Yeah, $40 an hour suggests your poker career is not exactly a busted flush. But it would be good to get at least one other source of reliable income. That at least gives you some financial insurance; something you'd definitely want if you're out in Bangkok or Saigon.

Research the options, knuckle down and I've got full faith you'll succeed.

If you could earn 1000$/month, you yould live decent life in Eastern Europe. And you can always get normal job with no qualification needed.

Quote: (07-26-2017 01:48 PM)RustyShackleford Wrote:  

I see the writing on the wall and I want to start developing skills or something to give back to the world. I don't want to go busto at 35 and have no skills other than some tangible poker ones. That is a big fear of mine.

Your natural instincts are calling you. Have you thought of going to trade school? Perhaps check out one of your local unions and apply to begin an apprenticeship. You can always work and play poker on the side and you will develop an in demand skill that you can be proud of. Your self confidence will shoot through the roof.

Question is, do you actually want and have the motivation to do actual hard work. That's why construction and agriculture jobs are dominated by foreigners. Native men in our generation are largely snowflakes.

Quote: (07-26-2017 03:31 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  

Quote: (07-26-2017 01:48 PM)RustyShackleford Wrote:  

I see the writing on the wall and I want to start developing skills or something to give back to the world. I don't want to go busto at 35 and have no skills other than some tangible poker ones. That is a big fear of mine.

Your natural instincts are calling you. Have you thought of going to trade school? Perhaps check out one of your local unions and apply to begin an apprenticeship. You can always work and play poker on the side and you will develop an in demand skill that you can be proud of. Your self confidence will shoot through the roof.

Question is, do you actually want and have the motivation to do actual hard work. That's why construction and agriculture jobs are dominated by foreigners. Native men in our generation are largely snowflakes.

Have not considered at all going to trade school, or going back to school at all. I think this would be a terrible waste of money + time. Even a 2 year program I'd be broke at 30, which is what I want to avoid. I want to move abroad, which is why these independent skills like copywriting/programming attract me.

If I wanted to to stay in Vancouver I would take a sales job working for my friend. Even live poker would give me more money than doing a trade. Even if I was qualified right now for a trade, my income potential is greater doing poker at the casinos.

Quote: (07-26-2017 03:36 PM)RustyShackleford Wrote:  

Quote: (07-26-2017 03:31 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  

Quote: (07-26-2017 01:48 PM)RustyShackleford Wrote:  

I see the writing on the wall and I want to start developing skills or something to give back to the world. I don't want to go busto at 35 and have no skills other than some tangible poker ones. That is a big fear of mine.

Your natural instincts are calling you. Have you thought of going to trade school? Perhaps check out one of your local unions and apply to begin an apprenticeship. You can always work and play poker on the side and you will develop an in demand skill that you can be proud of. Your self confidence will shoot through the roof.

Question is, do you actually want and have the motivation to do actual hard work. That's why construction and agriculture jobs are dominated by foreigners. Native men in our generation are largely snowflakes.

Have not considered at all going to trade school, or going back to school at all. I think this would be a terrible waste of money + time. Even a 2 year program I'd be broke at 30, which is what I want to avoid. I want to move abroad, which is why these independent skills like copywriting/programming attract me.

If I wanted to to stay in Vancouver I would take a sales job working for my friend. Even live poker would give me more money than doing a trade. Even if I was qualified right now for a trade, my income potential is greater doing poker at the casinos.

Well then look at a union. Aside from your dues, they pay you. You learn and you earn. Grind it out for a couple of years. You say your income potential is greater in a casino, but what about your desire to build and give something back to society. To restore your confidence. Or is the desire to only build from behind the comfort of a computer screen. Tradesman make good money, and combine that with your poker winnings, you could take off for months out of the year and live the high life. There's plenty of tradies who work and then take off to live overseas. You're still young. But very well, if moving abroad is your dream, quickest and fastest way is get your TEFL cert and teach English. Perhaps build up your programming skills at the same time and ultimately thrive on that once you make it.

Good luck.

If I was 21 spectrum, I would more heavily consider what you're saying. I have considered teaching English abroad but think for long term I would be better served learning copywriting, programming or Amazon FBA.

