Lots of guys in here with terrible math skills. Does anyone know how statistical sampling works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)

Quote:Quote:

A forum called PropeciaHelp is obviously going to attract people that haven't had a good experience with the drug. If you take a drug and it works well you aren't going to join a community dedicated to discussing side effects and sharing negative experiences. The idea that 10-20% of users have such debilitating side effects is ridiculous -- if it were that widespread, there would be huge public outrage considering the millions of people that take Propecia.

Quote:Quote:

No offense, brother, but your 10%-20% figure is bullshit. Going to a forum where the 1% affected hangout and share notes is no way to accurately gauge the rate of side effects. It's like going to the Victoria Secret fashion show and concluding that all women are hot and in shape.

You guys have it backwards. The only way thousands of men could have joined that forum is if tens, if not hundreds, of thousands more were affected negatively by the drug. The fact is most men with bad side effects will go to their doctor, stop taking the drug, and then never report on it online. That so many men have joined a forum after being unable to be helped by their doctor shows there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with propecia.

Obviously the forum will attract mostly worst case users of the drug, but you've failed to see the big picture if you think that's all the forum represents. The internet is nothing more than a giant statistical sampling machine. The individual forums representing niche interests are still representative of a larger population otherwise the niche wouldn't exist in the first place. A forum represents the extreme right-hand side of the bell curve, but that doesn't mean the rest of the bell curve doesn't exist.

Quote:Quote:

I've been taking finasteride semi-regularly for years at the 1.25 mg dosage without serious side effects. Are my cumshots smaller? Probably. Can I still pop boners at age 40? Yes. Are they as good as they were when I was 20? Nope, but dude, I'm 40.

See, this is what I thought too, that age was causing me to suffer when in fact it was the drug. You're so full of pride you cannot admit the obvious. Keep clinging to your hair because that's so much more important than your penis. The drug is slowly killing you. Your boners at 40 shouldn't be that much worse than at 20. It should only be a negligible decrease.

Quote:Germanico Wrote:

I feel for you man. Thanks for sharing, I was considering getting some, also out of vanity. One of my students got it last year and reported no bad effects. But since, he broke up with his THREE girls and Ive noticed him struggling over the most basic game concepts like not being needy. Ill make sure he reads this.

Luckily you where in enough good health and knew your body well enough to notice a decline. Most men are in terrible shape and wouldnt be able to tell if something went wrong.

By the way, last Halloween I shaved my head and went as Walter White. I fucked a 20 year old preppy chick that night. So now I know hair or no hair, game trumps it all.

Exactly. Interestingly enough, on Roissy's dating market value test, the "do you have hair" question is only worth 1 point. Conversely, questions related to testosterone: having tight game, having a strong physique, being aggressive, etc, total up to around 30 points or more. (There is a total of 50 points on the male test.) The choice between hair and testosterone for getting laid is pretty obvious, yet a lot of men are easily blinded by vanity.

Thanks for sharing man. I second the article as ROK worthy.

I started using propecia back in 2010 at the urging of my then fiancé (both of us late 30's) who preferred me with a full head of hair. I also preferred the full head of hair so I started using it as directed. By the 2nd day I wanted to scratch my scalp off and my internal voice said, "this ain't right. You're getting older and for you it means balder, deal with it". I stepped out of the bathroom and told her I wasn't going to use it again. She begged me to keep using saying how much better I would look with hair. I'll skip over the 6 months details of random "I like you with hair, you better get used to me bald" arguments and say we broke up a year later in 2011. After we broke up I started shaving my head. 3 months later I was banging a 24 yr. old (I was 38 at that time) who kept telling me "you look so hot bald and with a beard". I'm currently gaming a 25 yr. old who says the same thing. Glad I listened to that internal voice.

Props on the post. You may have saved me...who knows, in the next 5 yrs I may have felt the need to go on it. Thanks!

If the cloning thing or other development doesn't happen, I plan on going overseas and getting hair transplant done.

I know a guy from Iran (a very rich man) who still visits that area (Turkey, etc) many times a year. He said that's the place to get it done...really cheap, like a few grand (much cheaper than U.S.). He says he always sees American dude walking around with blood bandages over there, healing up before heading back to the states.

