The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Printable Version
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The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - cybermutiny - 05-20-2012
I'm watching the Greek economic malaise very closely these days. Not because I'm worried about my financial portfolio, not because I'm a news junkie, and not because I'm terrified about a possible economic contagion spreading to the rest of the world. I'm watching it in the selfish hope that the European Union will eventually collapse, bringing the high cost of traveling to these countries back down to a very affordable, long-term jobless vagabond kind of price.
I know what you're thinking: I'm a monster, I'm ignorant, and this economic bomb is going to harm me just as much as the EU. What kind of vile, filthy being could ever hope for such a thing? Perhaps I'm as bad as you think I am.
Yet wouldn't it be simply marvelous to cruise around Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Ireland, at rock-bottom prices the likes of which would put Southeast Asia's budget travel circuit to shame? Just imagine cruising around the Greek islands, visiting wine vineyards in Italy, and partying it up in Spain while paying next to nothing.
I'm always wary of the media. I always suspect they're overhyping stories so that they can sell their vile advertisements, make their money, and feed their monkey. But this time it seems like this whole doomsday thing has legs. Greece is burning money like a champ, and they are but a trifle compared to some other whales in the equation.
So what do you all think?
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Hooligan Harry - 05-20-2012
Lol.
The dudes exploiting the stories to sell their vile advertising are monsters. The dudes exploiting collapsing economies and unemployment so they can travel cheaply, not so much.
Its going to make the GFC look like a tiddly winks. The GFC was private sector banking collapse, this is a sovereign debt crisis. When governments go bankrupt countries and societies tend to implode, esp ones addicted to entitlements and welfare. Its not just people out of work and having to drop their pants on price bro. Its not about favorable exchange rates. You are talking essential shortages, rampant crime, in many cases civilian on civilian violence that can escalate to civil or regional war, especially in a place like Greece.
Global recession will last years if the Euro tanks
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Blunt - 05-20-2012
Europeans have become a bit too uppity with this 'Union' of theirs.
The problem is every time I get excited and hear that Greece is finally done, at the last minute they get more money.
I'd like to see parity restored with the dollar, and separate visa agreements for each country with the US.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Roosh - 05-20-2012
We have to be careful about wishing for economic collapse. The easiest girls to lay are middle class who can afford to go out and can focus on sex instead of how they're going to survive. For our purposes, the best we can wish for is a dissolution of both the euro and schengen. Costs will be at least 25% cheaper in some of the weaker countries and we can stay much longer in the region.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Deluge - 05-20-2012
Skirt lengths are shorter when the economy is prosperous. 1 2
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - makher - 05-20-2012
The currency union isn't going anywhere. The best we can realistically hope for is that the euro weakens significantly against the dollar and pound. Europe for ten percent off as opposed to Argentine Europe. This occurred in 2008. But, if you follow the news, you see the policy discussion is evolving toward growth. If Europe shifts from austerity toward the growth-oriented policies that most everyone except Germany is now pushing, we will see 3-4% annual inflation (rising prices) across the euro zone. We will see if Germany and the ECB shift.
The Schengen scourge is here to stay. The mood across Europe is for more restrictive regulation of its borders. We need serious discussion of credible strategies for remaining indefinitely, legally.
The real question is what Greece itself will look like (costs and socially) if it is forced out of the currency union.
Also, I am curious what the romantic scene is like in Spain right now; unemployment among young people is near 50%. Are economically adrift women harder or easier to lay? For sure there is less disposable income for nights out. But do they then gravitate toward men of means? Are Spanish men emasculated and demoralized by years of high unemployment?
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Deb Auchery - 05-20-2012
I'm glad there is the Schengen agreement, what gives an American for example, the right to travel to Europe and stay as long as he desires?, is that possible in America?, nope.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - makher - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 05:29 AM)Deb Auchery Wrote:
I'm glad there is the Schengen agreement, what gives an American for example, the right to travel to Europe and stay as long as he desires?, is that possible in America?, nope.
Countries like Spain would fall off the face of the earth without tourism. Tourism is an economic boon. This is the reason the UK allows tourists to come and stay for six months in a year. When you allow people to stay for longer periods of time they buy real estate and contribute to the economy in other ways. Tourism is also a cultural plus. The common tourist leaves less ignorant than he came...
