Quote: (04-17-2019 09:03 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

It's an absolute humiliation of ethnic french and christians, how Macron is handling this.

In some fairness, the architect of the fallen spire was an avowed anti-clerical secular republican and possibly an atheist, who celebrated the revolution prying art out of the hands of the Church. Man of his time.

Yet he was also one of the foremost experts on French Gothic design, and firmly believed he was fulfilling the vision of the medieval architects, helping them to complete what they could not with their own tools and materials.

There is no earthly reason this should be in the hands of foreign architects. Let every university in the provinces send their brightest student and make some young French architects famous. Macron's making a bold gambit to try to salvage his legacy with a moonshot to repair a national monument, and it's going to be a mess that only proves how out of touch he is with what the Yellow Vests are angry about.

Quote: (04-17-2019 09:03 AM)Jetset Wrote:  

Quote: (04-16-2019 11:51 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  

I love cold hard concrete spaces. To be filled by light. And by great furniture. Water. Sound. The human imagination. Protected by those big concrete walls. No sound penetrates. No light. Only what you want to let through. Protected from the elements. No rain or water, no wind, no storm. Cavemen would have killed to have lived in a moulded concrete cave like this, for that is all they are. And I like that. But I'm a savage. It's not for everyone. I just see it as a passing point until we can build real homes, real structures to live in.

Quote: (04-17-2019 08:00 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

The grey of its concrete has been one of the greatest contributors to its failure of aesthetics aside from lack of proper craftsmanship.

To me, the failure of the brutalist designs I've seen is that it feels so self-referential, circular. Attempts to compress and release the space fail because there's often nothing to really release the observer to: just more of itself.

If you want to see grey concrete done thoughtfully and warmly, visit the Arizona Biltmore someday, a resort designed by a student of Frank Lloyd Wright:







They had quite a bit of fun with how the light would interact with the property and it's strangely calming to walk around the grounds, and the "cave-like" feel really works for it. It pulls in enough of the landscape and of tradition that it's a bit like some old Pueblo man saw pictures of a Pompeii and decided to take his best shot at recreating it from memory.

Looks good. But needs to also hold up under the glare of sunlight just like how medieval and ancient buildings are able to do. Lots of buildings I see in Sydney have pretty lights at night but look awful during the day.

And grey just doesn't look good under the glare of the daylight sun.

Architecture is physical music. As music is auditory architecture.

What makes classical music excellent sound architecture. Is what makes classical well done architecture excellent physical music.

Is that a resort or a Minecraft theme park?

Part of the reason for this ugly architecture is the pride of your average citizen. The arrogance, the narcissism - the love of movies which whisper to the psyche "You're just like Ironman and Captain America, heroism doesn't require sacrifice, all men are equal, your opinion is as good as anyone else." I remember speaking to a Protestant who argued that having a church in a strip-mall was more beautiful than a Cathedral because "God is everywhere." I wouldn't be surprised if us Catholics have to move to the catacombs and living rooms within our lifetime, but even if we do, we'll make those places beautiful out of respect for the Father; not tawdry and entertaining like Protestant youth centres.

The problem with beauty is that it humbles, as well as uplifts. All people recognize instinctually that Notre Dame is beautiful, almost unearthly in its beauty; but behold such beauty in person and regularly humbles oneself. When I see a typical modern church or home, I know that I could build it myself, with a few manuals; when I see a Cathedral like Notre Dame I'm awestruck by the sheer breadth of knowledge that went into it. It's not just the difficulty of the stone masonry, and the brilliance of the scaffolding crew - a building like that requires a deep understanding of mythology, Biblical scholarship, mathematics - and on and on. It is beyond me to create such a structure.

If we are to have beautiful cities, we require leaders who are elites, true elites, not the scheming mid-wits we have now. But in this era of mass-democracy and equality, where every man's opinion is equal to every other, elites are despised. Polymaths are derided. The mediocre, filled with pride, jealousy, and envy for their social betters, elect mediocre men and are then surprised that we have mediocre buildings.

A return to hierarchy, and an acceptance of one's place in the hierarchy, is a prerequisite to having a beautiful and functional civilization. Your average man spits on his betters, and declares himself the equal to all of them. They rebel against God, and claim that every man can interpret scripture in his own way, creating a religion of man with the veneer of holiness. These people are rotting and dying, one by one, without God to sustain them. Once these wretches have been wiped from the slate, then - and only then - might we start rebuilding a civilization that's worthy of man and God. Until then, all we can do is practice humbleness, patience, and love.