Anyway, good luck getting that leg back into shape and beefing up.

Important article Samseau.

I already commented once on propecia, finasteride.

I personally took it for a few years as some of my MD friends have started taking it. In some areas up to 50% of young doctors take it, so it's rather common.

I did not experience the negative side effects except for a small decrease of libido. But I came upon the site you mentioned as I started researching alternative medicine a few years ago. I dropped the stuff quickly afterwards.

Personally I would never recommend finasteride for anyone due to the massive long-term side-effects. Keep in mind that you take that drug for decades.

There are other things one can do to keep his hair - supplements and diet change are potential alternatives with zero negative side-effects. All men should stay away from finasteride.

Quote: (06-01-2015 10:31 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Lots of guys in here with terrible math skills. Does anyone know how statistical sampling works?

You guys have it backwards. The only way thousands of men could have joined that forum is if tens, if not hundreds, of thousands more were affected negatively by the drug. The fact is most men with bad side effects will go to their doctor, stop taking the drug, and then never report on it online. That so many men have joined a forum after being unable to be helped by their doctor shows there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with propecia.

I believe you have terrible math skills. So what if a forum has a lot of posters? Have their side effects been verified by a licensed practitioner? Are some of them trolls? Are some suffering from placebo and/or nocebo effects?

I did a quick google search and stumbled upon this journal-reviewed article. It reviews the actual side effects as reported in numerous peer-reviewed journal articles. Some excerpts out of the article are (I've bolded the most choice sections of the quotes):

Quote:Quote:

A number of studies have looked at the problem of side effects caused by finasteride.[6–11] These studies which are discussed below reveal that sexual adverse effects occur at the rates of 2.1% to 3.8%, erectile dysfunction (ED) being the commonest followed by ejaculatory dysfunction and loss of libido. These effects occurred early in the therapy and returned to normal on stopping or over a time on continuous use of the drug. The only causal relation between finasteride and sexual adverse effects is decreased ejaculatory volume because of predominant action of DHT on prostate.

The only causal relation that the researchers could actually verify is decreased ejaculatory volume. Every other symptom they could not statistically prove.

Quote:Quote:

The role of nocebo effect in the causation of ED due to finasteride has been investigated.[7] Nocebo effect refers to an adverse effect that results from the psychological awareness of the possibility of the side effects, but is not a direct result of the specific pharmacological action of the drug. In this study, the group informed about the sexual adverse effects of finasteride reported increased incidence of ED, when compared to the group without information.[7] The side effects were completely reversible in 5 days when the medicine was discontinued, confirming that nocebo effect has an influence in causation of side effects and suggesting the role of psychological factors.

Don't underestimate the power of a psychosomatic response.

Quote:Quote:

Two studies in 1998 and 1999 showed that the incidence of these side effects with finasteride therapy was generally comparable to that observed with the treatment with placebo,[8,9] and there was no evidence of dose dependency or increased incidence with longer therapy out to 12 months. In addition, the side effects ceased in patients even when they continued to receive finasteride.

Two studies corroborate the claim that the difference in side-effect profile between Propecia and placebo is not statistically significant.

Quote:Quote:

A long term study showed that drug-related sexual side effects such as decreased libido, ED, and ejaculatory disorders occurred in <2% of men.[10] These side-effects disappeared not only in all men who stopped the drug because of the side effects but also in most of those who continued therapy. The incidence of each side effect mentioned decreased to ≤0.3% by the fifth year of treatment with finasteride. The incidence of side effects were comparable to that of placebo both at one year and at 5 years.

A large prospective study in as many as 17,313 patients was conducted to look into the effects of finasteride and other covariates on sexual dysfunction as part of the analysis of The Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial (PCPT).[11] Sexual dysfunction was assessed in the 17,313 PCPT participants who received finasteride 5 mg during a 7-year period. Finasteride increased sexual dysfunction only slightly even at 5 mg dosage (which is much higher than the 1 mg administered in pattern hair loss) and its impact diminished over time. The authors concluded that the effect of finasteride on sexual functioning is minimal for most men and should not impact the decision to prescribe or take finasteride. A recent review of the available literature too arrived at similar conclusions.[12]

17,313 participants in a National Cancer Institute Trial > random observations from anonymous Internet posters. I'm also noticing a pattern that the side-effect profile diminishes over time as the body becomes used to the drug.

