Just calling it the way I see it chum. I for one haven't been to a night game venue in months. I've temporarily pulled the product from the shelf, so to speak.

My decision to go out hinges on the passing of the following test: What am I doing there?

Am I a bouncer? DJ? Bartender? Promoter of the club? Do I have an in with the staff? Am I a VIP guest? Am I the king of the dance floor? Can I come up with a better reason for going there than to drink, or to "party", or to do cold approaches at the bar? If the answer is no, then I don't go.

Over the past two months, I've finally started taking latin dance classes (salsa, bachata, etc). 10-15 hours per week. My goal is to become good enough to give myself a chance to dominate the local scene. Once I've become competent enough, I'll put the product back on the shelf.

This is the way of the future. As an average guy, you have to become a niche player if you hope to get more out of the game than what you put in.

Call me a defeatist if you will, but I know a shitty ROI when I see one.

Quote: (10-10-2012 04:53 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

If you're casual about it, going out for only two 3-hour sessions a week to approach when your game is average, you will have low numbers.

How many hours per week would you consider working hard for day game?

I get what your saying man.

Iam just looking at what are the main reasons guys dont get anywhere with girls in clubs.

1- They dont approach

2- They do approach but its weak or inappropriate and comes off as creepy and/or socially retarded

3- Their chat is terrible, either boring subjects, strange ones or they just flat out run of things to say

4- The idea of getting physical eludes them, they have no idea to push/pull and havnt the simplest grasps on what game/flirting is

And the underlying reason behind all these things is basically a fear of the girl not liking them and rejecting them. I still struggle at times with it. If iam in a poosy paradise I dont have this issue. But damn being in a western country soon brings the scarcity mindset about.

Quote: (10-10-2012 05:46 PM)Krauser Wrote:  

Quote: (10-10-2012 04:53 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Day game will never get mainstream... it's too hard.

This.

Also, the quality of modern men is declining at the same rate as the quality of modern women. Pushover emo/hipster/drone chumps are everywhere now. It will get progressively easier to separate yourself from the competition, but unfortunately the pool of targets will shrink too

I disagree with everything getting worse in America-- IF YOU ARE UNDER 35--I am rooming with 3 guys 25-30 in a Northern California college town; and they are all getting laid. Granted they are all middle class or better.

I think the mechanism works like this: the evil feminazis have succeeded so well that most men who haven't studied game are intimidated. Ironically this has caused mass sexual starvation among sub-8 women even of college age. Combined with that is the meme that cool, hot girls are getting laid. I don't think women under 35 feel adequate if they cannot sex from a middle class or better young guy on demand.

So if they're masturbating and your're young and [upper] middle class, they are ready to go. Status is EVERYTHING for women.

Long-legged beauties still strut about with their noses in their iPhones chasing Alphas, but all girls with ANYTHING wrong ( big hips, thinking they're short. etc) are having trouble finding non-intimidated guys THEIR AGE. And they generally won't compromise past 35 on age for ongoing lays with whom they're seen, which is what they want; so if you're under 35 these college towns look great to me.

My three roommates:
One is a frail but quite charming Indian-American, maybe 5'7", law school grad with no money at this point, waiting for his bar exam score, ( no accent, born here). He is screwing a couple white chicks, probably from law school connections, and the fact they cannot get white guys. He is a very skilled conversationalist and very bright, calm , and kind. This is a top 25 law school, and his parents went to college, so he is upper middle class really.

One is a white guy with strange wild staring eyes who is smart and has a girlfriend from Peru, long distance relationship, right now he is downstairs in the living room with a cute 7 American girl who I can tell wants to fuck him but he may be too beta to do it; however she looks so eager I think she's going to make the decision for him. He also has high-status university researcher parents, but walks around with grubby dirty feet and I'm pretty surprised he's in demand. But he's had the nerve to go to Peru, so that's pretty alpha right there.

The other guy is a hilariously stereotypical alpha, maybe 6'4" naturally muscular, musician, told me about his grandfather's vineyards, I think his family is pretty wealthy.
He never does his dishes but I'm too old to argue about that kind of crap. He has a girl who's a slightly chubby (7-8) but with a 9+ cover girl face and skin.

So if you're middle/upper middle class and young, and have SOMETHING on the ball, you're getting it around here( Northern California college town.) If you're a (NFL/NBA/NHL) sports fanatic typical American mainstream guy focused on cars, video gaming, and television stuff, with sort of a dull, poorly articulated conversational style, I think you'd be at a big disadvantage.