Quote: (04-17-2019 04:34 AM)Deusleveult Wrote:  

Quote: (04-17-2019 03:34 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  

Not to derail the thread but 'renovations' and 'improvements' on Churches, from what I've seen, are used as excuses to either desecrate by addition, or evacuate and replace. You either turn them into places of Diversity worship, whatever shade it happens to be, or you turn them into museums - or both.

In the neighbourhood where I grew up, mass was held in a sort of annex built between apartment buildings, despite being very, very close to several old and beautiful churches and chapels - it could be said that you can't find a bigger concentration in Lisbon than down that hill. Yet all these old churches and chapels would open only on special days, such as Easter or Christmas. For the regular chumps that actually wanted to attend mass regularly? Go in this dark rectangular building, and share the back with some karate lessons or something. It wasn't great, but it wasn't that bad.

Eventually, people agitated to get a church built nearby. Worst mistake they made - they should have been happy to have a place to worship at all. The annex might have been small, badly lit and not very beautiful, but its simple nature did not contradict God or His natural order. They replaced it with this affront to everything holy:



I know stuff like this happens all across the West. And I have no doubt in my mind they will try to desecrate Notre Dame in whatever way they can - if they do it to any small church, how much hand rubbing and lip licking has been going on in globalist circles just imagining how they will deface that mighty and central symbol of Christendom.

I was actually thinking the same thing.

Hearing Macron say he wants to "rebuild it in the next five years" and "even more beautiful".
Seeing the post of France24 on Twitter stating that they want to rebuild it "in a way consistent with our modern diverse nation".
Seeing the huge donations of french billionaires and major french companies like Total and even Apple.

One thing that doesn't lie is the way they talk about the cathedral. They all talk about the disaster of losing such a building, the architecture and the history.
But notice that none of them talk about religion, christianity, catholicism and God. For Tim Cook of Apple Notre Dame is "a symbol of hope", typical left-wing, feel good and empty giberrish.

They want to desecrate it and it will be a new step for the one world religion that the globalists want.
I wouldn't be surprise that pope Francis will come at the end of the construction to bless it with prominent imams, rabbis and such.

Let's see if I am right.

Its no different to Christmas in that regard, how often do they mention Jesus Christ with regard to it in MSM, its like the moneymakers setting up in the temple of consumerism for 3 months at the end of every year.

My parents often mentioned this to me when I was younger, and it didn't bother because I had my family around and never thought that as I got older, and everybody became a la carte Catholics how cold the holiday could really be.

So Macron called for an international architect for the rebuild. I am calling it now, it will be a jew.

Quote: (04-17-2019 10:28 AM)Aurini Wrote:  

The problem with beauty is that it humbles, as well as uplifts.

I think you're on to something with this.

Quote: (04-17-2019 09:48 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Is that a resort or a Minecraft theme park?

Why not both?

In all seriousness, it was part of a west coast style in the 1920s-30s called Mayan Revival. The blocks were cast on-site from the surrounding earth. Part of an experimental movement to develop a natively "North American" style after World War I.







I like some of it, but the maintenance must be unholy.

Quote: (04-17-2019 08:00 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

If brutalism can outdo the Catherine Palace in Russia and the Versailles Palace in France and the historic Notre Dame.

Then I will be a convert. But so far. Brutalist architecture has proven to be a near constant fail in terms of Aesthetics.

Unless its fails to be ugly and even looks sublime like the starry night sky. It will have its detractors.

The grey of its concrete has been one of the greatest contributors to its failure of aesthetics aside from lack of proper craftsmanship.

If Rigsby was talking about Roman concrete, he might have been onto something, but modern concrete is a disaster in every way.






It just looks terrible gray and bleak, and there is almost always weird water stains. Even the little holes in every concrete building left behind by the form-work look terrible.

Structurally they are a nightmare because they are reinforced by rebar, and rebar and concrete expand and contract at different rates when exposed to moisture, so unlike a 2000 year old Roman building, you got a God awful modern structure designed to self destruct after a few decades.



Concrete buildings are the triumph of the grandiose designer over the human being and are cold and inhospitable. They are a sop to the construction industry who want to everything quick and dirty and then do it all over in a few years.

Also, combining concrete with other materials can be a disaster because wood in contact with concrete will usually end up deteriorating because of how concrete and cement hold in moisture.

