[WesternCancer]

try burning more calories in other ways. ie. sports like hockey, boxing or soccer. I personally am looking into boxing gyms in my town. It seems better than the normal "fuck i have to run for an hour" type of cardio, youre learning/practicing something useful too.

[Hooligan Harry]

(01-18-2012 04:44 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(01-18-2012 03:59 PM)kosko Wrote:  

You don't need cardio to burn weight. This is a myth. You can burn yourself into a lean stick by changing diet and being at a normal to above normal rate of energy.

Other than a few genetic freaks, everyone who has leaned out has done cardio.

It's not an opinion. It's an empirical truth borne out by tens of thousands of bodybuilders and fitness people.

When a guy can see his ribs but has love handles, he is skinny fat. I dont know how he is training, but the dude needs to put some muscle on pronto, NOT LOSE WEIGHT.

Cardio to lose weight is a given. Cardio when you can see ribs? Are you sure you want to be sending this guy on marathons?

Too many calories, too many carbs, too many calories early in the day, too much fat and carbs together, insufficient protein post training, his insulin is fucked. 3 pieces of fruit and a bowl of oats is going to be pushing 70g of carbs in one sitting, if not more, and he eats that as his first meal of the day?

Im willing to bet training is fucked too. Chad, post your training routine bro, lets see what weight work you are doing. You are doing something wrong if you are not seeing results. You are also doing something very wrong if you have been hitting the weights but you are seeing ribs and you have belly fat and love handles.

[Donald Duck]

HH, not to hijack the thread, but I eat 20 grams of oatmeal with 125ml of milk each morning for my workout energy. In total that's about 23 carbs alone. I don't eat a full serving. Is that good?

[alecks]

honestly,whats the problem here? people are bashing out broscience left right and centre

HH is right,the majority of people who are endomorphic can handle less carbs,their insulin resistance is holding them back.
on the other hand you have people that are very skinny who can eat what they want and not gain an ounce of fat (gentic metabolism/huge insulin sensitivity).

MYTH: you need cardio to lose weight.no you dont.IT DEFINETELY WORKS AND HELPS but it is not needed.

listen the calories in vs calories out equation had been debunked a lot of times,its not as simple as that

obviously you need less calories than what you take in to burn fat,but what happens then....OH NO my fat loss has stopped? why? metabolic slowdown.

PEOPLE WANT TO LOSE FAT NOW!!!! so they diet so fast the body goes into shock (starvation mode) and starts to hold onto fat instead of burning it! how to combat that?

TRICK THE BODY INTO THINKING IT HAS MORE CALORIES = METABOLISM BOOSTED

leptin and insulin levels regulate to where they were previously,then fat is continually burned (if low enough carbs are in check)

carbohydrate restriction whilst calories are low(er) = fat burned. i know a lot about this stuff so ask away

[Anon-A-Moose]

Diuretics might help get rid of fluid. It could be loose skin, but if it is you'll probably have stretch marks or it'll feel "loose". My friend swears by the cream they give pregnant chicks for their stretch marks (I've never used it). I have the same problem with my stomach.

[kosko]

Quality of calories is key also. Like the above poster said its about fooling your body into shedding fat while still preserving and growing muscle. This is probably why women always flop on diets, they stress them selves with empty calories, do little to no strength training and rely to heavily on redundant cardio like an elliptical.

Chads case can be a RooshForum case study. He has committed himself to a healthy lifestyle but it might be one little thing throwing his goals off. The shit is bloody interesting so hopefully through the mess of broscience dude can pin point his issue.

[kbell]

How low of carbs are you talking about alecks?

[Chad Daring]

This turned into an interesting thread, thanks again to everyone who put in some time to hunt down links and make thought out posts.

I lift 3 days a week currently, and I want to add at least one more day in the gym that'll be solely for a low impact mid intensity "trekking" type of cardio. My plan is to do something along the lines of a 10-15 degree uphill power walk at a moderate to high pace, not running, but definitely at a pace that you cant waiver while doing or you'll be on your ass.

[Chad Daring]

(01-18-2012 10:11 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

When a guy can see his ribs but has love handles, he is skinny fat. I dont know how he is training, but the dude needs to put some muscle on pronto, NOT LOSE WEIGHT.

