[Australia Sucks]

I know a girl who has a masters degree (5 years to complete) that is specialized in early childhood teaching and is a graduate primary school teacher in Sydney. Her starting graduate salary is only around $62,000 AUD (pre-tax). For a fucking masters degree!!

Here is a job for accounting which shows how competitive the job market in Australia is. The job will pay a maximum of $100,000 Australian dollars (pre-tax) and the job wants someone fluent in English and French and be willing to travel overseas and have a degree in accounting or similar + a CPA and at least 4 years accounting experience. Somebody who meets the requirements of degree + CPA + at least 4 years experience is likely to be at least 27, most likely older.

https://www.seek.com.au/job/34072039?typ...d3-3426743

That is one of the better paying jobs due to the French fluency and travel requirements. You can do a job search and see plenty of accounting jobs demand 4+ years of accounting experience plus a degree and CPA and only pay between $70,000 to $90,000 Australian dollars per year.

For example here is a job demanding a CPA/Chartered Accountant qualification and 4+ years experience and the pay is only $70,000 - $90,000 and this is in Sydney!!
https://www.seek.com.au/job/34059398?typ...5c-4591530

Lets say a 3 year degree like business/commerce/accounting in a prestigious university including course fees and textbooks, government loan interest, etc will cost you at least $35,000 AUD. The CPA course + textbooks + resitting some exams (more than half fail some CPA exams) + professional registration fees, etc will likely set you back a total of $10,000 AUD. Add that to the $35,000 degree that is a $45,000 difference. Add that to the foregone earnings (lets say for example $90,000 after-tax for the three year period) while studying at university and that is a huge hurdle ($135,000) to catch up.

If you look at the above job (link 2 paragraphs up) the maximum pay is $90,000 AUD before tax. Now look at someone who just finished high school and has maybe 5-10 years experience working dead end jobs. Lets say he earns $60,000 AUD (let us assume he hit a pay ceiling in his dead end job). Due to the progressive tax system the difference between $90,000 before tax and $60,000 before tax is only about $16,000 AUD after tax. You can see how hard it is for the average person that studied accounting to earn a return on their qualifications within a reasonable time period. A similar scenario applies to people who studied degrees like economics, education, social work, human resources, foreign policy, media/journalism, international studies, etc

[Sonoma]

I'm on mobile so it's hard to quote, but in the hypothetical scenario you created, you have Person A making 55,000 a year and saving 17000 of it, and person B with no diploma earning 60,000 and saving 30,000 of it. With that kind of deviation it's more an example of how savings can compound, and not really an examination of whether college is worth it.

[BelyyTigr]

(08-04-2017 07:41 AM)Sonoma Wrote:  

Most top Ivy League schools offer near zero tuition if you're low-income (Stanford offers free tuition if your income is lower than the median American income).

As far as a time commitment, it's roughly 15 hours a week x 36 weeks x 4 years = ~2000 hours, or a full year of lost wages, which isn't really that much. Tuition will run about 20,000 total. Nurses can start at 60/hr, or 120,000 a year, which makes the tuition chump change and the full year of lost wages pretty minimal too.

I was mentioning nursing as supposedly one of the "best options" for grads. But there's a few problems with that.
Firstly, its not that great. In England, many young nurses are actually leaving the profession 2 or 3 years post graduation!
Also, its not a job you'll find many red pill, heterosexual males yearning to join. OK, I'm not saying "all nurses are gay", but there certainly are some! And if I had boys, I'd feel a bit gutted if it was the career they chose. Finally, they're having to compete with Fillipinos, Poles, Indians, all first generation immigrants, happy to work in terrible conditions with low pay, because the money goes so far when they go back home.

Another problem with Ivy League is that few students qualify as truly low income. Most have parents with modest earnings who can't help much financially. So the kids are crippled with debts. Same with other top level colleges. Go to a cheaper college and then you'll find employers will look down their nose at your degree. In other words "fucked if you do, fucked if you don't"!

15 hours a week is contact time with staff. Students are expected to do 35 to 40 hrs a week study in total, PLUS unpaid internships, plus Summer project work. In the US they do a 3 or 4 year bachelors, then a graduate degree of 2 or 3 years.
Very expensive, huge loss of earnings.

I'm not sure where the nursing degree costs you refer to are actually for. Canada? You're looking far more than that in other places. But considerably lower income at the end of it. Are you sure on the starting income, out of interest? In England, a year's tuition is probably 40% of the starting annual salary. ... of a nurse You're suggesting its a fraction of that.

