Here's an interesting documentary that gives the impression that dating and marriage in more traditionally-minded China is not easy:






Problems:

-Women are focusing on education/career, which reduces their ability or motivation to find a man until they're older and no longer desired.

-Men do not want to take on the financial burden of marriage, which in a culture that aims not to "lose face" can be extremely expensive. As a man you're basically seen as a wallet by the girl's family.

-Both sexes get extreme pressure from their parents to get married, to the point that many young people hire fake boyfriends to bring home for Chinese New Year. One man was told by his parents that he shouldn't come home unless he has a girl. This is unheard of in the West.

-Both sexes have extremely high standards when it comes to finding a mate.

-There is a feminist push in China to remove the stigma of being a "leftover" woman and to get pride from career accomplishments.

One interesting aspect is that Chinese parents will actively hunt and screen for partners. I wouldn't mind my parents doing the hard work and lining up prospects for me.

I'm sure the situation is different for a Western man who goes to China to find a woman, but for the Chinese, it doesn't seem like they're any better off than Western countries with broken dating cultures.

CR7 knows why:

I see that China has caught the feminist virus.

Ah well, looks like more Chinese men will expat themselves to China's new colonies in Africa and get with African chicks.

Quote: (01-02-2019 07:03 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

I'm sure the situation is different for a Western man who goes to China to find a woman, but for the Chinese, it doesn't seem like they're any better off than Western countries with broken dating cultures.

Until 3/4 of their population becomes overweight, I have to disagree with the bolded.

Quote: (01-02-2019 07:39 PM)Labienus Wrote:  

I see that China has caught the feminist virus.

Ah well, looks like more Chinese men will expat themselves to China's new colonies in Africa and get with African chicks.

Ummm....somehow i suspect not...

Doesn't sound like a traditionally minded country at all.

Seems like a hyper-materialistic version of the West. From the video, it looks like the girls demand more in regards to finances there, while at the same time there's less funds to go around as a whole and more men to split those more scarce funds with, relative to the women available for each man.

Sounds like a horror show for anything other than elite men. It's worse than the West, in the West, at least if you don't go the career/money route as a guy, you can still find hipster girls to keep you company if you have other things going for you like looks/social skills, etc.

Quote: (01-02-2019 08:29 PM)The Father Wrote:  

Quote: (01-02-2019 07:39 PM)Labienus Wrote:  

I see that China has caught the feminist virus.

Ah well, looks like more Chinese men will expat themselves to China's new colonies in Africa and get with African chicks.

Ummm....somehow i suspect not...

I wouldn't rule it out. Chinese culture will never accept blasian kids as Chinese, but the descendents could easily establish themselves as a ruling class in Africa backed by Chinese money. The country has something like a 1.1-1 gender imbalance under the age of 35 or so, ending one child will alleviate that somewhat but that was only done a few years ago. Tens of millions of dudes who can't get laid will have a pretty significant social cost for the Chinese government, and the only options to deal with it are either a) start a war that will get a bunch of them killed off or b) "encourage" them to find wives abroad. For the latter, Africa is a logical outlet which already has significant Chinese economic colonization in place and would seem to have fewer obstacles to rape and pillage than the other logical options, SEA or Siberia.

Would love to hear a report from people actually over there, as opposed to a documentary.

This could be the basis of an entirely secular and amoral argument for the criminalization of abortion and/or revealing the sex of unborn children to parents.

Eh, it's a bit more complicated than that.

At the end of the day, if a Chinese dude is masculine and has his shit together he has absolutely 0 to worry about. Feminism can't really take root in a country where you cannot even vote. What are they gonna do? Lead a revolution?

Many local dudes are just awful husbands in the first place. They get their son and the woman is just a hostage in her own home. Now, I know that this idea is enticing to many dudes on the forum, but I can't really blame a Chinese chick for not wanting that to be her fate. Pop out 1-2 boys and then just wait to die for 50 years while their semi-autistic husband ignores them to play carbon copy video games.

Chinese parents:

Let's talk about this one. You guys often approach this like the parent is trying to find the best match for you. That is often false when it comes to Chinese parents. They are trying to find the best match for them.