Cardio to lose weight is a given. Cardio when you can see ribs? Are you sure you want to be sending this guy on marathons?

Too many calories, too many carbs, too many calories early in the day, too much fat and carbs together, insufficient protein post training, his insulin is fucked. 3 pieces of fruit and a bowl of oats is going to be pushing 70g of carbs in one sitting, if not more, and he eats that as his first meal of the day?

Im willing to bet training is fucked too. Chad, post your training routine bro, lets see what weight work you are doing. You are doing something wrong if you are not seeing results. You are also doing something very wrong if you have been hitting the weights but you are seeing ribs and you have belly fat and love handles.

I'd prefer you dont make brash assumptions. I'm deadlifting 340 pounds at the moment, not record breaking but certainly not a small amount. No matter what I have at least some idea of what I'm doing


My lifting regiment consists mostly of compound lifts and body weight exercises. Presses, both flat and inclined, dead lifts, chin-ups, pull-ups, dips, squats, and rows. There's a handful of isolation stuff in there, mostly arms and shoulders just to try to pretty those areas up because they're the vanity muscles.

I do all at heavy weight, reverse pyramid style with my first set being the heaviest and usually for 2-4 reps, second set a bit lighter for 4-6 reps, and the final set being the lightest for 4-8 reps.

I've got plenty of muscle on my frame, my abs, while covered by this pesky layer of fat, are like a cinder block wall. The reason I specifically started this thread is despite all that I know and am doing I still cant get rid of this last bastion of flab.

Low carb didn't do it. Paleo didnt do it. Lifting hasn't done it. At one point I was edging on a six pack while slimming down and STILL had love handles.

[YoungGunner]

(01-19-2012 03:35 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

Low carb didn't do it. Paleo didnt do it. Lifting hasn't done it. At one point I was edging on a six pack while slimming down and STILL had love handles.

For how long did you try each method?

[Chad Daring]

(01-19-2012 03:46 PM)YoungGunner Wrote:  

(01-19-2012 03:35 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

Low carb didn't do it. Paleo didnt do it. Lifting hasn't done it. At one point I was edging on a six pack while slimming down and STILL had love handles.

For how long did you try each method?

I've been low carb for over a year now, aside for the "controlled" carbs I started eating on my workout days about a month ago, about 5-6 months of that year I've been paleo and eating more fruit and veggies, but still no rice, bread, sugar, ect.

I've been lifting seriously for about 5 months, but was lifting "unseriously" for about 3 months before that.



Edit:

How much should an active job play into what you eat calorie and macro nutrient wise? I'm on my feet 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and my job involves a decent amount of heavy lifting (25-40 pounds multiple times a day) Its not like I'm doing back breaking work at a construction site but vs the average Joe desk job its definitely more work then "normal"

[Menace]

Not to derail, but can someone explain to me how it is that prisoners, who definitely have no control over their diet, develop their amazing bodies? Is it because we're looking at a self-selecting sample of high-T individuals (part of the reason they're in prison) and thus they are naturally (i.e. due to genetics) able to put on muscle mass easily?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKnKA-ppfE8 as an example.

[Chad Daring]

(01-19-2012 04:35 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Not to derail, but can someone explain to me how it is that prisoners, who definitely have no control over their diet, develop their amazing bodies? Is it because we're looking at a self-selecting sample of high-T individuals (part of the reason they're in prison) and thus they are naturally (i.e. due to genetics) able to put on muscle mass easily?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKnKA-ppfE8 as an example.

Nothing better to do then workout. There's also that whole "be swole or get sodomized" thing

[YoungGunner]

(01-19-2012 03:50 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

(01-19-2012 03:46 PM)YoungGunner Wrote:  

(01-19-2012 03:35 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

Low carb didn't do it. Paleo didnt do it. Lifting hasn't done it. At one point I was edging on a six pack while slimming down and STILL had love handles.

For how long did you try each method?

I've been low carb for over a year now, aside for the "controlled" carbs I started eating on my workout days about a month ago, about 5-6 months of that year I've been paleo and eating more fruit and veggies, but still no rice, bread, sugar, ect.

I've been lifting seriously for about 5 months, but was lifting "unseriously" for about 3 months before that.



