Is anybody into this? As a fundamentally rational person, I've always dismissed without attempting to understand the whole idea of magick and the esoteric. Increasingly though, I believe like many here, I've found the modern, nihilistic world philosophy that seems to prevail rather unsatsifying.

I'm at the very beginning of my investigation into all of this, and perhaps I will still conclude that it is kooky. However, I've been reading one of Aleister Crowley's books, Magick Without Tears, and whilst some of it is hard going/self-indulgent in the extreme, it is also incredibly thought provoking, and a work of true genius.

What's best about it is that it appears, given my relatively limited understanding so far, to tread an extraordinary line between the rationally satisfying, and the ritual, mythological aspect of the human condition - which to me is quite an extraordinary feat. It is at once science, myth, and philosophy, and for all my initial skepticism, it is very hard to refute much of what Crowley advances. As someone who has read much of the Canon of Western Literature, I can honestly say that very few things have ever made me think so hard, so deeply, or so often.

I understand if people don't necessarily want to post openly that this is something they are into, but if anyone sees this and thinks it is of interest, or is more experienced with the subject matter, I'd be fascinated to hear from you - either in this thread or by PM.

Aleister Crowley was one evil degenerate mother fucker. I personally would advise avoiding this stuff.

I think it's pretty interesting stuff. A lot of it though is completely misunderstood, like the whole demons thing. Demons actually being different parts of your psyche that you can unlock or bring out further instead of actually being real entities.

You should check out the book The Kybalian if you're interested in this sort of thing. It's pretty much the basis of all the magick taught by people like John Dee, Crowley, Blavatsky etc.

I was more into this when I was younger. I read a Carlos Castaneda book at about age 17, then read all of his others. He was an anthropology doctorate student at UCLA in the '60s and claimed to meet, and become the apprentice of, a Yaqui indian shaman. During a college research project I came to the realization that his stories are made-up. But it was extremely interesting reading, and I am sure he studied all sorts of occult authors and so forth before writing his fables.

I had another angle when I studied Kung Fu. A lot of martial arts have a mystical side. The cool thing with my training is that we did special sensitivity drills and so forth where we actually had evidence that we were doing science-defying things (blocking silent punches while blindfolded, for example). Perhaps we just really heightened our normal senses, or perhaps we really were developing our "spiritual senses."

Anyhow, Crowley was truly evil. I've read just a little of his stuff. Read about some of this shit he did. His writing is infectious with his poison.

I'm less into the stuff now. I needed something back then to make my life more interesting, and of course I've always wanted super powers. But now I'd rather do something like surf or ride motorcycles, or bang a hot babe, than spend hours in frustration trying to perform some kind of telekinesis by spinning a folding piece of paper, balancing on a pin, under a glass bowl. (You can freak people out by folding a piece of foil instead, and wearing a wool sweater. The static electricity will make it spin like crazy! For a whole night I thought I'd finally come into my magic power, then later did I realize it didn't work without the wool sweater...)

I became a (bad) Catholic. There is truly something about the mystical that the human psyche needs, whether scientific or objective or not. And a confession with a priest, especially if you believe it is somehow redemptive, is far more therapeutic and way cheaper than seeing a psychologist. This was after I got into studying all sorts of mystery religions, the Illuminati, and so forth. I figured I could find the secret esoteric doctrine within the Catholic church. I ended up as just a Byzantine Rite Catholic (liturgy like the Orthodox, but still Catholic) and not a Gnostic or Rosicrucian or something like that.

My spiritual gifts, or powers, if I am to have them, and if they aren't already in me but somehow locked, will come from God and not from hell. I'm going to have more than enough to answer for as it is.

Haven't we all reached for our phone a split second before receiving a text message, about to text that same person, or maybe expecting a text from that person? Coincidence I think not.

Quote: (07-10-2015 06:10 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  

I think it's pretty interesting stuff. A lot of it though is completely misunderstood, like the whole demons thing. Demons actually being different parts of your psyche that you can unlock or bring out further instead of actually being real entities.

You should check out the book The Kybalian if you're interested in this sort of thing. It's pretty much the basis of all the magick taught by people like John Dee, Crowley, Blavatsky etc.

I checked it out and have ordered a copy since it's practically free on Amazon - looks very interesting, thank you.