It's a very effective system of control from the ground up where kids are constantly bombarded with guilt-trips. It's always all about the "family needs this" and "the family needs that."

When it comes to marriage it's about what the family needs, not about what will make you happy as an individual.

What I mean by that is the girl they choose for you will come from a family that is predictable and reliable so that when the families exchange money the parents take a big cut of that cash and use it to buy a house out in the middle of nowhere and live off that money forever. Your family essentially pimps you out so that THEY have money to go live on. The family needs it, right?

Honestly, I suspect this is one of the reasons why so many marriages end in divorce. Getting guilted into arrangements you don't like is probably a great way to drive you away from the other person.

I can't tell you how many young guys my age I've met in arranged marriages who have confided in me that they actually did not want to do it but had no choice. Had they refused they would have had their university funding cut by mommy and daddy. I get that this is how a lot of the world functions, but I can't blame people for going "fuck this."

The other issue:

Many young Chinese dudes are asexual as fuck. I'm friendly with a few dudes who are more normal and less rich and honestly, you sometimes don't even know if they're virgins or not. I'm too afraid to ask because then the next question is "fortis, are you fucking chinese girls" and we all know how salty some locals get when you get something they can't get.

Like, this forum sometimes has this idea that China is full of red-blooded alphas foaming at the mouth to take over the world, but that really just isn't the case. I'm going to be frank and say that most Chinese millennials are more interested in getting Diamond Rank in league of legends than they are in consistently smashing 7s.

You meet guys out here who are richer than god who just play video games all day. They're just skinny fat versions of the archetypical basement dweller we love to ridicule.

They might have a little "importing business" where they fly out to Canada, load up a suitcase with LV bags and flip them but they just spend that money on LOL, Evisu clothes and cigarettes. There's no drive there.

Why would there be? Daddy made all the money and they have nothing to aspire to. They're already rich and can just coast for the next 50 years until they're 70.

This has very little to do with feminism and more to do with general apathy amongst the male portion of the populace. Sure, you meet a lot of guys who totally shatter this mold.

I used to work for a young Chinese dude who REALLY had his shit together. I would regularly see young women coming out of his office after lunch time. Wonder what that was about but a frightening number of guys around my age are just incels who are slaves to Tencent, Xiami, Huawei or whatever other huge brands they waste their lives working for.

In many ways, China is sort of what the USA seems to be leaning towards. A closed circuit system where the people don't need to think or do anything for themselves. It has some perks: low crime, homogeneity in thought and fast infrastructure projects, but I do wonder what it does to the soul of an individual over successive generations.

Quote: (01-02-2019 11:39 PM)Waqqle Wrote:  

This could be the basis of an entirely secular and amoral argument for the criminalization of abortion and/or revealing the sex of unborn children to parents.

I have a friend from the countryside in China who was denied the privilege of knowing the gender of his kid because people where he's from tend to abort girls. Ha.

He's on his second kid now. Good dude.

Quote: (01-03-2019 12:49 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

I have a friend from the countryside in China who was denied the privilege of knowing the gender of his kid because people where he's from tend to abort girls. Ha.

He's on his second kid now. Good dude.

So his first child was a girl then?

India's current gender imbalance was also caused by widespread use of sex-selective abortions, especially in the more rural parts of the country. Now there are whole villages in India with virtually no women.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/indias...ed-history

Nah, it was a boy, but then you have something going on there, too.

Some families want to have girls because the gender imbalance means that they can "trade" their girl up for a larger cash gift if they marry her up into a bigger, richer family.

In regards to leftover women in China:

many of these girls were commanded by their families to go abroad and work their asses off so that they could pay for their family to move up in China. Why should they be stigmatized for following orders? Talking young people into doing things against their interests and then scapegoating them down the line. Where else have I seen that before?

Honestly, if the culture didn't have a tendency to endlessly shame girls for not being married a lot of these girls would probably have been married already and would be having kids to help take care of China's massive geriatric problem. I've met some girls in the 27-30 age range who would make good wives, but because they're stigmatized for not being married already they're pretty much out of the game unless they want to marry a really poor dude or a foreigner.

It's hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways. Want your women to stay feminine? Then don't waste their damn prime reproductive years doing shit that has nothing to do with being a better mother.