Edit:

How much should an active job play into what you eat calorie and macro nutrient wise? I'm on my feet 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and my job involves a decent amount of heavy lifting (25-40 pounds multiple times a day) Its not like I'm doing back breaking work at a construction site but vs the average Joe desk job its definitely more work then "normal"

I'm not sure about an active job, but sounds like you satisfy the requirements for most primal/paleo recommendations of daily moderate exercise.

Anyway, it sounds to me like it might just me subcutaneous water surrounding your obliques. If your lifting includes a lot of core work you can develop big obliques that make to look like you have love handles, though the muscles are pretty useful and I always train them.

[Menace]

(01-19-2012 04:39 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

(01-19-2012 04:35 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Not to derail, but can someone explain to me how it is that prisoners, who definitely have no control over their diet, develop their amazing bodies? Is it because we're looking at a self-selecting sample of high-T individuals (part of the reason they're in prison) and thus they are naturally (i.e. due to genetics) able to put on muscle mass easily?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKnKA-ppfE8 as an example.

Nothing better to do then workout. There's also that whole "be swole or get sodomized" thing

Well that's kind of my point. How important can getting protein/carb/fat ratios just right be when these guys are eating cafeteria swill and getting jacked up.

[ElJefe]

(01-19-2012 04:39 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

(01-19-2012 04:35 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Not to derail, but can someone explain to me how it is that prisoners, who definitely have no control over their diet, develop their amazing bodies? Is it because we're looking at a self-selecting sample of high-T individuals (part of the reason they're in prison) and thus they are naturally (i.e. due to genetics) able to put on muscle mass easily?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKnKA-ppfE8 as an example.

Nothing better to do then workout. There's also that whole "be swole or get sodomized" thing

Chad, I haven't read the rest of your thread - forgive me if something has already been covered.

Now, I know body-builders in the last few weeks before their competition walk. That's right. They walk at a brisk pace at 50-60% (MAX) of their the aerobic whatever-you-call-it-I-forgot-the-name for 20-40 minutes. I think it's maximum heart-rate. They call it the "fat-burning zone" or something else dumb. Most aerobic exercise is at 70-80%.

The reason is that at this level your body uses fat as its primary fuel source, as opposed to glucogen stores. I imagine they do this to do what you want to do now.

Source: I remember reading this somewhere, have not tried it myself. I don't give a shit about how fat I look, bitches be trippin' anyhow...

BTW: Is 340 your 1RM?? And post a pic of your back/abs so we can see for ourselves

[MikeCF]

(01-19-2012 05:19 PM)Menace Wrote:  

(01-19-2012 04:39 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

(01-19-2012 04:35 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Not to derail, but can someone explain to me how it is that prisoners, who definitely have no control over their diet, develop their amazing bodies? Is it because we're looking at a self-selecting sample of high-T individuals (part of the reason they're in prison) and thus they are naturally (i.e. due to genetics) able to put on muscle mass easily?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKnKA-ppfE8 as an example.

Nothing better to do then workout. There's also that whole "be swole or get sodomized" thing

Well that's kind of my point. How important can getting protein/carb/fat ratios just right be when these guys are eating cafeteria swill and getting jacked up.

Criminals, especially violent criminals, have higher testosterone. Many are black, and blacks have superior muscle building genetics. They are going to respond better to strength training than your average white guy.

[Sammy]

Also, drugs are big business in prison. That includes steroids. (Note: I've never been to jail, this is just something I've been told/read about. Take with salt.)

[alecks]

those dudes in prison have been training for years.and yes steroids are big in prisons.the diets in prison are borderline shit but they grow anyway which is nuts,probably just juicing and training for so many years gives them the size

as for low carbs,it does work.people dont realise that you dont need much carbs when your sitting on your ass,your better off doing it like this

lets say your on a 3 day split
monday,wed,friday

base your carbs around workouts is best,as you minimalise insulin spikes before your pre workout meal and after your shake (if you do have one....ie have like 50g whey with 50g carbs.)

sample
meal 1: pro + fat
meal 2: pro + fat
meal 3: pro+ carb
post workout: pro+ carb
meal 4: pro+ fat.
easy peasy.