I think that's part of it, or it certainly was for me. You hear demons, or magick, and you think it sounds terribly childish, but I've gon further and further down the rabbit hole in the past few days, and althoughit gets curiouser and curiouser, it does still all make sense. I've not yet read enough to decide whether it is just appropriating real philosophical and scientific wisdom, and adding mumbo jumbo on top to fool the gullible, or whether there is any merit to it at all.

Quote: (07-10-2015 06:34 PM)Moto Wrote:  

I was more into this when I was younger. I read a Carlos Castaneda book at about age 17, then read all of his others. He was an anthropology doctorate student at UCLA in the '60s and claimed to meet, and become the apprentice of, a Yaqui indian shaman. During a college research project I came to the realization that his stories are made-up. But it was extremely interesting reading, and I am sure he studied all sorts of occult authors and so forth before writing his fables.

I had another angle when I studied Kung Fu. A lot of martial arts have a mystical side. The cool thing with my training is that we did special sensitivity drills and so forth where we actually had evidence that we were doing science-defying things (blocking silent punches while blindfolded, for example). Perhaps we just really heightened our normal senses, or perhaps we really were developing our "spiritual senses."

Anyhow, Crowley was truly evil. I've read just a little of his stuff. Read about some of this shit he did. His writing is infectious with his poison.

I'm less into the stuff now. I needed something back then to make my life more interesting, and of course I've always wanted super powers. But now I'd rather do something like surf or ride motorcycles, or bang a hot babe, than spend hours in frustration trying to perform some kind of telekinesis by spinning a folding piece of paper, balancing on a pin, under a glass bowl. (You can freak people out by folding a piece of foil instead, and wearing a wool sweater. The static electricity will make it spin like crazy! For a whole night I thought I'd finally come into my magic power, then later did I realize it didn't work without the wool sweater...)

I became a (bad) Catholic. There is truly something about the mystical that the human psyche needs, whether scientific or objective or not. And a confession with a priest, especially if you believe it is somehow redemptive, is far more therapeutic and way cheaper than seeing a psychologist. This was after I got into studying all sorts of mystery religions, the Illuminati, and so forth. I figured I could find the secret esoteric doctrine within the Catholic church. I ended up as just a Byzantine Rite Catholic (liturgy like the Orthodox, but still Catholic) and not a Gnostic or Rosicrucian or something like that.

My spiritual gifts, or powers, if I am to have them, and if they aren't already in me but somehow locked, will come from God and not from hell. I'm going to have more than enough to answer for as it is.

Haven't we all reached for our phone a split second before receiving a text message, about to text that same person, or maybe expecting a text from that person? Coincidence I think not.

Thanks for the detailed reply mate. I know exactly what you mean - how often have we been listening to our ipods with thousands of tracks on random, and thought, 'I want to listen to X', and it is immediately the next song on. I read somewhere ages ago that even the scientists aren't wholly sure that we aren't attuned subconsciously to other wave frequencies that we may not be aware of. In my very limited understanding, this is essentially what 'magick' is - trying to become attuned to other frequencies of the universe.

I've not yet seen anything to suggest Crowley is evil, I've just finished Magick Without Tears, and it doesn't seem evil to me. Egotistical and verbose in places, perhaps, but actually surprisingly clear and cogent in communicating what are essentially quite subtle and existential ideas.

Quote: (07-10-2015 06:54 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Quote: (07-10-2015 06:34 PM)Moto Wrote:  

I was more into this when I was younger. I read a Carlos Castaneda book at about age 17, then read all of his others. He was an anthropology doctorate student at UCLA in the '60s and claimed to meet, and become the apprentice of, a Yaqui indian shaman. During a college research project I came to the realization that his stories are made-up. But it was extremely interesting reading, and I am sure he studied all sorts of occult authors and so forth before writing his fables.

I had another angle when I studied Kung Fu. A lot of martial arts have a mystical side. The cool thing with my training is that we did special sensitivity drills and so forth where we actually had evidence that we were doing science-defying things (blocking silent punches while blindfolded, for example). Perhaps we just really heightened our normal senses, or perhaps we really were developing our "spiritual senses."

Anyhow, Crowley was truly evil. I've read just a little of his stuff. Read about some of this shit he did. His writing is infectious with his poison.