All these guys are presentable by chicks to professional parents; as they either have money on the way due to their careers, or via their families, and dudes are top 15% in intelligence, or in the case of the Alpha, maybe have hereditary millions. The law school guy also has a engineering degree and is probably in top 1-2% IQ.

I think a guy even with all the same qualifications over 40-45 need not apply. These girls have to show professional Daddy they got a [white guy] "catch", not an old guy.

Roosh could come here and do great, but maybe not with 9's.

Quote: (10-11-2012 12:53 PM)captaingeneric Wrote:  

Even on this forum, there's a whiff of desperation in the air. PUAs are heavily invested in their lifestyle (we are, in our own way, all trying to keep up with the Jones'), so few will outright admit it, but the scent is unmistakable. It's becoming increasingly difficult to pull in traditional night game venues, and many of us are feeling the crunch.

Are you counting the newbie forum?

Or maybe Juan Antonio, a game denialist troll (spinaroonie) and PUA hate member who has resurfaced?

The belief here is not that night game is easy. That's a reason why so many guys run day game. It's been like that since the forum started. It's just that a lot of guys have an agenda to "prove" you can't pull with a certain kind of game, without adding any value.

Let's take a look at you. You were banned for a week in September for insulting another member, and now you come out with accusation without any linked examples. What is your username on pua hate? I'm curious how many roosh threads you've started.

?

I like your stuff roosh. Heck, I've bought every book you've written. And this is the only pickup related forum I've ever been part of. I have no idea what "puahate" is. Why prove my point with such an overreaction?

Here's a thread on the very first page of this forum.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-16702.html

Smells like desperation to me, but maybe our definitions differ.

Did you read what I wrote?

Quote:Quote:

Or maybe Juan Antonio, a game denialist troll (spinaroonie) and PUA hate member who has resurfaced?

Then you link a thread by Juan Antonio. He didn't go out with his friends. He doesn't run game. He's a troll. Any other links you can provide to justify your argument?

I think there have been some pretty good points on this thread, I agree with a lot of what's been said, but I'll my 2 cents as well. It's almost 3 years since I first "discovered" game, got into this forum, bought BANG, etc., so I haven't been in it as long as other guys, but I do see certain trends that have been echoed before on the forum.

I definitely feel that women are more hypergamous than ever and going to continue in the future, they feel every right to date as many guys as they want, or "upgrade" to someone new if they are dating a guy seriously. They all want to date the guy who is 6 ft. 4 in, athletic, handsome, successful, etc., some how they all feel entitled to this, due to having a pussy. Even chicks who aren't that hot in the 6-7 range have inflate egos, because they are still easily able to fuck guys a point or two higher than them on the scale.

Women are trending towards selecting men predominantly based on looks, so guys who are in the top 10% of looks/height get the pick of the liter, while the guys who are close to average have to work like a dog for their scraps. Game will always be important and needed, but looks are a more tangible factor, guys go through hot streaks and cold spells, their game can drop off and isn't always consistent, a good looking guy who is attractive to women will always be handsome. Guys will work harder on improving themselves by going to the gym, dressing well, taking care of their skin/diet, etc., or they will simply give up and let themselves deteriorate George Costanza style.

I agree that P4P will only become more popular as well as traveling abroad for sex, both are already occurring and would only be more prevalent if it were legal, shit I estimate at least 25-30% of men would have sex solely with prostitutes if it were legal, simply due to their lack of game and other options, and the simple ease and simplicity of paying for it.

Night game is getting tougher, because more and more girls get off on male attention and the power trip they get from rejecting guys. Even if they aren't rejecting you, the average hot girl probably gets hit on 10 times in a night out and give her number out to 3-4 different guys. So you are always competing (for the hotties) with a bunch of other dudes, who may very well edge you out in any category, game, wealth, looks, status, etc. Not only are you competing with these other dudes, but the girl has so many options that she can sit back and be as picky as possible.

On top of that it is a numbers game!! Straight up, from my experience the times I did the best are when I was on a hot streak, my swag, confidence, charisma was 110% and chicks could feel my fire, the other times were when I straight up put in the work. Approaching like a motherfucking madman! Anyone who has read Roosh for years knows that he approaches like a beast, sometimes 10-15 in the same venue. Recently, I've just been over approaching, I put in so much time and effort making myself the best I can be, only to waste time hitting on flakey 7's who think they are God's gift to mankind.