then on non workout days replace carbs with fats,as your insulin will be lower,leading to less fat storage.of course i think a carb up is needed if your feeling depleted (low glycogen,strength will be lower,cant get a pump etc...its physiology at its finest)

when glucose (any carb) is not going towards fat cells,its going towards muscle or liver.usually liver first.so think of your stores as tanks.you have muscle stores,liver stores,and fat stores (OH NO!!).if you have filled up your liver and muscle cells with glycogen from carbs....guess where the excess is going to go???.....you got it,FAT STORES.thats why with high carb diets,even if said person is in a caloric deficit,it is very hard to burn fat,it will start to "burn" calories from glycogen first,then fat if it needs to.insulin is a storage hormone,when very little of it is produced,the body is in a good state.when blood sugar rises too much,insulin is produced to decrease it,and ends up shovelling it all into fat stores (i forget the name of it).glucagon is the opposite of insulin,protein produces more glucagon,kind of negating the efects of insulin.also protein has a higher (TEF) thermic effect than carbs or fats = higher metabolism

a lot of people do HIIT for cardio,not much calories are burned at that moment but it sends your metabolism into overdrive after (EPOC effect),honestly its very intense.its not called high intensity for nothing. the reason why it burns more fat than regular LISS cardio is because sprinting is so intense,more mitochondria (an organelle) in the cell, are made.these are like little fat burning pockets in your cells.if you have more,you burn more fat.thats why weight training causes growth of mitochondria = more muscle you have = more fat burned

LISS cardio (low intensity steady state cardio).it does burn fat yes i agree,but after a while,whilst doing weeks of dieting your body will get used to that excercise and it will slow down the rate of calories burned when you do that type of cardio,thats why its good to do some HIIT to take the boredom out of it etc.

yes cardio like walking is what i consider steady state (30-45mins tops for me) at any one session.best done on an empty stomach and therefore you have fasted since the night before,insulin levels are at their lowest = fat burned for energy.bcaas can be taken to minimize muscle loss too,but i wouldnt say its essential.maybe just drink some green tea before hand to ramp up the metabolism a bit.also dont stop lifting heavy when your dieting,biggest mistake that noobs make.

quick note: add cinnamon to your carbs because its been shown to decrease insulin levels and its tasty,also chromium.get enough fibre in too as this blunts insulin = less produced = less likely to go into fat stores

[The_CEO]

(01-18-2012 10:11 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

(01-18-2012 04:44 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(01-18-2012 03:59 PM)kosko Wrote:  

You don't need cardio to burn weight. This is a myth. You can burn yourself into a lean stick by changing diet and being at a normal to above normal rate of energy.

Other than a few genetic freaks, everyone who has leaned out has done cardio.

It's not an opinion. It's an empirical truth borne out by tens of thousands of bodybuilders and fitness people.

When a guy can see his ribs but has love handles, he is skinny fat. I dont know how he is training, but the dude needs to put some muscle on pronto, NOT LOSE WEIGHT.

Cardio to lose weight is a given. Cardio when you can see ribs? Are you sure you want to be sending this guy on marathons?

Too many calories, too many carbs, too many calories early in the day, too much fat and carbs together, insufficient protein post training, his insulin is fucked. 3 pieces of fruit and a bowl of oats is going to be pushing 70g of carbs in one sitting, if not more, and he eats that as his first meal of the day?

Im willing to bet training is fucked too. Chad, post your training routine bro, lets see what weight work you are doing. You are doing something wrong if you are not seeing results. You are also doing something very wrong if you have been hitting the weights but you are seeing ribs and you have belly fat and love handles.

H.H., are there books or literature you recommend with respect to how to configure a correct diet (i.e. the right amount of carbs vs. protein and what to eat when, etc)?? Also how all of this effects insulin levels?

Maybe managing that (Insulin levels) is key?

it's interesting too because, I think, diabetics aren't supposed to exceed 70g of carbs per meal and also are supposed to balance it with protein. Maybe that's also good for the rest of us?

[Hooligan Harry]

(01-19-2012 05:13 AM)Donald Duck Wrote:  

HH, not to hijack the thread, but I eat 20 grams of oatmeal with 125ml of milk each morning for my workout energy. In total that's about 23 carbs alone. I don't eat a full serving. Is that good?

Carbs are not the enemy bud and Im not trying to give them a bad rap. There is nothing wrong with what you are eating at all.

Processed foods are not good for you, but I dont buy into this crap that whole grains and fruit are somehow bad for people. I think whats important to establish is what your goals are, along with learning to understand your own body. Everyone is different.

