[Arado]

Given the amount of expertise on this forum as well as Trump focusing strongly on China, I'm surprised that China policy isn't getting more attention and it merits its own thread.

It looks like Trump has hired a pretty establishment guy to be Ambassador to China, the former governor of Iowa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Bran...r_to_China

However, the new head of the National Trade Council, Peter Navarro, is pretty much one of the most anti-China academics out there. Just check out his most recent documentary on China's growing militarism: Crouching Tiger.

Also, look at some of Trump's China tweets below:

Quote:

"Did China ask us if it was OK to devalue their currency (making it hard for our companies to compete), heavily tax our products going into their country (the U.S. doesn't tax them) or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don't think so!"
5 Dec 2016

Quote:

China has been taking out massive amounts of money & wealth from the U.S. in totally one-sided trade, but won't help with North Korea. Nice!
7:47 AM - 3 Jan 2017

It is clear that Trump is far more antagonistic towards China than Russia. Also take a look at Rex Tillerson's statements on the South China sea saying that we will take measures to prevent them from accessing the islands.
http://time.com/4634078/rex-tillerson-so...ald-trump/

The Chinese were not at all happy with this, but Chinese media was also infuriated with Trump's apparent willingness to abandon the One-China policy, which the Chinese would be willing to go to war for.

According to the CIA, they have now exceeded our GDP using the purchasing power parity index.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications...nk.html#ch

Their One Belt One Road plan to create massive infrastructure in Asia will give them tremendous economic leverage over their neighbors. They also started their own infrastructure development bank, the AIIB. Finally, the RMB is now a reserve currency for the IMF.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/12...r-d04.html

But that's not all. China continues to harass Japanese ships in the east China sea and China is continuing its island reclamation activities in defiance of a UN court ruling saying that they don't have jurisdiction over the south China sea. They seized the Scarborough Shoal from the Philippines a few years ago and are now militarizing it.
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/chin...ters-17678


China continues to be a massive violator of U.S. intellectual property rights and is making it increasingly difficult for U.S. companies to operate there.
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy...-companies


China is moving into many industries that we've done well with, from apps, to airplanes, to smartphones. Their big picture objective is to buy up the world's technology and dominate manufacturing for the near future.
https://www.merics.org/en/press-contact/...s-fernost/

The U.S. market is not close to as important to China as it was a decade ago when they were completely dependent on foreign companies to manufacture in China and sell to home markets. China now has their own domestic brands making products that they're pushing throughout the world. A tariff won't hurt them as much as it would have a decade ago. Countries are now just as desperate to access the China market as Chinese sellers are to access foreign markets.

Trump can dump TPP, fine. That just means China pushes RCEP with other Asian countries and gets a firmer grip on the economy there. Trump can belittle one sided alliances, but what happens if South Korea or the Philippines then bandwagons with the Chinese? Some people are theorizing that Trump is making nice with the Russians to get them on our side agains the Chinese.

Even if China's debt bubble bursts and they have a full on financial crisis, that only buys us a few years. With everyone talking about US unsustainable debt and stagnant employment, even with mass money printing, do you think we will come out of a debt bubble burst unscathed? Unlikely.
thread-54033.html

One thing going for them is they don't buy into political correctness and seem to emphasize traditional values.

Despite the media and many on this forum insisting that China is on the verge of collapse, we've heard this same BS for DECADES now and yet China continues to chug along. If they keep investing an ever growing % of their GDP in their military, then eventually it will get to a point where the cost of projecting power into China's backyard will no longer be sustainable for a US that is facing severe demographic pressures in the next decade.

How should a President Trump deal with China? The clock is ticking. Every year that goes by China comes closer to equalling our economic and military power. They have over 4x the US population, a population that has a better basic foundation in basic math and science, a pro-education culture, and no violent underclass. It's also just a matter of time before they invest massively in culture/arts in order to counter Hollywood programming and gain greater soft power on the world stage. China in fact was the most advanced civilization on the planet for most of its history until the industrial revolution.

If you were Trump, how would you handle what is inevitably going to be the most difficult long term foreign policy challenge of his administration?

[TravelerKai]

Trump needs to tone down the anti China rhetoric and calmly redo whatever deals he can redo. China will never back down off the 1 China Policy. Not ever. That is like them being Jewish and saying the Holocaust did not happen at all. Also we are obligated to adhere to that because we have a treaty with them. A treaty is ratified by Congress. If he does not like the treaty that is tough, but no president gets to decide what treaties we will follow or not, it is his job to enforce the law, and if he wants that changed, he should calmly renegotiate that treaty in earnest.

Like Eddie said in the Trump thread the other day, let them have the South China Sea. It belonged to them for thousands of years before. Do you think we would actually give the entire gulf of Mexico away to Mexico and allow them to claim it as Mexican territory? No. It may have their name on it, but those waters are primarily ours.

That said, China is going to have to get tough skin and ignore the bulk of his rants and try to just negotiate whatever they can calmly. Hopefully them sending Jack Ma to Trump tower was productive to get better relations going. If China suffers, we will suffer to an extent. A gradual restructure is better than ripping off bandaids. I went to a supermarket in a very small town in China today. I saw lots of American products inside. Like Bill Gates told Trump, it took a lot of work to get business inside China. Alot of bullshit was put up with, to get it this far. Now is not the time to throw all that business in the garbage can all of a sudden.