Quote:Quote:

However, there are more recent studies, which seem to have documented contrary findings.[13] Avery recent study by Irwig MS et al,[13] which has beenwidely reported in lay press and internet reported findings after conducting standardized interviews with 71 otherwise healthy men aged 21-46 years who reported new onset of sexual side effects associated with the temporal use of finasteride in which the symptoms persisted for at least three months despite stopping the drug. The study revealed that the subjects reported new-onset persistent sexual dysfunction (low libido, ED, and problems with orgasm) associated with the use of finasteride. The mean number of sexual encounters per month dropped and the total sexual dysfunction score increased for both before and after finasteride use (P < 0.0001 for both). The mean duration of finasteride use was 28 months and the mean duration of persistent sexual side effects was 40 months from the time of finasteride cessation to the interview date. However, there were many limitations in the study, such as small number of patients, selection bias, recall bias for before finasteride data, and no serum hormone analysis. The study recommended that physicians treating male pattern hair loss (MPHL) should discuss the potential risk levels with patients while prescribing the drug.

There have been smaller studies done that have observed a deleterious side-effect profile, but these studies have had a smaller number of participants, which could skew the results.

Quote:Quote:

An important earlier study by Mella et al,[14] conducted a systematic review of twelve randomized trials evaluated the efficacy and safety of finasteride therapy in 3927 male patients. Moderate-quality evidence was found for an increase in erectile dysfunction (RR, 2.22 [95% CI, 1.03-4.78] and a possible increase in the risk of any sexual disturbances (RR, 1.39 [95% CI, 0.99-1.95]; However, the risk of discontinuing treatment because of sexual adverse effects was similar to that of placebo (RR, 0.88 [95% CI, 0.51-1.49] (moderate-quality evidence).

Systematic reviews of randomized trials are not nearly as good well-designed large-scale randomized studies, so take the authors' conclusion for what it's worth.

To conclude: finasteride causes side effects in 1-2% of male users. The most frequently reported side effect is erectile dysfunction. These side effects almost always disappear after ceasing use of drug. Side effects diminish over time if patient keeps using drug.

There is no better drug out there to restore your hair to youthful levels. Every drug out there has a side-effect profile. It's up to the user to evaluate the pros and cons before deciding to take the drug. Obviously in your opinion the cons outweigh the pros for finasteride. I completely understand that. But then raging a war against the drug without also looking at the medical evidence is fraught with error and may make some of the forum members think that they can do nothing to save their hair when that's not true.

PUA_Rachacha: Not only are you bad at math, and not only did you fail to refute a SINGLE mathematical principle I showed you, but you're also terrible at science! I'm about to rape your peer-reviewed studies, why don't you get some lube on hand?

To start, all of your evidence comes from this page:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3481923/

Which then uses a bunch of other "peer-reviewed" science articles to justify their claims.

The first one:

Quote:Quote:

A long term study showed that drug-related sexual side effects such as decreased libido, ED, and ejaculatory disorders occurred in <2% of men.[10]

What does [10] link to?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11809594/

Quote:Quote:

BACKGROUND: Finasteride 1 mg (Propecia) is indicated for the treatment of men with androgenetic alopecia (male pattern hair loss, MPHL). However, the long-term (> 2 years) efficacy and safety of finasteride in this population has not been previously reported. Objectives. To assess the efficacy and safety of finasteride in men with MPHL compared to treatment with placebo over five years.
METHODS:
In two 1-year, Phase III trials, 1,553 men with MPHL were randomized to receive finasteride 1 mg/day or placebo, and 1,215 men continued in up to four 1-year, placebo-controlled extension studies. Efficacy was evaluated by hair counts, patient and investigator assessments, and panel review of clinical photographs.

LOL! 1 year studies? Is this shit for real? They conclude the drug is safe off 1 year studies? That's like having someone smoke cigarettes for 1-year then conclude they are safe! LOL you call this science? Peer-reviewed? Only suckers accept this.