I have no problem getting down and dirty, a part of me wishes I got into trades earlier. But for me to spend 20-30k more on schooling, plus 2 years of obtaining the skills seems like it would be inefficient compared to getting a sales job or grinding away at poker in comparison.

$25 is not a lot of money at all. Think of as you totaled Camry with no insurance.

Are you going to let Camry get in the way of your life?

Quote: (07-26-2017 06:15 PM)Sebastian Wrote:  

$25 is not a lot of money at all. Think of as you totaled Camry with no insurance.

Are you going to let Camry get in the way of your life?

He said 25k, silly billy.

Listen here Rusty Shackleford because I'm giving it to you straight:

Get your ass in that casino and play some cards. You are a gambler. Be who you are.

I don't want to here anymore of this whining. I want to hear winning.

Aloha!

Quote: (07-26-2017 03:07 PM)RustyShackleford Wrote:  

@captain Interesting, but I don't consider myself great at poker. I had a high level coach teach me for a few months and I still struggle with my same weaknesses (mental game mostly). I beat low/mid stakes for a few years to pay the bills, I don't consider that great at all. Anyone with a decent passion could do that within 3-6 months.

@potential Thanks for the kind words man, I really appreciate it. I will certainly amp down the poker I think going forward, and pick something I can learn online and make it work. You're right, I started learning omaha because I am not optimistic about the poker landscape going forward.

Ironically, even after the downswing looking at my poker tracker, I am still hovering around $40/hour playing omaha. I guess I should be more confident, I always let the recency bias impact me.

I'll consider the pros/cons of writing copy and programming and the rest. Much love bro.

40/hr over how many hands? Variance at PLO is massive so it's possible to win over big stretches even as a break even or losing player. A big winning pro has regular 30-40 buyin downswings, so the downward variance for a learner or modest winner could be bankroll crushing. I wouldn't recommend playing PLO if you're on a short roll or looking to eek out a living to live abroad.

I've been an online pro for a decade and the outlook for online poker is grim. The sites are jacking up the rake and eliminating the forms of poker that are the most profitable (heads up) and developing ways to make existing forms less profitable (zoom, anonymous tables, lower rake back). The remaining pros are studying the game more than ever. I'd recommend finding something with a brighter future, especially since the online competition is so stiff (even at low to mid stakes) and only getting stiffer.

I don't want to beat you when you're down, but you're both claiming to make 40/hr and also saying you lose 25000 on a down run. If you're doing 500 buy ins, then it would seem you went on a 50 net loss buy ins, which is absolutely atrocious. Or you're saying you've lost 25000 in money made from 500 buy in (such as getting to 2500 from 500 5 times, and then losing it). If it's the former, you need to absolutely stop. If it's the latter, than you really only lost 2500 in buy ins, which isn't the end of the world, but it does indicate you don't know when to stop, walk away and clear your head.

Either way, at this age, I'd start looking at a normal job and real self-investment. You're either making 80,000 a year working full time poker (2000 an hour), or you're working part time and then not using the other 80 hours a week you're awake productively. Or you're not being totally honest on how much you make an hour.

I'm not trying to endlessly criticize, but I'd suggest trying a new career path that involves building more marketable skills. What does Canada offer in terms of college tuition assistance? Even if you keep playing, you'll still have time for classes

@sonoma reasonable questions. I have been putting in about 120 hours of live play in months that I am here, but it's allowed me to travel a lot. I spent 2 months in Asia last year, as well as spending 35-40 days in Vegas every year. I also spent a month in London/Spain last year as well.

On average I put between 100-120 hours of live play, plus maybe 20-30 hours a month studying. I never once tried to suggest I work full time or do anything beyond working out and chasing girls + partying. I am at the point where I don't really want to continue with live poker and want to go abroad. I agree with jcardial, online Hold 'em is mostly dead or I am not willing to put the effort into it (too much catch up).

Live PLO is not like live Hold 'em. The non pros may not understand but yes I have bought in for $4-500 and lost 4-5 buy ins in 4 hours. The game plays really deep and you get your money in multiway in PLO. Meaning I am 32% to win 4x my money, the variance is disgusting.

