All women love it. Euro chic's love it too, but they seem to care more about 'presentation' and how you dress, to show it off more. Its universal. The countries where its not as obvious are countries where its not as common to see gyms. A few years ago most of Europe had very few commercial gyms.

All women value muscle, but in the Anglosphere ... being muscular/somewhat lean is a requirement if a guy plans on fucking anything above a 6/10 on a consistent basis.

The muscle game is getting increasingly harder ... even since as recently as 2010. I was in college back then and don't remember seeing so many jacked dudes running around. Went to a reunion party at my old school this weekend and the average guy is noticeably bigger and leaner. I'd say a 10 pound difference easy.

Back in 2010, Zyzz was huge and the pinnacle of male physical perfection. In 2016, he wouldn't turn heads ... at least not in any decent Western gym. There are a dozen guys at my small gym who're more "aesthetic" than him.



^^In 2009, the whole Jersey shore crew was considered big and fit. Today, they'd be laughed at for even showing off their pathetic 1 year newbie gainz bodies. Like Roosh predicted, in near the future, steroids might become a requirement to get laid just as game is right now.

Quote: (05-16-2016 07:59 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

All women love it. Euro chic's love it too, but they seem to care more about 'presentation' and how you dress, to show it off more. Its universal. The countries where its not as obvious are countries where its not as common to see gyms. A few years ago most of Europe had very few commercial gyms.

I agree with that. From my experience too Euro girls are more about big tapered backs and chiseled abs, while American girls are more into giant arms and calves. American girls seem to like raw size.

Quote: (05-16-2016 01:37 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Getting jacked seems to be an arms race in the anglosphere.

I don't envy you guys playing the muscle game.

WIA

Stuffing your jeans is much easier I agree. Way more IOIs. Way less work.

I agree though USA is going AUS style with muscles. It is sad it is heading this direction. It isn't because guys love force feeding it is what the market demands.

I saw a few nerdy college guys with tank tops that definitely look like they lift today. NEVER could have dreamed of seeing this 10 years ago, people would have pointed at them like a circus animal. Things have been changing quickly.

When I first moved to Santa Barbara in 2013. I said to someone else, man the guys are dweebs compared to the chicks here. Busted dudes test passed (not overwhelmingly, good enough for USA). Well now 3 years later I see guys still dweeby in their mannerisms lifting and having a decent to good sense of style.

To counter balance this of course is the Asian girl fatness index. I see so many little fatass waddling Asian chicks around now it is a fucking disgrace. Where are the tiger moms to cage these girls up and starve them for Christ's sake?

The most horrific thing I have seen, and sorry to hate on Indian Americans, man the younger guys that are integrated and born here are often tall, good looking, lift etc... Their chick counterparts though, damn not nearly same level on average. For every 5 young good looking together Indian guys I see 1 Indian chick that matches that level. They bring in an unintended sausagefest.

Quote: (05-16-2016 07:53 PM)Rush87 Wrote:  

Further: In a country such as Australia. You can get a lot of lays purely off physique with zero game. Even with negative game... In France as a contrast, you will at a minimum be validated on your cultural knowledge/intellect to some degree by higher status women.

That's been the culture shock for me leaving Australia: discovering European girls aren't instantly turned-off by intelligence like the Aussie girls are, and I only have to dial my IQ presentation down by 20 instead of 50.

I always suspected our population was dumb, but I'm starting to have a better understanding of just how dumb Aussie Girls are. Now, I'm wishing I abandoned Australia back in my early 20's whilst Europe was still European.

Any info about Japan? What's the situation like there for a very built man? I've heard they see big bodybuilders as gay and a bit comical. An ex-bouncer mate of mine was going though four girls a day there a while back - he loved the regimented nature of their train system because it meant there was no chance of the girls ever meeting each other and he said it was great because "If you're packing 5 inches, they think you're John Holmes".

He was short, lean muscle though, low bf%. I'm starting to head into Powerlifter territory, myself.

^ I was in Japan in 2008/2009 ish and most the Jap girls prefered the skinny faggy type guys. Things might have changed a bit since then though.

A lot of American girls seem to value big over everything else, including money, handsomeness and even game. I am always amazed at how many big, ugly, semi retarded guys I see with hot, American women especially in Southern California.

European women like handsome, fit and intelligent guys, as it should be. At 6'1, 180 and very handsome, I am an 8 or 9 in Europe and a 7 in California.

