bad planning from instructors part.

I've been helping a 20 yr old Asian guy in Vancouver. Kid's got massive set on him, approaching stone cold stunners from day 1. Direct... Only after thousands of approaches and becoming very alpha attitude he started seeing results. Like guys above said, Direct without mindset doesn't work as good. Recently he got approached by a fatty and he was enraged about "Does she really think I am at her level?"
Entitlement
I bet women have issues with bad game rather than approaching...

I can't hate on 'em because we all had to start somewhere.

I'm loving the Mall Rentacops though. It's like they're so proud of their "intel" that they had to tweet it. They probably think of themselves as the NSA with covert ops gathering intelligence to protect that masses of greedy consumers shopping for junk at the mall. Self important arrogant pricks.

the mall cops tweeted that they were busting up the PUA meet up

I don't think anyone from RVF should have a problem with this. In fact, it may be useful because it's removing these losers from the equation. These assholes are just ruining for themselves.

The best 'game' is 'no game'.

Translation: you're not using a bad line, wearing a fedora, or a suit from International Clothiers. You're just being a legitimate funny, and interesting guy. Someone who doesn't just go for broke right away, but gauges the situation, and reads the signs before deciding whether or not to make a move.

These guys definitely don't have that. They are coming on as too aggressive, and making their intentions clear right off the bat. Let the mall cops clear them out. The only problem is that girls will have their shields elevated, by again, if you're not an asshole, it's not a big deal I think.

Quote: (12-07-2013 07:59 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Indirect, indirect, indirect.

That is the sign of a true player versus a weak one. Direct game doesn't work unless you are 100% there. No excuses

Could you define what you mean by 100% there, outside of being Justin Bieber?

I get why women are irked about hordes of thirsty dudes with bad game saying the same shit. Calling it sexual harassment is a bit much, but for the most part these men are trying to talk to women in any way they can. When a beta pedestalizes women for so long he has no other option than to treat them like objects lest they fuck themselves up by seeing the true nature of women. Betas see only the good, these 'PUAs' doing mass approaches see them as objects which they feed lines into and get responses out of. It would be too much for a beta to wrap his head around the fact that most of the women he see are not princesses, they daydream about rape fantasies, they want gangbangs, they fuck multiple guys at the same time etc. (for the worst of their behavior)

That being said: I know women believe meeting someone should "just happen" but how do they expect men to make things just happen if they never grow the balls to talk to girls?

I say God bless. These guys are trying to learn social skills they never developed organically.

I harassed chicks in bars and clubs for a year using stupid lines before I started all over from scratch and figured this thing out on my own.

The problem with these bootcamps is the top-down approach: theory to practice. I.e. "say this shit" and X, Y and Z will follow. So when they get an unexpected reaction, these guys don't know what to do. They have too much faith in the algorithm.

But...they're making an effort to get this part of their lives sorted. Too bad they're doing it amidst one of the most ridiculously feminist places in the universe. Not exactly the best place to get a positive reference experience.

Quote: (12-07-2013 11:26 AM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

That being said: I know women believe meeting someone should "just happen" but how do they expect men to make things just happen if they never grow the balls to talk to girls?

Women - at least pretty ones live in an alternate reality because most men do most things for them in their lives.

They don't know to replace a tire because a man will offer roadside assistance because she's pretty.

They don't know any good manners because the average male won't correct her, happy to bask in her presence.

They don't know how to work for a living because Daddy pays for their apartments and cars and chump millionaires wine and dine them for a chance to get some.

They don't know how to fuck well because too many men are satisfied just pounding away while she lays there like a starfish.

Wald

Yes you have to make yourself look amazing to do any kind of direct day game or game in general. What that is manifests differently, but you got too look at it from the perspective.

All those newbie guys should be using elderly chat until they've gotten their style, physique, and body language together.

It takes a lot of work to go from being a loser to a winner here. People have to respect the reality of the situation.

Going direct is a very powerful move. If you don't have the game to back it up, you take a huge social risk and will burn out any venue.


Someone should start a thread on how to run game as a mall cop. I bet you can get a lot of poon if you just target tourist chicks. Think about the possibilities.

You know where all the secret rooms are for bangs. You know how to avoid cameras.

Here's my prescription for mall cop game: you can "arrest" hot girls for suspected shop lifting. You can do it in a really charming way. Take them to some "waiting room" and wait with them for the authorities or some shit. While you are waiting you can drop all your game on them. Then you can get a call saying it's ok for her to go, and that they found the real suspect.

Now you can tell her that you have your break or are off from work ( you've already planted this in the eaiting room conversation) and suggest that you guys hang out or show her around town. Insta date!

I bet you could even pull this off dressed as a fake mall cop, or undercover cop.