Even your nursing example doesn't look great. Now imagine someone who's done 4 years studying law and ends up working in a call centre for chump change. For many, many grads, the world of work has become an utter nightmare. And it will only get worse.

British kids can expect to clock up £35k debts at uni. And a first job at half the rate their classmates who avoided college and went into building, car maintance and the like are earning at the same age.

If these people were dummies and halfwits, I'd say "fair enough". But they're actually amongst the smartest in the country, the ones a country's future should be resting on. I've seen Oxbridge grads, top law grads, top science grads and the like, all in shitty pay call centre jobs alongside unskilled absolute morons. 2, 3 even FIVE years after graduation!

[Australia Sucks]

Sonoma you did not read the scenario in detail.

Its because to make it equal I assumed that while the college graduate lived with their parents while studying and had low living expenses for that period (hence could survive just working casual), the lowly worker also lived with their parents and had low living expenses (hence they could save half their income). You generally cannot save any money (even if living with parents) by working a few hours here and there as a casual (typical university student). That is just your spending money.

Then when the graduate started working full time they moved out of home and at the same time the unskilled worker moved out of home. You can see when the unskilled worker moves out of home their savings rate drops. I tried to make it an apples to apples comparison. I think saving half your pre-tax salary is a reasonable goal if you are living rent free with your parents.

You know how much a typical teacher with a bachelor's degree and 5 years teaching experience makes in Sydney? $75,000 AUD pre-tax if they are lucky. Compare that to an unskilled person with 8 years experience (3 years in place of university plus another 5 years) who might make say $60,000 to $65,000 pre-tax. Then deduct the extra tax (progressive tax system) and the difference is only between $6500 and $10,000 per year after tax. When you consider the cost of studying and the foregone earnings and investment returns its probably not worth it. The only reason to do it is for the job security and having a cushy job.

[Sonoma]

I guess where I live there's very few people without degrees making that type of money. Construction is really the only non-skilled work I know that pays decent, and even still, most people start making junk pay doing that

[zoom]

In general I believe college is a scam, but a lot of it depends on your major, school, and grant money.

[Australia Sucks]

Sonoma, maybe in Canada that is the case, but for example in Australia in retail you got certain large companies paying experienced workers (say 3-5 years relevant retail experience) a base salary (they get paid hourly but its a salary equivalent measurement for full timers) of $50,000 AUD pre-tax plus bonuses + penalty rates + overtime (these guys get paid hourly unlike salaried professionals). When you add in the penalty rates, overtime and bonuses (and sometimes free company shares and gift vouchers on top) often its around $60,000 AUD.

For example somebody who works a little bit in a call centre and then gets a job in a debt collection call centre and then works his way up to team leader (all doable within 5 years) would probably get around a $55,000 AUD base salary plus commission and bonuses which ends up being $60,000 to $65,000 AUD (pre-tax)

A lot of bank tellers with no qualifications get a base salary of around $50,000 to $55,000 AUD (pre-tax) plus bonuses and sometimes free company shares on top. So after a few years if they become a senior team member or specialized team member (e.g. home loan specialist) with bonuses and company shares they can easily make $60,000 AUD pre-tax.

For example somebody that does a few short and cheap certificate courses to become a security guard/bouncer if they get a few years of experience by the time they get penalty rates, over-time etc could easily be earning pre-tax $60,000 to $65,000 AUD. A traffic controller who gets a few cheap and short certifications and works a few hours and becomes a entry level traffic control supervisor/foreman again by the time you add in overtime and penalty rates could easily be earning at least $60,000 to $65,000 AUD. Salaried guys (as opposed to unskilled guys) in Australia usually do unpaid overtime.

In Australia a lot of truck drivers regularly work 50-70 hour weeks (lots of overtime and penalty rates) and often earn $65,000 AUD to $85,000 pre tax a year. Experienced full time Forklift drivers working in large Warehouses often make pre-tax $60,000 AUD plus per year due to the penalty rates and overtime, etc.

Basically in Australia many (but certainly not all) unskilled jobs can earn a semi-decent salary ($55,000 to $65,000 AUD pre-tax) if you specialize in one thing and have 3-5 years experience doing it. After that though your pay as an uskilled guy has usually hit its ceiling and its far too competitive and difficult for most people to get a promotion.