A natural builder on concrete:

Quote:Quote:

First, please put concrete out of your head, (and anyone else you know of that might consider it.) Portland cements (even trace amounts in a mix) contribute to moisture issues in vintage and earth (natural) based architecture. The always have a dank and musty smell and feeling to them. The best analogy I can offer is the difference between a wet cotton sweater and one made of fleece or wool. Portland based masonry acts like a "wet cotton sweater," and hold moisture (and mildew as well as other "nastiness" that gets into it) while a cob of lime masonry product act like a piece of fleece or wool. It might get wet but it will move that moisture out and away to evaporate, so even if wet you stay warm.

https://permies.com/t/28613/Lime-floor-c...-cob-house

Quote: (04-17-2019 09:03 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

I hear that it's just in that Macron has said that they will make an "international competition" among "international architects" to rebuild the Notre Dame.

Maybe you french can find a chinese or what about argentine jew.

This shit might just about push me to book a ticket to Paris and join the yellow vests.

It's an absolute humiliation of ethnic french and christians, how Macron is handling this.

Argentina hasn't has architects since the 1920's, maybe the 1930's at the latest.

Quote: (04-17-2019 10:28 AM)Aurini Wrote:  

Part of the reason for this ugly architecture is the pride of your average citizen. The arrogance, the narcissism - the love of movies which whisper to the psyche "You're just like Ironman and Captain America, heroism doesn't require sacrifice, all men are equal, your opinion is as good as anyone else." I remember speaking to a Protestant who argued that having a church in a strip-mall was more beautiful than a Cathedral because "God is everywhere." I wouldn't be surprised if us Catholics have to move to the catacombs and living rooms within our lifetime, but even if we do, we'll make those places beautiful out of respect for the Father; not tawdry and entertaining like Protestant youth centres.

The problem with beauty is that it humbles, as well as uplifts. All people recognize instinctually that Notre Dame is beautiful, almost unearthly in its beauty; but behold such beauty in person and regularly humbles oneself. When I see a typical modern church or home, I know that I could build it myself, with a few manuals; when I see a Cathedral like Notre Dame I'm awestruck by the sheer breadth of knowledge that went into it. It's not just the difficulty of the stone masonry, and the brilliance of the scaffolding crew - a building like that requires a deep understanding of mythology, Biblical scholarship, mathematics - and on and on. It is beyond me to create such a structure.

If we are to have beautiful cities, we require leaders who are elites, true elites, not the scheming mid-wits we have now. But in this era of mass-democracy and equality, where every man's opinion is equal to every other, elites are despised. Polymaths are derided. The mediocre, filled with pride, jealousy, and envy for their social betters, elect mediocre men and are then surprised that we have mediocre buildings.

A return to hierarchy, and an acceptance of one's place in the hierarchy, is a prerequisite to having a beautiful and functional civilization. Your average man spits on his betters, and declares himself the equal to all of them. They rebel against God, and claim that every man can interpret scripture in his own way, creating a religion of man with the veneer of holiness. These people are rotting and dying, one by one, without God to sustain them. Once these wretches have been wiped from the slate, then - and only then - might we start rebuilding a civilization that's worthy of man and God. Until then, all we can do is practice humbleness, patience, and love.

Whatever sits at that site is now the Ruins of Notre Dame. The French state claims title to the property and has been "allowing" the Catholic church lease it...

Between the despot Macron's occupation government and the Argentine papacy... whatever they end up calling a rebuilt is just going to move Notre Dame further into ruin.

The Oak to rebuild doesn't exist. Not in Europe, likely not in the Americas. The green crowd will make sure that if a forest's worth of suitable trees can be found anywhere... enough will be disqualified because "muh nature reserve"... Then there's the traditional process taking years to get the beams ready to set.

To hit Macron's five year target will almost certainly require engineered wood products or steel framing to approach the original look. Ferro cement or "steel and glass" for a modernist turd.

EU bureaucrats are likely going to fuck up the timeline over the lead roof, and the lead roof will provide shitgnomes another route to force an "apple store" rheeee-interpretation. Consider leaded solder is essential to producing long life, repairable electronics (with the lower melting point faulty components can removed and replaced non-destrctively, unleaded solder means shit gets junked over faulty components because the high temperatures tend to be destructive... Envirorast fail) and the entire empire of shit is aligned against an actual restoration.

The only winning move is referring to the former Notre Dame as "the ruins of Notre Dame", pushing that meme to emphasize the cultural loss and the illegitimacy of current European regimes. This is the meme to push in discussions. There's room to interpret "ruins" according to the reader's background, but all readings emphasize the loss.

Quote: (04-17-2019 11:53 AM)BBinger Wrote:  

To hit Macron's five year target will almost certainly require engineered wood products or steel framing to approach the original look. Ferro cement or "steel and glass" for a modernist turd.

The Parthenon went up in nine years using iron age tools during a war. The repairs have been going on for, what, four decades?