If I were to go on a $25,000 downswing playing Hold 'em it would be a world of difference. My good friend who regularly pulls 6 figures out of this game recently went on a 40k downswing, and he is a MUCH better player than me.

I want to start building my own skills away from poker. I do not want to be a professional hedonistic gambler into my 30s, but I don't think school is very profitable way to go.

Thanks for taking the questions in a positive light, I knew it was a bit abrasive, but I didn't know how to reword it. Do you cash out after a certain amount and then buy right back in to limit the downside? (I'm not necessarily suggesting you do so, just curious).

It depends on how Canada does schooling, in the US it can be near-free, or even outright profitable (where grants and scholarships exceed tuition and costs of living) depending on your income/state.

I've played the education funding game fairly well for where I live, so that's all I can speak to. I know there's a lot of info around here with business opportunities for foreign living, but I'm unhelpful in that field

I have had 2 soul crushing experiences where I lost about 1000-1500 early in the session, chip all the way back up to about 2k or 2400 and lose it all. That's happened twice during the downswing and I am now finished with it.

I cash out when I am in too deep (anything more than 1,500 now) and the game is high variance. One or two players can warp a table so tremendously in PLO. I am at the point now where I haven't even played omaha to be honest, because I am worth less than 6 months living expenses right now. I am only playing Hold 'em.

I am almost 28, and still have student loan debt. I do not really want to spend 2-4 years going back to school, even if it were free. I think it's a poor use of resources to be honest. Compare what I could do even part time with Amazon or learning copy or programming, I think school would be a poor choice.

If I want to stay in Vancouver, I will take a full time job with a company who will groom me for the long term and make good money with them. However that would commit me to staying in Vancouver, which I am not sure I want.

Quote: (07-26-2017 01:44 PM)RustyShackleford Wrote:  

Quote: (07-26-2017 02:05 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

Sorry to hear about your situation.

The only useful thing I can think of, is to find someone who is making money doing what you want to do, and then ask to be an unpaid apprentice/intern/assistant to that person in return for learning everything there is in their way to make money.

If you can't have confidence in your own skillz, rather find someone else you have confidence in, gets money that you think is reasonable, and let them teach you their skillz.

This is a good idea, and if I wanted to stay in Vancouver I have an acquaintance who has a company in merchant sales. I think I could get a job from him if I really wanted. But I had really hope to be moving to SEA at some point by the end of the year.

Then might I suggest getting an English teacher qualification (which is a 2 week course last time I checked) and finding some place in SEA to teach English? (Your command of English is clearly great and a North American accent seems to be in high demand in Asia). Once you are settled in, then build up a side-hustle business. Once that is launched, you can quit teaching and focus on business things.

Suits is doing that in China, he can probably advise you on the mindset, skills and strategy required.

@Thomas you are absolutely right I forgot about the teaching English thing. I am considering starting the side hustle here while I play poker part time to pay the bills. I seem to have a few options getting clearer in the mud from all your guys wonderful help.

1) Get full time sales job + play part time in casino -> stay in vancouver
2) teach english + head to asia + start side hustle once I'm settled
3) Play poker part time + start side hustle now (copy writing, amazon FBA, programming) Get side hustle $$$ -> move abroad

I am leaning towards playing part time and running a side hustle instead of teaching english. I am not desperately unhappy in Vancouver, but if I wanted to get out right now I had forgotten about the teaching English angle. Thanks Thomas I am aware of Suits knowledge in this subject. I only have a 2 year degree, which would be a mild inconvenience but nothing terrible (I could buy a forged one I'm sure if my life depended on it)

I have a friend in Saigon who could put me up, and there are worse lives than tearing up Saigon with him...

Rusty I have played the occasional game of poker for fun here and there but I can't say I know a lot about poker so take what I say next with a grain of salt.

In one of your posts you said "I am not on the streets. Since going broke I am playing Hold 'em on the weekends to pay bills. It's better than a dead end job and I could easily support myself on 15-20 hours a week of Hold 'Em, but it's not good money."

Is there a reason you can't go to a cheap country in Asia or Eastern Europe and rent an apartment near a casino and grind Hold 'em against amateurs at a casino there? I would imagine if you hit up the same limit type of tables you could make similar money grinding away. If you make for example an average of $15 - $20 U.S. dollars an hour in Eastern Europe or Asia (in a physical casino) and work 20 - 30 hours a week, you are making a very comfortable living there.