I know if I had more passion and motivation, worked harder to approach more chicks, I'd have more likely chance for success, and maybe I will have the fire relit. But, when you only approach 2-3 girls in a night out, your chaces are much slimmer, unless you manage to hook a chick who is into you right off the bat. Remember when Roosh had a blog post a while back when he wrote "lacing up his shoes, for a night out, was like going to work for him, punching in for a 5 hour shift". To really be successful like that you need to apply that kind of ethic to approaching, which for most guys won't ever be a reality. Unfortunately, I don't feel like pick up and seduction should have to feel like a 9-5 job, but in this modern era it kind of is, unless you blow the competion out the water.

Just a thought on the history of The Game:
It's been going on a lot longer than the Internet has been around. Those of us old enough to remember the 70's can recall all those "How To Pick Up Girls" books advertised in the back of men's magazines. I found one at a used bookstore and it was mighty weak on execution; you'd find much better info here or just reading Master Roosh's posts.

Judging by this forum, alot of dudes are simply saying "No" to the entitled bitches in there town/country.
I guess I am a veteran but already we have seen a few members move to greener pastures and on there way to living the dream. I still am impressed how some members are so knowledgeable about countries like Thailand, Brazil and Phililpines.

In the future I think we will see a trend of men just saying NO, but sadly the trend seems to be that men are settling for low calibre women in the Anglosphere. Although marriage seems to be on the decline and women are becoming more miserable.

I've sensed change over the last ten years of game, but at the same time I have to wonder:

Has game changed that much or has gaming doctrine evolved as a result of market competition among pickup artists?

True enough, opinion openers ala Mystery are debased currency in the civilized world at this point... and man, they were effective until the mid 2000's. But how much of the development of game is simply the result of pickup gurus carving out their own niches and attempting to differentiate themselves from the pack?

Still effective in Asia but even the best PUAs here get locked down and married within a week. Of course thats an exaggeration but when you see how sweet and innocent the women are here contrasted to home, its very hard to resist. You don't need game in Asia, here women game you, however, it still works extremely well. The thing is, here after running game, you realize you can actually form a relationship' with a girl and become friends without the danger of her becoming bored and looking elsewhere. I'm quite proud to say that my girl is also my best friend. The only hard part about Asia is keeping your dick in your pants. My will power is put to the test daily.

Why anyone would want to stay in America and fight over the remnants of the old world is beyond me.

Bar game sucks in UK! Got another flakey number last night. SNLs are non-existent at most college bars. I will stick to daygame, and only go to bars that don't charge any cover, and no more night clubs.

Quote: (10-11-2012 09:53 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  

Still effective in Asia but even the best PUAs here get locked down and married within a week. Of course thats an exaggeration but when you see how sweet and innocent the women are here contrasted to home, its very hard to resist. You don't need game in Asia, here women game you, however, it still works extremely well. The thing is, here after running game, you realize you can actually form a relationship' with a girl and become friends without the danger of her becoming bored and looking elsewhere. I'm quite proud to say that my girl is also my best friend. The only hard part about Asia is keeping your dick in your pants. My will power is put to the test daily.

Why anyone would want to stay in America and fight over the remnants of the old world is beyond me.

Well, if your of average or above in looks and still have some youth and are socially active, girls will approach you in Asia. But if you want to shoot way out of your league, you definitely need some skills. For instance I've literally been in girly-bars filled with prostitutes and could not get laid, while in Thailand. Looks count, a lot! Even and especially there. If you are old and short and bald and ugly, you need game anywhere. And if you want to shoot WAY out of your league, you need game anywhere.

A lot of guys don't realize how the pay for play scene works in Thailand. The girls don't just go with anyone who has money. They tend to only go with guys that they actually have the mood to fuck.

Ya, you'll see some old fat guys with a whore, but take a look at the quality of the whore he's with. Not top shelf. Often over thirty and ugly.

I stay away from pay for play. But you can imagine if even the whores in Thailand won't flock to me, how much game is required to seduce pretty young students and shop managers and little massage girls, and keep them addicted to my cock when they get 10 offers a day? Some of us guys have to work for it - even in Thailand.