My suggestions for Chad are based only on his statements that he has lost a ton of weight to the point where he is seeing ribs, but still has love handles and belly fat. My suggestions were based on the fact that I think his insulin is all over the show and he is consuming too much fat for a carb rich diet like that. Skinny fat is not a good place to be health wise.

What are your goals at the moment? Are you trying to lose weight? Gain weight? Maintain weight for sports? Just improve fitness?

[Hooligan Harry]

(01-19-2012 06:54 PM)The_CEO Wrote:  

H.H., are there books or literature you recommend with respect to how to configure a correct diet (i.e. the right amount of carbs vs. protein and what to eat when, etc)?? Also how all of this effects insulin levels?

Maybe managing that (Insulin levels) is key?

it's interesting too because, I think, diabetics aren't supposed to exceed 70g of carbs per meal and also are supposed to balance it with protein. Maybe that's also good for the rest of us?

There are tons, but the ones I have always found best are:

Tom Venuto's stuff is brilliant and I believe his earlier works in particular a must read for anyone. He writes in a very easy to understand way and he really breaks down the basics of nutrition well. When it comes to building balanced diets, I have yet to find someone better than him. He is very focused on the principles of calories in vs calories out, but also quality nutrition and calories. So he is an excellent place to start things off.

From there, you can start looking at more advanced types of nutrition. Leangains is a fantastic resource which explains the benefits of fasting. Since I have started following this I have found it liberating. Going from the 6 meals a day to 2 and seeing results really has done me so many favours.

Combining those two resources, that being a balanced diet and meal frequency into something that you can stick with would be close to bulletproof.

As for learning how to control insulin levels, there is a ton of stuff that can be read. You need to try and take the best of everything really because there is no doubt a lot of the advice is coming from fad diets.

One of the best "commercial" diets I have seen is the South Beach diet which has helped a lot of my family and friends. I buy the book and give it away to people. Its easy to follow and apply and it does wonders in getting people back on the rails.

For advanced nutrition, it always gets a bit more difficult because normally you should only be looking at this once you understand the basics. When it comes to insulin, look for information on ketogenic diets and paleo diets. While not all of it can be used, it will help you understand how to manipulate and use insulin in your body and how your body uses insulin.

These days, I feel much better on a high fat, lowish carb diet. I rarely eat more than 100g of carbs a day, with the vast majority of my calories coming from fat and protein

[Hooligan Harry]

(01-19-2012 03:35 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

(01-18-2012 10:11 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

When a guy can see his ribs but has love handles, he is skinny fat. I dont know how he is training, but the dude needs to put some muscle on pronto, NOT LOSE WEIGHT.

Cardio to lose weight is a given. Cardio when you can see ribs? Are you sure you want to be sending this guy on marathons?

Too many calories, too many carbs, too many calories early in the day, too much fat and carbs together, insufficient protein post training, his insulin is fucked. 3 pieces of fruit and a bowl of oats is going to be pushing 70g of carbs in one sitting, if not more, and he eats that as his first meal of the day?

Im willing to bet training is fucked too. Chad, post your training routine bro, lets see what weight work you are doing. You are doing something wrong if you are not seeing results. You are also doing something very wrong if you have been hitting the weights but you are seeing ribs and you have belly fat and love handles.

I'd prefer you dont make brash assumptions. I'm deadlifting 340 pounds at the moment, not record breaking but certainly not a small amount. No matter what I have at least some idea of what I'm doing


My lifting regiment consists mostly of compound lifts and body weight exercises. Presses, both flat and inclined, dead lifts, chin-ups, pull-ups, dips, squats, and rows. There's a handful of isolation stuff in there, mostly arms and shoulders just to try to pretty those areas up because they're the vanity muscles.

I do all at heavy weight, reverse pyramid style with my first set being the heaviest and usually for 2-4 reps, second set a bit lighter for 4-6 reps, and the final set being the lightest for 4-8 reps.

I've got plenty of muscle on my frame, my abs, while covered by this pesky layer of fat, are like a cinder block wall. The reason I specifically started this thread is despite all that I know and am doing I still cant get rid of this last bastion of flab.

Low carb didn't do it. Paleo didnt do it. Lifting hasn't done it. At one point I was edging on a six pack while slimming down and STILL had love handles.