The cold hard truth is that The US, Russia, and China own the world. Power wise, Economically, and Socio-Politically. We need to stop treating each other like enemies because it is extremely counterproductive. There is more than enough to go around with all three calling the shots. There is also more than enough work to do leading the rest of the world. China worked on Africa, we took the middle east more or less, and Russia has a few spots in places. Working with the other 2 is not Globalism. We can create our own OPEC like cartel. That's not Globalism. We can still have our own sovereign borders and powers and just collaborate alot more with the other 2. Trump is right to question NATO and the UN. Both are terrible deals for America in various ways, but I will say that it is still good to have different acquaintances and friends for different things and use them when it is advantageous.

There are going to be 3 hegemonic powers no matter what people want or desire. There is still enough room for all three countries to manspread on the train, no need to get greedy or silly about it. The other countries can stand and hold the pole for all we care. The UK, Germany, and France would piss themselves once we lock arms with the other two. No doubt they are worried and they should be. They are quietly hoping that the US keeps on talking shit and not get too friendly with both. The Russian friendliness is bothering them badly already. This new Big 3 has a tremendous opportunity to do some good work. For starters only a Big 3 could bring North Korea to heel and make them stop acting out.

No matter how the journey was started, all 3 did what was required to get to the top. Gotta respect that. Ideology is not everything and no country should agree on everything.

[John Michael Kane]

Quote:

Trump needs to tone down the anti China rhetoric and calmly redo whatever deals he can redo. China will never back down off the 1 China Policy. Not ever. That is like them being Jewish and saying the Holocaust did not happen at all. Also we are obligated to adhere to that because we have a treaty with them. A treaty is ratified by Congress. If he does not like the treaty that is tough, but no president gets to decide what treaties we will follow or not, it is his job to enforce the law, and if he wants that changed, he should calmly renegotiate that treaty in earnest.

Treaties are in place, but assume two state actors working on the principle of Good Faith. The Chinese have proven to be ruthless cutthroats in bullying anyone in Asia they think is too weak to stand up to them. A treaty can be tossed aside if one or both parties to that document find the other state's actions untenable. What China is doing in the sea does not foster diplomacy. Their constant theft of American business intellectual property is an American scandal that we haven't punished these jackals. Their OPM hack is a massive trove of government employee blackmail waiting to happen. China's long-standing outright neglect and downright abuse of the environment and their poor are inarguable facts. All this talk about Climate Change is worthless without China actually making more than symbolic efforts to clean up their mess. Last but not least, China is a brutally oppressive squelcher of free speech. How on earth do they have any moral claim to the One China policy when mainland Chinese don't even know what "their" own government is doing, much less the independent government of another island? Don't even get me started on their constant support of North Korea.

The Chinese are a proud people, and culturally chauvinistic to a fault. America needs to deal with countries on our terms, not terms dictated by a tinpot party of communist overlords who abuse their own populations and exploit the greedy Western businessman for cheap imports. We need to talk tough to China in private and let them know there's a new sheriff in town. Don't make a point of making a public spat more than necessary. What does need to be done, should be done in private and direct contact with the Chinese government. They need to show they are willing to be reasonable actors by allowing more freedom of speech, better care for the environment and all the other issues I mentioned above. They need us more than we need them. In a trade war, both sides suffer losses, but their export market to us is much larger than our export market to them. Trump has leverage to use here, and being a master negotiator, I have full faith in him shifting the chessboard around for our best interests.

Enough is enough.

[SamuelBRoberts]

China isn't like Russia. Russia wants its space, and to be left alone. China wants to be our rival.

I have no problem letting them be our rival.

[HOD]

Rivalry in biology is a good thing, therefore this brings balance to the world.

Besides, China and the USA are the biggest trade partners. Therefore no war can happen or be afforded.

All they can do is play small political games through the media.

The real threat is the CIA and the NSA.

[Wutang]

I heard Trump has lots of pro-Taiwan advisers on his team. John Bolton, who is a super neo-con hawk that a lot of people (including me) was going to get Secretary of State is still advising Trump and he's been talking tough on China to the point he's even suggesting that the US starts stationing troops on Taiwan. There's lots of other countries around China too that has been getting nervous about China becoming a regional hegemonic power. Japan is especially afraid and they've taken steps to beef up their military in the last few years. I wonder if there's going to be an Asian NATO of some sort forth coming in the next few years to counter China in the same way the actual NATO exists to counter Russia.

[Traktor]

Agree with Kai. China will never back down and supporting Taiwan will undo decades of hard work begun by Nixon's rapprochement back in 1972. China is a firm ally of Russia and Trump's team needs to realise that any attack on China and in extension. Iran is an attack on Russia as all three are firmly joined at the hip in the fight against Islamofascism.

[kazz]

Chinas trade policies are one sided in their favour. But it is mindless consumerism and the desire for people to want somehting that is cheap over something of quality. China has this down to a fine art and many of the things they make do last, longer than the so called quility items. See where your toaster is made, your kettle, your microwave. The poor people in China, or India or whatever are exploited so that richer counties can have cheap stuff, I have no problem with this as someone in the world will always be exploited. Its a fact of life. I dont see how America could replicate Chinas ability to churn out stuff in a hurry. How do you compete with a communist country with a massive drone army?

