[Batata]

The topic title refers to a book that is meant to serve as an expose of the "seduction industry."

Among his arguments:

1. Most self-proclaimed PUA's who solicit their services to teach people to get laid rarely get laid themselves. He describes one PUA who became a workshop instructor for Mystery's company after having gotten one lay.

2. He calls the Mystery Method nonsensical and convoluted to the point that it's destructive to a man's chances at getting laid. His key sticking point on MM is the "seven hour rule," and how it is a stupid, unnecessary time frame that most competent seducers can work under.

3. Game is not "the great equalizer" in male-female relationships, and that you must cultivate a positive aesthetic and psychological image of yourself via "great success" in a particular field. Once you have achieved success in an endeavor, lays should come naturally to you.

4. Surprisingly, he never advocates "grinding" out with tens of approaches before finally getting a lay. He even derides that strategy, saying that it's not actually game: approach enough women and one is going to like you enough to fuck you.

5. Most pickup material is "mental masturbation."

Has anybody else read this (short) book? A lot of the stuff he says goes against the thinking of a lot of bloggers I read regularly, i.e. Roissy and Roosh. I looked around the forum for a thread on this but nothing came up.

[Prowl]

Meh, the truth is somewhere between the fervor and the skepticism.

Lots of people selling snake oil and plenty of people either selling or giving away good information.

Also, this book seems to be taking particular aim at MM, which is nothing new, and all it's doing is espousing a different view of seduction.

[Batata]

Yeah, I don't think he's a legit game denialist, he just has a more casual natural view on seduction.

[joehoya]

There is a little truth in point 4 depending on your perspective. On one hand, he is correct that just approaching a bunch of women doesn't mean that you are smooth, or have what many would consider game. In addition, he is also correct that if you approach enough chicks at least a few will eventually fuck you.

However, I would argue that actually approaching women, while ridiculously basic, is the biggest stumbling block many guys have. I remember back in college, when I was in full on beta (bordering on omega) mode. One of the first big changes for me was seeing this chubby, frumpy looking guy go from never going out with chicks to dating girls all of the time. I asked him what was his secret. He said "I found out that if you ask girls out, most of the time they will say yes, even the hot ones."

Even though I saw his results, I still didn't believe him. It wasn't until I asked one of my female friends and she told me that she would give any guy who asked her a shot with at least one date that I tried it out. Turns out he was completely right. I went from no dates and a bunch of female friends, to multiple dates a week. I even started getting laid on a semi-regular basis. It wasn't spectacular numbers, but it was better than most guys on campus, other than the jocks and super-pretty boys. If I had actually learned to escalate better I would have absolutely destroyed college.

My personal opinion is that if guys just did 3 things, you could throw out all of the strategies, negging, cocky/funny, DHV, being alpha stuff and you would still get 10 times as much poon as you were getting before. Here it is:
1)Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

That's it. Unless you have horrible hygiene or a personality disorder, doing that all of the time will get you laid pretty regularly. You may not be able to regularly score 10's with just that, but lets be honest. most guys would be happy if they could CONSISTENTLY bang chicks around the same looks as them without having to commit to some kind of LTR. In truth, the fact that so few guys can actually even do this explains why so many men wind up marrying some sub-par chick that is giving him pussy on a semi-regular basis.

[wolf]

(12-19-2011 12:57 AM)joehoya Wrote:  

There is a little truth in point 4 depending on your perspective. On one hand, he is correct that just approaching a bunch of women doesn't mean that you are smooth, or have what many would consider game. In addition, he is also correct that if you approach enough chicks at least a few will eventually fuck you.

However, I would argue that actually approaching women, while ridiculously basic, is the biggest stumbling block many guys have. I remember back in college, when I was in full on beta (bordering on omega) mode. One of the first big changes for me was seeing this chubby, frumpy looking guy go from never going out with chicks to dating girls all of the time. I asked him what was his secret. He said "I found out that if you ask girls out, most of the time they will say yes, even the hot ones."