On the other hand, being tall or big can hurt active approaches in the States because women get intimidated. In Europe this is less the case, probably because women there are not trained at a young age to look at all men as rapists. Actually women tend to seek out bigger guys in the states, in order to get protection from all the perceived rapists. I'm sure this sounds crazy to guys from outside the U.S., but it is our reality.

Quote: (05-04-2015 10:27 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

All women like a lean muscular physique.

The difference is the roided-out freaks actually have a sizable niche in the Anglosphere. In other parts of the world, that looks grosses women out.

Great comment.

Would add, in regards to Asia:

-Western women will display "sexual attraction" much more obviously than Asians do

-Other cultures e.g. Asian will have more dealbreakers for qualities that often come along with muscles. E.g. in west, the tough, rough look is attractive to a big chunk of girls - in Asia it's a turnoff for most (rough equates to poor, violent, low-status etc. They want rich, high-status and kind).

-Other factors are more important, particularly in developing countries or nationalistic, insular cultures. Social proof and style for instance.

Still, the majority of girls anywhere still much prefer a lean, strong, athletic, powerful physique over pot-bellied goblin-man, all else being equal.

BTW, if it's becoming a (literal!) arms race in the west, then given the time and effort it takes - I'd say it's not worth the effort.

"Keeping up with the jones" in terms of muscle mass just does not strike me as something a real man concerns himself with. Lean and athletic suits me and I dont care if every other guy has inflated 17" arms in 10 years.

I for one am not going to pound extreme amounts of protein, calories, chemicals and spend hours wrecking my joints with heavy barbells just to get a slight edge over the next guy in the looks race. I've been there and done that, and the results attributable to being jacked were marginal - the best lays came from pure game and I really doubt I would have "not got the girl" had I been 20lbs lighter, or arms one inch smaller.

There's much higher ROI on developing other traits that convey alpha dominance - leading, loud powerful voice, sexual/physical escalation, verbally handling other guys, etc etc. That shit you can dial up in a couple of months, and it puts you far ahead of the pack. It's also a massive differentiator.

"All women like a lean muscular physique. The difference is the roided-out freaks actually have a sizable niche in the Anglosphere. In other parts of the world, that looks grosses women out."

This pretty much sums it up in one paragraph.

I would go as far as saying the majority of Aussie women have a fetish for guys looking like juiced up gorillas, so what happens- half the male population heads to the gym to try and get bigger than the next guy to compete for these women. The amount of skinny fuckers I've known who suddenly get jacked in a year or two is ridiculous. It really is a terrible environment to compete in if you're not interested injecting yourself with gear meant for horses.

I've always had this theory that Aussie girls like a gym freak because they're usually pretty masculine and naturally big bodied themselves so being with a slim guy makes them feel insecure. They also don't seem to be too keen on clean cut, handsome men (God forbid the man be prettier than them) so being an average looking juice head will get you further than being a slim, 9/10 facially model type here. In Europe/Asia, I'm guessing the opposite would be true.

^Good insight Adrenaline... that makes sense. Especially for the average Aussie girl.

What about the real quality aussie chicks though. I DID see some real stunners at the beaches, and the upscale bars in the cities.

Presumably they aren't chasing roid-mate. What guys do these girls end up with?

Ofc it matters, its pure biology. I dont consider myselfe jacked but I get regurlarly complimented, and when I meet a girl from online for the first time many usually say something like they didnt expect me being that muscular, and Im not even that big at all. So yeah, it definatly gives you an advantage in certain enviorments, especially these days with the increase of obisety in the west. The question is more what level is ideal? From my experience as long as you can wear not to tight clothes and still give the impression that you are fit, then you are good. However, once your clothes comes of, being lean is crucial. The pic above with the Jersey Shores dudes is definatly enough (at least here in western Europe), the rest depends on your face, height, game and so on.

But generaly speaking, I agree that being jacked has becomed an arms race in the west where many guys with no game seek their masculinity by being bigger then evryone else, not necessarly for the girls. On a side note, I know its all over the forum but US and Australia seems really bad.

Quote: (05-16-2016 08:43 PM)Tex Wrote:  

Quote: (05-16-2016 07:59 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

All women love it. Euro chic's love it too, but they seem to care more about 'presentation' and how you dress, to show it off more. Its universal. The countries where its not as obvious are countries where its not as common to see gyms. A few years ago most of Europe had very few commercial gyms.

I agree with that. From my experience too Euro girls are more about big tapered backs and chiseled abs, while American girls are more into giant arms and calves. American girls seem to like raw size.

On Teesside, here in the north east of England, this is also the case. The women here, in keeping with Australian and US broads, it seems, very much seem to go for the beefcake look, i.e., stocky guys with broad shoulders, even if the guy is somewhat overweight. Other than that, it's all about the $$$.

