In my opinion this is the single most difficult part of game. Approaching isn't necessarily hard, nor is planning your logistics or escalating with a woman that's warm to you.

I find the single most difficult thing is building attraction in women who are indifferent to you or don't consider you their type. Of course no man no matter how good he is can have every woman he desires. But I think a good measure of your progress is seeing the number of girls go up that you are converting from indifferent to warm. A guy who can do this consistently with girls at least 2 points above him has reached the highest level of outer game.

I am curious though as to how many guys are highly skilled in this phase of the game and what were your milestones and insights that got you on that level.

Dress uniquely sharp, razor-sharp humour, offer something to her (drinks, jays, cigarettes), boldness. <---- In short, you have to break her inertia.

And sometimes you just got to take the L and walk away.

Quote: (07-11-2013 01:31 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

In my opinion this is the single most difficult part of game. Approaching isn't necessarily hard, nor is planning your logistics or escalating with a woman that's warm to you.

I find the single most difficult thing is building attraction in women who are indifferent to you or don't consider you their type. Of course no man no matter how good he is can have every woman he desires. But I think a good measure of your progress is seeing the number of girls go up that you are converting from indifferent to warm. A guy who can do this consistently with girls at least 2 points above him has reached the highest level of outer game.

I am curious though as to how many guys are highly skilled in this phase of the game and what were your milestones and insights that got you on that level.

That's what I'm finding out now, but Roosh always says that the best players are also the ones who get rejected the most. I think there was something about that in today's ROK's newsletter.

As for the 2nd part- milestones and insights.

1) Insight #1- People take time to get used to you
It take about 2-3 mins for people to feel you out. Sometimes those "on signals" you see means the girls has noticed you already and really liked you, or she has looked at you and grown to like you. Theres no real way of knowing or predicting it.

This is why I am a big advocate of making a slow, sweeping loop of a spot when I get there (excuse- I am going to the bathroom, if they ask). I walk slowly and try to make eye contact w/various girls that I like. Do this early before the drunkards start going.

I usually lightly touch base w/random girls if i see them "eye me back". Just a "hi, how are you...yada yada yada". Ill usually keep it short and let her and her group get used to me. "Hey, Ill catch up w/you later. I need hit the bathroom. Stop distracting me. Wink at the group/girl "

This lets you see the crowd and acclimate to the vibe of the spot. Don't be surprised if the crowd responds better your 2nd or 3rd lap.

2) Insight #2- Watch others carefully
Keep a firm lookout. Somebody elses failure can be your success. If you see somebody flame out spectacularly, you can rise like a phoenix from his ashes. Walk up and ask her, "Howd he do?" w/a light smirk. You should get a little laugh out of it. Its yours to run with now.

3) Insight #3- Wink at girls
Throw out little invitations for girls to respond. I wink at girls all the time, sometimes they ignore me, sometimes they stare back. For a 1/2 second motion, its a great return.

4) Insight #4- Cold Read
Sometimes Ill see a particularly striking girl and Ill wonder what nationality she is. I've gotten really good at this. Esp for large metropolitan cities, there a lot of mutts. I walk up to girls and say "hi. I was wondering.... what are you?" Usually girls will stutter and say "human" "a girl" or something snarky/shocked. But ill just level a steely smile. Girls crack in unfamiliar situations (ala AliB's reframe situation). In a scenario they aren't often used to= bitch-shields down +plausible deniability.

Even better if you nail her nationality on the head. Then flip the game, and have her guess where you are from. Speakeasy, I know you are black dude. Are you french creole mix w/others? Make it interesting.

Interesting+time invested= good chances of taking it further.

Theres tons more I've seen or done, but this should give you some thoughts.

Act even more indifferent to her. Tell her how she's not your type etc.

Are they telling you straight up that you're not their type or are you making an assumption? What part of the process are you feeling the indifference? The approach, the conversation, the follow up?

To me "type" has to do with your appearance, who you're seen interacting with and your conversation style. In that order. If you're targeting specific women or going to venues where there is a certain type, you might want to tailor your style to that environment. When in doubt, appear like you're a man of money and means. That seems to be every chicks type.

Quote: (07-11-2013 05:28 PM)Vaquero Wrote:  

Are they telling you straight up that you're not their type or are you making an assumption?

Well no girls ever straight up tell you that. But when it comes to girls I know who I see brushing guys off I'll ask them why they weren't feeling him. It's almost never anything actually wrong with the guy, he just wasn't their physical type or good-looking enough. If you are a girl's physical type and she's available, you are 75% there. The other 25% is escalating, logistics and not doing anything stupid.

Quote:Quote:

What part of the process are you feeling the indifference?The approach, the conversation, the follow up?

For example, not mirroring kino-escalation or flirtation.