A guy walking up to a girl in a crowded public space and chatting her up is the most natural thing in the world.

The hyperbolic bullshit being spewed by the feminazi-sympathetic mainstream media is the usual. No surprise there. Obviously, (1) going up to a stranger and (2) starting a conversation is not sexual harassment (unless the guy does something idiotic and uncalibrated like compliment her tits).

The problem with this meetup was that it was hosted on a public web site where anyone could see it and learn what was going on (including haters, feminists, and white knights with their preconceived notions).

That being said, oversaturating an area with a meetup isn't a good idea. A girl getting approached by ten newbies in an hour, all deploying the same "line", is bad PR and a bad example of stereotypical "PUA" behavior.

Quote: (12-07-2013 11:18 AM)Frontenac Wrote:  

I don't think anyone from RVF should have a problem with this. In fact, it may be useful because it's removing these losers from the equation. These assholes are just ruining for themselves.

The best 'game' is 'no game'.

Translation: you're not using a bad line, wearing a fedora, or a suit from International Clothiers. You're just being a legitimate funny, and interesting guy. Someone who doesn't just go for broke right away, but gauges the situation, and reads the signs before deciding whether or not to make a move.

Here's the problem- put yourself in the shoes of a beta who wants to improve his situation with women. You know you're not having success with women, and you want to find out how you can do better.

Most advice for men is like the aboce- Be Funny! Be Interesting! Be Confident! Know how to learn to read a woman's signs!

Well great, how are you supposed to do that? If you're not funny already, if you're not good at having interesting conversations- you can't just flip a switch and say "Ok, today I will be funny". If you're not confident, becoming confident isn't just a matter of saying "Ok, I am going to be confident now". Most advice that is available ie either terrible (just be nice), or is like the above, overly broad, too general, without any clear way of being able to implement it.

PUA, for whatever its flaws, offers detailed advice as to what you can to seduce a woman, from meeting her to closing the deal. And it also offers a perscription on what you should do- approach a lot of women and keep practicing until you get good at it. And for whatever its flaws, it actually does lead to a lot of man getting more success with women.

That's not to say there's not a lot of problems with the whole scene. For one, there is stuff like this mall escpade. There is good advice like Roosh's material, but than there is a lot of terrible advice out there too. A lot of the advice leads people to act in ways that are simply weird. While I did get better with women for while I was involved with that scene, I got way better results after I stopped hanging out with those groups and started focusing on self improvement.

But for all their problems, they are one of the few movements that tries to actually help men in a western society that has become hostile to the idea of men trying to better their sexual lot. So instead of slamming men who are trying to learn game, hold your fire and critcize the bitch-men who just complain about women behind a keyboard and do nothing to improve themselves.

Quote: (12-07-2013 11:53 AM)soup Wrote:  

Yes you have to make yourself look amazing to do any kind of direct day game or game in general. What that is manifests differently, but you got too look at it from the perspective.

All those newbie guys should be using elderly chat until they've gotten their style, physique, and body language together.

It takes a lot of work to go from being a loser to a winner here. People have to respect the reality of the situation.

Going direct is a very powerful move. If you don't have the game to back it up, you take a huge social risk and will burn out any venue.


Someone should start a thread on how to run game as a mall cop. I bet you can get a lot of poon if you just target tourist chicks. Think about the possibilities.

You know where all the secret rooms are for bangs. You know how to avoid cameras.

Here's my prescription for mall cop game: you can "arrest" hot girls for suspected shop lifting. You can do it in a really charming way. Take them to some "waiting room" and wait with them for the authorities or some shit. While you are waiting you can drop all your game on them. Then you can get a call saying it's ok for her to go, and that they found the real suspect.

Now you can tell her that you have your break or are off from work ( you've already planted this in the eaiting room conversation) and suggest that you guys hang out or show her around town. Insta date!

I bet you could even pull this off dressed as a fake mall cop, or undercover cop.

I think you got a movie script dude. Throw in a Segway, some hijinx

lol, I went to a lair meeting in Toronto about 10 years ago, it sucked then, I can only imagine what its like now. It was just an excuse to make money off desperate guys. One of the speakers offered a quick trip to the club for 80 bucks a head. He thought he was really tough shit, they tried to kick me out of the meeting for mentioning foreign girls and only one guy out of 100 or so agreed with me. The rest were all talking about hitting the streets to go sarging. Game has never worked for me in the West liked it worked overseas and I suspect it never will, women are so hostile in Canada its like walking in a mine field made of dogshit.

I use to watch that keys to the vip show they filmed at limelight. 90% of the guys on that show were idiots, including the 4 judges who thought they all had game. I honestly can't believe Mystery gave up Morrowind to meet western women, what a waste of time.

