Quote: (05-17-2019 01:37 PM)Deepdiver Wrote:  

....snipped...

I really do hear what you are saying and admire the Chinese ability to reverse engineer everything from Cell Phones, Bicycles, Land Rovers to Stealth Jet Fighters and our Trident Nuclear Ballistic Submarines and Mao's Long March Missiles not to mention our Aegis anti Missile Cruisers and Hypersonic Anti Everything Missiles.

And Confuscious Spirit only knows what they have done with our Area 51 etc, ARV technologies. I worked in a Major R&D Uni in Boston as a Cyber Security lead analyst.

Metro Boston has this phenomenon of Euro Kids - kids from wealthy families around the world who are very fond of major Euro Fashion Designers as a subtle way to exhibit their wealth DHV for men and SMV for Women.

The Euro Kids were originally wealthy students from Europe, the Middle East, and South America - more recently it is Indus Region and mostly Mainland Chinese with a few middle east, some Japanese and quite a few South Koreans... and of course Rich South Americans even richer selling Natural Resources to the Mainland Chinese. Mainland Chinese love Boston Unis so much they lead the recent Anti-Asian Racists lawsuit against the once invulnerable Harvard University for capping its "Asian" student body Undergrad and Grads at 25% - How dare this University founded on "China Trade" wealth discriminate against the Sons and some Daughters of the Communist Red Chinese predatory capitalists - China Trade in reverse is the ultimate in ironies.

Point is the more the Chinese go rogue - the more that Japan, South Korea, and Germany/EU will step up their game and they secretly support Uber Patriot Trump as they subscribe to the same intellectual property Patents, Copyrights and Trademarks protective laws that the USA does - and - Trump's corrective interview of XI, the CCP and Communist Inscrutable Freaking Red Chinese benefit the Japan, Germany and South Korea etc, more so as they are leaders in today's Global Knowledge Technologies based economy.

The fact that no one in the China Loving CFR controlled MSM speaks about is the USA's Major Global Market advantages only become more evident;

1. Business Contracts based upon the rule of law rather than graft and corruption networks (China/Russia etc).

2. Unlimited Land to build cutting edge state of the art AI/Robotic factories.

3. Unlimited Energy Resources included newer Renewable Energy and Backup power systems.

4. Unlimited Demand USA and Globally for best in class Quality and Reliability in all products and services these factories and Corporate Office Complexes in both USA based and foreign-based Corporations will continue to explode the growth of Competitive International Free, Fair, and Reciprocal trade worldwide.

....snipped....

It's not just the Chinese with the ability to reverse-engineer.

The Japanese are absolute masters at it.

And as you also point out, it's not just in engineering, it's in fashion.

Even music production.

I'm told they have the best 'tribute' bands on the planet in Japan (correct me if I'm wrong). I've known some Japanese guys who could play like Hendrix and make dub like Lee Scratch Perry. It's uncanny how they can strip something down to its bare bones and reconstitute it.

I'm also told, by someone that lives in Japan and is 'part' Japanese (he works in the international trade of high-end Japanese vintage guitars), that it's impossible to get in to a band there! He is a virtuoso musician on Bass. Probably one of the most accomplished bass players on the planet. He even looks a bit Japanese. But there is no way in hell he is ever going to be allowed to play in a band without being native born and bred. Don't forget he runs a successful shop there bringing in revenue for the country and for many other citizens who sell him their guitars when their loved ones die. Vintage guitars remember from the 70's, and 80's.

Now, that is what I call 'Racism'. The Japanese might just be the most 'racist' people on the entire planet. Absolutely savage.



Point is the more the Chinese go rogue - the more that Japan, South Korea, and Germany/EU will step up their game and they secretly support Uber Patriot Trump as they subscribe to the same intellectual property Patents, Copyrights and Trademarks protective laws that the USA does

I just mentioned this in a roundabout way before in my previous post before seeing yours. Japan is a competitor to China and so is South Korea. At least as far as Musical Instruments go. Well, it's not just musical instruments because those companies that make those musical instruments also make high end motorbikes (Yamaha) and software (Yamaha who bought out German company Steinberg).

If you study the history of these Japanese corporations like Korg and Yamaha they often started making something else and diversified as markets changed. A few started in the manufacture of Furniture. But those woodworking skills were quickly put to use for musical instrument manufacture.

We often talk about IQ here, so let's not forget those Chinese and Japanese are higher IQ than most Europeans/Americans. That means the ability to take previously won knowledge and apply it to other fields. Nothing is wasted. Everything is consolidated. One way or another.


As for Germany, well, I guess we'll have to delve a bit more in to that other stuff you mentioned about Patents/Copyrights/Trademarks...


Ah, Behringer again...

Quote: (05-17-2019 06:44 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  

As for Germany, well, I guess we'll have to delve a bit more in to that other stuff you mentioned about Patents/Copyrights/Trademarks...