I'm less into the stuff now. I needed something back then to make my life more interesting, and of course I've always wanted super powers. But now I'd rather do something like surf or ride motorcycles, or bang a hot babe, than spend hours in frustration trying to perform some kind of telekinesis by spinning a folding piece of paper, balancing on a pin, under a glass bowl. (You can freak people out by folding a piece of foil instead, and wearing a wool sweater. The static electricity will make it spin like crazy! For a whole night I thought I'd finally come into my magic power, then later did I realize it didn't work without the wool sweater...)

I became a (bad) Catholic. There is truly something about the mystical that the human psyche needs, whether scientific or objective or not. And a confession with a priest, especially if you believe it is somehow redemptive, is far more therapeutic and way cheaper than seeing a psychologist. This was after I got into studying all sorts of mystery religions, the Illuminati, and so forth. I figured I could find the secret esoteric doctrine within the Catholic church. I ended up as just a Byzantine Rite Catholic (liturgy like the Orthodox, but still Catholic) and not a Gnostic or Rosicrucian or something like that.

My spiritual gifts, or powers, if I am to have them, and if they aren't already in me but somehow locked, will come from God and not from hell. I'm going to have more than enough to answer for as it is.

Haven't we all reached for our phone a split second before receiving a text message, about to text that same person, or maybe expecting a text from that person? Coincidence I think not.

Thanks for the detailed reply mate. I know exactly what you mean - how often have we been listening to our ipods with thousands of tracks on random, and thought, 'I want to listen to X', and it is immediately the next song on. I read somewhere ages ago that even the scientists aren't wholly sure that we aren't attuned subconsciously to other wave frequencies that we may not be aware of. In my very limited understanding, this is essentially what 'magick' is - trying to become attuned to other frequencies of the universe.

I've not yet seen anything to suggest Crowley is evil, I've just finished Magick Without Tears, and it doesn't seem evil to me. Egotistical and verbose in places, perhaps, but actually surprisingly clear and cogent in communicating what are essentially quite subtle and existential ideas.

You're welcome, I'm glad to share. For Crowley, he was a pedophile and into child sacrifice (and animal sacrifice etc...) Black magic is really dark shit. Vast majority of people into Satanism are just doing horrific shit and no payoff. Why would the devil help them by giving them power, when they are doing just fine on their way to hell without?

I also find the topic very interesting, much like any other religious or spiritual belief. There are actually quite a few comic books dealing with the subject, and I think they're quite accessible as well. Grant Morrison in particular is very good at explaining magick while entertaining the reader.

Also take anything people say about Crowley with a grain of salt or two. The so-called "wickedest man in the world" was bisexual, sure, but I challenge anyone to provide evidence that he fucked or sacrificed children to the devil. There is, however, tons of evidence to show that he enjoyed climbing mountains.

Haha, ye, in all my reading around on him, of which I've done quite a lot to make sure I'm not wasting my time reading what he writes, most of what I read suggests he was an avid mountain climber, one of the most brilliant minds of his generation, and a member of the intelligence services.

Equally, in Magick Without Tears, he suggests that his brand is actually white magick, because it is above all else based on nature's laws, whereas organised religion is black magick, because it tries to persuade people to act in a way that is wholly unnatural, and contrary to the laws of nature.

I think actually his work would be quite popular around here, if people could get over the stigma, as one of the primary virtues of white magick (as he calls it), is that it is fundamentally masculine in its philosophy.

Quote: (07-10-2015 08:23 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Is anybody into this?

I am. I find it fascinating and thought provoking.

What exactly do you want to know? What are your specific questions about it?

I am totally into this too. H1N1 you should check out Freemasonry. A lot of their initiation processes are ritualistic magick. Google how a Freemason initiation process works at each level and then check to see where the ritual magick comes in.

If you want a really interesting bit to delve down into take a look at occult symbolism. Freemasonry also has a ton of this as well. I'm of the belief that there's power in symbolism.

I have a really long "datasheet" written up on Astrology and how to use it for tracking cycles. It has been hanging out in drafts forever as I don't think in its current form it's very useful. I won't lie, I am a bit ashamed to post it since the rational side of me thinks i'm nuts.

As it is above, so it is below.

Quote: (07-11-2015 11:12 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Quote: (07-10-2015 08:23 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Is anybody into this?

I am. I find it fascinating and thought provoking.

What exactly do you want to know? What are your specific questions about it?