The next line of your "peer-reviewed" article says,

Quote:Quote:

A large prospective study in as many as 17,313 patients was conducted to look into the effects of finasteride and other covariates on sexual dysfunction as part of the analysis of The Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial (PCPT).[11]

What does the [11] link to?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17596576/

Quote:Quote:

The Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial (PCPT) was a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study of the efficacy of finasteride in preventing prostate cancer in 18,882 men aged 55 years or older. The PCPT offered an opportunity to prospectively study the effects of finasteride and other covariates on sexual dysfunction.

Damn! Using results conducted on men over the age 55 and giving it to men age 20-40? Is this for real? You call this science? Anyone who thinks this is science is either shilling or just incredibly ignorant.

Here's another "peer-reviewed" article from pub med:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22972968

Quote:Quote:

BACKGROUND: The Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial (PCPT)-a randomized placebo-controlled study of the efficacy of finasteride in preventing prostate cancer-offered the opportunity to prospectively study effects of finasteride and other covariates on the health-related quality of life of participants in a multiyear trial.

METHODS: We assessed three health-related quality-of-life domains (measured with the Health Survey Short Form-36: Physical Functioning, Mental Health, and Vitality scales) via questionnaires completed by PCPT participants at enrollment (3 months before randomization), at 6 months after randomization, and annually for 7 years. Covariate data obtained at enrollment from patient-completed questionnaires were included in our model. Mixed-effects model analyses and a cross-sectional presentation at three time points began at 6 months after randomization. All statistical tests were two-sided.

RESULTS: For the physical function outcome (n = 16 077), neither the finasteride main effect nor the finasteride interaction with time were statistically significant. The effects of finasteride on physical function were minor and accounted for less than a 1-point difference over time in Physical Functioning scores (mixed-effect estimate = 0.07, 95% confidence interval [CI] = -0.28 to 0.42, P = .71). Comorbidities such as congestive heart failure (estimate = -5.64, 95% CI = -7.96 to -3.32, P < .001), leg pain (estimate = -2.57, 95% CI = -3.04 to -2.10, P < .001), and diabetes (estimate = -1.31, 95% CI = -2.04 to -0.57, P < .001) had statistically significant negative effects on physical function, as did current smoking (estimate = -2.34, 95% CI = -2.97 to -1.71, P < .001) and time on study (estimate = -1.20, 95% CI = -1.36 to -1.03, P < .001). Finasteride did not have a statistically significant effect on the other two dependent variables, mental health and vitality, either in the mixed-effects analyses or in the cross-sectional analysis at any of the three time points.

CONCLUSION: Finasteride did not negatively affect SF-36 Physical Functioning, Mental Health, or Vitality scores.

1. Not once is it stated the age of the participants.

2. Not once is it stated how long they took finasteride.


All I've learned today is that the medical industry is extremely corrupted, and personally I won't be using any medicine that hasn't been proven to work at least 50 years ago.

PUA_Rachcha: Your next post needs to be either a refutation of anything I've said, or not post at all in this thread, or I'm gonna report you for shilling/trolling.

Also, keep in mind that there are also all the research studies applying finasteride to benign prostatic hyperplasia. This is a problem that the majority here will get in their lifetime. The only alternatives to treatment besides finasteride, is watchful waiting (doing nothing) or surgery. Surgery is a serious operation with many risks and to be avoided if possible. You may not want to avoid this drug unless you are the 1% who are allergic to it. Hopefully, there will be better options in the future.


"CONCLUSION: Finasteride is a well-tolerated and effective alternative to watchful waiting in the treatment of moderate BPH."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1335066/

Quote: (06-01-2015 01:50 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

PUA_Rachcha: Your next post needs to be either a refutation of anything I've said, or not post at all in this thread, or I'm gonna report you for shilling/trolling.

Dude, come on. Blaming 25 lbs weight loss and a gym injury on hair pills is completely bizarre and insane. There is no way that finasteride can cause you to lose that much weight in such a short time period. Even AIDS doesn't take off weight that quickly.

Unless the finasteride you were taking was laced with an incredibly strong stimulant there's no way it could cause you to lose so much body mass without you making some extreme changes to your diet.

Feel free to report me as a shill for calling you out, since clearly anyone who doesn't believe finasteride is poison is a shill for big pharma.

I am balding since 19 and I have never thought about using Propecia since I heard about it. I really don't wanna take a risk and find out if i'm the unlucky guy who gets the sides and gets permanent sex drive loss or whatever else shit they can cause. Im much happier without the hair then I would be with hair but without the drive.

