Out of interest: why are people calling for the end of the Schengen visa? It gives you the opportunity to visit loads of countries with one visa,what's the problem?

Greeks are natural gamblers.We are going to play the whole Greece and euro fate on poker.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-21...-lies.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/2...9820120522

Combine this with Balkan power and the dynamite nature of the region and you get an idea of what is going to happen.Armaggedon,civil war you name it.

Why are Europeans being so weak and indecisive? This crisis has been dragging on for so long.

In the short term, the USD is rising against several East/Central European currencies that I follow.
In the long term, this will hurt everyone.

Quote: (05-22-2012 08:23 AM)Spartan Wrote:  

Why are Europeans being so weak and indecisive? This crisis has been dragging on for so long.

In the short term, the USD is rising against several East/Central European currencies that I follow.
In the long term, this will hurt everyone.

Indecisive about what exactly?

Same with pound, rising well against many currencies, but a strong pound is not good for the economy right now.

Quote: (05-22-2012 08:46 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote: (05-22-2012 08:23 AM)Spartan Wrote:  

Why are Europeans being so weak and indecisive? This crisis has been dragging on for so long.

In the short term, the USD is rising against several East/Central European currencies that I follow.
In the long term, this will hurt everyone.

Indecisive about what exactly?

They should resolve this issue.You've got pro-austerity Germany but other countries think pro-growth .Then changes in French, Greek govts and along with it changes in the austerity position.

The Greeks signed a bailout agreement but now want to re-negotiate the terms..

It seems like the whole thing is fluctuating in many ways and there is no central leadership to the Union.


Well, package holidays to Greece are really cheap right now. Lots of deals on travel sites such as TravelZoo and others.

I find it crazy that nobody even questions the fact that a tiny nation that depends on olives and tourism with a economy and GDP marginally bigger than Connecticut's. This has been a war in Greece and its people. For all it's faults the majority of the debt is not there's and is recycled private junk and CDS's rolled into the Countries books. The EU crisis was a roll of the dice from London and New York. If the Euro flood it automatically places more importance and stress on the Pound and USD and their ability to pump more cash into their comatose economies.

What you see in Greece now will flow to the test of the PIGS. People always get desperate and elect radicals and fringe parties during great economic upheavals. The Greeks need to grow a pair and tell the German and French backs whom are in trouble with these toxic bonds to go fuck them selves. Nations go bankrupt or freeze debt all the time. How many Latin American Countries have done so? Nobody remembers Argentina and its debt mess a decade ago?, Iceland refused to pay of illegal private bank debt and is now largely back to growth, Russia in 1998? I believe all is well with one of the largest economies on earth. This is all just nickel and diming the weak. The end will mean the UK and US break up its largest competition in the currency markets.

Too much hypocritical talk in the media. Retirement ages an such are used as herrings. The welfare net of Greece is a small portion of its standing debt. Greece has been around for thousands of years, it's people will have to suffer for a while but it will better of in the end telling the mega banks to go fuck them selves.

The point is that Germans have understood that the more shitty the South gets the better it is for them that is why they press for austerity measures.Now German bonds do not even give interest they have negative interest rates(you pay if you have them) because they are the safest worldwide.So why should they issue eurobonds and lose this great advantage?Also why issue new euros and cause inflation since stable euro strengthens German economy?They get the devaluation needed for their exports by the PIIGs extra consumerism which causes euro to decline and PIIGs to buy more German products.So by controlling EFSF and German state Germans have all the aces in their hands.They can shutter and suffocate anyone who tries to oppose them.

Now Greeks are so enraged that they prefer to risk pulling out the plug and sink themselves with everyone else down.The same like Germans enjoy the suffering of the others and for sure get hedonism when the ''incompetent'' South suffers and pays for its sins.
I am sure though that Germans possess hidden resources and can afford to pay the 1 trillion needed if Greece pulls out of euro.In this way they hope as well to cause lethal damage to the speculators who have bet against the euro.In this war noone gives exact numbers.My guess is that Greek politicians have again become recipients of faulty ''friendly'' information like always since both sides(Anglosaxons and Germans) exploit their obvious ignorance,fear and moral weakness.

