I put on as much weight in my first 2 years lifting properly as in the subsequent 5 years. Newbie gains are a huge thing, especially if you're underweight to begin with (like a lot of us were).

Quote: (03-06-2019 02:28 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

It took you 10 years to add 40 pounds of muscle?
It took me 2 years to add 20 pounds of muscle.

I'm 52 brah. My son 15 started lifting 3 months ago, I'm his trainer, he's put on 13lbs and has cuts now - but his T levels are like 1500, mine are like 650-700 outstanding for an old fuck but still nowhere near the mini-cycle younger guys are on in puberty into their 20's.

Mind you, when I began lifting I was 200lbs @36% bf - standard dad bod, I had Stage IV hypertension, was metabolically deranged among other things. Different people build their bodies differently. @savonarola - how old were you when you put on that weight and are you or were you natty?

Quote: (03-06-2019 09:06 PM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 02:28 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

It took you 10 years to add 40 pounds of muscle?
It took me 2 years to add 20 pounds of muscle.

I'm 52 brah. My son 15 started lifting 3 months ago, I'm his trainer, he's put on 13lbs and has cuts now - but his T levels are like 1500, mine are like 650-700 outstanding for an old fuck but still nowhere near the mini-cycle younger guys are on in puberty into their 20's.

Mind you, when I began lifting I was 200lbs @36% bf - standard dad bod, I had Stage IV hypertension, was metabolically deranged among other things. Different people build their bodies differently. @savonarola - how old were you when you put on that weight and are you or were you natty?

I'm 43 now, but I was 39-41 y.o. when I went from 195ish to 220, all of it muscle, lifting 3-4 days a week, and eating hella protein. Body fat dropped from 15-16% to approximately 12-13%. At that point I pulled back because, well, mission accomplished. I do mostly athletic stuff now, including HIIT body weight exercises, rowing machine, sprinting, soccer, swimming, etc. But each week I still hit 1 session upper and 1 session lower.

Funny thing is, during those two years, I never focused on peacock muscles like bicep and pecs. I was laser focused on lats, traps, glutes, etc -- you know, real strength. So now I've decided to get peacocky and do pretty much only bi, tri, and pec workouts before summer rolls around.

Re: natty, yes, absolutely. I don't use any drugs of any kind, not even ibuprofen. My only supplement is zinc.

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:45 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 09:06 PM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 02:28 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

It took you 10 years to add 40 pounds of muscle?
It took me 2 years to add 20 pounds of muscle.

I'm 52 brah. My son 15 started lifting 3 months ago, I'm his trainer, he's put on 13lbs and has cuts now - but his T levels are like 1500, mine are like 650-700 outstanding for an old fuck but still nowhere near the mini-cycle younger guys are on in puberty into their 20's.

Mind you, when I began lifting I was 200lbs @36% bf - standard dad bod, I had Stage IV hypertension, was metabolically deranged among other things. Different people build their bodies differently. @savonarola - how old were you when you put on that weight and are you or were you natty?

I'm 43 now, but I was 39-41 y.o. when I went from 195ish to 220, all of it muscle, lifting 3-4 days a week, and eating hella protein. Body fat dropped from 15-16% to approximately 12-13%. At that point I pulled back because, well, mission accomplished. I do mostly athletic stuff now, including HIIT body weight exercises, rowing machine, sprinting, soccer, swimming, etc. But each week I still hit 1 session upper and 1 session lower.

Funny thing is, during those two years, I never focused on peacock muscles like bicep and pecs. I was laser focused on lats, traps, glutes, etc -- you know, real strength. So now I've decided to get peacocky and do pretty much only bi, tri, and pec workouts before summer rolls around.

Re: natty, yes, absolutely. I don't use any drugs of any kind, not even ibuprofen. My only supplement is zinc.

A lot of the big boys dial it back once mission has been accomplished. I am consistently one of the best looking guys in the gym but i can't lift my way out of a paper bag now. Compare that to when i was 255lbs 20%bf and you would have thought i was on cycle i was so strong. I took up boxing around the same time i dropped my bodyfat to 12-13%. I think the fast twitch muscles required for the sport overwhelmed my slowtwitch fibers and thus i can't activate them the same way i could 5 years ago. It could be my central nervous system is exhausted from 20 years of consistent training but i doubt it.