Ah, Behringer again...

I was going to talk about Behringer anyway, as it seemed pertinent, but you brought Germany in to the argument, so that's another reason to mention them.

They are a German company founded by a Swiss guy whose father was a nuclear physicist and inventor. He is loved and loathed in equal measure. Not quite a Steve Jobs figure, but in a way, he is in his own right.

Behringer are known for providing high quality cheap equipment. Of course a lot of it breaks down, but it's cheap, whaddya want?

At the moment they are working on the most disruptive technology to hit the musical instrument business for decades. In fact, it's already here.

They are mass-producing old classics like the Roland TR-808 and TR-909. And where as if you could find one of these rare gems on ebay, it would cost you about 3000 dollars or more. The Behringer models? 300 Euros!

And they have even improved upon the originals in some ways.

Roland - a Japanese corporation is not very happy about this, but there is little they can do. The trademarks were not 'defended' - as I understand it, it is different to copyright law. A trademark needs to have itself reinforced or after a certain period of time anyone can use it. That seems to be the case here and the whole internet has blown up about the rights and wrongs of it. The morality, the ethics. The fact if these things will ever come to reality. But I won't get in to that here. It looks like it is indeed happening.

The 909 and 808 were the sound of hip hop, of jungle, of techno. They invented more musical genres than any other piece of equipment. They are the two most important and canonical drum machines on the planet. Let's take a look what they look like:







Pretty good. They sound pretty good too (sorry for the mashed up resize).

Behringer are doing all kinds of new analogue equipment that people said couldn't be rebuilt. They have invested massive amounts in creating their own modeling techniques but also in semi-conductor component manufacture. All of it done in China in Behringer City!

It's a massive tooling up of infrastructure. Massive investment in facilities, in people.

Just need to get around that pesky Patents/Copyrights/Trademarks... BS first. Which it looks like they have pretty much done.

The market is there. People (musicians) have been crying out for this stuff for ages. They were always told it's not feasible. And besides, Japanese corporations like Roland have always been pretty swift in enforcing many of their trademarks, but somehow, legally, they have dropped the ball on many of their seminal products.

It's a fight, because Behringer are sitting on an absolute gold mine. They may only make a few dollars on an item but they will make up for that in units sold. So the theory goes.

A big thing has been made of human rights and working conditions.

Sure, Apple get to use slave labour because they are a cult and make so much money and already work for the NSA et al.

But Behringer get no such pass. They will be scrutinized like you wouldn't believe. Apparently, there is an open invitation to anyone, anyone at all that would like to go visit the facilities in China and Behringer will even put you up in one of their other facilities while you do. They aren't calling it Behringer City for nothing!

From there you will be given a tour of the factory and get to meet the actual workers.

Ok, now that isn't a right to roam free I know, but it's the next best thing. This is not a Chinese sweat shop facility where the paint sprayers aren't afforded masks when breathing in fumes. These places still exist. They probably will for a while. You can buy a guitar for less than 50 bucks in the US.

But it's not just the Patents/Copyrights/Trademarks... of Roland they are supposedly infringing upon, they are going all out on other old analogue equipment that people want like the Arp synthesizers. It's not personal.

The Japanese got lazy. They got lazy in not backing up and protecting their Patents/Copyrights/Trademarks... and now it's too late. They got lazy in not making the stuff that other musicians have been begging them for for decades. They had the ability.

Hell, Korg have done what is regarded as probably the greatest emulation in the history of software virtualisation. They have just about perfecly ported their Korg MS-20 and M1 and Wavestation et al to VST that can run on any computer. They have even built controllers for these so they just about mimic the original hardware (MS-20).

The most amazing things can be done. But companies get lazy and just want to push new mediocre digital technology.

The future has arrived. But it is still held in a relatively few people's (corporations) hands. This is why Behringer is so loved and hated. They are freeing that technology for use by the masses at a price that is cheaper than at any other time in history. And they are doing it with style and flare. Even if it is just cheap shit. It's cheap shit that is 'good enough'.

A real 909 and 808 would cost you about 6000 bucks. I'll be buying both of them for a little over 600 bucks! I don't need them, but the chance of owning a 'real' drum machine like this is not possible to pass up. I already have thousands of pounds worth of drum software. But this is just a dream come true.

Do I care about Patents/Copyrights/Trademarks...? Do I fuck. If it makes it to market it's good enough for me.

And all made in China. Made possible because of advances in automation. And also advances in human rights. Sure, I bet Uli runs a hard game. But he won't get away with slave labour. It will be a step up for those working there.

China has a massive peasant population with no chance of improvement of their conditions. But the lucky ones will get to work in Uli's new 'City'.


https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/gen..._city.html


Following 3 years of work and $100 million of investment, Behringer announced the completion of a major project called the MusicTribe City.