[Australia Sucks]

Sonoma I remember one time around 2 years ago I was talking to a Canadian backpacker girl (she was around a 7/10) in Australia. She told me back home in Canada she had a job at a really busy bar as a waitress/bartender (helped with bar-tending when it was short staffed) and got paid $9 Canadian per hour. She worked around 30 hours per week and made $1000 Canadian cash tips (according to her) on top of her base pay. Of course she no doubt avoided taxes on the cash tips. So if she was telling the truth (I am not sure) her after tax pay was far bigger than most university graduates!

[Atomic]

College is a complete and utter scam.

Heres my list of gripes, in no particular order:

1. Lack of true requirement planing
- College guidance counselors/advisers either don't know about your need or they don't care about them. They will simply look at your degree requirements and try to plug them into a schedule so you check all the boxes. A monkey could do that. Rarely do they know that course X is a lot easier if you do course Y first, and course Z is kind of a joke so take that alongside a challenging course.
- They also do not know of alternate methods to complete certain requirements. I'll talk about this soon.

2. General Education
- Absolute horseshit. In the USA if you are a freshmen in college you are generally no younger than 18 years old. At that point you have had 12+ years of schooling. That's enough general education. There is absolutely no need for a engineering student to have to get 4 credits in History, 4 credits in Foreign Language, etc.
- "But but but...well rounded students have a solid foundation and."...stop. It's bullshit. The only people who don't think it's bullshit are the liberal arts professors whose jobs require the scam of general education requirements. We can also go into the blatant indoctrination that goes on in same of the classes...but I'm good with stopping at "It's bullshit. End of discussion".

3. Attendance Policies
- If I pay $2k for a class, why in the hell would I be required to miss "no more than 2 classes, and no more than 2 subsequent classes" or some other asinine requirement.

4. Text Book requirements.
- This really gets me worked up. I have seen some syllabi that require over $200 just for the books, and top of the jacked up tuition costs. One time I even had a professor require a 50 page "textbook" that was $80 dollars and contained about 10 pages worth of material (the rest was blank pages you were to do exercises in). Guess who the author of that textbook was? Yep, that damn professor herself.
- Requiring "new edition" textbooks. Are you fucking kidding me? I can't buy the $50 17th edition Calculus textbook because they require, and select all assignments, from the 18th edition? Calculus hasn't changed in how many hundreds of years? Fuck out here with new edition bullshit.
- Combine that with open source textbooks and the internet in general, there should be no mandatory textbooks.

5. Shitty professors, or shitty TAs, that can fuck your GPA.
- Bad professors can fuck you over. I once had a professor whose exam questions were so open to interpretation that there could be three or four plausible answers. Which one is it, you get to choose, he gets to grade.
- Ive been tested on material before it was even taught in class. And been tested on the following material (which built on the first test) before I got the first test back. Do shitty on the first test? Guess what, you're doing shitting on the second test because you don't even know what you did wrong on the first one.

6. Lack of "test-out" options.
- In my college education, there were FOUR courses I took that I could not have tested out of immediately (or with a few weeks of review). Four out of (4 per semester * 2 semesters * 4 years = 32) 32 classes.
- I even become an impromptu TA and taught a class because I knew more about the specific material than the professor. Instead of the homework the other students got, I wrote tutorials. I even wrote one of the tests!

7. Outdated material.
- Professors slowly lose touch with the common standards of "the industry". It isn't uncommon to learn material that is 5-10+ years outdated.

Blah blah, I could go on for hours. But I'm not a fan of people who bitch and don't offer a solution so here we go:

My ideas are for any universities that receive government aid or benefit from public services (local police/EMS).

1. All universities will make their libraries accessible to the public. All syllabi for all courses will be posted and available in those libraries (and at the nearest public library). All textbooks listed as required on all syllabi will be available in those libraries in the amount of (class size)/15.

2. All universities will offer either a test-out exam or an end-of-course project. These will be priced at a market-price commensurate with the grading requirements needed to evaluate it. For example: you take a Calc 1 final exam and pay: $100 ($60 for one hour of grading, $40 admin fees). Pass the test and you get credit for the class based on your grade on the final exam. Infinite re-tests are allowed, test fees are non-refundable.

3. Abolition of attendance requirements.

4. Abolition of general education requirements.

That would be enough of a shake up for the education industry.

[Cr33pin]

[sonoran_]

All I can say is that if you have someone close to you who is in Grade 11/12, provide them with guidance.

Average people give the worst advice and only project what they wanted for themselves on you.

