i know what guys like G are saying. using roissy's definition justin beiber is more alpha than 99.9% of men on the planet. just doesnt sound right. but if you think about it. even though he looks girly and weak, beiber is rich, powerful, famous and has girls throwing themselves at him. who can argue with that

It's all functional. Bieber game, famous Wrestler game, doesn't matter unless it has relevance to the chica you're trying to bone.

Quote: (01-27-2012 08:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

It came from the Tucker Max thread, where people were beefing whether or not guy was a Alpha.

It seems that since Roissy did a good job of defining it, it has been taken as the defacto answer on here and in many places on the internet.

I agree that Roissy's definition of Alpha isn't perfect. But your criticism of his definition isn't enough to seriously challenge Roissy's definition of alpha, since Roissy was using the term merely to parse out what constituted an attractive male. Roissy rejects the common use of alpha to establish the man he's interested in: the man who is attractive to women.

You continue to miss my point.

If you go back to my original post, I said I liked the definition.

My issue with it was in the ranking of Alphas.

Where you an ex-boy band member or something?

Or love boy band music?

Something is clouding your thinking here.

Its funny how everyone makes up their own definition of "alpha".

Then we are argue over whose definition is "right".

I decided to "google" it.

Guess what? There is no such thing as "human alpha male".

"Alpha" is term created by scientists to describe animals, not humans!

I even googled "human alpha male" and you know what came up? A bunch of PUA crap. A bunch of guys like us arguing over something that doesn't exist.

In the animal world, the so called alpha has to fight other males literally to the death. The only thing Justin Bieber is fighting to the death is a headache.

And, according to wikipedia, the beta male is not what we often describe. The "beta male" is 2nd in command to the alpha. If the alpha dies, the beta male takes over his females. Not a bad deal.

Another interesting fact I learned is that the alpha male usually only interacts with the alpha female(s). That is the female who is the biggest, baddest, fighting female. In humans that would be something like this...



We are using these words incorrectly. They were not designed to describe humans.

This debate is literally "all semantics".

Quote: (01-28-2012 11:31 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote: (01-27-2012 08:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

It came from the Tucker Max thread, where people were beefing whether or not guy was a Alpha.

It seems that since Roissy did a good job of defining it, it has been taken as the defacto answer on here and in many places on the internet.

I agree that Roissy's definition of Alpha isn't perfect. But your criticism of his definition isn't enough to seriously challenge Roissy's definition of alpha, since Roissy was using the term merely to parse out what constituted an attractive male. Roissy rejects the common use of alpha to establish the man he's interested in: the man who is attractive to women.

You continue to miss my point.

If you go back to my original post, I said I liked the definition.

My issue with it was in the ranking of Alphas.

Where you an ex-boy band member or something?

Or love boy band music?

Something is clouding your thinking here.

And I'm not sure what's to object to his ranking system. He's just ranking them according to the criteria of that which is attractive to women.

So even if a 'loser' is more alpha than a 'winner', it doesn't matter, since Roissy is only interested in discussing that which is attractive to women.

Listen man, I'm not trying to shut you down. I'm only trying to help interpret what Roissy does. And Roissy clearly does not give a fuck about how accomplished a man is when it comes to alpha.


If anything, Roissy's definition of alpha is a strong case that being an alpha male is a rather empty life, like MikeCF stated in this thread.

Quote: (01-28-2012 12:06 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Another interesting fact I learned is that the alpha male usually only interacts with the alpha female(s). That is the female who is the biggest, baddest, fighting female. In humans that would be something like this...



We are using these words incorrectly. They were not designed to describe humans.

This debate is literally "all semantics".

that is not an alpha female. an alpha female isnt the most physically dominant, youre judging women by a male yardstick.

An alpha female is the most attractive female.

I see there are lots of Roissy fanboys here. Roissy's sheer inability to rank manly men proves he has very little clue about alpha men.

Quote: (01-28-2012 12:06 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Its funny how everyone makes up their own definition of "alpha".

Then we are argue over whose definition is "right".

I decided to "google" it.

Guess what? There is no such thing as "human alpha male".

"Alpha" is term created by scientists to describe animals, not humans!

I even googled "human alpha male" and you know what came up? A bunch of PUA crap. A bunch of guys like us arguing over something that doesn't exist.

In the animal world, the so called alpha has to fight other males literally to the death. The only thing Justin Bieber is fighting to the death is a headache.