Even though I saw his results, I still didn't believe him. It wasn't until I asked one of my female friends and she told me that she would give any guy who asked her a shot with at least one date that I tried it out. Turns out he was completely right. I went from no dates and a bunch of female friends, to multiple dates a week. I even started getting laid on a semi-regular basis. It wasn't spectacular numbers, but it was better than most guys on campus, other than the jocks and super-pretty boys. If I had actually learned to escalate better I would have absolutely destroyed college.

My personal opinion is that if guys just did 3 things, you could throw out all of the strategies, negging, cocky/funny, DHV, being alpha stuff and you would still get 10 times as much poon as you were getting before. Here it is:
1)Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

That's it. Unless you have horrible hygiene or a personality disorder, doing that all of the time will get you laid pretty regularly. You may not be able to regularly score 10's with just that, but lets be honest. most guys would be happy if they could CONSISTENTLY bang chicks around the same looks as them without having to commit to some kind of LTR. In truth, the fact that so few guys can actually even do this explains why so many men wind up marrying some sub-par chick that is giving him pussy on a semi-regular basis.

EXACTLY!

In fact reading this post should be a requirement when you sign up for this board!

I'm going to print it out and tape it on my wall because I forget this sometimes.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

While I agree that everyone could benefit from those 3 points, I find that viewing the world through rose-tinted glasses. The massive amounts of friendzoning, flaking, "I gotta do something, sorry" and etc would make a wreck out of someone long before he managed to get any success just with that. But maybe I've just been very unlucky.

[davidkm590]

Like someone said before, I think the truth lies in between.

Some of his key points listed out are spot on, and there really is a shitton of mental masturbation.

With that being said, here's what I think are some fundamentals that people sometimes overlook(a lot):
-basic social skills
-working out and dressing well
-being able to recognize women that are interested and escalating there
-approaching enough women - it really is a numbers game. You can increase your ability, but you still will have to do the approaching and it's inevitable you'll face rejection .
-having enough game - knowing how to tease women and be firm with them(boundaries whatnot which actually ties into just having some damn standards)
-having hobbies, interests, passions that you pursue - a good lifestyle

What I think game is:
I really believe that "game" really is more for women that are on the fence and being able to manage logistics. I used to think that meeting and seducing women was some intense battle where I had to "frame control" women and put her in her place when in reality, women want to fuck and want guys to fuck them(I know this sounds stupid, but too times women are treated like they're some mortal enemy). In retrospect, more women were interested in me than I thought and I just was too idiotic to recognize the signs or do something.

However, I say all of this after having gone through a shitton of mental masturbation, excessive reading, and approaching women before I finally moved on to being a normal guy who has some game.

If you're a normal guy with social skills that dresses well, works out, and has a relatively interesting life, I think it's almost a given you should have a few options. Having "game" then would be like icing on a cake - it'd only make things better

[Iceinthewater]

if Sleazy's angle is simply debunking Ross Jeffries and Mystery, he can join the club. That's like a guy writing a book debunking that the moon is made of cheese. Duh.

Mystery and Ross are clowns that don't take their job seriously. It's kind of obvious to NORMAL people, but if you're a guy who has ZERO experience with women, then you don't really know the difference I guess.

I've been a dating coach for men for 5 years and I treat my job just like any other coach or consultant or trainer. I work hard to figure out the best ways to get results for my clients. Fundamental to that is that I practice what I preach in my personal life. You wouldn't hire a personal trainer if he had a pot belly. But you also wouldn't hire a guy that was naturally skinny. You'd want a guy who had figured out how to get a six pack and bench 350, and could teach it to you.

If you're looking for an expert, it means you want elite results. Approaching a lot of women and trying to escalate will get you laid on occasion. If you want higher quality and quantity (as us guys do), then you find someone who's much much better than you.

My clients tend to be very driven, success-oriented, intelligent successful guys in other areas, and want elite results in this part of their lives. Most of them are already good with women. They want to be excellent.