We're looking at a state-of-the-art facility located in China, featuring a 3-million-square-foot (around 275,000 square metres) smart factory, plus accommodation and recreational space for 3,000 "tribers."

Some of additional facilities within the city include a hospital, supermarket, bakery, laundry service, and more.


"Many years ago we had a crazy dream to build the most sophisticated and green manufacturing facility that would also be an amazing place for our 3,000 Tribers to work and live in. And then the dream came true."





The whole Behringer thing seems like win/win to me, unless I'm missing something. People around the world (not poor people of course - fuck them) will be able to buy expensive audio equipment at 'no-brainer' prices. And it isn't even built with slave labour - just automation and the latest advances in technology. China gets some extra income via trade and domestically the workers get a pretty good place to work that is probably preferable to a paddy field. No offense to the Irish.

This is what it was always supposed to be about. Technology. Doing more with less. Freeing up the people. Enhancing their quality of life. This dream has it all.

And it's happening!




I now wait for it all to go dreadfully wrong...

Arado, welcome back, bro. Where have you been? I've been waiting for you to pop in here.

Quote: (05-17-2019 11:43 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

Arado, welcome back, bro. Where have you been? I've been waiting for you to pop in here.

Thanks - interesting discussion here, but there are a lot of anecdotes and I'm trying to get to the main points and big picture. What is the vision for how relations between China and the US/West/RestofWorld will evolve 10-20 years down the line? Will China stagnate/collapse and/or what is the appropriate US response? Can the US stop China from dominating the industries of the future and/or Asia if they really put their mind to it? Does Western Civilization have the will for it?

This Huawei thing really illustrates the point I was trying to make about China.

They are not even trying to hide the fact that they don't want to play fair. There is never fair with China. There is a winner and a loser. ALWAYS.

They've banned well over 10+ western brands/websites and continue to try and push the west out of China

Reddit
Uber
Youtube
Facebook
Twitter
Wikipedia
Whatsapp
Skype

but USA threatens to ban one of their major companies (spies) and it's suddenly the end of the world? Their autistic screeching delights me because it signifies that maybe, just maybe, future China will want to play ball and stick to agreements instead of being the second most powerful country in the world and acting like North Korea's autistic big bro.

Give me a fucking break.

That question is far too broad for me to answer.

A collapse in China? I doubt it and I hope not. That's an apocalyptic scenario for all the countries propped up by Chinese business.

I think what China is undergoing is something that all nations go through:

They've squeezed out the easy gains in term of economic growth and money and now they're trying to solve problems that are highly resistant to improvements. These recalcitrant points in Chinese governance and business are mostly cultural I think. They will not easily overcome these things because they're not things you can just buy or legislate out of existence. Of course, this isn't a sign of chinese weakness. Every nation has their own weak points that would be so recalcitrant that they're just entrenched and never going away.

The big ones that come to mind are:

1. the kleptocratic culture
2. weak dairy and farming industry
3. extending their influence abroad
4. actually understanding how to utilize their soft power and negotiation skills instead of just waving around a big stick

I think a lot of these are philosophical in nature, but the way in which these questions are answered by Chinese government will be quite telling.

Can you just regulate bad behavior out of existence? No. America is a great example of this. Tons of companies make it their mission to skirt laws designed to help everyone. China and their social credit thing is going to backfire big time. When have laws ever truly stopped Chinese people from doing what they wanted? I think social credit will be gamed by the smart people and adhered to by the idiots and nothing will change.

The dairy industry can be fixed, and that will lead to some improvements in overall health for the country and the world. If they continue to use their sloppy farming methods the immediate second order consequence I foresee is some sort of plague that fucks up the planet. Farming can also change if they can continue to grow their hydroponics industry. That would be fucking awesome.

Extending their influence abroad is happening but it's mostly through just buying stuff up and applying economic pressure to organizations and individuals they do not like. I am not sure where this one is headed. I suspect if this is handled properly they can be a world power that's respected and perhaps even liked. If not, I could see a politically-isolated china that everyone tolerates but does not actually want to deal with.

Despite what I think of the country, Chinese reputation abroad is still suspect. If they can use their soft power and negotiation skills I think they can turn it around.

A lot of this is tied back to point #1, though. If rest of the developed world sees china continue with their klepto BS, then the reputation stays.

Honestly, I think that USA can force China to negotiate and learn how to sit down and talk instead of balking on everything that doesn't immediately favor them.

I don't think it'll quite be what everyone wants, but a China that is willing to discuss and agree to things that are mutually beneficial for both parties is what we need right now.

China is very much governed by individuals who were fostered during a time when you had to be a pretty horrific asshole to survive. This rule by the worst human impulses is what I think needs to be heavily addressed or I foresee a midling China that greedily clutches the things it's good at but never learns to cooperate enough to get the assistance that they need to really skyrocket certain industries.

This keeps going back to what Aquarius said:

What kind of China does China want to be?