I don't know how long Europeans can stay in America, but whatever it is, it's not long enough. Senseless to be possessive about one's continent. It seriously sounds foolish. It's not about anyone's "right," it's about benefits accruing to everyone.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Hooligan Harry - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 05:08 AM)makher Wrote:
The currency union isn't going anywhere. The best we can realistically hope for is that the euro weakens significantly against the dollar and pound. Europe for ten percent off as opposed to Argentine Europe. This occurred in 2008. But, if you follow the news, you see the policy discussion is evolving toward growth. If Europe shifts from austerity toward the growth-oriented policies that most everyone except Germany is now pushing, we will see 3-4% annual inflation (rising prices) across the euro zone. We will see if Germany and the ECB shift.
The Schengen scourge is here to stay. The mood across Europe is for more restrictive regulation of its borders. We need serious discussion of credible strategies for remaining indefinitely, legally.
The real question is what Greece itself will look like (costs and socially) if it is forced out of the currency union.
Also, I am curious what the romantic scene is like in Spain right now; unemployment among young people is near 50%. Are economically adrift women harder or easier to lay? For sure there is less disposable income for nights out. But do they then gravitate toward men of means? Are Spanish men emasculated and demoralized by years of high unemployment?
The Mediterranean as a whole is quite different in that even though its westernised, its own cultures are so strong that many of the ills we experience never hit. For example, divorce rates are far far lower, and even though people separate the state is not handing shit over to women at a rate of knots.
Also, confidence in the Euro is premature. Almost a trillion Euro needs to come from somewhere just to recapitalise banks. On top of it, default might actually suit Spain given their problems are related to property as much as anything else. I personally think the Euro is fucked, and the only reason its being held onto is because Germany and France need parity in currency to maintain their export advantage long term.
Greece itself will be better off long term, but short term who knows. Massive inflation, commodity and food shortages, civil strife. Its all coming if they default. I feel sorry for the Greeks. Corrupt politicians and Goldmans sank the place, dragging the average Greek along with them while they made a fortune. It certainly does not help that they are welfare dependent and tend to avoid taxes themselves, but the average guy on the street is being done hard too.
I have found Italian and Spanish women some of the toughest to lay, everywhere I have been. Even first generation here in Aus.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Blunt - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 05:29 AM)Deb Auchery Wrote:
I'm glad there is the Schengen agreement, what gives an American for example, the right to travel to Europe and stay as long as he desires?, is that possible in America?, nope.
Well for starters, America is one nation. Europe is not a nation. It's a continent. If Europeans would like to, they could go to Canada, America, and then Mexico without being penalized. Just like in South America, you can stay on the continent indefinitely if you so choose by going to different countries.
Also, America pumped millions of dollars into the reconstruction of their countries after WWII, so yeah, I think they should look favorably on American passports.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Greek kamaki - 05-20-2012
Greece yes,it will collapse.Europe as a whole will not collapse.Euro will become stronger when Greece gets out.Anyway I will try to explain what is happening.The main battle regards the 1.4 trillion euro of German exports.Many players want a portion of that(markets,speculators,banks,states) and Greece is the battleground between the Anglosphere and the Germanic world.The Germans are going to prevail in this war because it is mostly economic and they have hidden resources.Greece will sink and be destroyed as the battleground.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - el mechanico - 05-20-2012
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Vicious - 05-20-2012
Strange topic. Seeing possibilities in a large economic meltdown in the continent where a majority of the world's capital still reside (by a hair but still) is like hoping to lose weight by cutting off a leg. The downsides are going to outweigh the ups by far.
Your money will last far in Greece these days but what's the point when people are not partying, ferries to the islands aren't running, robberies/scams are peaking.
A Euro meltdown is not going to stop at European borders. it will have Americans/Brazilians/Chinese losing jobs all the same as their exports to Europe will dwindle.
Quote: (05-20-2012 07:57 AM)Blunt Wrote:
Quote: (05-20-2012 05:29 AM)Deb Auchery Wrote:
I'm glad there is the Schengen agreement, what gives an American for example, the right to travel to Europe and stay as long as he desires?, is that possible in America?, nope.
Well for starters, America is one nation. Europe is not a nation. It's a continent. If Europeans would like to, they could go to Canada, America, and then Mexico without being penalized. Just like in South America, you can stay on the continent indefinitely if you so choose by going to different countries.
Also, America pumped millions of dollars into the reconstruction of their countries after WWII, so yeah, I think they should look favorably on American passports.
Ah, so you're not really seeking equal terms for travellers, you are advocating special treatment for Americans - and not giving this is "uppity"? With the same logic the US should be giving preferential status to French, Danish and Swedish passport holders which gave immense aid to the rebels during the American war for Independence. You could go back and forth forever trying to list and weigh these kind of favours over the centuries.
The USA is one of toughest nations in the world to get into and staying for extended time periods, particular since 9/11, so I don't see a lot of rational thought to this argument. Still I understand why those restrictions exist for the US.