Quote:Quote:

To me "type" has to do with your appearance, who you're seen interacting with and your conversation style. In that order. If you're targeting specific women or going to venues where there is a certain type, you might want to tailor your style to that environment. When in doubt, appear like you're a man of money and means. That seems to be every chicks type.

By type here, I was talking about your overall looks, style, etc. E.g. surfer boy look, hipster, thugged out, rocker, button down business type, etc.

Not all girls are the same. Some you have to put in work for regardless of who you are. Whether you want to put that 'work' in is up to you.

Quote: (07-11-2013 05:39 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

For example, not mirroring kino-escalation or flirtation.

As long as she's still standing in front of you should keep going (hat tip Uncle Roosh). Until she shuts down alltogether and quits talking or walks away continue talking/rambling trying to get her to open up more. Especially if you think it's an issue with type, she probably just needs more time to warm up and is waiting on you to land on something she can relate to in the conversation.

It sounds like you just need to experiment with a few different approaches to see what works best b/c like MS said, not all chicks are the same and some are harder to read than others.

I got filleted by a modelesque 9's cockblocking wing last weekend. The interaction was going well. I actually started off by making such a rude asshole request for a cigarette lighter that it knocked her off her pedestal pretty well, unfortunately her wing started right off with the reverse-neg shit test, saying how rude it was the way I asked.

So I obnoxiously came back with an even harsher way to ask, which blew them both away momentarily and put the wing bitch in her place (until 5-10 minutes later). The 9 was showing me pics of her full back tatt, and other tatts, a few pics of her on a beach in bikini's with her sexy friends... moving right in the direction I wanted. Then, her bitchy ass friend (a solid 8 herself) physically got between us by pushing her way in, and dragged the 9 to the bathroom to kill the interaction.

Her wing programmed her in the bathroom to cold shoulder me, interaction ended.

I believe what created the attraction in the 9, who seemed clearly indifferent upon my approach, was having the guts to say something to her (and her bitch wing), that could have got me kicked out of the bar on premise of indecency.

Where I failed was not individually gaming them both - in the sense they were both indifferent upon my approach, and not necessarily interested - yet a group of 2 (even #) can be as difficult as any to break one off. And in the 8-9 range, all has to be flawless.

I think had I played sarcastically overly nice to the wing, rather than got even more obnoxious and blunt, I may have diverted the cockblock altogether and at least walked off with a #.

So I think one way to create attraction in "indifferent girls," be it approaches or over a period of time getting to know them, is simply doing something very "different" than their surroundings... enough to get noticed and remembered for, but not ridiculous enough to get labelled court jester.

Converting indifferent girls is tough. They need to see you in different settings, situations and interactions until they see the 'you' that is attractive to them.

This is why approaches in general are so cut throat. You're giving a girl one situation, one setting to judge you when it's actually only 0.004% of what you are.

Quote: (07-11-2013 01:31 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

In my opinion this is the single most difficult part of game. Approaching isn't necessarily hard, nor is planning your logistics or escalating with a woman that's warm to you.

Funny you started this thread.

I was having a "philosophical" discussion with Quest the other day. We bantered it about and agreed that the definition of game is creating attraction where none initially existed.

If I'm out and a girl smiles at me, approaching her isn't "game." It's just me not being a beta pussy who has approach anxiety and agonizes over whether she was really smiling at me or smiling just because.

The conversation came up because 3 girls walked past us while we were chilling. He stopped them with some line. They had zero interest in hanging with us.

Then I hooked them with some bullshit (long story) and next thing you know Quest is about to get a girls number.

So we went from zero interest to a number.

That's game.

Banging groupies, banging girls who smiled at you or were already into you, banging gold diggers, that's something else but it ain't game.

^ agree with 90% of this but here's my edit.

The above is "conversational game".

If you want to get attractive girls you must dress better, be more physically attractive (lift), and make more money. Most guys are such poor dressers and have such weak style girls won't even give them eye contact.

Working on yourself to achieve eye contact from 7+'s is also game IMHO. 5 years ago I would get zero looks. Now the game is much easier since I read up on 1) style, 2) colors, 3) ideal muscle proportions, 4) body language.

So yes from neutral to banging the girl = game. However going from getting zero looks because you have no style + fitness awareness to being checked out is also game IMHO.

If you are stylish + in shape + making good money. That same chick who is indifferent to you today would head turn you in a heart beat if you didn't take care of yourself.

Quote: (07-11-2013 02:56 PM)DVY Wrote:  

As for the 2nd part- milestones and insights.

1) Insight #1- People take time to get used to you
It take about 2-3 mins for people to feel you out. Sometimes those "on signals" you see means the girls has noticed you already and really liked you, or she has looked at you and grown to like you. Theres no real way of knowing or predicting it.