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:58 PM)quaker13 Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:45 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 09:06 PM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 02:28 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

It took you 10 years to add 40 pounds of muscle?
It took me 2 years to add 20 pounds of muscle.

I'm 52 brah. My son 15 started lifting 3 months ago, I'm his trainer, he's put on 13lbs and has cuts now - but his T levels are like 1500, mine are like 650-700 outstanding for an old fuck but still nowhere near the mini-cycle younger guys are on in puberty into their 20's.

Mind you, when I began lifting I was 200lbs @36% bf - standard dad bod, I had Stage IV hypertension, was metabolically deranged among other things. Different people build their bodies differently. @savonarola - how old were you when you put on that weight and are you or were you natty?

I'm 43 now, but I was 39-41 y.o. when I went from 195ish to 220, all of it muscle, lifting 3-4 days a week, and eating hella protein. Body fat dropped from 15-16% to approximately 12-13%. At that point I pulled back because, well, mission accomplished. I do mostly athletic stuff now, including HIIT body weight exercises, rowing machine, sprinting, soccer, swimming, etc. But each week I still hit 1 session upper and 1 session lower.

Funny thing is, during those two years, I never focused on peacock muscles like bicep and pecs. I was laser focused on lats, traps, glutes, etc -- you know, real strength. So now I've decided to get peacocky and do pretty much only bi, tri, and pec workouts before summer rolls around.

Re: natty, yes, absolutely. I don't use any drugs of any kind, not even ibuprofen. My only supplement is zinc.

A lot of the big boys dial it back once mission has been accomplished. I am consistently one of the best looking guys in the gym but i can't lift my way out of a paper bag now. Compare that to when i was 255lbs 20%bf and you would have thought i was on cycle i was so strong. I took up boxing around the same time i dropped my bodyfat to 12-13%. I think the fast twitch muscles required for the sport overwhelmed my slowtwitch fibers and thus i can't activate them the same way i could 5 years ago. It could be my central nervous system is exhausted from 20 years of consistent training but i doubt it.

Maybe it's time to find a totally different exercise. I'm a big believer in changing up your routines throughout your life. It's good to challenge your body in new ways.
For example:
I spent much of my 30s doing cross-training in the mountains. Great for VO2 max, heart health, agility, stamina.
I started my 40s (as noted) doing pure weight-lifting. I've since added soccer and volleyball, and I love both.
And my 50s? I don't know. Maybe competitive swimming.

Depends on your goals. If you're new to lifting and growing, then you're better off continuing that routine. if you're not growing, then better step back.

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:45 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 09:06 PM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 02:28 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

It took you 10 years to add 40 pounds of muscle?
It took me 2 years to add 20 pounds of muscle.

I'm 52 brah. My son 15 started lifting 3 months ago, I'm his trainer, he's put on 13lbs and has cuts now - but his T levels are like 1500, mine are like 650-700 outstanding for an old fuck but still nowhere near the mini-cycle younger guys are on in puberty into their 20's.

Mind you, when I began lifting I was 200lbs @36% bf - standard dad bod, I had Stage IV hypertension, was metabolically deranged among other things. Different people build their bodies differently. @savonarola - how old were you when you put on that weight and are you or were you natty?

I'm 43 now, but I was 39-41 y.o. when I went from 195ish to 220, all of it muscle, lifting 3-4 days a week, and eating hella protein. Body fat dropped from 15-16% to approximately 12-13%. At that point I pulled back because, well, mission accomplished. I do mostly athletic stuff now, including HIIT body weight exercises, rowing machine, sprinting, soccer, swimming, etc. But each week I still hit 1 session upper and 1 session lower.

Funny thing is, during those two years, I never focused on peacock muscles like bicep and pecs. I was laser focused on lats, traps, glutes, etc -- you know, real strength. So now I've decided to get peacocky and do pretty much only bi, tri, and pec workouts before summer rolls around.

Re: natty, yes, absolutely. I don't use any drugs of any kind, not even ibuprofen. My only supplement is zinc.