Again this is coming from somebody with little knowledge of gambling/poker but it seems to me the main reason you fucked yourself up is because your starting bankroll was too small.

Having a $30,000 bankroll and betting up to $2000 per night can fuck you up quick if you have a nasty losing streak. Also when your cash is running low it stresses you out and you have less mental clarity thus affecting your play/game.

I bet if you worked hard in a full time job (while grinding a bit of low stakes casino Texas Hold'em on the side) for say 3 years (while being frugal) you could save up $100,000 bank roll. Then, continue to live a frugal lifestyle so your living costs are low and don't eat too much into your bankroll and go back to full-time poker. with a $100,000 bankroll even if you bet a maximum of $1500 per night every night, it would take a long time and one hell of a losing streak to go bankrupt. This also means you play with less stress and more confidence which would improve your game.

Even at a $100,000 you should still be aiming to grow your bankroll by reinvesting some of your winnings until it hits $250,000. The bigger your bankroll, the higher the margin of safety you have. If you limit yourself to say a maximum loss of $1500 per night like you are doing now, assuming you have some sort of reasonable skill at poker its pretty damn near impossible to lose a $250,000 bankroll grinding at low stakes sit and go texas hold em poker tables at the casino. Grinding away at casinos in Eastern Europe or Asia with this kind of bankroll, you could live like a king.

Its clear from what you said that previously you were way too cocky. Here you were with a $30,000 bankroll taking holidays to Asia and Las Vegas when you should have been thinking "shit my bankroll is way too low and a bad losing streak would bankrupt me, I have to build up my bankroll". You should have been living a Spartan lifestyle of no holidays and 2 minute noodles, etc when your bankroll was $30,000 to build up your bankroll to an acceptable level. You seemed to think you were invincible though.

I agree with Australia sucks. You have created a false dichotomy - live poker at home or online poker abroad. Other countries also have casinos and poker rooms.

I doubt it other countries will have big/soft enough games to make the move worthwhile, other than the international hubs like macau.

@australia I didn't realize at the time that 30k was too small a bankroll at omaha, even in the past few months players have gotten a lot better and there's money. If you think I lived a lifestyle where I balled out in Vegas/Asia you would be wrong. In my trip to Asia I went full backpacker mode, I travel to Vegas for the cash games to make money. Hell, even when I went to London + Spain I stayed with locals or couch surfed, because I couldn't afford the $40USD/night to stay in a London hostel.

To say I misunderstood the variance of omaha? Sure. Was I naive? Absolutely. But to suggest I thought I was invincible is a fallacy. Read through my post, my confidence is shaken deep. To suggest that I sat down with 8% of my bankroll at the table is an outright lie. These were $4-500 shots.

I have a roommate and pay peanuts for my place in Vancouver, well away from the DT core (I sublet a friends basement suite) and I have a beater car. I make 90% of my own meals. This is not a Las Vegas baller lifestyle.

The only place in Asia where I could gamble is Macau, and since I am not playing mid to high stakes (think 5/10 or higher) the expenses would be way too high to sustain myself. I don't know much about Eastern Europe to be honest, but to travel halfway around the world to grind 1/2 seems silly.

If I wanted to stay in poker, Omaha is the future. But online poker is trending downward or near dead, and I don't want to be a live casino pro. I posted this in an attempt to understand how I could move away from poker, and build some valuable online skills so that I may (eventually) move abroad without having to teach english.

FWIW, I don't think its relevant to discuss how I got here. I am broke, I want to get out of my current career, and I want to learn what else is out there. To look back at how I arrived is irrelevant to how I can move forward.

Quote: (07-27-2017 12:56 PM)RustyShackleford Wrote:  

@australia I didn't realize at the time that 30k was too small a bankroll at omaha, even in the past few months players have gotten a lot better and there's money. If you think I lived a lifestyle where I balled out in Vegas/Asia you would be wrong. In my trip to Asia I went full backpacker mode, I travel to Vegas for the cash games to make money. Hell, even when I went to London + Spain I stayed with locals or couch surfed, because I couldn't afford the $40USD/night to stay in a London hostel.