The Germans are masters in bluffing.For example during WW2 they bluffed by flying the stukas with sirens in full without any ammunition.The problem is that you never risk getting out predicting the stuka has no ammunition because if it has it will be lethal.Hitler told the Czechs if they did not surrender within 24 hours he would bomb Prague to rambles.Czechs could not risk losing Prague and so Hitler got hold of it without any bullet.This type of German blackmail is very effcient and they use it when they smell weakness especially moral weakness and corruption which they take advantage of.So our politicians made a lot of unnecessary concessions during former bail out negotiations although they had bombs in hand(eg declare of disorderly bankruptcy ASAP).

Now the suggestion is to play bluff against the German bluff and provoke them to do what they threaten to that is to cut off any money supply.The Germans say you will die if we do that,the whole state will collapse,ours say dare to that(the more bold ones).This scares everyone off.The point is that radicalism has now grown to a degree that many people do not care if there is drachma or euro since in every case they will be unemployed.They also do not care much about european fate in general.It is an accumulation of anger and pressure and noone really knows how this terror film is going to end.
Germans always claim they are now much more protected thatn they were 2.5 years ago when the bail out started and this for sure does not help their friends position in the interior of Greece.It does not also help that they do not give their friends any real material support promise for Greece apart from threatening words.

Quote: (05-22-2012 09:02 AM)Spartan Wrote:  

Quote: (05-22-2012 08:46 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Indecisive about what exactly?

They should resolve this issue.

Wow that's brilliant.

There's no Ctrl+Z on just saying "fuck it!" and cutting Greece off. There's no precedence for this in history. There are no guidebooks. You can't put the paste back in the tube, etc... While it is desirable to see some resolution to this mess you can make sure that every possible venue will be ventured before cancelling payments.

Personally I think the Greek people's irresponsibility has got themselves in this mess. They have been given a fair chance and squandered it. As a result I'm perfectly fine with cutting them off and making them sweat it.

BUT, I AM NOT THE PERSON MAKING THAT DECISION. I wouldn't ever want to be that person and it's perfectly understandable that they are exploring every option.

Quote: (05-22-2012 10:51 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote: (05-22-2012 09:02 AM)Spartan Wrote:  

Quote: (05-22-2012 08:46 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Indecisive about what exactly?

They should resolve this issue.

Wow that's brilliant.

There's no Ctrl+Z on just saying "fuck it!" and cutting Greece off. There's no precedence for this in history. There are no guidebooks. You can't put the paste back in the tube, etc... While it is desirable

BUT, I AM NOT THE PERSON MAKING THAT DECISION. I wouldn't ever want to be that person and it's perfectly understandable that they are exploring every option.

This sounds disturbingly rational. Don't you think there should be an aggressive, macho man, oversimplified solution for all conflict?

Quote: (05-22-2012 03:48 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

Greeks are natural gamblers.We are going to play the whole Greece and euro fate on poker.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-21...-lies.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/2...9820120522

Combine this with Balkan power and the dynamite nature of the region and you get an idea of what is going to happen.Armaggedon,civil war you name it.

Armageddon? Isn't that overreacting a bit? The Greeks will create the Olive-Oil Fusion Bomb and The Serbs will develop Bicep Bunker Busters, while Butthezed Bernajjakkkee videotapes orgies as he prances through the Greek Islanszzz ? ( Apologies to GBFM)

Hopefully Greeks has plenty of food and retsina and will not wreck the welfare of the country.

Yes,it is called Drachmageddon.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/1...HW20120518

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/world/....html?_r=1

Quote: (05-22-2012 04:52 PM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

Yes,it is called Drachmageddon.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/1...HW20120518

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/world/....html?_r=1

I see on further reading you have a point; it says they import 40% of their food.

I still never believe the horror spins-- news media has to SELL above all else, including above accuracy.