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:58 PM)quaker13 Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:45 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 09:06 PM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 02:28 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

It took you 10 years to add 40 pounds of muscle?
It took me 2 years to add 20 pounds of muscle.

I'm 52 brah. My son 15 started lifting 3 months ago, I'm his trainer, he's put on 13lbs and has cuts now - but his T levels are like 1500, mine are like 650-700 outstanding for an old fuck but still nowhere near the mini-cycle younger guys are on in puberty into their 20's.

Mind you, when I began lifting I was 200lbs @36% bf - standard dad bod, I had Stage IV hypertension, was metabolically deranged among other things. Different people build their bodies differently. @savonarola - how old were you when you put on that weight and are you or were you natty?

I'm 43 now, but I was 39-41 y.o. when I went from 195ish to 220, all of it muscle, lifting 3-4 days a week, and eating hella protein. Body fat dropped from 15-16% to approximately 12-13%. At that point I pulled back because, well, mission accomplished. I do mostly athletic stuff now, including HIIT body weight exercises, rowing machine, sprinting, soccer, swimming, etc. But each week I still hit 1 session upper and 1 session lower.

Funny thing is, during those two years, I never focused on peacock muscles like bicep and pecs. I was laser focused on lats, traps, glutes, etc -- you know, real strength. So now I've decided to get peacocky and do pretty much only bi, tri, and pec workouts before summer rolls around.

Re: natty, yes, absolutely. I don't use any drugs of any kind, not even ibuprofen. My only supplement is zinc.

A lot of the big boys dial it back once mission has been accomplished. I am consistently one of the best looking guys in the gym but i can't lift my way out of a paper bag now. Compare that to when i was 255lbs 20%bf and you would have thought i was on cycle i was so strong. I took up boxing around the same time i dropped my bodyfat to 12-13%. I think the fast twitch muscles required for the sport overwhelmed my slowtwitch fibers and thus i can't activate them the same way i could 5 years ago. It could be my central nervous system is exhausted from 20 years of consistent training but i doubt it.

Just out of curiosity how strong/weak are you?

I'm quite well built and yet I don't lift big weights. There's a skinny dude in my gym that lifts more than me.

I'm doing 60lb dumbbell shoulder presses, 40lb bicep curls, 70lb dumbell chest flys.

I've got another friend like me who lifts quite light weight and is still 185lbs at around 12% body fat (5'9).

How are your chest flys more than your dumbell shoulder press? Doesn't make sense. You must be doing the flys wrong and be damn near benching them.

Quote: (03-06-2019 11:35 PM)flyinghorse Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:58 PM)quaker13 Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:45 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 09:06 PM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 02:28 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

It took you 10 years to add 40 pounds of muscle?
It took me 2 years to add 20 pounds of muscle.

I'm 52 brah. My son 15 started lifting 3 months ago, I'm his trainer, he's put on 13lbs and has cuts now - but his T levels are like 1500, mine are like 650-700 outstanding for an old fuck but still nowhere near the mini-cycle younger guys are on in puberty into their 20's.

Mind you, when I began lifting I was 200lbs @36% bf - standard dad bod, I had Stage IV hypertension, was metabolically deranged among other things. Different people build their bodies differently. @savonarola - how old were you when you put on that weight and are you or were you natty?

I'm 43 now, but I was 39-41 y.o. when I went from 195ish to 220, all of it muscle, lifting 3-4 days a week, and eating hella protein. Body fat dropped from 15-16% to approximately 12-13%. At that point I pulled back because, well, mission accomplished. I do mostly athletic stuff now, including HIIT body weight exercises, rowing machine, sprinting, soccer, swimming, etc. But each week I still hit 1 session upper and 1 session lower.

Funny thing is, during those two years, I never focused on peacock muscles like bicep and pecs. I was laser focused on lats, traps, glutes, etc -- you know, real strength. So now I've decided to get peacocky and do pretty much only bi, tri, and pec workouts before summer rolls around.

Re: natty, yes, absolutely. I don't use any drugs of any kind, not even ibuprofen. My only supplement is zinc.