In sharp contrast to continental Europe, especially countries such as France and Germany, being cultured and intellectual in my neck of the woods would actually count heavily against a guy, rendering him "weird". God bless the influence 'Murica for that development over the past 25 years.

Being jacked will catch the girls attention and give you leeway but if you don't have game you won't seal the deal or keep the girl around.

Quote: (05-16-2016 01:37 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Getting jacked seems to be an arms race in the anglosphere.

I don't envy you guys playing the muscle game.

Quote: (05-17-2016 04:34 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

BTW, if it's becoming a (literal!) arms race in the west, then given the time and effort it takes - I'd say it's not worth the effort.

Its pretty shitty in certain parts of the Anglosphere where its out of control (SoCal, Miami, Australia, parts of the UK). When steroid use becomes a relatively normal thing it results in average size standards being completely fucked up. But it's not nearly as big an issue outside of these extreme areas, elsewhere in the Anglosphere. If someone works out consistently 4 days a week for 2-3 years they'll easily be in the top 10% of guys anywhere else in the Anglosphere - nevermind in other cultures. And thats more than enough to help your game massively.

Every man will also benefit hugely (outside of game) from doing 3-4 hours of weight training a week anyway. So the increase in gym culture is probably an overall plus for society in that respect. Being fit and healthy with a decent amount of muscle on you has great hormonal and health benefits for men.

If I was stuck on a desert island for the next 10 years with no women (but with access to 200kg of weights) I'd still workout for myself and my body. Its got so many positives for you irregardless of women.

Gainz are life bruh

These are two most popular guys (as far as I know) on Instagram who are solely famous for looks (they aren't actors, athletes, singers, youtube personas etc):





If you check out what hot western sluts on insta follow, there is a good chance they will be following one of these guys. Both have 4-5 mil followers on Insta solely for being attractive to girls:
https://www.instagram.com/nick__bateman/
https://www.instagram.com/marianodivaio/

^ Basically tall guys with good looking faces and lean muscular swimmer type physique. Clearly spend time in the gym and diet, but hardly big/massive.

The idea that massive physique is the most attractive to Western (or any) women doesn't have basis in reality, but that doesn't mean that the guys with massive physiques don't have a payoff for their effort (as long as % of women who like massive physiques >>> % of men who have them). And face>>>body any day. Ceteris paribus I'll bet all day long on skinny guy with great face against muscular guy with ugly face.

Quote: (05-17-2016 05:39 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

^Good insight Adrenaline... that makes sense. Especially for the average Aussie girl.

What about the real quality aussie chicks though. I DID see some real stunners at the beaches, and the upscale bars in the cities.

Presumably they aren't chasing roid-mate. What guys do these girls end up with?

Inaccessible, unless you're good enough to break into their social circle which half the time consists of professional athletes and/or rich/powerful business types and the other half consists of tight knit friends of both sexes who haven't been split since high school/university. The former is more likely to be encountered in big cities like Melbourne and Sydney and the latter is more likely to be encountered in smaller cities like Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth. You might have some success with those girls if you get extremely lucky and can get their friends to like you somehow, but in the end it all comes down to being on the inside and getting there ain't easy.

Quote: (05-17-2016 01:45 PM)ComebackKid Wrote:  

^ Basically tall guys with good looking faces and lean muscular swimmer type physique. Clearly spend time in the gym and diet, but hardly big/massive.

The idea that massive physique is the most attractive to Western (or any) women doesn't have basis in reality, but that doesn't mean that the guys with massive physiques don't have a payoff for their effort (as long as % of women who like massive physiques >>> % of men who have them). And face>>>body any day.

I checked both profiles out of curiousity, and whilst classical good looks is obviously a large part of their success, I think a large part of their success relates to my theories about why certain pictures of men go viral, and these same tricks can be used to sell even Massive Men.

I can't find my posts now, but, basically, I believe women are trained by the fashion media to read certain types of photo framing as evidence of resembling male models you'd see the fashion magazines they grow up with, and Photo Game can instantly inflate your status a couple of points if you resemble the Aspirational Fantasy women are obsessed with rather than Genuine Reality.

Note how Nick's photos resemble fashion advertising, and how even 'candid' shots have an air of unreality about them: something has just happened or is about to happen. See how there's the implication of a aspirational lifestyle in just a shot on the beach? Note the Social Proof implied by how often someone else is taking a photo of him. (I avoid selfies for this reason). Particularly, notice Nick's repeated use of the elevated camera eyeline and submissive head tilt, putting the observer in a voyeuristic, powerful position above him, inviting the woman to appraise him as an object.