This is why I am a big advocate of making a slow, sweeping loop of a spot when I get there (excuse- I am going to the bathroom, if they ask). I walk slowly and try to make eye contact w/various girls that I like. Do this early before the drunkards start going.

I usually lightly touch base w/random girls if i see them "eye me back". Just a "hi, how are you...yada yada yada". Ill usually keep it short and let her and her group get used to me. "Hey, Ill catch up w/you later. I need hit the bathroom. Stop distracting me. Wink at the group/girl "

This lets you see the crowd and acclimate to the vibe of the spot. Don't be surprised if the crowd responds better your 2nd or 3rd lap.

2) Insight #2- Watch others carefully
Keep a firm lookout. Somebody elses failure can be your success. If you see somebody flame out spectacularly, you can rise like a phoenix from his ashes. Walk up and ask her, "Howd he do?" w/a light smirk. You should get a little laugh out of it. Its yours to run with now.

3) Insight #3- Wink at girls
Throw out little invitations for girls to respond. I wink at girls all the time, sometimes they ignore me, sometimes they stare back. For a 1/2 second motion, its a great return.

4) Insight #4- Cold Read
Sometimes Ill see a particularly striking girl and Ill wonder what nationality she is. I've gotten really good at this. Esp for large metropolitan cities, there a lot of mutts. I walk up to girls and say "hi. I was wondering.... what are you?" Usually girls will stutter and say "human" "a girl" or something snarky/shocked. But ill just level a steely smile. Girls crack in unfamiliar situations (ala AliB's reframe situation). In a scenario they aren't often used to= bitch-shields down +plausible deniability.

Even better if you nail her nationality on the head. Then flip the game, and have her guess where you are from. Speakeasy, I know you are black dude. Are you french creole mix w/others? Make it interesting.

Interesting+time invested= good chances of taking it further.

Theres tons more I've seen or done, but this should give you some thoughts.

I completely agree with this. In relation to point (4), a good tactic for foreigners is also to approach the surroundings of her group and pay attention to the language they speak.

Once I got it (the more exotic it is, the better, as long as you can detect it, or at least the region...). Then I go somewhere else where I can watch them discretely, and wait until the girls' conversation (better if they are two or three) is not in a high note. If they are really having a blast together, I might try myr luck but usually the chances of success are not so high.

So when they take a pause in the conversation, I lurk (sometimes with a wing) and say "hey girls, sorry to interrupt you, I was just wondering if you would be from [country]?" Usually the reaction is either mildly or very friendly, but it's very rare that the group shuts you off. From here on it's easy to build up, e.g. "Ah, there's been some time since I don't see someone from [country]. Last time was when I was, bla, bla, bla", and then the usual routine...

Basically, from a situation of indifference, this is one of million ways where you can start building raport quickly. "Plausible deniability" is really a great concept in these situations.... Or as they say in the cinema, the "suspension of desbelief"

Quote: (07-12-2013 01:50 AM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Banging groupies, banging girls who smiled at you or were already into you, banging gold diggers, that's something else but it ain't game.

Disagree. Just because a girl has some minimal level of initial attraction to you-maybe she met your eyes for a couple of seconds- in no way means the bang is in the bag. It's a long rocky road usually between the look and having her naked in bed.

Girl's attraction is multifaceted and you have to know how to maintain and increase that initial attraction. I'm sure we've all had the experience of an encounter going great for the first few minutes but then maybe you say something the girl didn't like, or fail a shit test,or you aren't cocky and funny enough, or you can't fend off cockblockers or AMOGs, or you don't kino right, or your logistics are bad, and and the girls interest fades and she's gone.

And we've all known the guy who was great looking or had something else major going for him, and who had girls approaching him and yet failed to get laid over and over again. If you observe their interaction,, you can see the girl starting out being attracted and excited to talk to him then looking increasingly disappointed and turned off and frustrated at his lack of game and beta conversation and finally just walking away.

I agree with West Coast that improving your looks and style and body language to create that initial attraction is game in itself. Plus I firmly believe from my own experience that once your Inner Game is strong you give off a sort of vibe that girls pick up on that attracts them to you before you even speak. That's game too.

Quote: (07-12-2013 08:12 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

^ agree with 90% of this but here's my edit.

The above is "conversational game".

If you want to get attractive girls you must dress better, be more physically attractive (lift), and make more money. Most guys are such poor dressers and have such weak style girls won't even give them eye contact.

Working on yourself to achieve eye contact from 7+'s is also game IMHO. 5 years ago I would get zero looks. Now the game is much easier since I read up on 1) style, 2) colors, 3) ideal muscle proportions, 4) body language.

So yes from neutral to banging the girl = game. However going from getting zero looks because you have no style + fitness awareness to being checked out is also game IMHO.