A lot of the big boys dial it back once mission has been accomplished. I am consistently one of the best looking guys in the gym but i can't lift my way out of a paper bag now. Compare that to when i was 255lbs 20%bf and you would have thought i was on cycle i was so strong. I took up boxing around the same time i dropped my bodyfat to 12-13%. I think the fast twitch muscles required for the sport overwhelmed my slowtwitch fibers and thus i can't activate them the same way i could 5 years ago. It could be my central nervous system is exhausted from 20 years of consistent training but i doubt it.

Just out of curiosity how strong/weak are you?

I'm quite well built and yet I don't lift big weights. There's a skinny dude in my gym that lifts more than me.

I'm doing 60lb dumbbell shoulder presses, 40lb bicep curls, 70lb dumbell chest flys.

I've got another friend like me who lifts quite light weight and is still 185lbs at around 12% body fat (5'9).

I tell you all my relevant lifts:

flat bench: warm up with 135 (15-20reps) 155 (10-15 reps) 4 sets
TBar Rows: 70lbs (20 reps) 90-100 (10-15 reps)
Standing dumbell shoulder presses (45lbs 10-15 reps)
Seated wide grip pulldown 120lbs (20 reps) 140lbs (6-8 reps)
Dumbbell shrugs: 75lbs (15-20reps)
Only hamstring curls and quad extensions NO Squats. Too bad on my knees
No tri or bi work.

Quote: (03-07-2019 12:04 AM)Repo Wrote:  

How are your chest flys more than your dumbell shoulder press? Doesn't make sense. You must be doing the flys wrong and be damn near benching them.

AC join separation meant I couldn't press for a long time. Kept decent size somehow though.

Quote: (03-07-2019 12:10 AM)quaker13 Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 11:35 PM)flyinghorse Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:58 PM)quaker13 Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 10:45 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 09:06 PM)ThrustMaster Wrote:  

I'm 52 brah. My son 15 started lifting 3 months ago, I'm his trainer, he's put on 13lbs and has cuts now - but his T levels are like 1500, mine are like 650-700 outstanding for an old fuck but still nowhere near the mini-cycle younger guys are on in puberty into their 20's.

Mind you, when I began lifting I was 200lbs @36% bf - standard dad bod, I had Stage IV hypertension, was metabolically deranged among other things. Different people build their bodies differently. @savonarola - how old were you when you put on that weight and are you or were you natty?

I'm 43 now, but I was 39-41 y.o. when I went from 195ish to 220, all of it muscle, lifting 3-4 days a week, and eating hella protein. Body fat dropped from 15-16% to approximately 12-13%. At that point I pulled back because, well, mission accomplished. I do mostly athletic stuff now, including HIIT body weight exercises, rowing machine, sprinting, soccer, swimming, etc. But each week I still hit 1 session upper and 1 session lower.

Funny thing is, during those two years, I never focused on peacock muscles like bicep and pecs. I was laser focused on lats, traps, glutes, etc -- you know, real strength. So now I've decided to get peacocky and do pretty much only bi, tri, and pec workouts before summer rolls around.

Re: natty, yes, absolutely. I don't use any drugs of any kind, not even ibuprofen. My only supplement is zinc.

A lot of the big boys dial it back once mission has been accomplished. I am consistently one of the best looking guys in the gym but i can't lift my way out of a paper bag now. Compare that to when i was 255lbs 20%bf and you would have thought i was on cycle i was so strong. I took up boxing around the same time i dropped my bodyfat to 12-13%. I think the fast twitch muscles required for the sport overwhelmed my slowtwitch fibers and thus i can't activate them the same way i could 5 years ago. It could be my central nervous system is exhausted from 20 years of consistent training but i doubt it.

Just out of curiosity how strong/weak are you?

I'm quite well built and yet I don't lift big weights. There's a skinny dude in my gym that lifts more than me.

I'm doing 60lb dumbbell shoulder presses, 40lb bicep curls, 70lb dumbell chest flys.

I've got another friend like me who lifts quite light weight and is still 185lbs at around 12% body fat (5'9).