On a philosophical level I would love to get rid of Schengen but you have to understand why it is there. It has greatly aided the European countries in tracking criminal activity, controlling immigrant movements and easing travel for native Europeans. I mean it's a point it's there and I can promise you that it isn't to try and keep tourism/money out.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Rurik - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 04:10 AM)Roosh Wrote:
We have to be careful about wishing for economic collapse. The easiest girls to lay are middle class who can afford to go out and can focus on sex instead of how they're going to survive.
I don't agree with this. My experience in SEA goes against this. Banging poor ass girls is basically the norm. Some worked multiple jobs, but still wanted to bang. Maybe southern europe would be different.
I think the OP is getting a little ahead of himself if he thinks Southern Europe or EE is going to get WORSE than southeast asia.
If the Euro collapsed, and say, the dollar strengthened as a result, we could be entering into a good period of pussy chasing in many parts of Europe.
Italy, Spain, and Portugal have huge amounts of debt. They're basically fucked.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Blunt - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 08:59 AM)Vicious Wrote:
Ah, so you're not really seeking equal terms for travellers, you are advocating special treatment for Americans - and not giving this is "uppity"? With the same logic the US should be giving preferential status to French, Danish and Swedish passport holders which gave immense aid to the rebels during the American war for Independence. You could go back and forth forever trying to list and weigh these kind of favours over the centuries.
The USA is one of toughest nations in the world to get into and staying for extended time periods, particular since 9/11, so I don't see a lot of
On a philosophical level I would love to get rid of Schengen but you have to understand why it is there. It has greatly aided the European rational thought to this argument. Still I understand why those restrictions exist for the US.
countries in tracking criminal activity, controlling immigrant movements and easing travel for native Europeans. I mean it's a point it's there and I can promise you that it isn't to try and keep tourism/money out.
Yeah, my uppity comment was tongue-in-cheek. We could go down that route, but really I wouldn't mind if restrictions were eased on Europeans entering America. I don't know how difficult it is now.
If we're talking only about American and European travelers here, comparing America's restrictions to Europe's isn't quite fair since Europe is made up of so many countries. A better comparison would be to Russia, since both countries are very large and don't give you a whole lot of time to stay.
Whether it's for Americans or anyone who can currently be granted a Schengen visa I think it would be great to have a system where there are separate visa agreements for foreigners, and maintain free movement for EU citizens.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Rurik - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 08:59 AM)Vicious Wrote:
Strange topic. Seeing possibilities in a large economic meltdown in the continent where a majority of the world's capital still reside (by a hair but still) is like hoping to lose weight by cutting off a leg. The downsides are going to outweigh the ups by far.
A Euro meltdown is not going to stop at European borders. it will have Americans/Brazilians/Chinese losing jobs all the same as their exports to Europe will dwindle.
If the Euro scare increases, this will likely be good for the American dollar, since the Euro and the Dollar are the two main reserve currencies. People will move their money into dollars if the Euro breaks. Back in 2007, greenspan predicted the Euro would replace the dollar as the main reserve currency by 2020, but I doubt that will happen given what's happening now.
It's definitely possible America could benefit, though economics is a bitch of a topic to wrap your mind around. Inflation of the dollar could also happen.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Vicious - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 09:28 AM)Rurik Wrote:
If the Euro scare increases, this will likely be good for the American dollar, since the Euro and the Dollar are the two main reserve currencies. People will move their money into dollars if the Euro breaks. Back in 2007, greenspan predicted the Euro would replace the dollar as the main reserve currency by 2020, but I doubt that will happen given what's happening now.
It's definitely possible America could benefit, though economics is a bitch of a topic to wrap your mind around. Inflation of the dollar could also happen.
This is the kind of short-sightedness that's downright hazardous. An economic collapse does not happen in a vacuum. I don't know what you do but even if you are in the US you might be affected. Remember Lehman Brothers? This had far-reaching effects all over the world. A Euro meltdown would most likely be worse.
A strong dollar is not necessarily good for the dollar (The Yen and on the opposite side the Yuan are examples of this). What you are thinking of is a good exchange rate. This is however not something to equate with a good financial standing, and won't do you any good at all if cutbacks due a meltdown puts you out of a job.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Rurik - 05-20-2012
Well, I don't see my thinking as dangerous. I'm not really HOPING it will happen, but hey, america could possibly benefit. Much of europe was bombed and destroyed during world war II, and this helped america subsequently from an economic standpoint. Now I really wish that war hadn't happened, believe me.
It all comes down to Italy. If italy defaults, the Euro is most likely fucked.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - iknowexactly - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 12:27 AM)cybermutiny Wrote:
I'm watching the Greek economic malaise ....