Example: My dad, when talking to people would basically say that a doctor is the best career to have. Engineering sucks, lawyer sucks, everything else sucks, become a doctor. Then on the other hand he would talk about how his trades friends or non doctor friends made 6 figures.

He never directly told me this, but his projections led me down the path to get a Biology degree ( which is usually the the degree people use to apply to med).

After 1 year I knew I didnt want anything to do with Med/ Dent/ Pharm, yet I completed the degree half heartedly.

Now almost 2 years after graduating I'm in only a slightly better situation financially, then I was before.

Average people give average and most of the time, shitty advice.

[Atomic]

(08-06-2017 05:01 PM)sonoran_ Wrote:  

All I can say is that if you have someone close to you who is in Grade 11/12, provide them with guidance.

Average people give the worst advice and only project what they wanted for themselves on you.

Example: My dad, when talking to people would basically say that a doctor is the best career to have. Engineering sucks, lawyer sucks, everything else sucks, become a doctor. Then on the other hand he would talk about how his trades friends or non doctor friends made 6 figures.

He never directly told me this, but his projections led me down the path to get a Biology degree ( which is usually the the degree people use to apply to med).

After 1 year I knew I didnt want anything to do with Med/ Dent/ Pharm, yet I completed the degree half heartedly.

Now almost 2 years after graduating I'm in only a slightly better situation financially, then I was before.

Average people give average and most of the time, shitty advice.

Advice to give to 11/12th grades:

1. Think about the military. If you don think about the military, use them to your advantage. Sign up for a cush job that gives you skills employers look for. The military pays for your education, pays you during the hardest years (no real world experience or expertise in any given field), and can give you the GI bill.
1. Look into AP tests.
2. Look into CLEP tests.
3. Pick a state school you want, then pick a community college that acts as "feeder" route for the school. You will knock out your bullshit gen eds for about a 1/4 of the cost.
4. Go STEM. There are very few degrees worth pursuing at the cost of higher education outside of STEM fields. A few would be nursing (nursing pays well, and male nurses can rake in pussy), finance, and....well thats all I got now that I think about it.
5. Consider trade schools. If they are the type that likes to work with their hands or have never been that "book smart", they might be able to crush it in the trades.

[ElFlaco]

I had the opportunity to attend an elite liberal arts college (with some financial aid) or a decent state school with a full ride + stipend. I chose the elite school because I thought it would look better. Stupid. It's not one of the top 10 so many people outside of that universe haven't heard of it. I've regretted that decision made at age 17 my whole life. School is what you make of it but it's taken me decades to get over the brainwashing. I would have gotten a better education elsewhere.

[Cobra]

I have absolutely no idea why some of you guys are generalizing college as a scam when what you study, where you study and the quality of it matters so much more.

Don't let the spectre of liberalism dissuade you from an education at a viable institution that can greatly increase your net worth over time in certain fields of study. Not to mention the friendships you create while there and the networks that otherwise would not be available to you.

Even with all the downsides, the upsides of a more accelerated career with better opportunities over time is totally worth it. I also don't understand how some people are justifying waitresses and vocational jobs making even good money. That may be true but they are never going to make anywhere near what a top finance, engineering, medical or legal professional can make. Not to mention being more challenged in their fields as they progress. I don't think too many people want to be waiting tables when they're 40+. Even if you say they can save money for their own business, explain to me how they can succeed then their college graduated competition has a much larger network and contact pool with more credibility.

Look, someone with no college education can get into some business or be an entrepreneur but that's not easy. They have certain skills already that others acquire later at, you guessed it, college. The entrepreneurs that have done it are very rare. Most will find that they lack the skills, situation, network and initial capital required to do so.

I would love to have a business which is location independent and run things online if I could. However, I have been able to make a lot more with my education working with some of the top people in my industry and enjoy the time I spend with my family and my children including some nice vacations for them.

I served in the military so college was a gift given to me for honorable service. I complained before that I didn't bang enough women while there etc. However, come to think of it, that was a gift given to me by this country that I benefited greatly from later on. So my previous complaints now seem very petty knowing I would not have been here today without college.

The so called "liberal influence in colleges takes away from their value" is a narrative I call bullshit on. I have children. So, yes, I will make them aware of the environment in college but not advise them against it. Any parent doing that unless they're turning over a business to their children would be utterly stupid in my opinion. Quality of education and liberal influence on that education are 2 distinct components that need to be evaluated individually, not haphazardly without further thought.