That's really the point I cannot answer and I'm not sure how to even approach. Furthermore, do they know what sort of China they want to be.

As Lunostrelki pointed out, there's some tension between different parts of the government and it's a rather sensitive time given that Xi has just made himself into emperor.

Do we get Xi's China or do we get CCP's China?

Anyway, I don't mean to pontificate. I don't know much more than many of the other China dudes in this thread.

Quote: (Yesterday 12:42 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

This Huawei thing really illustrates the point I was trying to make about China.

They are not even trying to hide the fact that they don't want to play fair. There is never fair with China. There is a winner and a loser. ALWAYS.

They've banned well over 10+ western brands/websites and continue to try and push the west out of China

Reddit
Uber
Youtube
Facebook
Twitter
Wikipedia
Whatsapp
Skype

but USA threatens to ban one of their major companies (spies) and it's suddenly the end of the world? Their autistic screeching delights me because it signifies that maybe, just maybe, future China will want to play ball and stick to agreements instead of being the second most powerful country in the world and acting like North Korea's autistic big bro.

Give me a fucking break.

There actually are reasonable grounds for banning most of these online media companies, there's way too much power in that eye of Sauron. I would ban Facebook from Europe too in a heartbeat, if I was in charge in Brussels.

The US government doesn't give a shit about its industrial base, the main reason Huawei is getting all sorts of pushback from the deep state because they don't have a backdoor in their firmware, like they do for Apple, Intel and probably Samsung too.

I don't think Huawei has a built-in backdoor in their machines sold in the West, because they wouldn't be able to build one without the alphabet agencies exposing it. That unique attribute makes Huawei a more desirable product for those who hold thoughts that might not be considered kosher...

Still, the point stands that they can't take when other nations do to them what they've been doing for decades to others. They've regularly seized intellectual property of foreign businesses in China and a slew of other things that does not allow them much sympathy in my eyes.

Whatever the reason may be, China's put itself in an untenable situation where they just look stupid. You ban everything you don't like and then someone else does it to something you don't like and it's suddenly valid. Get the fuck out of here with that double-standard bullshit.

Is it possible to root against both the US government and China?

I really don't think we have a moral leg to stand on when it comes to double standards and human rights, what with all the bombing and jailing political dissidents (Assange).

Fuck China. And fuck the US government. The winner of this fight doesn't have anything good in store for us. I hope this trade war continues for ages actually, at least in that case somebody is keeping ZOG busy before they turn their attention to the populace.

Quote: (Yesterday 01:42 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Is it possible to root against both the US government and China?

I really don't think we have a moral leg to stand on when it comes to double standards and human rights, what with all the bombing and jailing political dissidents (Assange).

Fuck China. And fuck the US government. The winner of this fight doesn't have anything good in store for us. I hope this trade war continues for ages actually, at least in that case somebody is keeping ZOG busy before they turn their attention to the populace.

With all due respect, this is a childish and immature attitude to take.
You're in where, Mexico?

What do you think will happen if America, China, and Russia all disappeared? Do you really think such a vacuum of power will turn the world into a peaceful paradsise?

History frankly doesn't seem to follow that logic and hates power voids.

At this juncture right now, you have to lick some boot . Be grateful it's an American one because if it were Russian or worse Chinese, you'd probably be whining about how you miss America.

Want a taste of what it would be like to live under Asian hegemony? Watch The Man in the High Castle. Yeah they're all Japs, but it isn't far removed for how the Chinese would-be treating someone like you.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:37 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

With all due respect, this is a childish and immature attitude to take.
You're in where, Mexico?

US citizen living in the US.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:37 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

What do you think will happen if America, China, and Russia all disappeared? Do you really think such a vacuum of power will turn the world into a peaceful paradsise?

I don't know and neither do you. But you're not gonna find me cheerleading for Goliath vs. Goliath.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:37 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

At this juncture right now, you have to lick some boot . Be grateful it's an American one .

No thanks. The only thing I lick (sometimes) is pussy. But back to your point, the world post-US hegemony can be multipolar with various spheres of influence. It just might be that "licking" anyone's boot won't be a necessity.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:37 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Want a taste of what it would be like to live under Asian hegemony? Watch The Man in the High Castle.

I don't base my worldview on fictional TV shows.

What's up with all the anti-China hatred and sentiment here???

It honestly makes no sense to me at all.

What has China done or is doing that's so evil or worth being hostile to them?

Honestly, China is arguably the most peaceful great power in the world ever, as they literally haven't been in a single armed conflict ever since the Korean War in the 1950's. China is literally building infrastructure (roads, railways, buildings etc.) for at least half the planet and improving the economic prosperity of these countries.

What has the USA done ever since it got undisputed uni-polar world power status in the 1990's (which has only begun to slowly decline from the 2000's)?