Some interesting facts:
-How were accounts tricked to allow Greece enter the Euro zone? With the buying of Swaps.
-Who made the operation: Goldman Sachs.
-Responsible of the operation: Mario Draghi.
-Greek responsible: Lucas Papademos, then governor of the Bank of Greece (central bank).
-Current post of Draghi: President of the European Central Bank.
-Post of Papademos until May 16th: Prime Minister of Greece.

bang a rich country or a poor one?

an iteresting discussion i saw on a survivalist board. it's extreme, but it begs ther question: bang more in a rich country ?







recreational sex with random strangers is going to be a whole lot less common in a SHTF condition... You’re going to be way the hell too busy just trying to stay alive, and protecting what you do have."


“I can assure you that most people are having sex for enjoyment, NOT BABIES.”

-- "In our current state of civilization, sure. It’s easy to chase orgasms when you’re fed 3x a day, have a warm, dry place to sleep, and your basic needs are basically taken care of.

Now let’s look at a post-SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation… where eating once a day is going to be an iffy proposition for most folks. Where satisfying your own basic needs (and defending the means to do it from others who want it worse than you do) will occupy most of your time.

I really don’t know how else to say it, but if things really do get that bad, any spare time you find yourself with will be busily spent catching up on sleep, or patrolling, or repairing something, or… Getting some nookie will be pretty low on the list of things to do at that point, yanno?"
what do y'all think ???

Quote: (05-22-2012 04:59 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Quote: (05-22-2012 04:52 PM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

Yes,it is called Drachmageddon.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/1...HW20120518

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/world/....html?_r=1

I see on further reading you have a point; it says they import 40% of their food.

I still never believe the horror spins-- news media has to SELL above all else, including above accuracy.

Seven months since the flurry of alarmist posts here and no one's starving except the odd pensioner and no one's seriously planning on dropping the Euro that I've heard of. People TALK about it but no one is planning to actually DO it. ; I doubt very much hotel prices have gone down much at all.

As IKE said in his post above seven months ago, there's always a cataclysm- tomorrow-- But they need you to buy their newspaper today.

Seven months and counting, no "drachmageddon" as Kamaki mentioned. The problem with armageddon pronouncements is they are always "right around the corner" and when you start to get old you realize they really are quite rare.

When people talk about the bad things that are "going to happen"'; what I've noticed is they generally do it as a sort of faulty argument against something they don't like. e.g., " If all the welfare people keep at it we'll all be broke" or "If we keep spending on the military like this we're doomed. "

You could call it argument based on the future. Always very weak without very very clear things already happening, not "just about" to happen.

One thing that has already happened is depopulation of certain countrysides in EU countries . Cheaper real estate?

Quote: (11-19-2012 09:35 PM)deepcov3r Wrote:  

Quote: (05-22-2012 04:59 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Quote: (05-22-2012 04:52 PM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

Yes,it is called Drachmageddon.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/1...HW20120518

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/world/....html?_r=1

I see on further reading you have a point; it says they import 40% of their food.

I still never believe the horror spins-- news media has to SELL above all else, including above accuracy.

Seven months since the flurry of alarmist posts here and no one's starving except the odd pensioner and no one's seriously planning on dropping the Euro that I've heard of. People TALK about it but no one is planning to actually DO it. ; I doubt very much hotel prices have gone down much at all.

As IKE said in his post above seven months ago, there's always a cataclysm- tomorrow-- But they need you to buy their newspaper today.

Seven months and counting, no "drachmageddon" as Kamaki mentioned. The problem with armageddon pronouncements is they are always "right around the corner" and when you start to get old you realize they really are quite rare.

When people talk about the bad things that are "going to happen"'; what I've noticed is they generally do it as a sort of faulty argument against something they don't like. e.g., " If all the welfare people keep at it we'll all be broke" or "If we keep spending on the military like this we're doomed. "

You could call it argument based on the future. Always very weak without very very clear things already happening, not "just about" to happen.

One thing that has already happened is depopulation of certain countrysides in EU countries . Cheaper real estate?

I agree.

Sites like Zerohedge are the worst offenders of this. They preach fire and brimstone, financial debt-driven armegeddon every hour of the day & night, but their record of actual time-accurate predictions is lousy.

You'd do better throwing darts at a board.

As most people who invest their own money have realized, macro-driven trends and prognostications are very different from investments that make money for you now.