There's no way in hell they're hitting that target. 50/50 says they'll still be fighting about how to start in the 2022 elections. The unions and the Yellow Vests alike will block work over the most random disagreements imaginable.

People keep saying we don't have the trees anymore.

Any carpenters or designers want to weigh in?

It seems like you can laminate your way to any size timber nowadays?

Can't you?

Quote: (04-17-2019 12:48 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

People keep saying we don't have the trees anymore.

Any carpenters or designers want to weigh in?

It seems like you can laminate your way to any size timber nowadays?

Can't you?

Most buildings of that size have a forest somewhere nearby that had trees planted specifically for the use of its timber. Certainly the Notre Dame has some 400 year old oak trees nearby that are meant for the replacement of its beams.

Quote:[url=https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/1118500028966940672?s=21][/url]

Heartiste agrees that Macron is deliberately humiliating white french:

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2019/04/...-quisling/

Quote:Quote:

Understand what Maricon does here. He knows the native stock French are fed up with the Diversity™ and he knows the Notre Dame fire steels hearts against the invading horde. His using this incendiary language right at the moment his subjects are inflamed with nationalist passion is a deliberate provocation: Macron rubs his Globohomo depravity in the faces of White Frenchmen, and pushes their noses into the filth.

Why not Notre Dame though?

We already accepted last summer that the French national team is open to all who can manage to swindle their way into a citizenship.

What's the difference?

Quote: (04-17-2019 01:31 PM)Laner Wrote:  

Quote: (04-17-2019 12:48 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

People keep saying we don't have the trees anymore.

Any carpenters or designers want to weigh in?

It seems like you can laminate your way to any size timber nowadays?

Can't you?

Most buildings of that size have a forest somewhere nearby that had trees planted specifically for the use of its timber. Certainly the Notre Dame has some 400 year old oak trees nearby that are meant for the replacement of its beams.

You can laminate shit to arbitrary sizes yes. Part of the wonder of Notre Dame before becoming ruins was the craft of making the wonder without.

Whether or not a forest was planted, such things have to survive the intervening history. Revolutions, a couple Napoleons, a couple world wars, destructive tree huggers, previous rennovations,...

The craftsmanship to rebuild with the same sort of quality likely doesn't exist in volume. Not in the price and demographic range a Macron government is willing to hire. Nothing today's France can do makes Notre Dame post 4-15 anything other than the ruin of a great structure. Maybe an elegant ruin. The question is how much are they going to defile the ruin.

How can an investigation bring material proofs about the origins of the fire?

For the moment we still don't have proofs and maybe never will since the fire has probably destroy them.

Notre Dame was one of the most visited building in the world (the most?), and the people in charge have installed top notch electrical materials to avoid fire ignition.

As far as I know, the construction workers were only at the step where they put the scaffolding.

A scaffolding makes it easier to escalate a building, but that doesn't constitute a proof that a criminal has started the fire.

Below, you can see drone footages of Notre Dame, the condition of the walls are still unknown, maybe some parts can fall on the head of an investigator.

Quote: (04-17-2019 02:36 PM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  

Tell me about it. WTF is this piece of shit? :

Quote: (04-17-2019 12:08 PM)Jetset Wrote:  

Quote: (04-17-2019 11:53 AM)BBinger Wrote:  

To hit Macron's five year target will almost certainly require engineered wood products or steel framing to approach the original look. Ferro cement or "steel and glass" for a modernist turd.

The Parthenon went up in nine years using iron age tools during a war. The repairs have been going on for, what, four decades?

There's no way in hell they're hitting that target. 50/50 says they'll still be fighting about how to start in the 2022 elections. The unions and the Yellow Vests alike will block work over the most random disagreements imaginable.

I couldn't help but think how this would have gone down with Trump in the U.S.

So far, everything I've read or heard has given, more or less, a 10-20 year timeline for reconstruction.

Macron says it'll be done in half that (5 years).

People are indifferent or are like "alright, Macron. 5 years? That sounds great!"

If Trump was like, "I'll do it in half the time (under budget, ahead of schedule!)" people would be like "Drumpf, the fool again! Always thinks he can do better! Its impossible! He was bankrupt FOUR TIMES! 5 years??!! Its over for Orange Man!"

Interesting, the differences in reactions.

Reading between Macron's tea leaves I have the feeling that Notre Dame will be re-built as an "inter-faith" holy site. All are welcome!

Here we go.

Quote:Quote:

Prime Minister Edouard Philippe told reporters they hoped for "a new spire that is adapted to the techniques and the challenges of our era".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47...HFtGrxrGxA

Quote: (04-17-2019 03:50 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

Interesting, the differences in reactions.