Quote: (12-07-2013 11:53 AM)soup Wrote:  

Someone should start a thread on how to run game as a mall cop. I bet you can get a lot of poon if you just target tourist chicks. Think about the possibilities.

Have you seen how pathetic mall rent-a-cops are. They are the turds in high school who got off on being hallway patrol because it gave them a position of authority they could never earn themselves. The recent caricature in the South Park 3 part Black Friday episode is a perfect picture of these turds.

They go home every night to a fat, slovenly wife or girlfriend stuff her face with KFC. Or they go home and jerk it to weird porn.

PUA shit is designed exactly for these turds to help them wake up.

Quote:Quote:

I bet you could even pull this off dressed as a fake mall cop, or undercover cop.

Arrest for impersonating an officer or security.

I have experience with this as I have done approaches in this exact mall before.

Having said that, that was mostly a long time ago, when I first started doing day approaches. About a year to a year and a half now.

At that time, I think girls were receptive. By that mean the interactions were positive, and I found more girls than I expected were attracted to me. I was mainly approaching to work on my confidence and get used to the idea of a numbers game. Sometimes I went for numbers where the lead wasn't strong and at times failed to get a number when the girl was giving me a day puppy-dog eyed look, so my closing game was weak. I had done maybe a few different days approaching at the Eaton Centre and neighbouring streets, probably around 40 or so total day approaches.

In terms of getting meet ups, I wasn't very successful. Only 2 of these girls I met up for dates. However, I did lose my virginity to one of them and the other I got very close to banging, and I considered that a success at the time, considering that she was a few years older than me and of high financial status.

I have a couple friends in Toronto that do approaches in the area and attend the University there as well. They have noticed this similar trend. Daygame everywhere. I have been through Eaton Centre a couple times recently and I did not spend an hour at the mall without seeing some guy spitting game.

The location is great. Large mall, consistent traffic, people moving in and out, a fantastic location for numbers game.

Problem is, these guys are all social retards. At least the majority. I remember watching one guy approach:

'Excuse me, do you know where the xyz shop is?'
'Oh, it's over in that direction'
'.. actually I know where it is, I just wanted to come and talk to you I think you are cute'
'... oh haha' (sympathetic, not a 'omg this guy likes me')

This game does not work. Unless you have some serious attraction values that put you in the category of 'don't fuck it up game' in general.

The worst is that when girls don't like these guys many of them come to the conclusion of 'yeah she was a bitch, NEXT.'

These guys stand around the fountain and approach everything in sight, directly.

These girls are complaining about being approached by these creepy guys all the time. However, if you pick out a socially calibrated guy, well dressed, fit, who not only has strong game but is most importantly SOCIALLY AWARE, he can make these girls who complain about creepy guys squeal in delight at his approach. I've had this happen, and these were approaches I did when I knew there were hordes of guys approaching in the mall.

I talked to the girl about there being many guys who approach at the mall. She knew about them and told me she has been approached before, with mostly bad experiences. I had a very laid back vibe with her, but the most important aspect was being socially aware. I don't think I took her number for some reason I don't remember but I remember it being a very positive interaction.

Being socially aware in these situations:
- picking the right girl to approach. Look at her body language, her walking speed to see if she would be open
- Is she on her phone or looking around, making eye contact
- when you approach, be a lengthy distance away, don't get up in her face
- direct game only works if you have the true confidence to say what you are saying and the girl is going to be attracted to you. These guys say the most direct lines without genuine confidence and they aren't attractive dudes. I was doing mild direct approaches and I was confident with those and the girls liking me so I had positive reactions mostly.

A large part of this is also your vibe. A guy that is comfortable with himself is more likely to have girls enjoy his presence, where a guy who isn't and has some underlying issues he should work on might be unconsciously be giving a negative vibe that will make the girl feel awkward, nervous, uneasy, or something in between.

Ever since my direct approaching experience in this area however, I have fine tuned my day game. I've read and internalized Bang and Day Bang with success. My day approaches are infinitely stronger and positive. Most of my approaches now (when I do them, I've been lazy recently) are indirect, occasionally mildly direct. If I were to be back in this Toronto situation, I'd be going more indirect for sure. The most important part of it however would be your vibe and your awareness. That girl in the mall might have been approached 5 times that day already and she is sick of getting approached, but if you approach her with a proper vibe and awareness, you can have a positive experience.

These guys that are leaving this bad impression are ruining it for themselves. They are socially retarded (again, mostly) and might only convert a date once every 50-100 approaches. Key word is might.

To be humble here though, I probably was one of those guys at first. Although I definitely wasn't as socially uncalibrated. I was spitting direct approaches in all directions at one point though.