[Australia Sucks]

Cobra I am not saying university is bad I am just saying the old days of "just study something at any university and everything will be fine" are over. For previous generations just getting any old degree would have been inexpensive and landed them a good job. Those days are gone and we live in a more expensive and competitive world. To get a return on their investment people need to pick the right university and the right course. Most people make the wrong choices.

[Cobra]

^I agree but my point is that we in the manosphere underemphasize the benefits of college sometimes for the sole purpose of some anti-feminist agenda, rather than, yes, like you said, emphasize how to navigate choices and effective programs. I hate SJW and feminist infestation of college just as much as the next member, but I guess I would rather college not be used as a tool for this anti-liberal war even more. The benefits are significantly larger than the costs if you choose the right elements.

If you're a newbie with no direction, as I once was, it can easily cause a dissuasion against the very institution of college without seeing the real benefits.

[soviet_dissident]

[sonoran_]

When I started reading the manoshphere, I fell into the thinking of all college is a waste and you should think about business.

This led me to half ass most of my time at university. I could have put in more effort into studies, into getting field related summer jobs etc, but I thought that since it was all useless and Ill open up a business anyways after graduating theres no need to put in the effort.

[LoveBug]

Unfortunately not oversold for meeting women. Nowhere can you be around the quantity of young women still than the local campus

But as for job opportunities, usually the intelligent guy who knocks socks off at the interviews and has practical experience will get the nod, kinda like with women.

[Conquerer7]

(08-10-2017 01:28 PM)LoveBug Wrote:  

Unfortunately not oversold for meeting women. Nowhere can you be around the quantity of young women still than the local campus

But as for job opportunities, usually the intelligent guy who knocks socks off at the interviews and has practical experience will get the nod, kinda like with women.

You don't have to be going to the University or College to run game on the campus.

[LoveBug]

True

[scorpion]

Most guys shouldn't be going to college these days. I'd say only men with top 10% IQs (maybe top 20% if you've got a stellar work ethic) should even bother. This is because the only majors worth having at this point are the difficult ones that directly prepare you for careers which are also cognitively demanding. If you don't have the intellectual chops to hack a difficult degree, there's no point wasting your time in college. The era of the four-year degree being inherently valuable, even as a resume filler, is essentially over. Within the next 5-10 years it will be totally extinct.

High IQ men with mathematical aptitude: Electrical, Mechanical or Chemical Engineering, Mathematics, or Comp Sci
High IQ men with science aptitude & strong work ethic: Pre-med/biology
High IQ men with language aptitude and connections/hustle: Pre-law
High IQ men with general aptitude and good social skills: Finance/Accounting and mandatory CPA/MBA

Most guys who don't go to college should be doing one of three things:

1) Master a skilled trade and use that knowledge to run your own business within a few years.
2) Become very good at sales.
3) Become a micro-entrepreneur and eventually scale up into larger businesses.

Basically, unless you have a laser-focused objective in mind which can only be accomplished by going to college (i.e. "I want to be an Orthopedic surgeon" or "I want to join my Uncle's successful Law firm" or "I want be a licensed professional engineer") AND you have the proven cognitive ability, you should not go to college. Don't go to college if you don't have any idea what you want to study. Don't go to college because you think you need to in order to "get a job". Don't go to college just because you're from an upper middle class background and going to college is what everyone else is doing.

The economy we have now is increasingly stratified. Winner take all. You've got to bring serious firepower to bear if you want to get ahead. That means you either go hard and leverage your cognitive ability with a difficult major, or else you learn how to hustle in the trades, sales or entrepreneurship.

[dsutmdo]

Bottom Line...If you can't throw a baseball better than 99% of the population or hit a golf ball better than the 99% or bench over 300Lbs in high school....join the military, for four years...get free college and get paid....clean kill.....saves you and your family 6 figures, it will keep your head on straight in important years..and you will end up with a skill and respect

[LoveBug]

Taking on serious debt while not getting a high end degree is questionable. I graduated in polisci from a state school, but first, I was literally being paid to go to school, and I merely used it as a potential springboard into a quality grad program. In Cali, and possibly the US, they had public grants, and special grants for the non working, both for two years of JuCo and undergrad that covered the fees and then some. And whizzing past polisci undergrad, I didn't have to work hard and I graduated cum lauded which allowed me easy access to the schools MBA program, which again had grants which covered most of the fees (although I didn't finish)