Its launched at least 10 wars, aggressively overthrown (or tried to at least) the governments of at least 20 countries through color revolutions, imposed the big gay and all other forms of LGBTQ/feminism on the world, imposed IMF and World Bank usury/debt slavery on the world, imposed its military occupation on half the planet through its army bases and NATO alliance and a bunch of other things that i can't think of immediately from the top of my head ...

Now, when they are obviously losing their leading power status to China they are getting all up into a hissy fit, even though its literally their fault for making China an economic power.

It was the elites of the USA who outsourced the industrial base of their country to China. They were the ones that decided to engage intensively in trading with China despite knowing that long-term China would likely take their technologies regardless of patents, and easily be able to replicate the production of things like phones and microchips much more cost effectively.

Why was all this done?

Simple, to defeat the Soviet Union. Ever since the 1970's, when Nixon/Kissinger improved diplomatic relations and basically offered China an extremely large economic bribe by giving them generous trade terms to distance themselves from Russia, literally everything in China's rising power is quite predictable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ni...t_to_China

Its the fault of the USA's elites for being so blindly and ruthlessly anti-Russian that they literally made China a great power in order to distance China from Russia. Considering that China only held to this for the length of the Cold War, as they are currently in in a defensive military alliance with Russia and have extensive trade relations with them, this hasn't even worked anyway ...

I see all this anti-China screeching from the USA as if Lindy West as a fat, color haired, wall hitting dyke, were to begin screeching at some beautiful young Asian waifu in her prime.

I frankly believe that people in the West have much more urgent and critical issues to deal with that are non-China related, than to be good goy shills against China ...

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

What's up with all the anti-China hatred and sentiment here???

It honestly makes no sense to me at all.

Some of us actually live in China, have invested heavily into the culture and therefore aren't clueless about what a China as the leading global power would look like.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

What has China done or is doing that's so evil or worth being hostile to them?

I could make a list, but I'll just throw one thing out there.

Chinese business and individuals aren't free to buy foreign goods in the same way that people of virtually every other country are. This is enforced through strict currency controls and import policies. Sure, some foreign goods are sold in China, but by and large, China is not open to foreign goods (including some created by yours truly) and the fact that the biggest consumer market in the world sells to everyone else and holds a virtual monopoly on selling to itself makes me

(a) pissed that China doesn't play fair
(b) pissed that my country (and others) let them get away with it

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

Honestly, China is arguably the most peaceful great power in the world ever, as they literally haven't been in a single armed conflict ever since the Korean War in the 1950's.

Wrong.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

China is literally building infrastructure (roads, railways, buildings etc.) for at least half the planet and improving the economic prosperity of these countries.

Heh. You really wanna go there?

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

What has the USA done ever since it got undisputed uni-polar world power status in the 1990's (which has only begun to slowly decline from the 2000's)?

Its launched at least 10 wars, aggressively overthrown (or tried to at least) the governments of at least 20 countries through color revolutions, imposed the big gay and all other forms of LGBTQ/feminism on the world, imposed IMF and World Bank usury/debt slavery on the world, imposed its military occupation on half the planet through its army bases and NATO alliance and a bunch of other things that i can't think of immediately from the top of my head ...

Now, when they are obviously losing their leading power status to China they are getting all up into a hissy fit, even though its literally their fault for making China an economic power.

When the US starts unnecessary wars and the CIA fucks up again, its own citizens protest the government. The Vietnam War ended largely because of negative sentiment towards it by the people of the USA once the realities of the situation came to light.

Do you think anyone in China is going to give a fuck when their leaders invade other countries? Are they going to hold their government to account. Is there even a mechanism for doing so in the Middle Kingdom?

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

It was the elites of the USA who outsourced the industrial base of their country to China. They were the ones that decided to engage intensively in trading with China despite knowing that long-term China would likely take their technologies regardless of patents, and easily be able to replicate the production of things like phones and microchips much more cost effectively.

Yes, we can be pissed at the elites of our own country AND China for abusing our generosity, by providing a system of international trade that they could have never reached their current level of development without the assistance of.

We just want them to start playing by the rules, instead of operating a system where money can enter China, but never leave.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

I frankly believe that people in the West have much more urgent and critical issues to deal with that are non-China related, than to be good goy shills against China ...

You say that because you're not qualified to assess the situation.

^ All due respect, you don’t live in the US, and you don’t really have a clue as to what the priorities of an average US citizen are. For many of us, China is a red-herring and a distraction.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

What's up with all the anti-China hatred and sentiment here???

It honestly makes no sense to me at all.

What has China done or is doing that's so evil or worth being hostile to them?

Honestly, China is arguably the most peaceful great power in the world ever, as they literally haven't been in a single armed conflict ever since the Korean War in the 1950's. China is literally building infrastructure (roads, railways, buildings etc.) for at least half the planet and improving the economic prosperity of these countries.

What has the USA done ever since it got undisputed uni-polar world power status in the 1990's (which has only begun to slowly decline from the 2000's)?