China is always speaking out of both sides of their mouth like this though. They make all this fuss about wanting to protect traditional culture and all this other shit, and then they put people in situations where they're forced to do things that are not traditional at all in order to survive. It's just lip service to ideals.

A lack of ambition among young men seems to be a theme in Asia.

Was meeting with a business partner who works in a creative field, who told me that 100% of applicants for his last job opening were women.
Men, he said, just don't seem interested in jobs that are difficult.

I can't speak on that too much, but one thing I do know is that many guys here are not willing to get down and dirty for their first few jobs.

Like, you meet fresh college grad dudes expecting 6-figure salaries who quit the second the job gets hard. I know of one guy who has been unemployed (mooching off his wealthy provincial parents) for 6 months looking for his "dream" job. Of course, he just sits in his apartment eating takeout and playing LOL. I asked him how he expects that this course of action will help him find a job but he just sorta blew it off.

Mind you, this guy is wealthy enough to afford years of rent in a tier-1 chinese city and not work, so he could probably find a wife, but what do you expect this sort of guy to do when the going gets tough? Play LOL and quit life?

Of course the woman (20:55) encouraging women in China to postpone marriage until they are 30 and "build a career and wait for the right guy to come along" is an ABC (American-Born Chinese) feminist from LA.

http://en.joychenyu.com

Quote: (01-03-2019 01:10 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

In regards to leftover women in China:

many of these girls were commanded by their families to go abroad and work their asses off so that they could pay for their family to move up in China. Why should they be stigmatized for following orders? Talking young people into doing things against their interests and then scapegoating them down the line. Where else have I seen that before?

Honestly, if the culture didn't have a tendency to endlessly shame girls for not being married a lot of these girls would probably have been married already and would be having kids to help take care of China's massive geriatric problem. I've met some girls in the 27-30 age range who would make good wives, but because they're stigmatized for not being married already they're pretty much out of the game unless they want to marry a really poor dude or a foreigner.

It's hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways. Want your women to stay feminine? Then don't waste their damn prime reproductive years doing shit that has nothing to do with being a better mother.

China is always speaking out of both sides of their mouth like this though. They make all this fuss about wanting to protect traditional culture and all this other shit, and then they put people in situations where they're forced to do things that are not traditional at all in order to survive. It's just lip service to ideals.

Fortis, good insight. I've noticed this paradox too, having been raised partly in that culture. So many middle class Chinese parents are zealously dedicated to two completely contradictory goals (they want their daughters to be both successful career women and good wives), and nobody in the whole damn country of 1.3bn has the insight to realize the contradiction, or at least the standing to call it out.

In any case, this kind of reflection and introspection seems to be completely lacking from the Chinese cultural DNA. There is no such thing as "taking the red pill" (as we understand it in the West) in Chinese society.

My theory is that introspection is generally discouraged since it leads to having different opinions and it's literally a crime to have different opinions on certain topics, so the introspective people pretend they're not thinking, avoid thinking or have the introspection beaten out of them by elders who remember the days where people got gulag'd for thinking too much.

Some people are really cheeky about it in a morbid way, though. I teach elementary school and I had a student once ask me if I'd been to Tiananmen square and then suddenly laugh in a way that clearly indicated he knew what I was thinking when he made that reference. This kid has frequently asked me about VPNs and other things that throw me off. There's hope with this one, right?

If you want to get Real Talk about China, then talk to a Chinese Christian. They may not say things they want to see in public but if you chill with them in a place they're comfortable they often are pretty forthcoming about their feelings about the government. I try not to ask too much since you never know if someone might be listening and gets your friend gulag'd.

The thing that this thread reminds me though is that information about China is so thin on the ground outside of China. I really wish the CCP was more forthcoming about stats. We have a general rule about China and Chinese statistics:

Anything published by the CCP is bullshit/propaganda made to look the CCP look better. They'll very rarely release data themselves that does not paint them in a good light.

I don't say this to be pessimistic, but it's just something to remember as you move forward in understanding one of the world's rising economies.

Anyway, I don't mean to be pedantic or condescending, I just find China to be an endlessly fascinating topic.