[Enigma]

The bottom line is that China can not be allowed to operate militarily or economically like they currently are.

They need to:

- stop building bases on disputed islands
- stop threatening ships in international waters
- stop manipulating their currency
- stop stealing intellectual property from American companies.

China also has very little bargaining power. The worst they could really do is bomb a few of our allies and try to crash our economy. But the trade off would be their own economy crashing while portions of their mainland get bombed to smithereens. We've had nuclear subs sitting off their coast for months.

The strength of their position rests solely on the fact that the previous administration let them push the envelope so far. They've basically been doing what they want for years, now you have to not only get them to stop doing that but accept something that's actually beneficial for us.

For instance, China throwing a fit over Taiwan while threatening two of America's oldest allies is absurd. It cracks me up that guys here are even taking that seriously.

Trump is approaching this with his usual style: make the biggest demand you can, then work from there. And in this case, China is so far from where they should be (in terms of what their neighbors and the US wants) that the demand is going to be particularly big.

I seriously doubt Trump wants to go to war with China over Taiwan. But if he pushes there, he can get them to let up in other areas. And it needs to happen.

[Arado]

Xi Jinping is now the main defender of globalism
http://www.forbes.com/sites/douglasbullo...75bb8c7531

Quote:

Chinese President Xi Jinping offered a vigorous defense of free trade at the World Economic Forum in Davos on Tuesday in a speech that underscored Beijing's desire to play a greater global role as the United States turns inward.

In the first appearance by a Chinese leader at the annual meeting of political leaders, CEOs and bankers in the Swiss Alps, Xi also cautioned other countries against blindly pursuing their national interests, in an apparent reference to the "America first" policies of Donald Trump.

Real estate mogul and former reality TV star Trump, who will be inaugurated as U.S. president on Friday, campaigned on a promise to confront China more aggressively on trade.

He has vowed to renegotiate or ditch multilateral trade agreements and protect U.S. industries from foreign competition by levying new tariffs on goods from abroad.

Xi likened protectionism to "locking oneself in a dark room" in the hopes of protecting oneself from danger, but in so doing, cutting off all "light and air".

"No one will emerge as a winner in a trade war," Xi said in a nearly hour-long speech in a large conference hall as U.S. Vice President Joe Biden looked on.

Also, recently Trump's Press Secretary said that the U.S. will not allow China to access the south China Sea artificial islands. Are people following this? Do they not realize that this could lead to war?

The comments on Breitbart are dangerously dismissive of China and their military. Sure, we can easily beat them in a conventional war for now, though for each year that goes by it will be much harder and expensive to project sufficient power to deter a much larger and advanced Chinese navy. Regardless, are the American people willing to take mass casualties for some faraway islands? The Chinese, who view it as their territory and whose government depends on not caving in for its legitimacy, are more willing.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-securi...china-sea/

Quote:

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying responded to remarks from White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer on Monday suggesting the United States would not allow China to continue illegally occupying territory in the South China Sea with a warning: “Be cautious.”
“The US is not a claimant in the related disputes in the South China Sea,” she told reporters during the Foreign Ministry’s daily press briefing Tuesday. “We urge the US side to respect the reality, to be cautious in its remarks and actions, so as to avoid undermining the peace and stability in the region.” She added that China’s occupation of most of the South China Sea — including territory claimed by Taiwan, Brunei, Vietnam, the Philippines, and Malaysia — was “reasonable and fair.”

“China’s resolve to protect its sovereignty and maritime rights in the South China Sea will not change,” she concluded.

“Hua said that China exerts indisputable sovereignty over the South China Sea islands and its adjacent waters, and China is firmly committed to safeguarding its own sovereignty and maritime rights,” according to the Chinese state media outlet Xinhua.

Seems like as Trump warms up to Russia, things with China are getting frosty. However, seems like while the forum has a decidedly pro-Russia and Pro-Putin bent, it is very quiet on China, which is going to play a much larger role in the world than Russia over the coming decades. Should we defend Taiwan? Should we stay out of the south China sea? Seems to be little consensus on these questions that have the potential to start a war. It's not as clear cut as globalism vs. nationalism for these issues in comparison with Ukraine and Syria.

[Foolsgo1d]

You think China is a threat? They fear their people more than anything and it wouldn't take too much to ignite that powder keg.

Starve them of oxygen and watch them wither.

[Arado]

The fake news Nytimes is now claiming that by honoring the one-China policy Trump has lost to Xi Jinping.

Quote:

By backing down in a telephone call with China’s president on his promise to review the status of Taiwan, President Trump may have averted a confrontation with America’s most powerful rival.

But in doing so, he handed China a victory and sullied his reputation with its leader, Xi Jinping, as a tough negotiator who ought to be feared, analysts said.

“Trump lost his first fight with Xi and he will be looked at as a paper tiger,” said Shi Yinhong, a professor of international relations at Renmin University of China, in Beijing, and an adviser to China’s State Council. “This will be interpreted in China as a great success, achieved by Xi’s approach of dealing with him.”