Its launched at least 10 wars, aggressively overthrown (or tried to at least) the governments of at least 20 countries through color revolutions, imposed the big gay and all other forms of LGBTQ/feminism on the world, imposed IMF and World Bank usury/debt slavery on the world, imposed its military occupation on half the planet through its army bases and NATO alliance and a bunch of other things that i can't think of immediately from the top of my head ...

Now, when they are obviously losing their leading power status to China they are getting all up into a hissy fit, even though its literally their fault for making China an economic power.

It was the elites of the USA who outsourced the industrial base of their country to China. They were the ones that decided to engage intensively in trading with China despite knowing that long-term China would likely take their technologies regardless of patents, and easily be able to replicate the production of things like phones and microchips much more cost effectively.

Why was all this done?

Simple, to defeat the Soviet Union. Ever since the 1970's, when Nixon/Kissinger improved diplomatic relations and basically offered China an extremely large economic bribe by giving them generous trade terms to distance themselves from Russia, literally everything in China's rising power is quite predictable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ni...t_to_China

Its the fault of the USA's elites for being so blindly and ruthlessly anti-Russian that they literally made China a great power in order to distance China from Russia. Considering that China only held to this for the length of the Cold War, as they are currently in in a defensive military alliance with Russia and have extensive trade relations with them, this hasn't even worked anyway ...

I see all this anti-China screeching from the USA as if Lindy West as a fat, color haired, wall hitting dyke, were to begin screeching at some beautiful young Asian waifu in her prime.

I frankly believe that people in the West have much more urgent and critical issues to deal with that are non-China related, than to be good goy shills against China ...

I'm not shilling against China, but just seeing China for what it is. Like all countries, China has its pros and cons, and its own way of viewing the world. China can't be held to a Western standard because it is fundamentally a non-Western civilization founded on Confucian values instead of Judeo-Christian values. What is important is for the West to understand how to deal with a Confucian up-and-coming Great Power, and vice versa. For example, face is a huge part of Chinese culture, much more so than honor and fairness, which is more or less the Western way of thinking. Just like the Chinese way of operating, which breaches honor and honesty that Westerners hold dear to, is what caused scrutiny on them in the first place, China can't really back down and sign a deal that is more US-friendly because doing so will cause it to lose face.

And like America in say, 1910, China is still a rising power working on itself internally while extracting as much as it can from the current US-ran system, just like what the US did 100 years ago trying to rise its way to the top in a world dominated by European, especially the British, Empires. Back then, the US was largely peaceful and isolationist while the Brits were invading and colonizing countries left and right.

Yes the USG has overthrown many govts, but once China becomes the number one power in the world, do you expect it not to do something similar? Keep in mind while Western altruism doesn't apply with the Chinese, Western fairness and honesty doesn't apply either. While China won't be forcing its values on the rest of the world since that culture doesn't have an altruistic/messianic bent, a culture that places low value on having a fair playing field but on face instead will mean that overall life may be rather miserable for non-Chinese under a Chinese-dominated world.

And you can ask Pakistan, Cambodia, East Africa, and even the Lake Baikal region in Russia how/what being directly under the Chinese sphere of influence feels like.

This is more and more looking like a clash of civilizations if anything.

Quote: (Yesterday 11:16 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

^ All due respect, you don’t live in the US, and you don’t really have a clue as to what the priorities of an average US citizen are. For many of us, China is a red-herring and a distraction.

Incorrect. I've spent a ton of time living in the USA, in fact, almost as much time as I've spent in China. It was at an American institution where I earned my undergraduate. I have an SSN. More than half my family is US citizens. My brother is married to an American and has spent his entire adult life living in the US. I've dated more American women than Canadian. I've engaged in years of employment in the US with a diverse group of coworkers. I have more friends from the US than any other country, probably more than all other countries combined.

I stand corrected and I didn’t mean to call you out.

But my point remains, that we many of our problems are INTERNAL as well as spiritual (a topic for another day).

I get that you’re very down on China, although if I may ask, why do you keep living and doing business there if it’s not to your liking?

Quote: (Yesterday 11:50 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

I get that you’re very down on China....

I'm not "down on China." I just recognize it for what it is. Like it or not, China is a key player in our time and our response to China right now will determine how the next many decades play out on our earth.

When I see people making factually incorrect statements about China, sometimes I take the time to correct them.

Quote: (Yesterday 11:50 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Why do you keep living and doing business in China if it’s not to your liking?

Quote: (Yesterday 11:58 PM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (Yesterday 11:50 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Why do you keep living and doing business in China if it’s not to your liking?

Hashtag #relatable.

In a broader sense, it's entirely possible to be upset with the US government's actions and the general culture, and still be glad you're not living under Beijing's boot.
It's not a great place to be, really.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:37 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Quote: (Yesterday 01:42 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Is it possible to root against both the US government and China?