You're right that they're mostly avoiding openly calling him an idiot, but it seems pretty mixed, honestly. The Telegraph this morning quoted the Master Mason at York Minster saying they're looking at ten, easy, and described Macron's promise as "impossible". NBC quoted a French trades organization as projecting ten years just to train workers. Bloomberg quoted a conservation architect saying no less than 15 years, and that it might take up to five years just to complete the assessment of how bad the structural damage is:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...after-fire

I read the polite reporting as "LOL, OK, go for it". If he's serious, this is going to be his Vietnam War, and he's never going to be allowed to forget that he said it.

I don't think he fully grasps that people aren't moving on from their dissatisfaction. He thinks he can briefly unite everyone and they'll have a change of heart and abandon the protests. Instead, the Yellow Vests will just be standing there staring at his punchable face, asking where the new spire is.

Quote: (04-17-2019 03:59 PM)EwartGrogan Wrote:  

Here we go.

Quote:Quote:

Prime Minister Edouard Philippe told reporters they hoped for "a new spire that is adapted to the techniques and the challenges of our era".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47...HFtGrxrGxA

Macron the psycho wants to make history as the French Nero with the rebuilding of Notre Dame

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Rome

Quote:Quote:

Nero didn't help the accusations of him starting the fire by quickly reconstructing the part of the city that had burned in the Greek style and beginning work on his new palace.

Quote: (04-17-2019 10:28 AM)Aurini Wrote:  

Part of the reason for this ugly architecture is the pride of your average citizen. The arrogance, the narcissism - the love of movies which whisper to the psyche "You're just like Ironman and Captain America, heroism doesn't require sacrifice, all men are equal, your opinion is as good as anyone else." I remember speaking to a Protestant who argued that having a church in a strip-mall was more beautiful than a Cathedral because "God is everywhere." I wouldn't be surprised if us Catholics have to move to the catacombs and living rooms within our lifetime, but even if we do, we'll make those places beautiful out of respect for the Father; not tawdry and entertaining like Protestant youth centres.

The problem with beauty is that it humbles, as well as uplifts. All people recognize instinctually that Notre Dame is beautiful, almost unearthly in its beauty; but behold such beauty in person and regularly humbles oneself. When I see a typical modern church or home, I know that I could build it myself, with a few manuals; when I see a Cathedral like Notre Dame I'm awestruck by the sheer breadth of knowledge that went into it. It's not just the difficulty of the stone masonry, and the brilliance of the scaffolding crew - a building like that requires a deep understanding of mythology, Biblical scholarship, mathematics - and on and on. It is beyond me to create such a structure.

If we are to have beautiful cities, we require leaders who are elites, true elites, not the scheming mid-wits we have now. But in this era of mass-democracy and equality, where every man's opinion is equal to every other, elites are despised. Polymaths are derided. The mediocre, filled with pride, jealousy, and envy for their social betters, elect mediocre men and are then surprised that we have mediocre buildings.

A return to hierarchy, and an acceptance of one's place in the hierarchy, is a prerequisite to having a beautiful and functional civilization. Your average man spits on his betters, and declares himself the equal to all of them. They rebel against God, and claim that every man can interpret scripture in his own way, creating a religion of man with the veneer of holiness. These people are rotting and dying, one by one, without God to sustain them. Once these wretches have been wiped from the slate, then - and only then - might we start rebuilding a civilization that's worthy of man and God. Until then, all we can do is practice humbleness, patience, and love.

What's interesting to me about all this is that it's part of the long con by the elites. The middle class average person is much less likely to rise up when he's being placated by electronic drugs and told he's special/unique/equal to the best.

They don't want us to figure out that we've been sold a bill of goods.

Quote: (04-17-2019 04:17 PM)balybary Wrote:  

Macron the psycho wants to make history as the French Nero with the rebuilding of Notre Dame

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Rome

Quote:Quote:

Nero didn't help the accusations of him starting the fire by quickly reconstructing the part of the city that had burned in the Greek style and beginning work on his new palace.

Fun fact, possibly relevant here:

When Romans finally got sick of his shit, Nero's successors buried his palace then built new public facilities on top of it to return the land to the people.

I have no idea how many slaves you need in order to bury an entire palace using first-century technology, it must have been a vast project, but they hated him so much they figured it out.

(It's just behind the Colosseum. On weekends only, you can grab a hard hat and an archaeologist will take you underground and give you a tour of the dig. It's actually a great thing to do in Rome and something most visitors miss.)