Mr. Trump’s reversal on Taiwan is likely to reinforce the views of those in China who see him as merely the latest American president to come into office talking tough on China, only to bend eventually to economic reality and adopt more cooperative policies. That could mean more difficult negotiations with Beijing on trade, North Korea and other issues.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/world....html?_r=0


In addition, recently statements from Bannon surfaced that he expects military conflict with China within ten years.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017...a-no-doubt

Quote:

The United States and China will fight a war within the next 10 years over islands in the South China Sea, and “there’s no doubt about that”. At the same time, the US will be in another “major” war in the Middle East.

Those are the views – nine months ago at least – of one of the most powerful men in Donald Trump’s administration, Steve Bannon, the former head of far-right news website Breitbart who is now chief strategist at the White House.

In the first weeks of Trump’s presidency, Bannon has emerged as a central figure. He was appointed to the “principals committee” of the National Security Council in a highly unusual move and was influential in the recent travel ban on citizens from seven Muslim-majority countries, overruling Department of Homeland Security officials who felt the order did not apply to green card holders.

“We’re going to war in the South China Sea in five to 10 years,” he said in March 2016. “There’s no doubt about that. They’re taking their sandbars and making basically stationary aircraft carriers and putting missiles on those. They come here to the United States in front of our face – and you understand how important face is – and say it’s an ancient territorial sea.”

Seems like there is a bit of push/pull in his China strategy. I'm assuming that he's waiting until his cabinet is in place and has more control over domestic issues before he starts challenging China? His call was to keep things calm for now until he can fully take them on.

Also when I read Breitbart comments on China articles, they're all over the place. I see comments ranging from we should stay out of Asia and cede it to China to the Communist party is the most evil government on the planet. Really curious to see what the eventual alt-right consensus on China is.

[jj90]

Ok, this is my 1st and hopefully last post in P&W.

First off, war with china/russia/insert country is a terrible idea. Are any of you going to fight? If not, and clearly none of you in P&W are because you are posting here instead of fighting insurgents in the middle of some shithole Middle Eastern country. If you think war is glorious, I'd suggest you sign up and do your service and see the realities of war.

The US may have enough nukes to level China 6x over, but you really only need 1 exchange of thermonuclear war to start Mad Max. Are you armchair hawks ready for that? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Does the US have legitimate grievances with China? Sure. Does (insert country) have legitimate grievances with the US? Absolutely. Global trade and politics is a 2 way street.

Foolsgo1d has it right. The biggest threat to the Chinese govt is the Chinese people. China has a history of overthrowing its rulers. The US while a much younger country, has 2. Overthrowing the ruling dynasty is just a footnote in the history of China.

And Enigma, I have to call you out on this point: China is a currency manipulator. Because the US doesn't manipulate it's currency via open mouth Fed operations, Fed funds rate, and policy right?

Lastly, while everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it, a lot of people are not qualified to comment accurately on China. If you are going to listen to commentary, are you going to listen to the American businessman who has decades of experience from living in China, or some hick from buttfuck nowhere in the Midwest?

[Foolsgo1d]

^ And the emotional replies keep coming

Trump must have upset a lot of people.

[The Beast1]

(02-12-2017 03:36 PM)jj90 Wrote:  

Ok, this is my 1st and hopefully last post in P&W.

First off, war with china/russia/insert country is a terrible idea. Are any of you going to fight? If not, and clearly none of you in P&W are because you are posting here instead of fighting insurgents in the middle of some shithole Middle Eastern country. If you think war is glorious, I'd suggest you sign up and do your service and see the realities of war.

The US may have enough nukes to level China 6x over, but you really only need 1 exchange of thermonuclear war to start Mad Max. Are you armchair hawks ready for that? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Does the US have legitimate grievances with China? Sure. Does (insert country) have legitimate grievances with the US? Absolutely. Global trade and politics is a 2 way street.

Foolsgo1d has it right. The biggest threat to the Chinese govt is the Chinese people. China has a history of overthrowing its rulers. The US while a much younger country, has 2. Overthrowing the ruling dynasty is just a footnote in the history of China.

And Enigma, I have to call you out on this point: China is a currency manipulator. Because the US doesn't manipulate it's currency via open mouth Fed operations, Fed funds rate, and policy right?

Lastly, while everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it, a lot of people are not qualified to comment accurately on China. If you are going to listen to commentary, are you going to listen to the American businessman who has decades of experience from living in China, or some hick from buttfuck nowhere in the Midwest?

[Deepdiver]

This is Peter Navarro's Youtube Channel "Death by China" with many eye opening videos that the MSM will never report on since their ((((Owners)))) make so much money trading er ah um selling out to Communist Phreaking Red Damned Chinese.

https://www.youtube.com/user/DeathByChina/videos

Full-length Death by China Documentary a real Eye Opener...
https://youtu.be/mMlmjXtnIXI

As was said above a new USA Sheriff is in town.

In the end, it is simple Communist Red China rattles the USA and our Allies Cages with North Krazy Korea

... And we rattle China's cage with new expanded Japanese bases, threats of bases in Taiwan and threats to allow Japan and South Korea stockpile their own Nuclear Weapons...