Maybe it's a necessary phase. However, it's important that it remains as a phase, and you grow from it. You develop and reach a greater level. From what I see and I've seen in other guys I have met that have done this (most of them I've let my contact with them die out), most will never reach a higher level. They will never graduate from that pathetic game. They will always be in denial.

They will always think about approaching more. And more. And they won't realize the problem is an inner one, and that's what they have to fix.

It's sad because there is some good in RSD. Some of the material is great and possibly revolutionary in some aspects. But either a lot of guys are taking their message out of context or the message is being delivered in the wrong way, or somewhere in between. My thought's on RSD could warrant a lengthy post on its own, however, I think the problem is mostly in the guys themselves, possibly without a proper model to look up to, besides guys telling them to just approach more.

The women all hate the cat calls and approaches until the one day it all stops....

Damn, I was gonna book my place at a PUA bootcamp in Toronto next month, but unfortunately I've already got my name down to attend a surf school located in a swamp...

When you learned to walk, you probably fell down a few times. These guys are just falling down while learning to walk.

Quote: (12-07-2013 12:59 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

When you learned to walk, you probably fell down a few times. These guys are just falling down while learning to walk.

The world is a harsh environment for game babies these days.

There's a huge firewall between alpha and beta.

Guys who are just getting into it need to really take baby steps (indirect) until they know what they are doing.

Subtlety makes a huge difference now.

The best/first thing a PUA teacher can instill in his boys is that they might have a long road ahead. This might not be true for all of them, but promising pie in the sky is just wrong. Telling a guy to be "interesting" or "funny" is like telling him to "be himself"- it's true in the pure sense, but is completely meaningless to guys with no experience

Quote: (12-07-2013 08:14 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

Quote: (12-07-2013 08:03 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

Indirect, indirect, indirect.

Yes, indirect game is best in a more hostile environments like America and Canada, especially one where women are quick to call security or complain on the internet when you approach them directly. I designed elderly approaching for American targets.

In Eastern European, a direct approach is likely to go off much better in enclosed environments like malls.

Even then if it is indirect, I've had a fair bit of success just going up to girls who just smile at me and asking them back, "Hey how are you doing?" The difference being, I only go up to girls who notice me and smile back which happens to be a semi decent amount.

What you fail to understand is that in Toronto girls will not look you in the eye. Its nearly impossible to lock eyes and catch a smile, even at night time in venues. The only time I've had this happen is University bars outside of the Greater Toronto Area, and even there half of the girls are from Toronto.

Further, many of the girls are brown. However, they are westernized and attractive, but they have hordes of orbiters and if you approach one of these girls it is not unheard of to get swarmed by her cousins or what have you simply for talking to her.

I have the most luck with the asians in Toronto to be honest. They are looking for white dudes, are feminine, shy but not hostile.

It really is that bad guys. Its hard for you to understand if you have not experienced it first hand.

Assuming your game/confidence is in check, an alternative approach could be to hang out and watch for these guys to fail at picking up, then swoop in and say something to the effect of "wow, I couldn't help but notice that...was that guy serious?" Big smile...share the moment, and escalate as usual.

These guys are way late to the party

They are running second generation game when the cutting edge is now 4th generation

The heart of the anger from the reddit thread is this succinct comment from sgtdisaster:

"Have you ever heard of the phenomenon where if something is repeated enough it just becomes muscle memory or second nature? Sure, you'd be able to handle rejection easily, but only because you've gone through so many women using the same tired techniques that in your mind women are disposable."

Spelled out, the hatred of Game stems from the proposition that a man getting identical behavior from women who treat him as disposable or interchangeable may start to view women themselves as being interchangeable. In other words, how is a woman who is through her own behavior indistinguishable from a multitude of other women going to get a man to recognize her as unique without any changes to her own behavior?

So, we all know that chicks dig firefighters and many have that "man in uniform" fetish/fantasy.

...that being said, does the mall cop ever fuck the girl in the end (like the conclusion)?

I feel like its getting harder and harder for socially awkward guys in Toronto to breakout of their awkwardness and become cooler. The pickup community is expanding quickly and more and more girls are being approached. The current model of churning out thousands of approaches is simply unsustainable because girls are going to get sick of being hit on.

Ironically the way to get good in TO if you started out as a socially awkward dude is doing shittons of approaches plus improving your fashion. I don't know a single guy who was bad when he started out who got good without tons of approaches. Its the way it is here.

Thing is these guy should stick to night game since you can fit in the rest of the drunk people and not attract a shitton of attention. Plus night game seems to result in better growth for new guys because you can learn to escalate(hard to day in day game).

Also in terms of daygame there is a place for direct game for a newbie. It can provide a great initial confidence boost when starting out, as nothing is a better feeling than so drastically breaking out of social norms. However at a certain point you have to be intelligent about things and show some subtlety.