If I have a 40 year old engineer, doctor, or business owner coming to me for live coaching, I need to be able to demonstrate AND transfer the skills to him in short order. I need to be able to show him what's truly possible with the right mental tools.

SOME people in my field are serious, but most are not. I see the dating coach field as the medical field in it's early days. It was a joke - bloodletting? cmon...this is where the whole snake oil joke comes from. In the late 1800's, people really did think snake oil did something. Cocaine was seen as a cure for having "weak blood." Now the medical field is legit. A big part of this is peer review and institutionalized standards. Success/life/dating coaches aren't even close to that kind of industry-imposed standard and probably never will be.

Pick your mentors/sources wisely. Just look at the guy - can you imagine the hot girls in your school or that you know wanting to suck his dick? If no, then you're probably right.

[Batata]

I probably should have done some more digging on this guy before I posted his manifesto.

This Aaron Sleazy guy ironically writes his own PUA books, and has his own forum where he mostly posts to himself about picking up women.

[pitt]

(12-19-2011 12:57 AM)joehoya Wrote:  

There is a little truth in point 4 depending on your perspective. On one hand, he is correct that just approaching a bunch of women doesn't mean that you are smooth, or have what many would consider game. In addition, he is also correct that if you approach enough chicks at least a few will eventually fuck you.

However, I would argue that actually approaching women, while ridiculously basic, is the biggest stumbling block many guys have. I remember back in college, when I was in full on beta (bordering on omega) mode. One of the first big changes for me was seeing this chubby, frumpy looking guy go from never going out with chicks to dating girls all of the time. I asked him what was his secret. He said "I found out that if you ask girls out, most of the time they will say yes, even the hot ones."

Even though I saw his results, I still didn't believe him. It wasn't until I asked one of my female friends and she told me that she would give any guy who asked her a shot with at least one date that I tried it out. Turns out he was completely right. I went from no dates and a bunch of female friends, to multiple dates a week. I even started getting laid on a semi-regular basis. It wasn't spectacular numbers, but it was better than most guys on campus, other than the jocks and super-pretty boys. If I had actually learned to escalate better I would have absolutely destroyed college.

My personal opinion is that if guys just did 3 things, you could throw out all of the strategies, negging, cocky/funny, DHV, being alpha stuff and you would still get 10 times as much poon as you were getting before. Here it is:
1)Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

That's it. Unless you have horrible hygiene or a personality disorder, doing that all of the time will get you laid pretty regularly. You may not be able to regularly score 10's with just that, but lets be honest. most guys would be happy if they could CONSISTENTLY bang chicks around the same looks as them without having to commit to some kind of LTR. In truth, the fact that so few guys can actually even do this explains why so many men wind up marrying some sub-par chick that is giving him pussy on a semi-regular basis.

That shit is so true. Man i noticed how much i have started banging chicks soon as i start approaching chicks all the time. I had this friend back in London who used to ask me all the time, ''but how come you get so many girls man, what do you do?'' i was like, i just approach them and then try get them to come to my house. He thought i was using manipulative strategies to fuck chicks, however when i was using manipulative strategies it was the time that i was scoring less.

But i liked your comment, its a powerful one and is good to remind us players.

Also and for the guys who dont believe this, i had this friend who looked like a tramp, dude used to look kinda dirty but had mad confidence skills. He would approach chicks anywhere and everywhere and when we were younger the quality of women he was pulling it was impressive, but when we were getting older it got to a stage where almost every woman in London knew him, and girls just thought that he never grows up..last time he brought a chick to my house (She was a badd one), i ended up fucking her, she just changed her mind about fucking him, dude kinda died in the game. Then thats where having money plays a part, the older you get, the more you will need to resemble some stability in terms of having money.

[wolf]

(12-19-2011 05:12 AM)pitt Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 12:57 AM)joehoya Wrote:  

There is a little truth in point 4 depending on your perspective. On one hand, he is correct that just approaching a bunch of women doesn't mean that you are smooth, or have what many would consider game. In addition, he is also correct that if you approach enough chicks at least a few will eventually fuck you.