I really don't think we have a moral leg to stand on when it comes to double standards and human rights, what with all the bombing and jailing political dissidents (Assange).

Fuck China. And fuck the US government. The winner of this fight doesn't have anything good in store for us. I hope this trade war continues for ages actually, at least in that case somebody is keeping ZOG busy before they turn their attention to the populace.

With all due respect, this is a childish and immature attitude to take.
You're in where, Mexico?

What do you think will happen if America, China, and Russia all disappeared? Do you really think such a vacuum of power will turn the world into a peaceful paradsise?

History frankly doesn't seem to follow that logic and hates power voids.

At this juncture right now, you have to lick some boot . Be grateful it's an American one because if it were Russian or worse Chinese, you'd probably be whining about how you miss America.

Want a taste of what it would be like to live under Asian hegemony? Watch The Man in the High Castle. Yeah they're all Japs, but it isn't far removed for how the Chinese would-be treating someone like you.

This is why we need a balance of powers. America, Russia, and China in fact all need each other:

Western altruism, Russian cynicism, and Chinese dishonesty are all the negative features of their respective civilizations. Meanwhile positive features include Western chivalry/discipline, Russian realism, and Chinese conformity, tolerance to hard work, and intelligence. Without a balance of powers in a unipolar world, these negative traits would engulf the world without the positive traits of the countries shining.

For example, Western altruism lead us to "invade the world, invite the world", uncontrolled immigration, and Clown World liberalism like LGBT, and expecting the rest of the world to also follow along. But the West was able to achieve its current prosperity only via the chivalrous societal code and a relatively disciplined population; sadly both traits are collapsing due to altruism.

Likewise, Russian cynicism lead Russia to have a sluggish economy and passive moves like Ukraine. But Russia's realism is what made Russia pull through 100 years of Communism and become a bastion (in relative terms with respect the Clown World West) of a traditional Orthodox Christian, European society.

Chinese dishonesty is why we're having a trade war. But China's conformity and tolerance of poor working conditions is precisely how China was able to pool together resources to rise from being the world's biggest basketcase to prosperous upper middle income country within just 30 years. China's high IQ is what enabled it to negotiate so many favorable trade deals and reverse engineer products.

Having a unipolar US-centric world will blanket the whole world in Clown World and slow extinction of traditional cultures/values kind of like what we're seeing right now with Western Europe. Having a unipolar Chinese-centric world will blanket the whole world in a totalitarian, Dickensian-style misery; kiss goodbye to a whole slew of personal freedoms. Russia is in no position in the 21st century to be a superpower so I can't say what a Russian-dominated world will be like: however, it needs to kept as an independent geopolitical actor/balancer.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:59 PM)Suits Wrote:  

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

What's up with all the anti-China hatred and sentiment here???

It honestly makes no sense to me at all.

Some of us actually live in China, have invested heavily into the culture and therefore aren't clueless about what a China as the leading global power would look like.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

What has China done or is doing that's so evil or worth being hostile to them?

I could make a list, but I'll just throw one thing out there.

Chinese business and individuals aren't free to buy foreign goods in the same way that people of virtually every other country are. This is enforced through strict currency controls and import policies. Sure, some foreign goods are sold in China, but by and large, China is not open to foreign goods (including some created by yours truly) and the fact that the biggest consumer market in the world sells to everyone else and holds a virtual monopoly on selling to itself makes me

(a) pissed that China doesn't play fair
(b) pissed that my country (and others) let them get away with it

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

Honestly, China is arguably the most peaceful great power in the world ever, as they literally haven't been in a single armed conflict ever since the Korean War in the 1950's.

Wrong.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

China is literally building infrastructure (roads, railways, buildings etc.) for at least half the planet and improving the economic prosperity of these countries.

Heh. You really wanna go there?

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

What has the USA done ever since it got undisputed uni-polar world power status in the 1990's (which has only begun to slowly decline from the 2000's)?

Its launched at least 10 wars, aggressively overthrown (or tried to at least) the governments of at least 20 countries through color revolutions, imposed the big gay and all other forms of LGBTQ/feminism on the world, imposed IMF and World Bank usury/debt slavery on the world, imposed its military occupation on half the planet through its army bases and NATO alliance and a bunch of other things that i can't think of immediately from the top of my head ...

Now, when they are obviously losing their leading power status to China they are getting all up into a hissy fit, even though its literally their fault for making China an economic power.

When the US starts unnecessary wars and the CIA fucks up again, its own citizens protest the government. The Vietnam War ended largely because of negative sentiment towards it by the people of the USA once the realities of the situation came to light.

Do you think anyone in China is going to give a fuck when their leaders invade other countries? Are they going to hold their government to account. Is there even a mechanism for doing so in the Middle Kingdom?

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

It was the elites of the USA who outsourced the industrial base of their country to China. They were the ones that decided to engage intensively in trading with China despite knowing that long-term China would likely take their technologies regardless of patents, and easily be able to replicate the production of things like phones and microchips much more cost effectively.