I suppose the fundamental question is where next? I've got the Tao arriving next week, and have Crowley's commentary on it. I've also found a .pdf of the Kybalion. I know Crowley advocates learning the Kabbalah, a fundamental part of which is the Tree of Life, but I've not really been able to find any definitive text on the Kabbalah (I have had limited opportunity to research deeply).

Crowley says this stuff is integral, and from reading around a bit on it it sounds fascinating. However, it is general/spiritual/religious philosophy, and while I recognise that a firm grounding in it is necessary to understand most of where Crowley then goes with Thelema, it seems like without reading those texts with a purpose/greater understanding of magick, it might be possible to read a lot around the edges without really getting deeper into what Crowley is really talking about. His own work, by his own recognition, is not particularly beginner friendly, and when I started reading things like the Book of Lies without any background, I didn't get anywhere at all with it.

So, yes, if someone such as yourself who is better versed can give me some guidance as to 'where next', I would appreciate it immensely.

Quote: (07-11-2015 01:14 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

I am totally into this too. H1N1 you should check out Freemasonry. A lot of their initiation processes are ritualistic magick. Google how a Freemason initiation process works at each level and then check to see where the ritual magick comes in.

If you want a really interesting bit to delve down into take a look at occult symbolism. Freemasonry also has a ton of this as well. I'm of the belief that there's power in symbolism.

I have a really long "datasheet" written up on Astrology and how to use it for tracking cycles. It has been hanging out in drafts forever as I don't think in its current form it's very useful. I won't lie, I am a bit ashamed to post it since the rational side of me thinks i'm nuts.

As it is above, so it is below.

I know exactly what you mean mate. I toyed with whether to post this or not, and still have moments where I'm saying to myself, 'For Christsake man, you're a grown up, don't be so stupid'. And yet...

I'll check out Freemasonry - my grandfather was a mason, apparently, though he died before I was born.

The occult around Freemasonry, Crowley (beyond 33rd degree Freemason) are one thing.

Some other experiences like mediation, contemplation, out of body travel etc. - that I do, but that has nothing to do with Crowley and the occult in my opinion.

But you can dabble into everything if it interests you.

Quote: (07-11-2015 04:59 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

The occult around Freemasonry, Crowley (beyond 33rd degree Freemason) are one thing.

Some other experiences like mediation, contemplation, out of body travel etc. - that I do, but that has nothing to do with Crowley and the occult in my opinion.

But you can dabble into everything if it interests you.

I'd classify out of body experiences an occult adventure, that and lucid dreaming are essential to certain aspects of the occult.

I haven't seen anyone write Magick with a "K" for about 20 years!

Excellent.

At the bottom of the rabbit hole, Freemasonry, Occultism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, New Age teachings, Magick, etc... are simply Satanic in nature. If you read the works of Helena Blavatsky and Manly P. Hall they make it very clear that their ultimate spiritual enlightenment comes from a being called Lucifer. They claim that this Lucifer is some sort of spirit or angel of light who seeks to enlighten mankind and teach us to essentially become gods. They deny that Lucifer and the Biblical Satan are the same being, which would be a rather strange coincidence in and of itself, and which is made even more unbelievable by the fact that Satan used the exact same technique to trick Adam and Eve that Lucifer uses today (the offer of secret knowledge which will make men into gods).

Quote:Genesis 3:1-7 Wrote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Lucifer and Satan are quite clearly the same being: http://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html

The Bible says flat out that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

A good, short introduction to the connection between Lucifer/Satan and Occultism: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/c...ucifer.htm

These occultist beliefs date back millennia to the ancient mystery schools and are preserved in the highest level teachings of occultism and within today's secret societies. No one suddenly decides, "Hey, let's worship the Devil!" Rather, the process is a slow and gradual one, initiated through deception and flattery, where the victim is convinced that he can unlock his potential through some secret knowledge. This is the great lie of Satan. There is no hidden knowledge. The truth has no reason to hide. The truth is out in the open and available to all men. The only thing that can prevent men from coming to full knowledge of the truth is their own hubris.

Quote: (07-12-2015 02:05 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

At the bottom of the rabbit hole, Freemasonry, Occultism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, New Age teachings, Magick, etc... are simply Satanic in nature. If you read the works of Helena Blavatsky and Manly P. Hall they make it very clear that their ultimate spiritual enlightenment comes from a being called Lucifer.

Bullshit. Manly P. Hall is anything but a satanist. The man is probably one of the greatest minds of the last 100-200 years. Prove your statement please.