And, according to wikipedia, the beta male is not what we often describe. The "beta male" is 2nd in command to the alpha. If the alpha dies, the beta male takes over his females. Not a bad deal.

Another interesting fact I learned is that the alpha male usually only interacts with the alpha female(s). That is the female who is the biggest, baddest, fighting female. In humans that would be something like this...



We are using these words incorrectly. They were not designed to describe humans.

This debate is literally "all semantics".

Your points are invalid because as Alpha's we don't care that we are "improperly" using the word. How do new words get formed every year? How do some words start to die out? What's your big concern with Wikipedia or Dictionary definitions. Stop giving a fuck about that stuff and use Alpha and Beta in the way they're supposed to be used. We're not wolves. We're humans.

Quote: (01-28-2012 01:42 PM)frenchcorporation Wrote:  

An alpha female is the most attractive female.

Where are you getting that definition?

Quote: (01-28-2012 02:27 PM)drymarro Wrote:  

[ How do new words get formed every year? How do some words start to die out? What's your big concern with Wikipedia or Dictionary definitions. Stop giving a fuck about that stuff and use Alpha and Beta in the way they're supposed to be used. We're not wolves. We're humans.

No one can agree on the definitions. Its an unresolved semantic issue in the lifestyle. PUA guys borrowed the word from scientists but its not a good fit. Animal alpha and human alpha are 2 completely different ball games. One has to the king of the jungle, the other can be Justin Bieber. The terminology is evolving and morphing, like you suggest. We need a new set of terms. Maybe someone can come up with something? Here is a rough start..

Instead of saying "alpha", we should say stuff like...

He is a "natural ladies man"
He is "good with girls"
He "gets alot of girls"

He is a "big strong" dude
He is a "tough dude"
He can "really fight"

He is "very successful"
He "is rich"
He "is a great businessman"

He "has a great personality"
He "is charming"

He "was the coolest guy in the room"
He "was the coolest guy there"
He "had the most game of anyone there"

We call guys alpha, when often they have mastered only one of these things.

Ok, maybe this was a bad idea!?!

Who cares? Just use the words how you want. We know what you mean!

Quote: (01-27-2012 04:18 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Women are always subordinate to my lifestyle.

Because of that, women always want to join the lifestyle.

Guys will miss the point of the post.

In 5-10 years, the young guys who have worked hard to make something of themselves will get it.

This is where I'm at in my life right now, and seeing older wiser men tell me its how they live makes me glad to know I'm on the right path.

I've never had that "go bang dozens of chicks" mentality.

I'm slowly turning game not into a tool to get lots of women, but a tool to get my choice of the above average women.

My view of the alpha female:

This is a mean bitch who can effectively manipulate large groups of girls beyond her own immediate girl group. Since most guys are tools, she easily manipulates large groups of orbiters to do whatever she wants them to. She's not necessarily the prettiest girl, but she could be. She's usually well above average if young. Strong correlation of beauty with age.

When you get into the working world, you'll see things differently. The alpha female is not necessarily pretty at all (reasons unknown, possibly age or some ugly Ivy League grad with an axe to grind), but still strikes fear into a lot of women and men everywhere.

Common denominator is the ability to effectively manipulate and control wide groups of men and women.

It's a functional definition. By defining it as he has, he then asks 'What is alpha?' The answers are what attracts women, the contents of his blog.

If he used the word 'Player,' would we be having this debate?

Quote: (01-29-2012 02:27 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

It's a functional definition. By defining it as he has, he then asks 'What is alpha?' The answers are what attracts women, the contents of his blog.

If he used the word 'Player,' would we be having this debate?

Yeah this is pretty much it. It's a semantic argument and doesn't denote any substantive disagreement. As Roissy routinely points out, many of the people who are considered "alpha" by his definition are neither traditionally dominant nor particularly praiseworthy characters. Since his blog is about what makes men attractive to women I think it's fine for him to use the term as shorthand for a sexually desirable male.

Quote: (01-29-2012 04:01 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2012 02:27 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

It's a functional definition. By defining it as he has, he then asks 'What is alpha?' The answers are what attracts women, the contents of his blog.

If he used the word 'Player,' would we be having this debate?

Yeah this is pretty much it. It's a semantic argument and doesn't denote any substantive disagreement. As Roissy routinely points out, many of the people who are considered "alpha" by his definition are neither traditionally dominant nor particularly praiseworthy characters. Since his blog is about what makes men attractive to women I think it's fine for him to use the term as shorthand for a sexually desirable male.