However, I would argue that actually approaching women, while ridiculously basic, is the biggest stumbling block many guys have. I remember back in college, when I was in full on beta (bordering on omega) mode. One of the first big changes for me was seeing this chubby, frumpy looking guy go from never going out with chicks to dating girls all of the time. I asked him what was his secret. He said "I found out that if you ask girls out, most of the time they will say yes, even the hot ones."

Even though I saw his results, I still didn't believe him. It wasn't until I asked one of my female friends and she told me that she would give any guy who asked her a shot with at least one date that I tried it out. Turns out he was completely right. I went from no dates and a bunch of female friends, to multiple dates a week. I even started getting laid on a semi-regular basis. It wasn't spectacular numbers, but it was better than most guys on campus, other than the jocks and super-pretty boys. If I had actually learned to escalate better I would have absolutely destroyed college.

My personal opinion is that if guys just did 3 things, you could throw out all of the strategies, negging, cocky/funny, DHV, being alpha stuff and you would still get 10 times as much poon as you were getting before. Here it is:
1)Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

That's it. Unless you have horrible hygiene or a personality disorder, doing that all of the time will get you laid pretty regularly. You may not be able to regularly score 10's with just that, but lets be honest. most guys would be happy if they could CONSISTENTLY bang chicks around the same looks as them without having to commit to some kind of LTR. In truth, the fact that so few guys can actually even do this explains why so many men wind up marrying some sub-par chick that is giving him pussy on a semi-regular basis.

That shit is so true. Man i noticed how much i have started banging chicks soon as i start approaching chicks all the time. I had this friend back in London who used to ask me all the time, ''but how come you get so many girls man, what do you do?'' i was like, i just approach them and then try get them to come to my house. He thought i was using manipulative strategies to fuck chicks, however when i was using manipulative strategies it was the time that i was scoring less.

But i liked your comment, its a powerful one and is good to remind us players.

Also and for the guys who dont believe this, i had this friend who looked like a tramp, dude used to look kinda dirty but had mad confidence skills. He would approach chicks anywhere and everywhere and when we were younger the quality of women he was pulling it was impressive, but when we were getting older it got to a stage where almost every woman in London knew him, and girls just thought that he never grows up..last time he brought a chick to my house (She was a badd one), i ended up fucking her, she just changed her mind about fucking him, dude kinda died in the game. Then thats where having money plays a part, the older you get, the more you will need to resemble some stability in terms of having money.

You made two very good points,
a) when you are using manipulative strategies they can feel that.
b) as you get older you need more money to look "attractive".

[WestIndianArchie]

Enough with this keyboard jockey debunking.
Can we get back to talking about game?

[Private Man]

Confidence sub-routine.

[Gmac]

Quote:

1) Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

This is essentially "sarging" -- sorry, it doesn't work as well as you'd think... in and of itself. It's like trying to brute force your way through everything in life. Sure, it'll work once or twice, but it's not surefire method. It's not game either.

[Iceinthewater]

(12-19-2011 10:35 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Quote:

1) Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

This is essentially "sarging" -- sorry, it doesn't work as well as you'd think... in and of itself. It's like trying to brute force your way through everything in life. Sure, it'll work once or twice, but it's not surefire method. It's not game either.

Yup - it's not game. It'll get you laid occasionally. I think we're all here because we have high standards for ourselves.

"sarging" god I hate that word lol

[kimleebj]

(12-19-2011 10:35 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Quote:

1) Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

This is essentially "sarging" -- sorry, it doesn't work as well as you'd think... in and of itself. It's like trying to brute force your way through everything in life. Sure, it'll work once or twice, but it's not surefire method. It's not game either.

I see both sides here. In my historical dry spells, I was approaching zero women. Maybe I would Forrest Gump my way into dating a woman in my social circle. But more likely I would get motivated and do something, anything. It could be approaching, personal ads, speed dating. Anything worked better than being a hermit.