To say I misunderstood the variance of omaha? Sure. Was I naive? Absolutely. But to suggest I thought I was invincible is a fallacy. Read through my post, my confidence is shaken deep. To suggest that I sat down with 8% of my bankroll at the table is an outright lie. These were $4-500 shots.

I have a roommate and pay peanuts for my place in Vancouver, well away from the DT core (I sublet a friends basement suite) and I have a beater car. I make 90% of my own meals. This is not a Las Vegas baller lifestyle.

The only place in Asia where I could gamble is Macau, and since I am not playing mid to high stakes (think 5/10 or higher) the expenses would be way too high to sustain myself. I don't know much about Eastern Europe to be honest, but to travel halfway around the world to grind 1/2 seems silly.

If I wanted to stay in poker, Omaha is the future. But online poker is trending downward or near dead, and I don't want to be a live casino pro. I posted this in an attempt to understand how I could move away from poker, and build some valuable online skills so that I may (eventually) move abroad without having to teach english.

FWIW, I don't think its relevant to discuss how I got here. I am broke, I want to get out of my current career, and I want to learn what else is out there. To look back at how I arrived is irrelevant to how I can move forward.

If you can hustle and have decent social skills b2b sales jobs are always in demand.

@akwesi It's not a false dichotomy. I want to move away from poker. At the low stakes that I play, even the games in Vegas are not very profitable anymore, and it's very cheap to live in Vegas.

There are a few American cities where I could make it work, but I am not optimistic or interested in uprooting my life to play 1/3 abroad. I could attempt to wander Europe and follow tournament series, but I don't want to continue playing poker long term. I believe it's trending downwards and I want to build business skills going forward.

I've been thinking about teaching english as well, but it is kind of a last resort for me now and I would only do it as a quick way to get abroad again. I think it is a dying field. Online language learning software will eventually replace in person teaching. It is only a matter of time and I see it happening sooner rather than later.

In the same way, the online poker landscape has completely changed due to HUD's, better competition, and eventually AI/ bots etc as I'm sure your aware which will completely kill the game. If the online games were still like they were 10 years ago I would move abroad to grind professionally in an instant without a second thought.

So here we have two dying fields that were previously great options to escape america.

Honestly programming will probably be replaced almost entirely eventually by cheap 3rd world labor as well, not to mention all the frameworks popping up that make coding easier.. With shit like Word Press anyone can throw up a decent webpage in minutes now. Sure there will always be a market for more advanced cutting edge stuff but the barrier to entry is high.

Private labeling ali baba products for Amazon FBA, yep already saturated as well. Missed the boat on that one.

Not trying to be overly negative, but I always see the same ideas for getting abroad recycled over and over and there has got to be some better options.

I'm in similar situation as you OP, and looking to the future trying to figure out what's next. I'll be following this thread closely to see what you decide.

One thing I'm certain of and slowly coming to terms with myself is that it is not going to be easy to make all my income online, and is definitely going to take a shit ton of work. In theory it is possible, but I'm finding it takes an insane amount of discipline to pursue this path.

What I've been wondering is if it might be better to just work seasonal jobs in the USA for half the year, then travel the other half instead of trying to make income abroad. Although not ideal I still think it is a decent option if you can put up with working some shit job for a while. If you do it right you might even be able to travel a year or more off of 6 months of saving from a regular job. This option of course would mostly disregard common financial advice about saving for retirement.

Don't buy into the bullshit that you are what you own.

Money is not your self worth.

You had money before, you can get it again.

Focus on who you are, your values and get back to hard work to make your way in the world.

Poker players go broke all the time. I had a buddy that built up his roll to 2MM at Commerce, lost it all, borrowed from a friend and built it back up to 2MM, lost 1.5 of it back and then quit.

If I were in your shoes I'd try to borrow from a poker friend and build my roll back up. If the games are still good in your area you should be able to build your roll back up.

You can lose a or make a lot of money quickly in PLO, as I'm sure you know. Stick to playing in good games and practicing proper bankroll management.

If you play poker and do FBA on the side you won't have to take any money out of the amazon business and it will grow a lot faster.