"Player" would have a different definition by the way I understand it.

A "Player' would attract a lot of women AND bang them.

By Roissy's definition, a guy like Ricky Martin who attracts tons of women but doesn't even bang them (he is gay, right?) would be higher ranked.

Hence, the "hole" I see in his definition.

Quote: (01-29-2012 05:18 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2012 04:01 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2012 02:27 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

It's a functional definition. By defining it as he has, he then asks 'What is alpha?' The answers are what attracts women, the contents of his blog.

If he used the word 'Player,' would we be having this debate?

Yeah this is pretty much it. It's a semantic argument and doesn't denote any substantive disagreement. As Roissy routinely points out, many of the people who are considered "alpha" by his definition are neither traditionally dominant nor particularly praiseworthy characters. Since his blog is about what makes men attractive to women I think it's fine for him to use the term as shorthand for a sexually desirable male.

"Player" would have a different definition by the way I understand it.

A "Player' would attract a lot of women AND bang them.

By Roissy's definition, a guy like Ricky Martin who attracts tons of women but doesn't even bang them (he is gay, right?) would be higher ranked.

Hence, the "hole" I see in his definition.

To me, to be a "player" is strictly reserved to someones sexual exploits, where "alpha male" is much broader than that.

You can bang lots of girls but still be broke, uneducated, uninspired and unsuccessful.

Quote: (01-29-2012 05:18 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2012 04:01 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2012 02:27 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

It's a functional definition. By defining it as he has, he then asks 'What is alpha?' The answers are what attracts women, the contents of his blog.

If he used the word 'Player,' would we be having this debate?

Yeah this is pretty much it. It's a semantic argument and doesn't denote any substantive disagreement. As Roissy routinely points out, many of the people who are considered "alpha" by his definition are neither traditionally dominant nor particularly praiseworthy characters. Since his blog is about what makes men attractive to women I think it's fine for him to use the term as shorthand for a sexually desirable male.

"Player" would have a different definition by the way I understand it.

A "Player' would attract a lot of women AND bang them.

By Roissy's definition, a guy like Ricky Martin who attracts tons of women but doesn't even bang them (he is gay, right?) would be higher ranked.

Hence, the "hole" I see in his definition.

I see your quibble with 'player,' which I hadn't anticipated - that's probably why Roissy didn't use it. 'Player' implies one is still actively banging several women concurrently, or trying to, or at least did it in one's past. A man who is highly attractive to women but say, faithfully married, is not much of a player, and may never have been.

As Chileno said, it's shorthand for a man found desirable by attractive women. There is no perfect or evocative word for that in English, far as I know. Courtier? Pretty boy? Ladies man?

Ironically, the lack of common use of 'alpha' is actually a good thing, because it means that it won't have a strong connotation. All the other terms have more loaded, specific meanings, eg, calling someone an 'Adonis' references only his looks.

Roissy was smart to ditch the whole "leader of men" or even "respected by men" bit, because a man be incredibly successful in seduction without them. Trying to become a "leader of men" as a route to pussy may work for some men, while for others it would run counter to their nature and just be a complete waste of time, especially nowadays.

The core of being Alpha is charisma. Not only have you become the protagonist of your own life (which can be a massive struggle in itself), but other people view you as a central figure in their lives as well. People begin to see themselves in you, sometimes- most of the time, without even being aware of it.

You've become the guy that everyone thinks and talks about. People are happy when things go your way, and they get sad when they don't. A woman will love you, and probably you only, even though she knows that you've got other women. If she doesn't, than you aren't a full alpha.

We talk a lot about the benefits of being alpha, but I've rarely seen anything about about the burdens. People expect a lot from you- you can never be lazy and beta-out. It takes a lot of energy. You always have to be "on." This is why famous people tend to value their privacy so much. As a famous person, your entire livelihood can depend on you being alpha, even when you aren't on stage or screen.

The stakes are much higher for an Alpha. When you fuck up, it can affect a large group of people. There were probably a bunch of people that either lost their jobs or had their reputations hurt when Mel Gibson bugged-out.

The majority of men will never be fully alpha. But, as far as it relates to game, guys can internalize some aspects that will help them get laid. There are ways that you can tell if you are giving off an alpha vibe. When you are in a room full of people, are you the center of attention? Do people constantly qualify themselves to you?