But there is no question I have benefited from improved skills. It's an interesting question, because we don't have a controlled sample of guys who approached with and without studying game.

The "approach and escalate" concept makes a lot of sense. I doubt you call appearance, alcohol, and logistics game, or at least non-obvious game. Gmac, can you suggest two or three important game concepts that would improve these results?

[joehoya]

(12-19-2011 10:35 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Quote:

1) Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

This is essentially "sarging" -- sorry, it doesn't work as well as you'd think... in and of itself. It's like trying to brute force your way through everything in life. Sure, it'll work once or twice, but it's not surefire method. It's not game either.

I never said it was game, I just said it would get you laid consistently. Personally, I don't give a shit whether something is "game" or not. I only care about the results. Now, if it doesn't work for you, that's cool. I'm not going to even attempt to figure out why that strategy doesn't work for you. I can tell you that just doing that worked wonders for me and several guys that I know.

[joehoya]

(12-19-2011 11:08 PM)Iceinthewater Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 10:35 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Quote:

1) Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

This is essentially "sarging" -- sorry, it doesn't work as well as you'd think... in and of itself. It's like trying to brute force your way through everything in life. Sure, it'll work once or twice, but it's not surefire method. It's not game either.

Yup - it's not game. It'll get you laid occasionally. I think we're all here because we have high standards for ourselves.

"sarging" god I hate that word lol

Let me ask you this. As a dating coach, could you teach a guy enough game that he can bang multiple women regularly WITHOUT doing any of the above mentioned things?

[Iceinthewater]

(12-20-2011 03:39 AM)joehoya Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 11:08 PM)Iceinthewater Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 10:35 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Quote:

1) Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

This is essentially "sarging" -- sorry, it doesn't work as well as you'd think... in and of itself. It's like trying to brute force your way through everything in life. Sure, it'll work once or twice, but it's not surefire method. It's not game either.

Yup - it's not game. It'll get you laid occasionally. I think we're all here because we have high standards for ourselves.

"sarging" god I hate that word lol

Let me ask you this. As a dating coach, could you teach a guy enough game that he can bang multiple women regularly WITHOUT doing any of the above mentioned things?

That's a good question - it illustrates that these things are fundamental to getting started.

But yea, the point is to reduce how often you approach, and how persistent you have to be - in other words, escalating isn't hard at all - not something you have to "try" to do.

Approaching becomes more about finding the ones you really want, and making it happen at least 1 out of 3, instead of approaching a ton of women and wearing yourself out. approaching all the time gets old real fast.

Persistence is really no longer the right word. Hanging out and having fun together is a better description of my lifestyle. You want women escalating on you, or at least making themselves very available.

[pitt]

(12-20-2011 04:26 AM)Iceinthewater Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:39 AM)joehoya Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 11:08 PM)Iceinthewater Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 10:35 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Quote:

1) Approach often
2) Escalate continuously
3) Be persistent

This is essentially "sarging" -- sorry, it doesn't work as well as you'd think... in and of itself. It's like trying to brute force your way through everything in life. Sure, it'll work once or twice, but it's not surefire method. It's not game either.

Yup - it's not game. It'll get you laid occasionally. I think we're all here because we have high standards for ourselves.

"sarging" god I hate that word lol

Let me ask you this. As a dating coach, could you teach a guy enough game that he can bang multiple women regularly WITHOUT doing any of the above mentioned things?

That's a good question - it illustrates that these things are fundamental to getting started.

But yea, the point is to reduce how often you approach, and how persistent you have to be - in other words, escalating isn't hard at all - not something you have to "try" to do.

Approaching becomes more about finding the ones you really want, and making it happen at least 1 out of 3, instead of approaching a ton of women and wearing yourself out. approaching all the time gets old real fast.

Persistence is really no longer the right word. Hanging out and having fun together is a better description of my lifestyle. You want women escalating on you, or at least making themselves very available.