Imagine a Million baseball sized Casio G-Shock controlled ultra-reliable Toshiba micro nukes mounted on mil spec Mitsubishi Drones and swarmed into China and North Korea through their forests and trees dropping the baseball nukes so they sink in the sand and mud of their forests and rivers and the drone swarm returns from their "photo recon" missions and the Nukes lie dormant till the need to give the Chinese and NoK Communists a corrective attitude adjustment!

This is technology largely undetectable and far more lethal when swarmed than a few ICBMs that give away their locations like a bonfire when launched. Something for the ChiCommies to think about.

[jj90]

(02-12-2017 04:19 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

^ And the emotional replies keep coming

Trump must have upset a lot of people.

LOL, I like Trump over Hillary. Trump will negotiate with China and I don't think anyone here is blind to the fact that stacking hawks around himself gives him better leverage. Hillary would have been likely starting WW3.

The fact remains is you armchair hawks in here are pressing for a war when people are gonna die on both sides. You guys in P&W have completely lost it.

I'll ROLFLFLFFLLFOLOL when the next dead American soldier or citizen appears on the news from an terrorist attack and post a thread on that.

Let's see the triggering then.

[Foolsgo1d]

(02-12-2017 07:02 PM)jj90 Wrote:  

(02-12-2017 04:19 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

^ And the emotional replies keep coming

Trump must have upset a lot of people.

LOL, I like Trump over Hillary. Trump will negotiate with China and I don't think anyone here is blind to the fact that stacking hawks around himself gives him better leverage. Hillary would have been likely starting WW3.

The fact remains is you armchair hawks in here are pressing for a war when people are gonna die on both sides. You guys in P&W have completely lost it.

I'll ROLFLFLFFLLFOLOL when the next dead American soldier or citizen appears on the news from an terrorist attack and post a thread on that.

Let's see the triggering then.

Learn to read.

I never stated anything of the sort and you should take a look into what makes China tick, rather than proclaiming everyone with a stone to grind with China wants to nuke them.

We want them contained, thats it. Only a moron wants nukes to fly or conflicts to arise which can escalate. I'm far from a armchair hawk as you put it. I was a follower of the Syrian war for years and saw how we almost went WWIII twice.

I was initially puzzled as the why the rebels were so good at killing the Syrian army and why our co-called aerial bombardment of ISIS and other groups was coming to naught.

But then RVF and other useful sources helped me realise the world has a lot of monsters and they're not wearing black balaclavas standing over a beheaded prisoner.

Read up the unintended consequences warning from the US generals and Russian counterparts. Good ol' barry thought better of it and he was surrounded by the industrial complex.

I guess the time wasn't right.

People like you have lost it actually. You think Game will save your sorry ass when you are older and not ahead of the curve when more conflicts, war and demographic tensions increase? My worse case scenario is being in the UK or Europe, an old man and a conflict breaks out because someone through it was a brilliant idea to mess with the issues above.

You think Eastern EU, SA or Asia will be a nice hiding hole for you? We have 7.5 billion people on the planet and they all need and want something and guess what? They don't really get along that well.

China has the manpower and way of thinking no other country except perhaps India could match. The government is permanent and the people obey and do as they're told.

Doesn't take an armchair hawk to realise that reality.

They steal, lie and manipulate their way to the top and stab you in the back. They cannot be trusted.

But apparently that means I want to blow them the fuck up and get a nice tan according to you.

If you cannot handle this rather tame forum of politics and war may I suggest you don't have a LTR with kids? Women drive men insane more than politics I find.

[jj90]

(02-12-2017 08:27 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

People like you have lost it actually. You think Game will save your sorry ass when you are older and not ahead of the curve when more conflicts, war and demographic tensions increase? My worse case scenario is being in the UK or Europe, an old man and a conflict breaks out because someone through it was a brilliant idea to mess with the issues above.

You think Eastern EU, SA or Asia will be a nice hiding hole for you? We have 7.5 billion people on the planet and they all need and want something and guess what? They don't really get along that well.

China has the manpower and way of thinking no other country except perhaps India could match. The government is permanent and the people obey and do as they're told.

Doesn't take an armchair hawk to realise that reality.

They steal, lie and manipulate their way to the top and stab you in the back. They cannot be trusted.

But apparently that means I want to blow them the fuck up and get a nice tan according to you.

If you cannot handle this rather tame forum of politics and war may I suggest you don't have a LTR with kids? Women drive men insane more than politics I find.

Your point on confronting the situation is valid. There will always be war. Nobody denies that. If the end result of Trump's administration's policies is war with China, are you willing to pay the price personally? If not, STFU. The biggest cucks of all are those who would ask others to die for their own safety/ego/agenda.

Apparently, you didn't or couldn't read that key point that I was making. I'd ask you to go find a veteran close to your location and ask him if he thought war is glorious. He may say necessary, but never glorious.

I disagree that the govt in China is permanent. As you yourself said, the populace there is what the Chinese govt themselves really fear.

BTW, you can read all you want on RVF and google as much as you want. Unless you have spent actual time in China, around the Mainlanders, and the overseas Chinese themselves, you are no authority on China.