@Greek Kamaki

I don't think what you're saying is correct regarding Germany or Germans.
Angela Merkel is supportive of the Euro Zone, but she understands, that every Country is responsible fore there own economy so if you spend more than you make you have to learn to cut costs and save Money.

People here are not that happy if there tax Money goes to a country that has wasted Money and has a more relaxed Lifestyle.

In my opinion it would be best for Germany to leave the Euro Zone, but I don't think they will do that.

What is good about the euro crisis is that prices are dropping in Europe ore are going to drop in the future. So from an Investment standpoint you might get things undervalued.

Plus more and more people will become entrepreneurs out of necessity and more Employers will become Self employed or work as Freelancers.

I think it's going to very exciting, what happens in the next 5-10 Years in Europe.

The German economy is what the rest of the eurozone should be aiming for, but it won't, the northern europeans have a different lifestyle. Germany escaped the financial chaos due to it's impressive bank structures and of course people who are willing to pay tax.

[/quote]

Personally I think the Greek people's irresponsibility has got themselves in this mess. They have been given a fair chance and squandered it. As a result I'm perfectly fine with cutting them off and making them sweat it.

[/quote]

How exactly were we irresponsible?Please let me know.

Quote: (11-20-2012 07:50 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

The German economy is what the rest of the eurozone should be aiming for, but it won't, the northern europeans have a different lifestyle. Germany escaped the financial chaos due to it's impressive bank structures and of course people who are willing to pay tax.

And of course their unilateral rejection of debts during their unification in 1990 that all of Europe agreed to and the same in 2005.Dont praise their system too much.If it wasnt for the Marshall plan and 2 debt refusals they would be marginally better than Poland now.

Quote: (11-20-2012 07:37 AM)SelfPaid Wrote:  

@Greek Kamaki

I don't think what you're saying is correct regarding Germany or Germans.
Angela Merkel is supportive of the Euro Zone, but she understands, that every Country is responsible fore there own economy so if you spend more than you make you have to learn to cut costs and save Money.

People here are not that happy if there tax Money goes to a country that has wasted Money and has a more relaxed Lifestyle.

In my opinion it would be best for Germany to leave the Euro Zone, but I don't think they will do that.

What is good about the euro crisis is that prices are dropping in Europe ore are going to drop in the future. So from an Investment standpoint you might get things undervalued.

Plus more and more people will become entrepreneurs out of necessity and more Employers will become Self employed or work as Freelancers.

I think it's going to very exciting, what happens in the next 5-10 Years in Europe.

What I wrote was about the situation 5 monts ago when the Greek ruling class had a last chance to reverse the situation.Now they are doomed for sure they have no chance.The conflict between Germany and IMF regarded whether Greece should declare bankruptcy now after US elections or it should be delayed till after German elections.

Depends. I dont think the euro de-valuing would be a good thing.

Greece exiting the euro would be good though. Greece will become super cheap for travellers and suddenly Greek exports become very affordable which will boost their industry and might help them get back on their feet.

Personally I think the Greek people's irresponsibility has got themselves in this mess. They have been given a fair chance and squandered it. As a result I'm perfectly fine with cutting them off and making them sweat it.

[/quote]

How exactly were we irresponsible?Please let me know.
[/quote]

Love how these national debates end up in people taking things personally.

Quote:Quote:

The study found that self-employed Greeks evaded a staggering £22.4billion of tax in 2009 – almost half the size of the country’s deficit in 2008 and a third of the shortfall in 2009.

The chief offenders were doctors, engineers, private tutors, accountants, people in financial services and lawyers, according to the report by economists at Booth School of Business at the University of Chicago.

But in 2009 it raised just £78billion of tax as the self-employed hid large chunks of their incomes.

The report – entitled Tax Evasion Across Industries: Soft Credit Evidence From Greece – estimated that on average the true income of the self-employed in Greece is 1.92 times higher than their reported income.

25% of GDP was tax evasion in 2009. That is an astounding amount no matter which country it is, nevermind one in the European single currency.

The sad thing is the Average greek worked the most hours in Europe according to the OECD. It's just that a large number of your fellow countryman neglected to fill out tax return forms and pay that money into your government.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155304

Maybe you guys just need to exit the Euro and return to the Drachma.