Actually i reccommend approaching all the time, specially for new guys in the game. Choosing the best chicks available in the market at all times will make any guy scores less than he could be scoring. I usually go for women with nice ass, if she has a booty, i am approaching her, however it doesnt mean i wouldnt approach a sexy skinnny bitch. Sometimes i lower my standards, i will fuck a 6.5 if i am really horny that day (I even done worse than that)..i have been to cities around the world where i was trying to fuck an 8 on the same day and most of girls were just giving me the number and telling me that they would come meet me another day, i was like fuck this, i am lowering the standards, see this chick with a cute face but kinda fat (i would give her a 5)..i approached her, invited her to my house and fucked the shit out of her... so if you want to score a lot, then approaching a lot is key. I am always moving from barrios to barrios, if you stay in one neighbourhood all the time then you are making yourself too visible but for the guys who are always on the hunt in different hoods, they are not really making themselves that visible.. but i dont even give a fuck about it... i have been to parties where i approached all women in the party and took one home to fuck lol.

[Iceinthewater]

(12-20-2011 04:49 AM)pitt Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 04:26 AM)Iceinthewater Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:39 AM)joehoya Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 11:08 PM)Iceinthewater Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 10:35 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

This is essentially "sarging" -- sorry, it doesn't work as well as you'd think... in and of itself. It's like trying to brute force your way through everything in life. Sure, it'll work once or twice, but it's not surefire method. It's not game either.

Yup - it's not game. It'll get you laid occasionally. I think we're all here because we have high standards for ourselves.

"sarging" god I hate that word lol

Let me ask you this. As a dating coach, could you teach a guy enough game that he can bang multiple women regularly WITHOUT doing any of the above mentioned things?

That's a good question - it illustrates that these things are fundamental to getting started.

But yea, the point is to reduce how often you approach, and how persistent you have to be - in other words, escalating isn't hard at all - not something you have to "try" to do.

Approaching becomes more about finding the ones you really want, and making it happen at least 1 out of 3, instead of approaching a ton of women and wearing yourself out. approaching all the time gets old real fast.

Persistence is really no longer the right word. Hanging out and having fun together is a better description of my lifestyle. You want women escalating on you, or at least making themselves very available.

Actually i reccommend approaching all the time, specially for new guys in the game. Choosing the best chicks available in the market at all times will make any guy scores less than he could be scoring. I usually go for women with nice ass, if she has a booty, i am approaching her, however it doesnt mean i wouldnt approach a sexy skinnny bitch. Sometimes i lower my standards, i will fuck a 6.5 if i am really horny that day (I even done worse than that)..i have been to cities around the world where i was trying to fuck an 8 on the same day and most of girls were just giving me the number and telling me that they would come meet me another day, i was like fuck this, i am lowering the standards, see this chick with a cute face but kinda fat (i would give her a 5)..i approached her, invited her to my house and fucked the shit out of her... so if you want to score a lot, then approaching a lot is key. I am always moving from barrios to barrios, if you stay in one neighbourhood all the time then you are making yourself too visible but for the guys who are always on the hunt in different hoods, they are not really making themselves that visible.. but i dont even give a fuck about it... i have been to parties where i approached all women in the party and took one home to fuck lol.

I feel you Pitt. I mean, when I get to DR I'm sure I'll be a madman. But it's like, how often do you see your ideal type chicks? I mean even in NYC I'd see my 10s like maybe twice a day IF I was out and about.

For a young dude, hell yea, approach everything fuckable. that's what I did. It paid off.

But now I'd say I approach maybe 2-3 chicks in a week. Maybe a couple if I go out, maybe get a number at the mall or on the street or something.

If you have a talented team, you don't really need to be running around so much.

I do know that guys who are really prolific tend to also be very horny. I attribute a lot of my motivation to improve on my sex drive lol

[Roosh]

Game denialist nonsense by a guy who wants to replace game with just another flavor of game.