If you are such a person with intimate knowledge, then congrats! I hope you had a fun time. If not, you've heard the old quote about opinions are like assholes and smelling like one.

[TravelerKai]

(02-12-2017 09:18 AM)Arado Wrote:  

The fake news Nytimes is now claiming that by honoring the one-China policy Trump has lost to Xi Jinping.

Quote:

By backing down in a telephone call with China’s president on his promise to review the status of Taiwan, President Trump may have averted a confrontation with America’s most powerful rival.

But in doing so, he handed China a victory and sullied his reputation with its leader, Xi Jinping, as a tough negotiator who ought to be feared, analysts said.

“Trump lost his first fight with Xi and he will be looked at as a paper tiger,” said Shi Yinhong, a professor of international relations at Renmin University of China, in Beijing, and an adviser to China’s State Council. “This will be interpreted in China as a great success, achieved by Xi’s approach of dealing with him.”

Mr. Trump’s reversal on Taiwan is likely to reinforce the views of those in China who see him as merely the latest American president to come into office talking tough on China, only to bend eventually to economic reality and adopt more cooperative policies. That could mean more difficult negotiations with Beijing on trade, North Korea and other issues.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/world....html?_r=0


In addition, recently statements from Bannon surfaced that he expects military conflict with China within ten years.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017...a-no-doubt

Quote:

The United States and China will fight a war within the next 10 years over islands in the South China Sea, and “there’s no doubt about that”. At the same time, the US will be in another “major” war in the Middle East.

Those are the views – nine months ago at least – of one of the most powerful men in Donald Trump’s administration, Steve Bannon, the former head of far-right news website Breitbart who is now chief strategist at the White House.

In the first weeks of Trump’s presidency, Bannon has emerged as a central figure. He was appointed to the “principals committee” of the National Security Council in a highly unusual move and was influential in the recent travel ban on citizens from seven Muslim-majority countries, overruling Department of Homeland Security officials who felt the order did not apply to green card holders.

“We’re going to war in the South China Sea in five to 10 years,” he said in March 2016. “There’s no doubt about that. They’re taking their sandbars and making basically stationary aircraft carriers and putting missiles on those. They come here to the United States in front of our face – and you understand how important face is – and say it’s an ancient territorial sea.”

Seems like there is a bit of push/pull in his China strategy. I'm assuming that he's waiting until his cabinet is in place and has more control over domestic issues before he starts challenging China? His call was to keep things calm for now until he can fully take them on.

Also when I read Breitbart comments on China articles, they're all over the place. I see comments ranging from we should stay out of Asia and cede it to China to the Communist party is the most evil government on the planet. Really curious to see what the eventual alt-right consensus on China is.

He should have never questioned the treaty in the first place. That was not the best of moves.

All things considered he did get everyone's attention, which is what I think he was trying to do in the first place. It caused them and other to quickly reach out and put forth pitches to get things in motion for later on.

There is still alot of time to work on better trade deals, there is no rush on that, unlike the Obamacare replacement that has people pissed off right now.

[Enigma]

(02-12-2017 03:36 PM)jj90 Wrote:  

Ok, this is my 1st and hopefully last post in P&W.

First off, war with china/russia/insert country is a terrible idea. Are any of you going to fight? If not, and clearly none of you in P&W are because you are posting here instead of fighting insurgents in the middle of some shithole Middle Eastern country. If you think war is glorious, I'd suggest you sign up and do your service and see the realities of war.

The US may have enough nukes to level China 6x over, but you really only need 1 exchange of thermonuclear war to start Mad Max. Are you armchair hawks ready for that? Yeah, I didn't think so.

This is an absurd argument.

First of all, I specifically said that both Trump and China don't want war to happen. My prediction is that Trump will be firm but provide China enough opportunity to save face that they won't be willing to commit suicide by trying to take on the entire region in an open military conflict.

Second of all, it is China that has been pushing the issues, both territorially and economically, for years.

Again, the line of reasoning that China can:

- threaten the security and sovereignty of Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, etc.,
- try to forbid the US from using both international waters and the waters of their allies
- provide aid to North Korea while letting them threaten every country in the region
- steal American intellectual property

...but the US is wrong to criticize any of this, defend their decades long alliances, or talk to Taiwan, is absurd.

Like, it's literally dumb.

The US and their allies are PUSHING BACK against China. They are not the aggressors here.

Somehow the Overton Window has been shifted so far in some of your minds that you think it's wrong to NOT let China take territory from half a dozen countries.

By the way, considering I was in the Philippines when I made my original post in this thread (and I'm still in the region), I actually would be affected by a US/China war. Nice try though.

Quote:

Does the US have legitimate grievances with China? Sure. Does (insert country) have legitimate grievances with the US? Absolutely. Global trade and politics is a 2 way street.

"But the US does bad stuff too!" This is such a terrible, sophomoric argument that I'm tempted to ignore it completely.

The grievances against China -- made by nearly every country in East and Southeast Asia -- is that they're literally seizing parts of other countries, along with international waters, not making minor political transgressions.

Whatever "grievances" some Middle Eastern or other random country you're alluding to have with the US have nothing to do with the US, Japan, Indonesia, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines, the UN, etc. grievances with China.