Quote: (01-03-2019 09:22 AM)BlueMark Wrote:  

Quote: (01-03-2019 01:10 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

In regards to leftover women in China:

many of these girls were commanded by their families to go abroad and work their asses off so that they could pay for their family to move up in China. Why should they be stigmatized for following orders? Talking young people into doing things against their interests and then scapegoating them down the line. Where else have I seen that before?

Honestly, if the culture didn't have a tendency to endlessly shame girls for not being married a lot of these girls would probably have been married already and would be having kids to help take care of China's massive geriatric problem. I've met some girls in the 27-30 age range who would make good wives, but because they're stigmatized for not being married already they're pretty much out of the game unless they want to marry a really poor dude or a foreigner.

It's hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways. Want your women to stay feminine? Then don't waste their damn prime reproductive years doing shit that has nothing to do with being a better mother.

China is always speaking out of both sides of their mouth like this though. They make all this fuss about wanting to protect traditional culture and all this other shit, and then they put people in situations where they're forced to do things that are not traditional at all in order to survive. It's just lip service to ideals.

Fortis, good insight. I've noticed this paradox too, having been raised partly in that culture. So many middle class Chinese parents are zealously dedicated to two completely contradictory goals (they want their daughters to be both successful career women and good wives), and nobody in the whole damn country of 1.3bn has the insight to realize the contradiction, or at least the standing to call it out.

Great insight about the contradictory motivations. Do you think China or the West will be the first to shift away from pushing career development and earning money on women?

Hard to say. Can you really put the cat back in the bag at this point?

China could do it given how their government works, but China's largest leg up in the world economy is an endless army of drones (not robo drones) who can work around the clock to finish things at rates that other nations can't match. If you took all the women out of the workforce, suddenly China can't boast the same work rate. The factories would be gutted and wouldn't be able to maintain that sort of output. That might leave the door open for another country with tons of people willing to work for pennies to step up and become another manufacturing superpower.


I know YOu didn't ask that exactly, but I can't really envision a scenario where China or America does this without cataclysmic consequences.

This is not fair, Roosh/Mods. You banned me because of this post:

Quote: (01-02-2019 07:26 PM)Day Game Bang Wrote:  

CR7 knows why:

I did not even get a warning for any of my posts. And antisemitism is widespread on this forum (Kona, The Beast1, ((())), etc).

Please do not ban me. I will tone it down and post less. I'm currently in a very liberal/lefty city that is infested with SJW's; and this forum (red pill) gives me some sanity.

Quote: (01-02-2019 07:03 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

One interesting aspect is that Chinese parents will actively hunt and screen for partners. I wouldn't mind my parents doing the hard work and lining up prospects for me.

Why not? Get an 18-20 year old from the Old Country, virgin if you want. Make babies.

It would be the new chapter.

I don't mean to paint a picture of doom and gloom, though.

I think that if you got your shit together China's a great place fo Chinese men and foreigners alike. I'd even say that China's a really good spot for wife hunting if you can spend enough time on the ground to get a full picture of the girls and what you like.

Girls don't just look at your height, body and face and next you like they do back home. If you're 5'4 but you work for Microsoft, drive a nice car, come from a good family and all that other shit, you have a chance with 8+ girls who would not even look at you back home.

Your stats beyond game matter a lot more in China than they do back home. I regularly see dudes destroying the busted the dudes test with hot bishes. I'm talking chubby Indian businessmen, Old, Rupert Murdoch-looking dudes, and other groups.

I can't recommend China based on that alone, but I've found that my results here have been commensurate with the work I put in. I find that motivating since I don't spin my wheels for long whenever I decide to upgrade myself in some way.

The other side of this is that many local dudes do not want to improve themselves beyond just making more money. That works but if you're spending 20 years just stacking dough while other dudes are stacking dough, getting in shape, learning game and learning languages, you will lose the game in the long run. The other dudes may have a little less cash, but they're hitting all those emotional buttons that lizards need stimulated.

The flipside of that is when you meet cool local dudes like D_HZY who bring many things to the table and you know they probably wouldn't struggle to find a wife in China if that was their thing. Honestly, one of the untapped niches in SZ that's burgeoning is being local and jacked. I haven't met a chinese guy rocking a strong physique who had a hard time with the girls here since it's so rare to see a dude who takes care of his body.