Quote: (06-01-2015 02:43 PM)fareast Wrote:  

Quote: (06-01-2015 01:50 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

PUA_Rachcha: Your next post needs to be either a refutation of anything I've said, or not post at all in this thread, or I'm gonna report you for shilling/trolling.

Dude, come on. Blaming 25 lbs weight loss and a gym injury on hair pills is completely bizarre and insane. There is no way that finasteride can cause you to lose that much weight in such a short time period. Even AIDS doesn't take off weight that quickly.

Unless the finasteride you were taking was laced with an incredibly strong stimulant there's no way it could cause you to lose so much body mass without you making some extreme changes to your diet.

Feel free to report me as a shill for calling you out, since clearly anyone who doesn't believe finasteride is poison is a shill for big pharma.

Seriously - side effects vary from person to person and with the case of finasteride it's not a simple "hair pill". It impacts male testosterone household by simulating female hormones - the effect against hair-loss is actually a small side-effect of the original goal of the drug. Why is it so hard to understand that anything affecting the male hormone household can have massive side-effects?

I have 2 other friends who took the stuff. One is an MD and is still taking it, I stopped, but had little side effects. Another friend took it for a few weeks and it fucked up his system completely - he noticed such a strong decrease in libido, that it wasn't funny.

Studies in our times have to be analysed strongly. Finasteride in contrast to a cold medicine is to be taken for years and decades even. Peer-review means little nowadays and you have to take a hard look into the study design.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...octor.aspx

Quote:Quote:

Bias #1: Unwanted Results are Not Published
Bias #2: Bad Results are Submitted as Good
Bias #3: A Favorable Study is Submitted Multiple Times
Bias #4: Follow-Up Reviews Done by Biased Experts
Bias #5: Ghostwriting
Bias #6: Journal Bias
Bias #7: Drug Companies Masquerading as Educators

You can read the article and check out the links in it. One of my best friends is an MD and highly successful as a country manager for a large pharmaceutical company. He confirmed all the points to me in private. In a way he does not care too much and on the other hand he claims that is still the best system we've got. Well - I would say, it's better than the primitive times 100 years ago, but it could be 100 times better. But that is my opinion - we don't even debate much on the topic, since he says that it wouldn't even matter much to him if everything I say about medicine is true. He follows the guidelines and has to believe in it to a certain degree to do his job well. A healthy detachment of all helps with this.

Quote: (06-01-2015 02:59 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Quote: (06-01-2015 02:43 PM)fareast Wrote:  

Quote: (06-01-2015 01:50 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

PUA_Rachcha: Your next post needs to be either a refutation of anything I've said, or not post at all in this thread, or I'm gonna report you for shilling/trolling.

Dude, come on. Blaming 25 lbs weight loss and a gym injury on hair pills is completely bizarre and insane. There is no way that finasteride can cause you to lose that much weight in such a short time period. Even AIDS doesn't take off weight that quickly.

Unless the finasteride you were taking was laced with an incredibly strong stimulant there's no way it could cause you to lose so much body mass without you making some extreme changes to your diet.

Feel free to report me as a shill for calling you out, since clearly anyone who doesn't believe finasteride is poison is a shill for big pharma.

Seriously - side effects vary from person to person and with the case of finasteride it's not a simple "hair pill". It impacts male testosterone household by simulating female hormones - the effect against hair-loss is actually a small side-effect of the original goal of the drug. Why is it so hard to understand that anything affecting the male hormone household can have massive side-effects?

I don't doubt that finasteride causes side effects, often serious, in a small percentage of users. My point is that it simply isn't possible for a hormonal drug like fin to cause such a huge level of weight loss, whether it's muscle mass or fat, or contribute to a joint injury.

To lose 25 lbs in six months without making any changes to your activity level you need to eat a diet that puts you around 500 calories in deficit at the end of each day. That's not something you do unintentionally.

As for the point about peer review, sure -- I agree with you. The thing is, if millions of people take a drug that produces such horrible side effects in 10-20% of users, it isn't possible to cover it up and pretend everything is alright using dodgy studies.