This is why body language is so key to game. It's all about communicating charisma without having to say anything. How you feel should dominate the room*. If you're in a good mood, than everyone else should be. If you feel lousy, than the vibe in the room should reflect that.

Game is about stopping yourself from acting beta while working to increase your charisma. The type of guy you are doesn't matter if you don't have it. You can be a strong manly-man, but without charisma, you probably aren't going to get laid. On the other hand, you could be a short, skinny, charismatic rockstar with a small dick that half of America's women want to bone.



*The focus has got to be on you. I make it a point to never look at other guys when I'm at a bar. If I have to look in in a guy's direction, I stare through them, or look at something behind them. I do this to neg girls sometimes.

Quote: (01-29-2012 05:51 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2012 05:18 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2012 04:01 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

Quote: (01-29-2012 02:27 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

It's a functional definition. By defining it as he has, he then asks 'What is alpha?' The answers are what attracts women, the contents of his blog.

If he used the word 'Player,' would we be having this debate?

Yeah this is pretty much it. It's a semantic argument and doesn't denote any substantive disagreement. As Roissy routinely points out, many of the people who are considered "alpha" by his definition are neither traditionally dominant nor particularly praiseworthy characters. Since his blog is about what makes men attractive to women I think it's fine for him to use the term as shorthand for a sexually desirable male.

"Player" would have a different definition by the way I understand it.

A "Player' would attract a lot of women AND bang them.

By Roissy's definition, a guy like Ricky Martin who attracts tons of women but doesn't even bang them (he is gay, right?) would be higher ranked.

Hence, the "hole" I see in his definition.

I see your quibble with 'player,' which I hadn't anticipated - that's probably why Roissy didn't use it. 'Player' implies one is still actively banging several women concurrently, or trying to, or at least did it in one's past. A man who is highly attractive to women but say, faithfully married, is not much of a player, and may never have been.

As Chileno said, it's shorthand for a man found desirable by attractive women. There is no perfect or evocative word for that in English, far as I know. Courtier? Pretty boy? Ladies man?

Ironically, the lack of common use of 'alpha' is actually a good thing, because it means that it won't have a strong connotation. All the other terms have more loaded, specific meanings, eg, calling someone an 'Adonis' references only his looks.

Roissy was smart to ditch the whole "leader of men" or even "respected by men" bit, because a man be incredibly successful in seduction without them. Trying to become a "leader of men" as a route to pussy may work for some men, while for others it would run counter to their nature and just be a complete waste of time, especially nowadays.

Yeah, so basically that is my issue.

Using Roissy's definition, a gay pop star (a little redundant, I know), who attracts thousands and thousands of women, but never swoops a woman would be more "alpha" than a guy who attracts and swoops 100 women per year .

Roissy also says that gay guys tend to have better game for females than most straight guys.

It's more alpha to have more options, even if you don't act upon them. If we are here to talk game, alphaness is measured by your ability to seduce women.

In the end, it's about getting what you want. As much as I'd like every guy to get good at game, there might be some who really are content just being beta followers. It's like the beta dogs who start to freak out if they don't have an alpha in charge.

This is alpha:

http://www.mensjournal.com/muscle-beach-...wn-of-huge
There was no such check on his other hungers, though: He loved women, and he loved them in bulk. “We’re in this bank line once in Venice, and he’s making eyes at the teller, a big old girl with a huge ass,” says Dan Howard, a Mr. America entrant who managed Gold’s Gym for four years. “Arnold says, ‘You haff nice breasts; now please to turn around. . . . Ah, yes, I like your backside. Take my phone number.’ ” Another time, Arnold brought a generously rumped skier to dinner at a crowded steakhouse. “He says to me, ‘Watch this,’ and throws her dress over her head; sure enough, she’s wearing no panties,” says Howard. “She runs sobbing from the place, then comes back in and says he told her not to wear any.” Drasin remembers feasting with Arnold at Donkin’s Inn, a dive bar and dance joint in Marina del Rey, where the crew had the run of big-haired girls who drove in from the Valley on weekend nights. “They’d come over and grab our pecs and say, ‘Are those things real? How do you get ’em so big?’ ” There were parties at the place Arnold shared with Columbu, orgies at a Venice bungalow, and a nightclub stocked with beach girls that Waller ran as a kind of private reserve. Often enough, they didn’t have to leave the gym; women wandered in from the nude beach in Venice, wanting a private tour of the lockers. “They got it, too,” says Drasin, “though it wasn’t unheard of to bang ’em right there on the gym floor.”