Especially considering China is/was also in Syria and much of Africa.

Quote:

Foolsgo1d has it right. The biggest threat to the Chinese govt is the Chinese people. China has a history of overthrowing its rulers. The US while a much younger country, has 2. Overthrowing the ruling dynasty is just a footnote in the history of China.

Does the US have 300+ million people living in extreme poverty?

All of your arguments seem to be based on "the US does stuff too!"

Quote:

And Enigma, I have to call you out on this point: China is a currency manipulator. Because the US doesn't manipulate it's currency via open mouth Fed operations, Fed funds rate, and policy right?

Is the dollar pegged to the yuan? Does the US prevent its citizens from removing currency from the country?

No one gives a fuck what China does with their own currency -- except when it's done specifically to take advantage of the US in trade.

It's not antagonistic to threaten to stop trading with countries that are not willing to conduct trade in a way that's fair. It's common sense.

Quote:

Lastly, while everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it, a lot of people are not qualified to comment accurately on China. If you are going to listen to commentary, are you going to listen to the American businessman who has decades of experience from living in China, or some hick from buttfuck nowhere in the Midwest?

I've been living in Asia continually for over 3 years and have a strong, easily verifiable track record of accurate political predictions regarding the region.

But if my arguments were as weak as yours, I'd try to disqualify everyone else's opinion too.

Of course, how could anyone really "know" regional politics if we haven't heard it straight from China's state-controlled media, am I right?

[jj90]

(02-13-2017 02:29 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

The US and their allies are PUSHING BACK against China. They are not the aggressors here.

Somehow the Overton Window has been shifted so far in some of your minds that you think it's wrong to NOT let China take territory from half a dozen countries.

By the way, considering I was in the Philippines when I made my original post in this thread (and I'm still in the region), I actually would be affected by a US/China war. Nice try though.

All I am saying here is like Newton's 3rd law, when you push back there is an equal reaction. I'm hoping Trump can negotiate China down, but the God Emperor himself may not be able to control others around him. What if Mattis and/or Tillerson decides enough is enough?

You may be in the Phils, but you have a 1 way ticket out. Do your serving brothers and sisters have a choice if ordered into the South China Sea? Yeah, nice to have a plane ticket back right?

Quote:

Does the US have 300+ million people living in extreme poverty?

All of your arguments seem to be based on "the US does stuff too!"

Here's where you start to lose credibility. Have you been to Detroit recently? Or just any inner city ghetto? Perhaps certain counties in West Virginia?

Conversely, have you actually seen tier 2-3 hell even tier 4 cities in China? They are not as poor as you think. Try leaving the Phils once in awhile.

Quote:

Is the dollar pegged to the yuan? Does the US prevent its citizens from removing currency from the country?

No one gives a fuck what China does with their own currency -- except when it's done specifically to take advantage of the US in trade.

It's not antagonistic to threaten to stop trading with countries that are not willing to conduct trade in a way that's fair. It's common sense.

Funny, you didn't seem to call out other countries in the world who pegged their currencies vs the USD. Hmm, your bias is showing.

So let's get to the fundamental argument here: China pegs its currency to the US Dollar and has capital controls. But wait, didn't you yourself say no one gives a fuck what China does with its own currency?

Trump's import tax should/is going to level the playing field against China, so then why do you care why China does with it's currency? Hey if the US is self sufficient, shit they don't even to trade with China!

Quote:

I've been living in Asia continually for over 3 years and have a strong, easily verifiable track record of accurate political predictions regarding the region.

But if my arguments were as weak as yours, I'd try to disqualify everyone else's opinion too.

Of course, how could anyone really "know" regional politics if we haven't heard it straight from China's state-controlled media, am I right?

So what's your background? You have a business in Asia selling to multiple local economies? Including China?

And please, point me to your track record, I'd like to see this. But hold on, let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and you do have a great track record. Got any skin in the game? As I said, do you have businesses or property in Asia?

Your flippant point about listening to CCTV for info is laughable. To tie in my point here is: if you are some retired dude opining from his apartment in Manila, you need to find better uses for your time. If you are connected into the regional economy, then sure carry on brother.

I suspect it is not a case of the latter.

[Foolsgo1d]

(02-12-2017 10:45 PM)jj90 Wrote:  

Your point on confronting the situation is valid. There will always be war. Nobody denies that. If the end result of Trump's administration's policies is war with China, are you willing to pay the price personally? If not, STFU. The biggest cucks of all are those who would ask others to die for their own safety/ego/agenda.

Apparently, you didn't or couldn't read that key point that I was making. I'd ask you to go find a veteran close to your location and ask him if he thought war is glorious. He may say necessary, but never glorious.

I disagree that the govt in China is permanent. As you yourself said, the populace there is what the Chinese govt themselves really fear.

BTW, you can read all you want on RVF and google as much as you want. Unless you have spent actual time in China, around the Mainlanders, and the overseas Chinese themselves, you are no authority on China.

If you are such a person with intimate knowledge, then congrats! I hope you had a fun time. If not, you've heard the old quote about opinions are like assholes and smelling like one.

How do you cope with RVF when you get upset over something like this? I don't partake in the Jew arguments on here but I wonder how you'd react to it.

