jumped by multiple people.

But if some asshole has his mind set on brawling you at a bar because he feels like disrespected - even if he is in the wrong and you've tried to get out of fighting - it might be a bad idea to start placing nut shots, for instance. The sole reason is that such a move can quickly escalate you from facing one formidable attacker to having all his buddies practicing football punts to your dome while you roll into a ball on the ground.

In streetfights, people are embarassingly quick to jump in as it is - that's true. But part of defending yourself properly in a real situation is not enticing the crowd to wield their mob mentality. You've got to stay aware of what they're about too and fight accordingly. Of course, I tend to roll solo; if you cruise with a lot of backup it becomes less of an issue.

Another thing to keep in mind is that every time you bring it up a notch, there's a chance you'll entice your opponent to do the same. An eye gouge might freak him out and get you out of a sticky situation, but now you've just raised the bar on the violence, and if the guy is not only bigger but also tougher and meaner, well, now he might not feel too bad about raking your eyeball right out of your skull or curb-stomping you.

Just like you could pull a blade on someone, but now they'll feel justified to pull a blade or even a gun.

Not saying to never use these tactics, but keeping some of the basic ideas of honor in mind when brawling can go as far towards protecting you as the ahole you're scrapping with.

BB, people who don't have a passion for bjj, boxing or whatever won't stick with it long enough for it to matter. Both are tough spots that no one will be able to become proficient in if they don't enjoy the training. That's why the best combat sport to study is the one that you like enough to train consistently in.

Houston, fighting dirty is part of the game. However, the last thing you want to do when you have a grappler on top of you is to escalate the fight and make them angry. If I was fighting someone, and on top of them no less, punching me in the balls, eye gouging me, biting me, etc. is a terrible, terrible idea. If I'm on top, I can LITERALLY eat their face.

You were young when that fight happened. If you ever get put on your back against a grappler again, don't fight dirty. He could literally smash your skull in on the concrete. I always laugh at the bjj naysayers who talk about biting guys and groin strikes. That's just asking to get your face cheese gratered across the ground, or your ear biten off.

What can you do if you're pinned on the ground?

houston: swap spots...

Quote: (12-23-2013 09:12 AM)houston Wrote:  

What can you do if you're pinned on the ground?

Jiu Jitsu hah.

Really, the only thing I can write that would help you is to not get pinned in the first place. If they try to pin you, kick them off of you as hard as you can BEFORE they have a strong grip on you and then stand up quickly. Launch them away with both feet if possible. The more space you can create, the more time you have to get back to your feet.

If you're pinned on the ground and can't get up, hold them behind the back of their head and pull it down to your chest/beside your head so you are ear to ear. Use both hands and pull them down as hard and quickly as possible. Once their posture is broken use your left arm to overtook their right arm, while still keeping them held down behind their neck with your other hand. By closing the space and keeping their posture broken they won't be able to get any power on their punches.

Quote: (12-23-2013 09:12 AM)houston Wrote:  

What can you do if you're pinned on the ground?

Learn to really fight. What you learn in the ring isn't going to help you in real life.

"Rather than rise to the occasion in a conflict, one will always default to their level of training."

Remember that. How you train is how you fight. That hero shit is from the movies. I've watched guys bar fight that did everything by the book. Dojo's don't teach you:

Swinging pool cues
Throwing pool balls
Flinging salt
eye gouging
Ear canal poking
Biting
Licking
Oil checking
Verbal mind fucking
Bitch slapping
Coating hands w/ hot sauce/jalapenos
Shooting

I'd say an athletic mid level blue belt in BJJ can handle himself in 80%+ of 1 on 1 situations against regular opposition where there aren't weapons involved.

To hack fighting, probably 2-3 years of BJJ/Wrestling, 2 years of Muay Thai or Boxing, and some Krav for weapon defense/group fighting. In terms of the general population that would put you in a very high percentile for self-defense ability. The other skill is to be observant and aware in your environment, a lot of people go through life with blinders on. I remember having a friend tell me as a teenager, everything can be a weapon.