Mike, Arnie is a true alpha, he has achieved so many things in his life,from bodybuilder to actor to governator.

Quote: (02-02-2012 08:05 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

This is alpha:

http://www.mensjournal.com/muscle-beach-...wn-of-huge
There was no such check on his other hungers, though: He loved women, and he loved them in bulk. “We’re in this bank line once in Venice, and he’s making eyes at the teller, a big old girl with a huge ass,” says Dan Howard, a Mr. America entrant who managed Gold’s Gym for four years. “Arnold says, ‘You haff nice breasts; now please to turn around. . . . Ah, yes, I like your backside. Take my phone number.’ ” Another time, Arnold brought a generously rumped skier to dinner at a crowded steakhouse. “He says to me, ‘Watch this,’ and throws her dress over her head; sure enough, she’s wearing no panties,” says Howard. “She runs sobbing from the place, then comes back in and says he told her not to wear any.” Drasin remembers feasting with Arnold at Donkin’s Inn, a dive bar and dance joint in Marina del Rey, where the crew had the run of big-haired girls who drove in from the Valley on weekend nights. “They’d come over and grab our pecs and say, ‘Are those things real? How do you get ’em so big?’ ” There were parties at the place Arnold shared with Columbu, orgies at a Venice bungalow, and a nightclub stocked with beach girls that Waller ran as a kind of private reserve. Often enough, they didn’t have to leave the gym; women wandered in from the nude beach in Venice, wanting a private tour of the lockers. “They got it, too,” says Drasin, “though it wasn’t unheard of to bang ’em right there on the gym floor.”

Take my phone number, the brass ones that takes, and I'm sure the 'gina tingles that level of bold produces is astounding. That right there might be my new goal. Get to a point where I can be that guy.

Fame is the ability to court attention from strangers with little effort, so it makes you a lot more powerful than a guy who just radiates a physical presence among his peers.

Since women work by other rules than men, an alpha female is a woman who can use emotional manipulation and a very seductive personality to service her needs from both women and men. It has nothing to do with physicality though they tend to be more beautiful than most women. The general attention of the room just seems to focus on them.

I only know two of them myself, lots of fun to bring them to a bar and watch them essentially con 10-15 guys (at a crack) into buying them/me drinks. It's literally a whole different world that they live in where most people just seem to willingly serve them.

I don't think there is such a "thing" as an alpha. But if you want to describe the set of traits that are attractive to women, then it's handy to have a word for that set. It's handy, because that set is a tool that serves a purpose.

If you want to describe the set of traits that makes a man admirable, that's another useful tool that would be handy to have a name for.

In some contexts, like on a game blog where the focus is on how to attract and fuck women, we use the label "alpha" to mean that first set. In other contexts the label can mean the latter set.

The meaning of the term is contextual. If we were talking about monkeys it would mean something else.

I don't really understand why people insist on having alpha mean the same thing in all contexts. It's as if having a set of traits that are not all admirable and that leaves out some admirable traits and advocating that these traits be developed for the purpose of fucking girls is somehow a bad thing.

Yes, the set of traits that are attractive to women are most certainly NOT all admirable, and can very often be dishonorable.

But that's what we study.

I've often suggested to people who feel offended at having such a noble term "alpha" be sullied by the companionship of dishonorable members that they instead use a different term. Olpha. Just so that they can conceptualize along with the rest of the the same set of traits that are being described.

This has never been met with approval.

The people who don't like the term being sullied don't like the concept itself. It's not even about the definition of a word. They hate the very idea.

Being admirable is a deeply held value to them, and anything that doesn't approach that aspiration is smelly garbage to them.

Perhaps it's the Machiavelian among us who can use the term pragmatically as applied to the sole purpose of sexual persuasion.

And before someone chimes in with "yes, but I can use a subset of all attractive traits and get laid at least as well as if I also included the dishonorable ones", yes, you can use a subset of all the attractive traits.

Still, the rest of us care less about such honor, and will use all the attractive traits that work for the ends that we want. Sexual competition is not an honorable fight that goes according to rules and regulations. There are no rules. There is only outcome.

And I'd say Justin Bieber is getting a damned fine outcome. And I can't imagine his hot young fans would give even 1/1000th of a fuck how much any of us would want to have a beer with their boy Bieber.