Bad side effects occur in a tiny minority of people that take finasteride, not anything even approaching 10% of users. Samseau's situation sounds awful, but his experience and a forum that's only going to attract people with similar experiences doesn't prove that there's a serious problem with fin or a cover up by pharmaceutical companies.

Great post and should definitely be posted on ROK. Whether or not it IS as high as '10-20%' is besides the point. It has been proven that a percentage of men WILL be affected and that's the message that needs to be reached.

@ Samseau:

Report me if you must, I'm the one who's acting rationally here. And why would I shill a generic medication?

I'm not advocating that anyone take Propecia. Hell, I don't because I'm scared of the sides. But to downright say that everyone should stop taking Propecia right this instant, even if it's working for the vast majority of people, is fear mongering and not conducive to a spirited debate that benefits this community.

@ Zelcorpion: you posting a few anecdotes and linking to Mercola, whom some consider a quack, does not help your cause. Additionally, my understanding of the drug's mechanism of action is that it inhibits the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT); DHT in turn can cause hair follicles to thin and slowly die. It in no way stimulates "female" hormones, whatever that is.

@ CH-Toronto: The FDA has now insisted that a warning label be put on every box of Propecia warning of potential sexual side effects. This mean that your doctor must warn you about the risks, i.e., the message is getting out there.

I think that GLL does a great job listing the pros and cons of taking finasteride. I'll let each forum member decide for his own if the benefits warrant the risks. If you have permanent loss of libido, which is extremely rare, then you can go on HRT.

I don't see anyone trolling in this thread. The OP reported his experience and is cautioning others about this drug. Other guys have not had negative side effects like myself. My only regret is not taking Fin earlier. I advise to make a thorough investigation and like all decisions do a cost benefit analysis.

Quote: (06-01-2015 02:43 PM)fareast Wrote:  

Quote: (06-01-2015 01:50 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

PUA_Rachcha: Your next post needs to be either a refutation of anything I've said, or not post at all in this thread, or I'm gonna report you for shilling/trolling.

Dude, come on. Blaming 25 lbs weight loss and a gym injury on hair pills is completely bizarre and insane. There is no way that finasteride can cause you to lose that much weight in such a short time period. Even AIDS doesn't take off weight that quickly.

Try reading for comprehension. I clearly state in the first post that I thought my injury was gym related when in fact it wasn't at all.

Quote:Quote:

Unless the finasteride you were taking was laced with an incredibly strong stimulant there's no way it could cause you to lose so much body mass without you making some extreme changes to your diet.

Completely wrong. Without muscle you lose tons of weight. Muscle is the second heaviest part of your body after bones.

Quote:Quote:

Feel free to report me as a shill for calling you out, since clearly anyone who doesn't believe finasteride is poison is a shill for big pharma.

Well in this case, I can't report a person for telling falsehoods. It's not against the forum rules.

PUA_Shill:

Quote:Quote:

Report me if you must, I'm the one who's acting rationally here. And why would I shill a generic medication?

I'm not advocating that anyone take Propecia. Hell, I don't because I'm scared of the sides. But to downright say that everyone should stop taking Propecia right this instant, even if it's working for the vast majority of people, is fear mongering and not conducive to a spirited debate that benefits this community.

Again, no refutations of anything I've said. You assert you're acting rationally when I've destroyed your arguments with both math and legitimate debunking of the scientific studies you linked.

Reported for trolling the thread with nonsense and misleading attacks (insinuating I'm not acting rationally). You're acting rationally despite providing zero arguments? Oh and linking a video to a guy who has called out for sketchy stuff before without ever really working to bring his rep back isn't an argument. Troll harder please.

I think the problem is that most doctors don't properly screen people for drug side effects and neglect to explain possible side effects to patients. So, just go slow with small doses and stop if it has a negative effect.

Quote: (06-01-2015 03:50 PM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  

@ Zelcorpion: you posting a few anecdotes and linking to Mercola, whom some consider a quack, does not help your cause.

Quack arguments are always highly welcome in a medical environment that has been financed by petroleum and chemical companies for a good century now.

Anyone who claims anything that is going counter to their profits will be called a quack.