If you are stylish + in shape + making good money. That same chick who is indifferent to you today would head turn you in a heart beat if you didn't take care of yourself.

This is ALL true ...But if a girl doesn't like your physical looks(not her type) there is NOT much you can do.
Here in NYC, I used to go to after work lounges years ago. All of us men were well dressed and looked like we had good careers and style. What I noticed was the chicks were more interested in looking at each other than giving eye contact to guys.Seems they wer not flirting with anyone except the 10's.
Remember women attract to our faces first(guys go for body first)...therefore if we aren't her type we have little chance. It means she may think we are ugly!
I would think it safer to just approach other women until you find one who likes our type? I THINK Roosh believes in moving around until you find someone who is receptive than in trying to convince a negative or indifferent women.
Roosh specifically used the "still standing" reference about Ukraine. BUT in Ukraine it is different. Women do NOT use mans "looks" as a deciding factor.In fact a guy can actually be rejected for being to good looking there lol. Energy probably is more important. Rambling works there. but in America during night venues I THINK IT IS SAFER TO FIND A RECEPTIVE FEMALE.

I believe most of the time this limited belief comes from the individual itself. I notice that many guys half-approach. They see a really good looking girl, they stare at her, give her a weak hello, they see the girl is not replying, they walk away and think to themselves that the girl was not interested. The problem was that they believed that the girl was out of their league before they even approached, they sent that message to their brains and when they half approached, they approached with that negative thought ''she is out of my league". Negative primary thoughts will give you negative results even if you put things into action.

Show boldness, accentuate yourself, act like a man of confidence, get closer, speak like a professional, shake hands to create more intimacy if necessary, throw indirect jokes, state that you are a new guy in that town (even if you were born there), be half interested and if possible, specially if you created a fun atmosphere, neg her. Mix this with some of what westcoast said and you are good to go.

I had a friend who was 3 in looks (height helped him, he was 5.11) and one time he was dating this 9. The majority of girls he dated were out of his league. He didnt have lots of money and he didn't dress that well. His secret? He was a very confident dude. Confidence is king.

The short answer is to work on your indirect game and use a lot of push pull.

If you're the wrong race/height/social clique for her and you don't have some very obvious means of demonstrating high value, then it's going to be an uphill battle. More importantly the frontal assault is probably not best way to go. Flirt, give her a few minutes of very pleasurable interaction. Then stop and go do the same thing somewhere else. Make her want to be around you. That's the first step. And you can use that to build the attraction.

I don't really try Speakeasy. I can sense right away if a girl is into me and just back off if she aint feeling it. You can still tell if a girl likes you even if she's playing hard to get or putting up a front.

If you're sitting at your office and people come in and are interested in your product, are you a salesman when they buy it?

No. You're a clerk.

A salesman is someone who takes a prospect who isn't initially interested in his product and gets him to buy it.

The same is true of game.

You're not a true killer unless you are getting with girls who brushed you off or who weren't interested.

Quote: (07-12-2013 08:46 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

If you're sitting at your office and people come in and are interested in your product, are you a salesman when they buy it?

No. You're a clerk.

A salesman is someone who takes a prospect who isn't initially interested in his product and gets him to buy it.

The same is true of game.

You're not a true killer unless you are getting with girls who brushed you off or who weren't interested.

Great analogy. You nailed it. That is the essence of what game is.

This thread is cold water to the face for me. I realized that every one of my bangs have been from girls that were into me from the start and I didn't fuck it up. I don't think I've converted one that's been on the fence yet. Fortunately, another day the sun rises is another day where improvements can be made.

Quote: (07-12-2013 11:01 PM)NYJ Wrote:  

This thread is cold water to the face for me. I realized that every one of my bangs have been from girls that were into me from the start and I didn't fuck it up. I don't think I've converted one that's been on the fence yet. Fortunately, another day the sun rises is another day where improvements can be made.

Yeah. Just because a guy is getting a lot of pussy doesn't mean he has game. A tall blonde guy could be a social retard but fuck a new girl in Thailand every day. Does that mean he has game?

Quote: (07-12-2013 11:01 PM)NYJ Wrote:  

This thread is cold water to the face for me. I realized that every one of my bangs have been from girls that were into me from the start and I didn't fuck it up. I don't think I've converted one that's been on the fence yet. Fortunately, another day the sun rises is another day where improvements can be made.

Sometimes I muse if I ever "learned" game--or just dressed better, got more jacked, and approached more over the years, cruising on fuck-up avoidance game.

My style is pretty aloof--I think of approaching girls as not going after them, but rather giving them the opportunity to come after me. I tend to eject out of or otherwise abandon lukewarm approaches with girls pretty quickly.

Perhaps this is a sub-optimal habit and I should put more pressure on myself to implement more salesmanship.

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