I think we need to differentiate what we mean by bar/night game. If you guys are hitting up places with 100s of people all in groups of 4 or more, then yes pulling from a place like that will be rough for even the best. Finding the right spots is more than half of the battle. Here's how I go about it.

I research a few spots that seem cool and I check them out. Usually I don't even plan on doing any pick up but sometimes I will. I'll stop by alone or with a friend for some food and a beer. I stay for a few hours and chill. I ask myself a few questions.

1) Are there any girls alone?
2) Are there any girls in pairs?
3) What sort of girls go there? Are their vibes similar to girls I pulled in the past?
4) I take a stroll around the venue like I'm a lost old man(thanks Roosh) and I see if any girls check me out.
5) Are there couches or any other spots that are conducive to isolation?
6) What about the competition? Are cold approaches being done or are the guys just herbs?
7) Do I know any guys who have successfully pulled from there? Have I successfully pulled from the place myself?
8) On average do most of the girls pass the boner test?
9) I start innocuous conversations, are the girls liking my vibe or are they blowing me out?

If you do the above you'll get a pretty good idea of how good the venue is to pulling. I'm not going to lie, this is labor intensive and you can waste hours on places that suck. But to the guys who say that they don't have the time or don't want to do this, my response is do you want to bang cute girls or sit on the forum complaining about how night game sucks?

Do you know the layout of your favorite spots in your town like the back of your hand? Do you know the peak hours? Can you describe the typical girl who goes there? If you meet a girl tonight do you know exactly where you'll bounce her and where to isolate?

If you can't answer those questions then it's probably not bar or night game it's you.

For example I know of two places within a block of each other. The first constantly has multiple pairs of girls and nurses who get off their shift and pound drinks alone. The second is a hang out spot filled with snobby college/grad students who all know each other. Which would you pick?

I still think the future of game is going to be in steroids/testosterone/bodybuilding. I can see it now: an underground group of gamers selling roids to betas so that they can enhance their lives as aesthetic alphas. Add in some minimal game lines and body language techniques and hey - pussy.

I am not sure on the future of game. Once they build really good sexbots, I can bet that clubs will be completely empty of men and the need for game will vanish.

Getting into weightlifting seems to be the easiest way of getting an edge over other guys. Id say the only thing that could potentially do you more good was getting into a combative sport as well. Chances are your training will get you an attractive build but not only that your confidence about being able to kick every other guys ass isnt going to be faked.

Anyone know of any dudes that are fucking awesome fighters yet at the same time are real friendly dudes? Chances are you respect them, everyone generally likes them and i'd imagine the majority of these guys arn't having a hard time getting pussy.

Georges st pierre would be an excellant example of one of these guys. I imagine the amount of pussy he's getting is off the charts. Iam not just talking about super star mma fighters here Iam sure you guys can think of plenty examples of guys you know from your real lives that fit that identity.

Actually not plenty, that combination is rare as fuck which is probably why guys like that kill it.

everything will go online/mobile. there will be plenty of stupid new niche website like nextdoor.com (with mobile versions of course) allowing people to meet/communicate with each other and set up dates by few clicks. people will get more and more lazy and comfortable and social skills will massively regress due to instant access to profiles and ability to accept/reject another person in a second without facing each other. exactly like online shopping.

people being surprised that someone called them instead of texting is first sign of this e-revolution.

and the natural consequence of this will be people hanging out in super fucking tight social circles practically impossible to penetrate from any kind of outsider. cold approach will die off. i can imagine people will go to venues to chill and drink with their friends and these venues will have a public profiles like twitter where people will be posting stupid messages to each other and commenting them from mobiles and deciding to talk to someone new face to face after interacting online first.

welcome to the future

Nothing much will change. Girls will go for good looking guys, high status guys, and guys who have game.

If you are ugly, have no social status and don't know how to excite women through conversation, it's gonna be tough out there.

The rich get richer, the poor get power.

Take action! Make yourself as attractive as possible, carve out a niche, learn game skill. Otherwise, you will be fighting and begging for scraps. Learn game or die alone. Sadly, that is the reality!

Use technology to your advantage. Post good pictures of yourself, post pictures of yourself with cute girls, have funny status updates and posts.

Game or be gamed. The choice is yours..

You want p*ssy. You gotta go out and get it!

It's going to become more important to actually be in the top 10% of men, according to female preference. Not just to have top 10% of attitude and irrational confidence, but more of the other traits that women also judge men by as well.