I tell you all my relevant lifts:

flat bench: warm up with 135 (15-20reps) 155 (10-15 reps) 4 sets
TBar Rows: 70lbs (20 reps) 90-100 (10-15 reps)
Standing dumbell shoulder presses (45lbs 10-15 reps)
Seated wide grip pulldown 120lbs (20 reps) 140lbs (6-8 reps)
Dumbbell shrugs: 75lbs (15-20reps)
Only hamstring curls and quad extensions NO Squats. Too bad on my knees
No tri or bi work.

And you still have good size?

I thought I was well built considering my average lifts, but yours are lower so i'm definitely curious.

I'm not one to read heavily about the science of lifting, but it is intriguing that strength doesn't always correlate with size.

I'm heavy right now but I'm still 233 or so 13%bf. I basically went from 255 20%bf, to 220 15%bf, to 220 12-13%bf to 235 13% bf. A legit 13% and at 6'3 I'm tall and a wide. In all fairness, I got that last 10lbs from injecting peptides I'l readily admit and I feel no shame about it since it doesn't affect my nuts, only my pituitary gland.

I've gone from 170lbs @ 6'1 doing drugs and partying at the age of 19-22 and was fucking a lot of females and then I started bodybuilding/powerlifting while on HRT and got up too 240 @ 16% BF and I have had more than one girl take me home or I have taken them home because they wanted to fuck me because I was built like a gorilla but I also had a lot of success as I lived at a condo right off the beach. I have found from all the different weights I've been at women in general don't care as long as your not fat but in this day with Tindr and the instant gratification for women with online apps you HAVE to at least put some effort in your appearance for online dating but in person, you can get away with not being fat and being able to pick up women.

Working out drastically improves your confidence but to lose weight, abs are made in the kitchen. That saying is true.

Also for what quaker13 said about peptides, they really work. I've taken them recently while working out and went from around 195 with maybe 18-19% bf down to 185 with 14% bf.

Quote: (03-07-2019 12:10 AM)quaker13 Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 11:35 PM)flyinghorse Wrote:  

Just out of curiosity how strong/weak are you?

I'm quite well built and yet I don't lift big weights. There's a skinny dude in my gym that lifts more than me.

I'm doing 60lb dumbbell shoulder presses, 40lb bicep curls, 70lb dumbell chest flys.

I've got another friend like me who lifts quite light weight and is still 185lbs at around 12% body fat (5'9).

I tell you all my relevant lifts:

flat bench: warm up with 135 (15-20reps) 155 (10-15 reps) 4 sets
TBar Rows: 70lbs (20 reps) 90-100 (10-15 reps)
Standing dumbell shoulder presses (45lbs 10-15 reps)
Seated wide grip pulldown 120lbs (20 reps) 140lbs (6-8 reps)
Dumbbell shrugs: 75lbs (15-20reps)
Only hamstring curls and quad extensions NO Squats. Too bad on my knees
No tri or bi work.

Why are you guys only using dumbbells? What about bent over rows, squats, deadlifts, barbell overhead press, weighted dips, weighted pullups, bench press, lunges ?

Quote: (03-07-2019 01:34 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  

Quote: (03-07-2019 12:10 AM)quaker13 Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 11:35 PM)flyinghorse Wrote:  

Just out of curiosity how strong/weak are you?

I'm quite well built and yet I don't lift big weights. There's a skinny dude in my gym that lifts more than me.

I'm doing 60lb dumbbell shoulder presses, 40lb bicep curls, 70lb dumbell chest flys.

I've got another friend like me who lifts quite light weight and is still 185lbs at around 12% body fat (5'9).

I tell you all my relevant lifts:

flat bench: warm up with 135 (15-20reps) 155 (10-15 reps) 4 sets
TBar Rows: 70lbs (20 reps) 90-100 (10-15 reps)
Standing dumbell shoulder presses (45lbs 10-15 reps)
Seated wide grip pulldown 120lbs (20 reps) 140lbs (6-8 reps)
Dumbbell shrugs: 75lbs (15-20reps)
Only hamstring curls and quad extensions NO Squats. Too bad on my knees
No tri or bi work.

Why are you guys only using dumbbells? What about bent over rows, squats, deadlifts, barbell overhead press, weighted dips, weighted pullups, bench press, lunges ?