You still won't be an expert, but for BJJ as you progress a lot of the stuff you learn is specialized. In a regular situation there's no need to get fancy, because a regular opponent is susceptible to the basics. Hit a double, or a basic body clinch takedown, get mount or side control, stabilize the position, and wait for him to make a mistake. Against a more skilled opponent there's a lot more maneuvering, you either have to force him to make a mistake with constant pressure or trick him into making one.

Quote: (12-23-2013 09:40 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

Licking
Oil checking

I would like to hear more about these techniques in particular....

If you get pinned, you do anything to get up. Lick a dudes ear and act gay. 'Shove' your thumb up his bum.

Him: I'll kill you mother fucker.
Me: Oh shit man I'm bleeding!
Him: You will some more bitch.
Me: I caught AIDS in Thailand last year from a hooker. Don't get it on you.

Mind fucking dudes will give you the element of surprise. Use that moment to gain advantage or GTFO.

Quote: (12-23-2013 10:33 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

If you get pinned, you do anything to get up. Lick a dudes ear and act gay. 'Shove' your thumb up his bum.

Him: I'll kill you mother fucker.
Me: Oh shit man I'm bleeding!
Him: You will some more bitch.
Me: I caught AIDS in Thailand last year from a hooker. Don't get it on you.

Mind fucking dudes will give you the element of surprise. Use that moment to gain advantage or GTFO.

That would probably work lol.

Neo, I was at a seminar once with John Frankl, dude who brought BJJ to S. Korea. He said "10% of Jiu Jitsu works in 90% of situations, and 90% of BJJ works in 10% of situations.". I think that's a pretty true statement.

As a mid level blue belt who has been training ~4ish years, I got sick of the fancy BJJ crap that only works in a sport setting. I think I hit that point of diminishing returns in my training and prefer to focus my training on more nogi, wrestling and striking. Unfortunately there isn't an MMA gym in Bangkok.

Quote: (12-22-2013 05:35 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

I had a big long rant on here somewhere about my problems with the current state of bjj. Against an untrained opponent you don't need striking at all to take them down, but you do need to have some solid takedown skills, especially if they are a big strong guy.

The "90% of all fights end up on the ground." Is nonsense spread by the Gracie family. A lot of rights end up on the ground, but a lot don't. No idea what the percentage is, but a grappler needs to PUT his opponent on the ground, and takedowns are necessary for that. Unfortunately, the large majority of bjj schools don't emphasize that.

Bjj is awesome for a one on one fight, not so awesome otherwise.

I enjoy the passive aggressiveness at the end of your comment as well. Really snuck that one in there like a good jab.

I think BJJ is less about the fight going to the ground 90% of the time, and more about taking the fight where you want it to be. Obviously it's good to get proficient in some takedowns that work for you. If you want it to go to the ground(possibly a 1 on 1 street fight), you'll be able to destroy this guy. The fight may or may not go to the ground, but if it does, you are prepared. You need both striking and grappling, even if it's just wrestling.

For JUST self defense, I'd do Judo and and Muay Thai. If I could only choose one, Judo for sure.
I've done a few years of Muay Thai and am a Blue Belt in BJJ(close to 3.5 years of training since May of 08).

When I lived in Pittsburgh, I trained under a brown belt in Judo and a now black belt in BJJ. Learning some Judo was priceless and has helped my BJJ a lot.

With MT, the boxing is average, but in a fight, no one expects the lethal kicks that can come with learning MT. Hands down better than just straight up boxing.

Quote: (12-23-2013 10:42 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

He said "10% of Jiu Jitsu works in 90% of situations, and 90% of BJJ works in 10% of situations.". I think that's a pretty true statement.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

So couldn't someone focus on the 10% then and after they had it down devise a training routine that kept them proficient enough in that area that they'd be covered in the 90% of situations they might see on the street? Maybe even go roll around at the gym with the more serious fighters from time to time? Same with muay thai and/or boxing?