Yet wouldn't it be simply marvelous to cruise around Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Ireland, at rock-bottom prices the likes of which would put Southeast Asia's budget travel circuit to shame? Just imagine cruising around the Greek islands, visiting wine vineyards in Italy, and partying it up in Spain while paying next to nothing.
So what do you all think?
You really wouldn't want the living standards of Europeans to go down that much. A change that extreme would create psychological turbulence which would make things too dicey. Remember that Nazi Germany came out of the Depression/Post WW1 era. D
Demagogues seek outsiders to blame to consolidate power ( Hitler/Jews; Stalin/Upper Class; Tutsi/Hutu.. ad infinitum.) Guess what we Murkans would be...
There are people who cruise around Europe without financial strain.. they're called rich, or at least upper middle class. Even I could live there as a professional working maybe two days a week, combined with my passive income. I couldn't just cruise around but I have stronger attachment circuitry; I don't want to make a whole new set of friends/lovers/arts collaborators every few months.
People say you've got to save up hundreds of thousands to ditch the Murkabeests, but I've been quite comfortable in a smaller city in Giant Unsanitary Refrigerator Shithole on $1100/month plus some savings for months I want to buy a new camera, etc. I don't waste money on booze, though. You want conspicuous luxury, all costs quadruple-- you're on your own there.
Annuities that pay that 1k or 20 years are 160K USD. They're considered bad investments, just an example. That's not THAT hard to save up in 10 years if you don't have child support, and workat at least semi-skilled labor.
Don't let them keep you on the treadmill any longer than you have to; you can never get a single minute of it back.
But them in Murka, every day you go whale-watching for free!!
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - rudebwoy - 05-20-2012
If Europe goes down the rest of the world goes as well, which is something I would not want to happen.
It is looking like they would cut Greece from the Union and it is business as usual, unfortunately they are saying Germany and France will go into a recession because they have laid out the most money to support Greece.
However, I get the feeling that alot more countries have been using money to support Greece and keep them afloat.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Greek kamaki - 05-20-2012
If European economy sinks it will drag down American economy as well.Only the mega rich will be benefited who have enough deposits to buy everything when prices get down.The average traveller will be harmed.He will struggle for the essentials of living let alone travelling.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - michelin - 05-20-2012
Quote: (05-20-2012 12:12 PM)Greek kamaki Wrote:
If European economy sinks it will drag down American economy as well.Only the mega rich will be benefited who have enough deposits to buy everything when prices get down.The average traveller will be harmed.He will struggle for the essentials of living let alone travelling.
Kamaki is right: US is not going over a bed of roses lately... the benefits will be small. let' s be realist, this is a global thing, although EU is faring far worse lately. The good news is many will benefit at least for a while of the weaker euro.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Greek kamaki - 05-21-2012
First of all euro will not be weakened.Euro will be strengthened when Greece gets out because Greece drives the euro down.Greece only will become cheaper with drachma.But for it to make a difference in tourist arrivals it will need time.
Second the damage done will mostly focus on european South.Unemployment in Spain,Portugal will skyrocket.It does not have to do with travellers activities unless you focus on Spanish,Portugese and Greek women.
Third the relative losses of incomes will seriously undermine the middle class ability to travel in both sides of the Atlantic.That is only relatively wealthy citizens as they are now will enjoy the benefits of countries like Russia,Ukraine etc.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - donkey_puncher - 05-21-2012
If Europe is to save itself from financial collapse it must abandon the unaffordable welfare state and embrace the free market. However, even in times like this where the can can't be kicked down the road much further, there doesn't seem to be much interest in making reforms.
The Upside of the European Economic Meltdown - Deluge - 05-21-2012
Quote: (05-21-2012 03:57 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:
First of all euro will not be weakened.Euro will be strengthened when Greece gets out because Greece drives the euro down.Greece only will become cheaper with drachma.But for it to make a difference in tourist arrivals it will need time.
Second the damage done will mostly focus on european South.Unemployment in Spain,Portugal will skyrocket.It does not have to do with travellers activities unless you focus on Spanish,Portugese and Greek women.
Third the relative losses of incomes will seriously undermine the middle class ability to travel in both sides of the Atlantic.That is only relatively wealthy citizens as they are now will enjoy the benefits of countries like Russia,Ukraine etc.
I take issue with the bold. If Greece exits, there is a much higher chance of the PIGS doing so as well. If either Italy or Spain can't handle their problems, the entire Eurozone will go down with them, and that means pandemonium that the West will spend much of the rest of this decade recovering from.