I did all that shit on my way up to this weight, but incorporating all those exercises now will take away from my boxing as I will be too sore to train. I mostly use dumbells for better range of motion.

Low bodyfat (visible abs) + some muscle

Girls don't give a fuck about how much you squat, bench, etc.

More muscle takes more effort/maybe PEDs - not worth it because you can be too big/freaky after a certain point for most girls

Quote: (03-07-2019 01:34 PM)Batman_ Wrote:  

Quote: (03-07-2019 12:10 AM)quaker13 Wrote:  

Quote: (03-06-2019 11:35 PM)flyinghorse Wrote:  

Just out of curiosity how strong/weak are you?

I'm quite well built and yet I don't lift big weights. There's a skinny dude in my gym that lifts more than me.

I'm doing 60lb dumbbell shoulder presses, 40lb bicep curls, 70lb dumbell chest flys.

I've got another friend like me who lifts quite light weight and is still 185lbs at around 12% body fat (5'9).

I tell you all my relevant lifts:

flat bench: warm up with 135 (15-20reps) 155 (10-15 reps) 4 sets
TBar Rows: 70lbs (20 reps) 90-100 (10-15 reps)
Standing dumbell shoulder presses (45lbs 10-15 reps)
Seated wide grip pulldown 120lbs (20 reps) 140lbs (6-8 reps)
Dumbbell shrugs: 75lbs (15-20reps)
Only hamstring curls and quad extensions NO Squats. Too bad on my knees
No tri or bi work.

Why are you guys only using dumbbells? What about bent over rows, squats, deadlifts, barbell overhead press, weighted dips, weighted pullups, bench press, lunges ?

Mostly injuries from a motorbike accident keep me away from heavy weights on a bar.

I prefer dumbbells as I have more control.

As long as the muscle is stimulated it really doesn't matter that much.

Everyone builds muscle in different ways, I don't see the point of criticizing someone else on their routine,

I used gym rings and got a great workout. The longer you train is the more you have to change the workout, having a workout partner is also great for gains.

What you lift isn't important, as long as you have the right technique you will build muscle.

^^^^^

Exactly. Always important to keep in mind a lot of people have different goals when they lift as well.

A body builder is going to lift different from a powerlifter and a powerlifter is going to lift different from an athlete, etc.

The biggest keys in progress is consistent training, good diet and increasing difficulty.

Side note. What supplement do you guys take, recommend? Do you guys take body measurement? And try and maximize the size of each major muscle? Chest, arms, thighs etc...

Quote: (03-07-2019 07:38 PM)ballsyamog Wrote:  

Side note. What supplement do you guys take, recommend? Do you guys take body measurement? And try and maximize the size of each major muscle? Chest, arms, thighs etc...

Depending on your goals nutrition is critical. I don't even mean as far cutting, I'm mean gaining. The best results I made short of my initial muscle I put on from 18-22 was hiring a bodybuilding nutritionist. This is not to be confused with a general nutritionist. I followed his diet to a Tee and i put 10lbs of lean muscle in 3 months. I had been under eating for years and when i over ate my macros were way out of sync for putting on quality muscle. Again, I'm a big proponent of peptides if you have the cash. It's basically the equivalent of being a stripper(peptides) and not a full blown prostitute(steroids). I don't and never will judge folks that take roids. I'd take them myself if I wanted to get bigger. They are low risk and high reward if you've done your research or you take them under a physician's care. The purist are the purist and I salute them, but the guys doing gear take a small risk and are rewarded handsomely for it. Simeon Panda and Ulysses come to mind. Those brothers have great bodybuilding genes but God only knows how many compounds they are on.

^ lol I had the same conversation with my workout buddy last week regarding Panda and Ulysees. He was convinced they are natural, I laughed and didn't want to get into it.

Those cats are taking all kinds of our compounds that must be hard on their organs.

I would like to hear more about your diet or the one the nutritionist recommended.

Yeah agreed. There’s no way panda and Ulysses are natural. They put out a video claiming that they were hahaha
https://youtu.be/_bvQ8tE2nUI

I’d also like to hear about the diet . I’m 185 about 15% bf. Would like to get to 195-200 without putting on too much bf

Look natural to me