You chime in with this chip on your shoulder, perhaps from banging too many asian chicks and fell in love with them, I don't know what but you have a between the lines anger here.

I should go to see a veteran and ask what war looks like? Such an idiotic statement based upon emotion. I'm not a GI Joe wannabe from bumfuck nowhere.

Saying I should be a cuck for some so-called fantasy war you're envisioning with China is hilarious. there will be no war my friend, only dead and dying.

Britain had history with China long before the current political climate. I understand how they think and react, I don't need to go over there, fuck a few random chicks and eat rice with sauce on it to understand how a country ticks on a global scale or how they want outsiders to perceive them in a certain way. I have no interest in going to China as I dislike the government

In fact I plan on going to Mongolia instead. Nice place from what I've seen and read about.

You also should know mainlanders, Hk'ers and foreign based Chinese are different tribes. Foreign based Chinese from the motherland are either friendly or introverts towards other people outside of their race.

I can also tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese and korean writing too!

The Chinese Government is permanent except for the changes of regimes within the party where purges and imprisonment go hand in hand when the guy you're following gets replaced.

An ugly government presiding over an otherwise nice and docile country.

I believe one day there will be a flashpoint which escalates but to say Trump, a protectionist, is going to do it is just exactly what the hysterical leftwing facsists want you to believe.

The man is a one in a generation and we need him now.

[jj90]

(02-13-2017 04:29 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

How do you cope with RVF when you get upset over something like this? I don't partake in the Jew arguments on here but I wonder how you'd react to it.

You chime in with this chip on your shoulder, perhaps from banging too many asian chicks and fell in love with them, I don't know what but you have a between the lines anger here.

I should go to see a veteran and ask what war looks like? Such an idiotic statement based upon emotion. I'm not a GI Joe wannabe from bumfuck nowhere.

Saying I should be a cuck for some so-called fantasy war you're envisioning with China is hilarious. there will be no war my friend, only dead and dying.

Britain had history with China long before the current political climate. I understand how they think and react, I don't need to go over there, fuck a few random chicks and eat rice with sauce on it to understand how a country ticks on a global scale or how they want outsiders to perceive them in a certain way. I have no interest in going to China as I dislike the government

In fact I plan on going to Mongolia instead. Nice place from what I've seen and read about.

LOLOOLOL, I have Foolsgo1d on record saying he has never been to China but is an expert on it. ROFLROLF

Hey Foolsgo1d, once I met a British guy and he was a poor sap of a man. In fact, calling him a cocksucking loser would be an insult to gays. This dude was so pathetic with his uneven teeth and social awkwardness even dogs pissed on him.

Now I've never been to Britain, but he is probably stereotypical of all British males right? James Bond was a Scottish guy if I recall.

Then this guy tells me, the country is overrun with Muslims who harass and rape their women and the males just take it. The women are fat and bitchy, and prefer the foreign dick coming in to the native British guys. He thinks about suicide all the time and cuts himself.

LOL. If the above sounds idiotic, now you know how you sound!

You cuck Foolsgo1d. That was likely you!

(02-13-2017 04:29 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

You also should know mainlanders, Hk'ers and foreign based Chinese are different tribes. Foreign based Chinese from the motherland are either friendly or introverts towards other people outside of their race.

I can also tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese and korean writing too!

The Chinese Government is permanent except for the changes of regimes within the party where purges and imprisonment go hand in hand when the guy you're following gets replaced.

An ugly government presiding over an otherwise nice and docile country.

I believe one day there will be a flashpoint which escalates but to say Trump, a protectionist, is going to do it is just exactly what the hysterical leftwing facsists want you to believe.

The man is a one in a generation and we need him now.

You can tell the difference between Chinese, Korean and Japanese writing! Would you like a cookie? Or how about your balls back? Wait, let me call up Ahmed in the East End for those.

About the different tribes: then you should know that the overseas Chinese, defined as Chinese who left before 1949, dislike to outright despise the mainlanders. Even within China, those from say Shanghai/Beijing, are not well received elsewhere.

The Chinese govt has been permanent for a little over 60 years now. Because you know they were so permanent before with all those previous dynasties right?

I'm all for the God Emperor, Trump's been great for the portfolio!

[Enigma]

@jj90:

Roughly 300 million in China live on $3.10 or less a day. That's less than $100 a month. Even unemployed people on welfare in the US have a MUCH BETTER standard of living than that. These are basic facts.

Have YOU actually been in "any inner city ghetto"? I've lived in one. We had hot water throughout the house (as required by law), central heating and air, insulated walls, dishwasher, microwave, full-sized stove and oven, a flat screen TV, etc.

That was a place that cost $500/month for a two-bedroom duplex in a Section 8 neighborhood, basically the floor for rental prices in the US. Meanwhile, even many higher-end homes and condos in parts of Asia don't have all of these features, including hot water in the kitchen (which is, again, required by law in the US).

And then you still have to account for the fact that households are much larger in most of Asia compared to the US.

Comparing "poverty" in the US to poverty in China -- and most of the world -- is apples to oranges, and shows you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

This is why you desperately try to disqualify everyone else from commenting -- your arguments suck.

But continue you with your meltdown.