Look, if you want to up the mood in a conversation, you don't flash a dick pic, you simply send an 'Appraise Me' shot, such is this. The use of the dog is a genius touch.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BEjiZLRFOrB/...k__bateman

Yes, yes, I know this goes against Evo-Psych ideas about keeping an elevated chin, but I'm talking about your presentation through media.

The number of shares don't surprise me. He's doing this again and again because these are all advertising tricks that sell high value, and women can't help but respond to them.

Think about why chicks are into Instagram so much. Is it purely about attention whoring? Or is it simply that it's an easy way to make their reality resemble aspirational advertising with the flick of a filter? I'd also file the film style I'd call 'Apple Aspirational', (depth of field tricks, saturated colour, appraisal angles), under this, and understand why then I-Phones are such a valued brand amongst women.

These tricks work just as well for Big Guys. I was in the media a bit last year, and noted I was coming across as too proud each time. Think Jason Statham. I had some semi-professional shots done late last year mirroring these submissive tricks and - bang - now I now looked like an actor / model to the women I knew and the engagement rate was greatly-increased.

Here's a good example. This is a viral photo of a guy I'd consider in the Big , not lean and athletic, category that all the media sites were flicking the bean over last year:



Note the elevated camera angle inviting appraisal.

Now look at these two pics of him. Particularly notice he has a Lifter's Core, not a 'Athletic' core.



See how his 'reality' on the left already resembles fashion advertising? Now notice a classic example of 'Apple Aspirational' on the right, particularly the (roughly done) use of Exaggerated-Depth of Field. What's the message? "My reality is a step up from yours. Join Me."

This stuff is really easy to learn to do in Photoshop if you spend half an hour with a few Youtube videos and experiment. It's well-worth doing if your game style heavily-involves Dating Apps.

^^^ Brilliant post AB.

There is no hard and fast rule, but even in the west I think 7s 8s 9s put more value in a handsome face, nice hair, clothes/style, a cool lifestyle, wealth, and height. Yes having a great physique is a plus, but the hot girls who prioritize it are a niche. Obtaining a body like Jeff Seid isn't going to make up for some combination of shitty style, an ugly face, a lame personality, or being short. To get good looking girls in the west you need to be somewhat of a full package.

Quote: (05-17-2016 06:42 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

Quote: (05-16-2016 08:43 PM)Tex Wrote:  

Quote: (05-16-2016 07:59 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

All women love it. Euro chic's love it too, but they seem to care more about 'presentation' and how you dress, to show it off more. Its universal. The countries where its not as obvious are countries where its not as common to see gyms. A few years ago most of Europe had very few commercial gyms.

I agree with that. From my experience too Euro girls are more about big tapered backs and chiseled abs, while American girls are more into giant arms and calves. American girls seem to like raw size.

On Teesside, here in the north east of England, this is also the case. The women here, in keeping with Australian and US broads, it seems, very much seem to go for the beefcake look, i.e., stocky guys with broad shoulders, even if the guy is somewhat overweight. Other than that, it's all about the $$$.

In sharp contrast to continental Europe, especially countries such as France and Germany, being cultured and intellectual in my neck of the woods would actually count heavily against a guy, rendering him "weird". God bless the influence 'Murica for that development over the past 25 years.

I feel like its a mixed bag with this region. On one hand you have the chavy girls, and on the other you have an entirely differently class of high brow women. But at the end of the day, I think they all like muscles. Add in a little culture and conversation skills and you can hang with any of them.

^ Oh, one other brilliant touch in that Nick Bateman selfie. Note the gaming controller in his free hand, reinforcing to women that this is a spontaneous picture, showing how aspirational even his casual 'just chilling' reality looks, despite the deliberately-staged sexualisation of the photo, where I'm sure he held his abs in and adjusted the waistline of his pants just enough to sell his sexuality to his female fanbase.

Contrast this with a desperate bathroom selfie most women would get, where a guy is trying overhard to look fuckable. Nick's relaxed, casual, just playing video games shirtless with a snoozing dog. "Oh, you want a pic girl, sure..." See the difference in confidence this projects to women trained to read Fashion Cues?

The guy is a self-marketing genius.

Most the guys the girls go crazy over on IG also have hair like those two fags pictured above. Neither of them are impressively physically, just low BF. The guy in the cupcake shirt, what does he have, like 13" arms if he measured them with a good pump and flexing as hard as he could?