I was actually about to post some Manly P. Hall videos, and you gave me a reason to do it sooner.

Quote: (07-12-2015 02:05 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

At the bottom of the rabbit hole, Freemasonry, Occultism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, New Age teachings, Magick, etc... are simply Satanic in nature. If you read the works of Helena Blavatsky and Manly P. Hall they make it very clear that their ultimate spiritual enlightenment comes from a being called Lucifer. They claim that this Lucifer is some sort of spirit or angel of light who seeks to enlighten mankind and teach us to essentially become gods. They deny that Lucifer and the Biblical Satan are the same being, which would be a rather strange coincidence in and of itself, and which is made even more unbelievable by the fact that Satan used the exact same technique to trick Adam and Eve that Lucifer uses today (the offer of secret knowledge which will make men into gods).

Quote:Genesis 3:1-7 Wrote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Lucifer and Satan are quite clearly the same being: http://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html

The Bible says flat out that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

A good, short introduction to the connection between Lucifer/Satan and Occultism: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/c...ucifer.htm

These occultist beliefs date back millennia to the ancient mystery schools and are preserved in the highest level teachings of occultism and within today's secret societies. No one suddenly decides, "Hey, let's worship the Devil!" Rather, the process is a slow and gradual one, initiated through deception and flattery, where the victim is convinced that he can unlock his potential through some secret knowledge. This is the great lie of Satan. There is no hidden knowledge. The truth has no reason to hide. The truth is out in the open and available to all men. The only thing that can prevent men from coming to full knowledge of the truth is their own hubris.

Nice.

Way to hijack an interest thread with your blatant proselytizing.

This may shock you, but loads of us don't think the Bible is worth the paper it's printed on. And it's irrelevant to this discussion.

The occult, magic, etc..are just blanket terms for explaining supernatural phenomena outside the constraints of formal religion. Naturally, it pissed off said formal religions.

I know quite a few people heavily into it, and they're not satanists or bad people in the slightest.

I would not say that Kabbalah (at least in the traditional, Jewish sense) is Satanic. It's largely based on esoteric parts (and interpretations) of the OT. For example, if you read Nahmanidies' commentaries on the Pentateuch (the Five Books of Moses), it's pretty obvious that he's not invoking anything Satanic.

With regard to New Age stuff and occultism, I think it possible they're screwing with something that we ought not to. To me, it seems as though there is something far more evil than what humans alone can do. You can call that whatever you want.

I'm gonna have to back up Scorpion here. I spent a lot of years researching this stuff (way more vigorously than the studying I actually did toward my psychology degree).

"Satan! Cry Aloud! Though Exalted Most High! Oh Me Father Satan! The Eye!"
(Aleister Crowley, Magnum Opus, Book Four)

"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not!"

and

"Masonry, like all the religions, all Mysteries, Hermetiscism, and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of it's symbols to mislead those who deserve to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it."

(Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma)

You can read all of Morals and Dogma. Albert Pike was the American 'hefe' of Freemasonry in his day.
MoralsAndDogma.pdfhttp://www.resist.com/Onlinebooks/Pike-M...dDogma.pdf

And here's something from the Gospel of Thomas to support what scorpion said about truth. This text is what started turning me towards the Church, in a roundabout way as first I thought I was more of a Gnostic.

Jesus says: ["Know what is be]fore your face, and [what is hidden] from you will be revealed [to you. For there] is [nothing] hidden which [will] not be revealed, nor <anything> buried which [will not be raised up!"]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/th...omas5.html

Quote: (07-12-2015 02:05 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

At the bottom of the rabbit hole, Freemasonry, Occultism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, New Age teachings, Magick, etc... are simply Satanic in nature. If you read the works of Helena Blavatsky and Manly P. Hall they make it very clear that their ultimate spiritual enlightenment comes from a being called Lucifer. They claim that this Lucifer is some sort of spirit or angel of light who seeks to enlighten mankind and teach us to essentially become gods. They deny that Lucifer and the Biblical Satan are the same being, which would be a rather strange coincidence in and of itself, and which is made even more unbelievable by the fact that Satan used the exact same technique to trick Adam and Eve that Lucifer uses today (the offer of secret knowledge which will make men into gods).