Where the hell are the ribs you are talking about? Lol.

Then MikeCF is 100% right. Drop the calories and up the cardio, but you need to cut back on the early morning carbs and you have to burn more calories. You say you have a physical job, so maybe just the cardio being added will do if you are eating quite clean.

I did just look at that blog post. Dude good work on the weight loss, that is awesome. But you are starting to reach the stage now where you will lose muscle and fat. As your BF% drops it gets harder to hold onto muscle. You need to read up as much as you can on this type of dieting, and the best place to be looking is at how pro bodybuilders cut for competitions. While its all extreme, it will give you an idea of what they do to preserve muscle while they cut fat.

Other suggestions

- Go to slightly higher rep ranges. 2-4 is too low, get it between 6-8.
- Cardio in the morning, weights in the evening. Dont cut back on weight training
- If you are going to eat carbs, you have to cut back on fat. And if you cut back on carbs, you need to eat more fat. You cant have both if you want to see quick results.

I would suggest packing on more muscle to be honest. Not much, another 3-4kgs or so. After that worry about dropping more fat. You have achieved a lot in a short period of time. The results wont come as fast anymore, but dont let it get you down.

[The_CEO]

(01-19-2012 11:06 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

(01-19-2012 06:54 PM)The_CEO Wrote:  

H.H., are there books or literature you recommend with respect to how to configure a correct diet (i.e. the right amount of carbs vs. protein and what to eat when, etc)?? Also how all of this effects insulin levels?

Maybe managing that (Insulin levels) is key?

it's interesting too because, I think, diabetics aren't supposed to exceed 70g of carbs per meal and also are supposed to balance it with protein. Maybe that's also good for the rest of us?

There are tons, but the ones I have always found best are:

Tom Venuto's stuff is brilliant and I believe his earlier works in particular a must read for anyone. He writes in a very easy to understand way and he really breaks down the basics of nutrition well. When it comes to building balanced diets, I have yet to find someone better than him. He is very focused on the principles of calories in vs calories out, but also quality nutrition and calories. So he is an excellent place to start things off.

From there, you can start looking at more advanced types of nutrition. Leangains is a fantastic resource which explains the benefits of fasting. Since I have started following this I have found it liberating. Going from the 6 meals a day to 2 and seeing results really has done me so many favours.

Combining those two resources, that being a balanced diet and meal frequency into something that you can stick with would be close to bulletproof.

As for learning how to control insulin levels, there is a ton of stuff that can be read. You need to try and take the best of everything really because there is no doubt a lot of the advice is coming from fad diets.

One of the best "commercial" diets I have seen is the South Beach diet which has helped a lot of my family and friends. I buy the book and give it away to people. Its easy to follow and apply and it does wonders in getting people back on the rails.

For advanced nutrition, it always gets a bit more difficult because normally you should only be looking at this once you understand the basics. When it comes to insulin, look for information on ketogenic diets and paleo diets. While not all of it can be used, it will help you understand how to manipulate and use insulin in your body and how your body uses insulin.

These days, I feel much better on a high fat, lowish carb diet. I rarely eat more than 100g of carbs a day, with the vast majority of my calories coming from fat and protein

Harry, thanks! I'll check out the links as well as So. Beach diet.
I reviewed my diet b/c of this thread, and in the morning i had been eating things like dried fruit (I already stopped) among other things which must be jacking insulin like crazy. I looked at some Paleo diet links as well, and saw some good ideas there (hopefully), like eating some fish or black beans in the morning along with egg whites.

As for Chad Daring -- good luck and if you don't achieve the results the old fashioned way, well there's a reason why swimsuit models are "friends" with plastic surgeons on Facebook!

[MikeCF]

(01-19-2012 11:28 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

I would suggest packing on more muscle to be honest. Not much, another 3-4kgs or so. After that worry about dropping more fat. You have achieved a lot in a short period of time. The results wont come as fast anymore, but dont let it get you down.

This is good advice, Chad.

Part of having a good body is having a substantial drop from your shoulder girdle and back area to your waist.

Build up your torso.

Stop doing low reps, as HH suggests.

My personal opinion is that Dogg Crapp training is the best program to put on muscle. Do Dogg Crapp for 1-2 years.