I gave up on trying to find girls in Bali about 10 years ago. Two many big handsome young Australian surfer dudes there. So I get my 10% on by going to more out of the way places.

There are still plenty of out of the way places, but they all have the internet, so even in little villages she'll have some online "boyfriend".

Game that is focused on one night stands might continue to focus on bluster, but from what I've seen of what happens with guys who expat to Thailand, after a few years you get bored with variety. Most guys also want other things that only women can give them, such as bonding and intimacy with a mate. With a little sumpn sumpn on the side if they need it. But it's very rare for a man to not eventually want more than mere variety.

Judging by that, I'd say game will go the same way, and the focus will eventually shift towards being capable of managing fulfilling LTRs from a male dominant position, with hand and with options, and with the woman being the doting and devoted servant.

But those men will work on more than just irrational self confidence - they'll work on being in the top 10% of as many areas as they possibly can. They'll consider being in that position both a hobby and an occupation.

Elite relationship game will be limited to guys who are serious about competing at an elite level. And irrational self confidence alone won't compete. Nor will top 1% day or night game skills.

Game will mature in the direction that 90% of men mature towards. Towards managing a mate.

This is why I want to get into fighting. Iam going to be training, travelling the world and chances are have more interesting tales than most of the other men in the room. Also the confidence that comes from just knowing you could kick every other guys ass in the room cant be underestimated.

Anyone remember in school if you were hanging about with kids with a year or 2 below who you didnt consider a threat in the slightest. How did you feel and how did you act?

Anyone remember in school if you were hanging about with kids with a year or 2 above you, who could have easily kicked your ass. How did you feel and how did you act?

Quote: (10-11-2012 05:39 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I definitely feel that women are more hypergamous than ever and going to continue in the future, they feel every right to date as many guys as they want, or "upgrade" to someone new if they are dating a guy seriously. They all want to date the guy who is 6 ft. 4 in, athletic, handsome, successful, etc., some how they all feel entitled to this, due to having a pussy.

There seems to be some consternation on here about the fact that women want to get the best guys they can. I don't understand why. We all, as men,want the hottest women out there and learn game in order to overcome certain inadequacies such as lack of fame or wealth or looks etc. If a man who is a 6 bangs a 9 we say "awesome work!" but when a woman has the same desire to bang a man who is an athlete or handsome or more successful to her some people act outraged. What do you expect,women to get wet at the idea of banging ugly dudes or unsuccessful failures?!

I feel sorry for the Americans on here because judging by a lot of the embittered posts on here your women must be fucking awful. I mean, really fucking awful.

Quote: (10-12-2012 03:35 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  

We all, as men,want the hottest women out there and learn game in order to overcome certain inadequacies such as lack of fame or wealth or looks etc.

Exactly. I'm very picky. Ridiculously picky. I deliberately shoot way out of my league, and will just keep trying and trying until I get what I want, because nothing else works for me. How is that any different than any overly entitled woman? I know what rocks my boat. I can't blame anyone for trying.

What gets me is when men deign to try to explain to women what they really want. Women DO what they really want. If they are doing it, that's what they want. One year of alpha is worth three of pining away for him.

And they have their timing down pretty well when it comes to seeing the wall approaching and settling. It's just an emotional desire for justice and retribution for them rejecting us when we were in our early twenties when we hope they die alone with cats. I've never met a tramp who couldn't marry when she wanted to. There is always someone willing to put a ring on it. Even if she's pumped out a few kids by a few fathers.

So anyway, I don't begrudge the girls for playing the same game I do - shoot WAY out of their league, for as long as possible.

That's what I want, and it's obviously what they want.

Judge a girl by her actions, remember. That's what she wants.

@ xsplat, how often are you getting laid and what are you considering girls that are way out of your league? If most guys lived with that mindset they'd get no where.

I personally believe standards are earned. I also believe they are fluid. If i'am banging 7s and 8s i'am gonna feel pretty shitty if i decide i'll try bang that low 6. See why that is, I have become used to the idea of banging higher quality girls.

Howerver if you go through a dry spell your standards adapt or you fall deeper into scarcity, your behaviour no matter how hard you try to fake it will reek of desperation. I dont care how good your game is, if your not getting laid reguraly it's going to effect your results. Hence why we have terms like good runs and dry spells. Read roosh's "dead bat in paraguay" to see how this an effect your results. Mind you his stomach parasites didnt half help him out either.