Quote:Genesis 3:1-7 Wrote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Lucifer and Satan are quite clearly the same being: http://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html

The Bible says flat out that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

A good, short introduction to the connection between Lucifer/Satan and Occultism: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/c...ucifer.htm

These occultist beliefs date back millennia to the ancient mystery schools and are preserved in the highest level teachings of occultism and within today's secret societies. No one suddenly decides, "Hey, let's worship the Devil!" Rather, the process is a slow and gradual one, initiated through deception and flattery, where the victim is convinced that he can unlock his potential through some secret knowledge. This is the great lie of Satan. There is no hidden knowledge. The truth has no reason to hide. The truth is out in the open and available to all men. The only thing that can prevent men from coming to full knowledge of the truth is their own hubris.

Robert Anton Wilson was into some pretty far-out stuff involving sex, yoga, drugs, meditation and various things drawn from authors like Crowley- like not saying "I" for a week.
Quite a lot of that (though I'm not sure all) is what made up "magic"-something seems supernatural because its effects are so out of the ordinary:
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
Reason can't always explain satisfactorily something that happens, or prepare us adequately for things when they happen whether due to lack of understanding or anything else, and supernatural ideas are always around to fill in the gaps.
Some of it like meditation or psychedelics or mental discipline has reasonable empirical support to recommend it for opening up the mind, but that's separate from any notion of magic-people kept doing it because they found it had a positive effect more than that their belief system required it.

Moto,

There are umpteen "occult" traditions that have no mention of Satan or Lucifer (or any of the 2 billion names the Bible calls him).

And for the ones that do...

So what? Even if Satan exists...

Lets play devil's advocate for a second. Who's to say that the Bible hasn't unfairly villainized him?!

Maybe God (ya know the guy who wiped out mankind in the flood) is the bad guy. And Satan is truly the angel of light. Something to think about...

I researched this stuff to see the other side of the spectrum. It is interesting to read, as I knew some kids in high school who were into it.

I think it's a just a different way to view the complex parts of our brain. After reading up on it, I've concluded it's a complex fantasy.

I believe there are ways we can unlock more potential from ourselves and our brains, but I don't think it's found here. And these people who believe that they can produce any sort of psi phenomenon that go the laws of physics are just gullible and misguided.

Chick Magnet and captain_shane, you both seem to miss the point. Obviously, if you look at occult teachings on the surface (and even if you dig in just a bit) they seem harmless at worst, and possibly beneficial. And the vast majority of people who get involved in the occult are not bad or evil people, and they aren't consciously setting out to get involved in anything Satanic. They are simply misguided and deceived.

When actually dig deeper into occult teachings, however, you find stuff like this. Here is an excerpt from a demon summoning ritual recorded in Manly Hall's magnum opus of occultism Secret Teachings of All Ages:

Quote:Quote:

The agreement set forth above is purely ceremonial magic. In the case of black magic, it is the magician
and not the demon who must sign the pact. When the black magician binds an elemental to his service, a
battle of wits ensues, which the demon eventually wins. With his own blood the magician signs the pact
between himself and the demon, for in the arcanum of magic it is declared that "he controls the soul who
controls the blood of another." As long as the magician does not fail, the elemental will fulfil to the letter
his obligation under the pact, but the demon will try in every possible way to prevent the magician from
carrying out his part of the contract. When the conjurer, ensconced within his circle, has evoked the
spirit he desires to control and has made known his intention, the spirit will answer somewhat as
follows: "I cannot accede to your request nor fulfil it, unless after fifty years you give yourself to me,
body and soul, to do with as I may please."
If the magician refuses, other terms will be discussed. The spirit may say: "I will remain in your service
as long as on every Friday morning you will go forth upon the public street giving alms in the name of
Lucifer. The first time you fail in this you belong to me."
If the magician still refuses, realizing that the demon will make it impossible for him to fulfil his
contract, other terms will be discussed, until at last a pact is agreed upon. It may read as follows: "I
hereby promise the Great Spirit Lucifuge, Prince of Demons, that each year I will bring unto him a
human soul to do with as it may please him, and in return Lucifuge promises to bestow upon me the
treasures of the earth and fulfil my every desire for the length of my natural life. If I fail to bring him
each year the offering specified above, then my own soul shall be forfeit to him. Signed . . . . . . . . . . . . .
" [Invocant signs pact with his own blood.]

Page 302 from the book: https://removetheveildotnet.files.wordpr...l-ages.pdf

Now, by all means, continue to tell us that occultism has nothing to do with Satan.