You can be passionate about something yet have more important priorities in your life too.

It doesn't seem to take much fighting skill to make a big difference. For instance, just the basics I learned in high school wrestling (mostly the intuitive understanding of leverage, how to take people down, how to keep them down, and how to not get taken down) along with natural strength and aggression has served me pretty well all my life. And while I don't know that I ever learned to throw a proper punch I have my share of knockouts under my belt.

Obviously a trained fighter would tear me to shreds. But I'd imagine with the experience and skills I already have, even some boxing and muay thai basics along with some basic BJJ knowledge would carry me a long way against most untrained people I'd come up against in the streets, and most people are untrained.

That's what I mean by 80/20. I'm not ragging on MMA or the idea of making it a life passion at all; I'm just not sold on constant, lifelong training to be the only solution for preparing yourself for the the odds of combat in the streets. As another example, it seems to me like someone who boxed for two years and never did it again is going to be much better off than someone who never learned at all.

Quote: (12-23-2013 10:47 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Quote: (12-23-2013 10:42 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

He said "10% of Jiu Jitsu works in 90% of situations, and 90% of BJJ works in 10% of situations.". I think that's a pretty true statement.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

Couldn't someone focus on the 10% and then devise a training routine that kept them proficient enough in that area that they'd be covered in the 90% of situations they might see on the street? Same with muay thai and/or boxing? You can be passionate about something yet have more important priorities in your life too.

For instance, just the basics I learned in high school wrestling (mostly the intuitive understanding of leverage, how to take people down, how to keep them down, and how to not get taken down) along with natural strength and aggression has served me pretty well all my life. And while I don't know that I ever learned to throw a proper punch I have my share of knockouts under my belt.

Obviously a trained fighter would tear me to shreds. But I'd imagine with the experience and skills I already have, even some boxing and muay thai basics along with some basic BJJ knowledge would carry me a long way against most untrained people I'd come up against in the streets, and most people are untrained.

That's what I mean by 80/20. I'm not ragging on MMA or the idea of making it a life passion at all; I'm just not sold on constant, lifelong training to be the only solution for preparing yourself for the the odds of combat in the streets. Obviously, someone who boxed for two years and never did it again, for instance, is going to be better off than someone who never learned at all.

With me, I know I could handle myself on the ground if it were to come to that. I've had enough stand up training to do decent, but not great in a street fight. I can take the fight to the ground if need be and do what I do best.

With me, BJJ is a passion. I don't train it just for sport or self defense. I do it because I LOVE the art for what it is. Of course it helps that you are surrounded by people that motivate you.

Quote: (12-23-2013 10:55 AM)txtraveler Wrote:  

With me, BJJ is a passion. I don't train it just for sport or self defense. I do it because I LOVE the art for what it is. Of course it helps that you are surrounded by people that motivate you.

Not sure if you caught my initial post on the matter.

I'm well aware that most practitioners are driven by passion. A lot of people who train constantly feel that way, and that's pretty cool as far as interests go.

My post was focused on the question of whether there was an 80/20 for the rest of the world that made more sense.

It's like the idea of training for wilderness survival skills your whole life that you likely won't need. Sure, if you love being in the wilderness all the time and really have a passion for the stuff, that's fantastic - have at it. But for the general modern-day man who has other things he'd rather focus on, it seems to make more sense that you know the 20% that is imperative.

Quote: (12-23-2013 10:47 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

That's what I mean by 80/20. I'm not ragging on MMA or the idea of making it a life passion at all; I'm just not sold on constant, lifelong training to be the only solution for preparing yourself for the the odds of combat in the streets. As another example, it seems to me like someone who boxed for two years and never did it again is going to be much better off than someone who never learned at all.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...boxer.html

Exactly. That story came to my mind when I wrote that, actually.

A little bit of something is always better than a whole lot of nothing

BB, you don't have to train hardcore for life. It's best to stay in shape and train when you can, but as you say, a couple years of boxing will put you way ahead of most guys out there.