Yes, we can be pissed at the elites of our own country AND China for abusing our generosity, by providing a system of international trade that they could have never reached their current level of development without the assistance of.

We just want them to start playing by the rules, instead of operating a system where money can enter China, but never leave.

Quote: (Yesterday 10:11 PM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

I frankly believe that people in the West have much more urgent and critical issues to deal with that are non-China related, than to be good goy shills against China ...

You say that because you're not qualified to assess the situation.

Okay, China has mercantilist and protectionist economic policies and looks out for itself in the world. So what? Do US corporations play fair in the world economic marketplace?

Okay, China had a border war with Vietnam in 1970 and a bunch of border skirmishes with the Soviet Union in the 1970's as well. Still, these are all wars in China's immediate neighborhood and not them going to the far corners of the earth to invade other people. Ever since then, China has literally undisputedly been at peace for at least 30 years ever since the 1990's.

LOL. Why should i care if the Chinese only trust their own to build infrastructure projects in Africa? Is the fact that a bunch of animals happen to be ran over by a Chinese built train really the fault of China?

Okay, the Chinese probably aren't going to be protesting much when their government gets involved in some kind of war. If there really were "democratic accountability" in the USA/West, all the warmongering and immigration (among other things) would've stopped a long time ago. Still, do the Chinese run around the planet hoaxing false flag attacks or incidents by faking/exaggerating "human rights violations" and "anti-democratic" nonsense in order to provoke and justify invasions all over the world?

Is China really the most urgent issue then? Don't you consider the fact that peoples' of European descent in the Anglosphere and West Europe going extinct and not existing in the next century a big issue?

The European-descended populations of Britain and the USA are on the verge of becoming minorities by 2050 or earlier. I would personally be far more bothered by that, than China, if i lived in either Britain or the USA ...

Just to be clear. I'm not blindly pro-Chinese or anything of the sort.

I frankly think that the Chinese have some very disturbing and weird tastes in food like eating cats, dogs, insects, and etc.

This is extremely messed up to me. I also think they have some other weird and odd behaviors.

I haven't been to China yet, but i have a flight booked there next year for Hong Kong and the mainland, so i'm genuinely interested to see what its like there.

Quote: (Today 03:02 AM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  

Just to be clear. I'm not blindly pro-Chinese or anything of the sort.

I frankly think that the Chinese have some very disturbing and weird tastes in food like eating cats, dogs, insects, and etc.

This is extremely messed up to me. I also think they have some other weird and odd behaviors.

I haven't been to China yet, but i have a flight booked there next year for Hong Kong and the mainland, so i'm genuinely interested to see what its like there.

Sorry, but no one eats cats in China. Whoever still believes this is a chauvinistic, holier-than-thou Westerner. When it comes to Chinese meat eating habits, even the most unscrupulous cheap street food vendors would draw the line in the sand at spoiled/rotting regular pork, chicken, and lamb.

Dog meat is more of a Korean thing than Chinese, and in both countries, its very heavily frowned upon by anyone under say, age 50 in 2019.

Insects is a niche street food in Beijing. Those are specifically made for tourists and the insects are farmed, not caught from the street.

And yes, a lot of us do care about how US-China relations pan out. Some of us are either Americans living in China, or Chinese living in the US. Others are Americans with significant investments in China or vice versa. For those aforementioned groups, how China and the US interact with each other has a profound effect on our lives. If relations utterly collapse, then whether we can continue living in, or even visit in the most extreme case, each others' countries becomes at stake and many on both sides will be forced to shut down businesses.

I agree with you that whites becoming a minority in Anglosphere countries is definitely an internal issue in the Anglosphere that shouldn't be ignored or celebrated like it is now. But whites becoming a minority in the Anglosphere and a clashing of values between the Anglosphere and the Sinosphere are 2 completely separate issues that require separate, unrelated solutions.

What exactly do the China bashers want anyway? The criticisms are all over the place starting with muh intellectual property and ending with “they’re colonizing Africa”.

What is it that you want China to stop doing?

Quote: (Yesterday 12:42 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

This Huawei thing really illustrates the point I was trying to make about China.

They are not even trying to hide the fact that they don't want to play fair. There is never fair with China. There is a winner and a loser. ALWAYS.

They've banned well over 10+ western brands/websites and continue to try and push the west out of China

Reddit
Uber
Youtube
Facebook
Twitter
Wikipedia
Whatsapp
Skype

but USA threatens to ban one of their major companies (spies) and it's suddenly the end of the world? Their autistic screeching delights me because it signifies that maybe, just maybe, future China will want to play ball and stick to agreements instead of being the second most powerful country in the world and acting like North Korea's autistic big bro.

Give me a fucking break.

Weren't Huawei phones and equipment already banned in USA? The only ones that will suffer over Google pulling out are European Huawei customers.