Even from fucking Wikipedia:

Quote:Quote:

Finasteride is sometimes used in hormone replacement therapy for male-to-female transsexuals in combination with a form of estrogen due to its antiandrogen properties. However, little clinical research of finasteride use for this purpose has been conducted and evidence of efficacy is limited.[6]

Also the history of the drug is quite telling:

Quote:Quote:

In 1974, Julianne Imperato-McGinley of Cornell Medical College in New York attended a conference on birth defects. She reported on a group of intersex children in the Caribbean who appeared sexually ambiguous at birth, and were initially raised as girls, but then grew external male genitalia and other masculine characteristic after onset of puberty. Her research group found these children shared a genetic mutation, causing deficiency of the 5α-reductase enzyme and male hormone dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which was found to have been the etiology behind abnormalities in male sexual development. Upon maturation, these individuals were observed to have smaller prostates which were underdeveloped, and were also observed to lack incidence of male pattern baldness

So - yeah - only a harmless hair pill. More hair, but less of a man - sounds about right.

Again and again you find here guys defending the pharma cartel to the bone as if their livelihood depended on it.

Doesn't matter if it pleases you so much - better agree to disagree and move on. In my opinion most of the current pharmaceutical practices are semi-quackeries. Trauma treatment and surgeries have my full admiration and support - the majority of the rest is fraudulent, corrupt, misguided or outright criminal. Sometimes the criminal activity is just focused on suppressing cheap by far superior alternatives just because it would cost billions in revenue loss. Also - I do not accuse MDs - they can only act upon what they are taught in school.

Not sure what the debate is about.

This medication has well known side effects:

http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/Info...299754.htm

There are a lot of good points on all sides here. I'm coming out here saying that I think the risks may not be worth the benefits, this is from someone who has used finasteride for many years, although now I am not taking it. I haven't really had much side effects from it, some decline in libido however this is confounded by normal aging. No change in muscle mass, no ED, etc. My T is fine.

The data is strong that finasteride will slow your hair loss if you are losing hair. For the record, I have kept my hair. However, there are enough people reporting lasting side effects to warrant concern. This has drifted into the medical field and there are now studies looking at this, what has started to be called "Post Finasteride Syndrome". What percent of people who take finasteride experience this is unknown, but it is not zero. Like everything in medicine, there is no free lunch. There is risk and benefit to any intervention. This is no different.

The caution expressed here is reasonable, but to those who chose to take it, take it well-informed of the risks, the exact frequency of which is unknown at this time.

I took propecia for about 4 months when I was in my late twenties after I began experiencing significant male pattern baldness. I was told at the outset that it would take 6-12 months to notice any results. At month 4 I began having great difficulty achieving an erection. I threw the pills in the trash and never used propecia again.

If you're going bald, start lifting and getting into tip-top shape. It's not that big a deal to most women. Some don't care for bald guys, but most women find Jason Statham sexy. Get a set of clippers and start buzzing your head with a #1 or a #2. Ironically, I get laid way more often and have been treated better by women after I starting shaving my head than I ever did when I had hair.

Quote:Quote:

I took propecia for about 4 months when I was in my late twenties after I began experiencing significant male pattern baldness. I was told at the outset that it would take 6-12 months to notice any results. At month 4 I began having great difficulty achieving an erection. I threw the pills in the trash and never used propecia again.

This is exactly what most men will do. They'll fix their own problems quietly, then go about with their lives. The fact there's a forum with thousands of men experiencing problems tells you far more men have been fucked over than most realize.

Screw these sketchy medications with brutal side effects. You guys know how affordable hair transplants are in SEA?!

Samseau,
Aren't you a lawyer?
If so, maybe you can represent some of these guys, and either way, sign onto the class action yourself.

Questions persist about sexual effects of baldness drug

http://news.yahoo.com/questions-persist-...01862.html

"People who take or prescribe the drug assume it's safe, but there is insufficient information to make that judgment," said lead study author Steven Belknap, research assistant professor of dermatology and general internal medicine at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine.

"Our findings raise several questions," Belknap said.

"Why do the published reports of these 34 clinical trials not provide adequate information about the severity and frequency of sexual toxicity? Was this information obtained but then not included in published articles? Or, were these clinical trials performed in a way that simply didn't capture this essential information? And most importantly, is the risk to benefit ratio of finasteride acceptable?"