[Timoteo]

I think the problem is he's cold and logical, laying out all the reasons they are compatible, while women are on the whole, "I didn't feel a spark" bullshit. He didn't give her the tingles, but he's sending her what amounts to a business proposal attempting to convince her to take the deal. In this particular context, it comes off as incredibly needy. It's obviously on her to grant a second date, but it's undignified for a man to beg the way he is in this missive.

[misterstir]

See I disagree and agree. I agree its not the most effective way to get a woman into bed. However I disagree he should use some other method (even though gaming is probably way more effective) because it caves in to women's bad behavior. We both agree the women here is depending on some kind of vague reason like "butterflies" "spark" and "pizzazz" but game is really just a sophisticated way of trying to get approval of a woman but instead of saying please like me, you use game to get the girl to like you because she will not recognize it as beta; instead of correct the bad behavior - picking men based on vague reasoning. Instead Game teaches to mimic the behavior of an alpha male, but at its root game is beta because it is about doing a set of actions to try to get women to like you, so the top gamer is just an approval seeker.

Further I do not see him begging, he is making a suggestion/asking. Given that a girl would never do such an action she is in now spot to criticize.

[BortimusPrime]

Alright, to put this in perspective, imagine going on a blind date with a girl who turned out to be fat or had a small tree growing out the side of her head. You put in an hour out of politeness, and afterwards you get an email like the one this guy sent.

Still feel sorry for the investment banker now? I really don't see this girl as having been a bitch or doing anything remotely out of the ordinary. The guy is either woefully inexperienced or a nutcase.

[Timoteo]

"...Given that a girl would never do such an action she is in now spot to criticize."

Fair enough, but women are ALWAYS in a spot to criticize, or at least they believe they are. And you're assuming there was some form of "bad behavior" on her part. She may simply not want to see him again (whatever the reason), and one of the ways some people do this is to not reply to attempts at communication with the hopes the other party gets the hint. He showed annoyance and impatience when she didn't reply, like a stalking, crazy chick would do. He dug the hole deeper. He also did another female-like thing - he started making all kinds of future plans for things he wanted to do together, basically trying to lure her back with philharmonic tickets, offering carrots. I get it...he likes her, thinks he clicks with her, they share some interests, etc. so he thinks it's a match based on that. But this email is just EXTRA. If a chick doesn't respond, you move on. You don't do THIS.

[El Rey]

(12-07-2011 10:29 PM)misterstir Wrote:  

See I disagree and agree. I agree its not the most effective way to get a woman into bed. However I disagree he should use some other method (even though gaming is probably way more effective) because it caves in to women's bad behavior. We both agree the women here is depending on some kind of vague reason like "butterflies" "spark" and "pizzazz" but game is really just a sophisticated way of trying to get approval of a woman but instead of saying please like me, you use game to get the girl to like you because she will not recognize it as beta; instead of correct the bad behavior - picking men based on vague reasoning. Instead Game teaches to mimic the behavior of an alpha male, but at its root game is beta because it is about doing a set of actions to try to get women to like you, so the top gamer is just an approval seeker.

Further I do not see him begging, he is making a suggestion/asking. Given that a girl would never do such an action she is in now spot to criticize.

Reverse troll?

[CJ]

Heh, this is truly pathetic, although it does make me reflect upon some of the dumbshit I surely did 3+ years ago. Damn I'm glad I'm me now.

[misterstir]

(12-07-2011 10:40 PM)BortimusPrime Wrote:  

Alright, to put this in perspective, imagine going on a blind date with a girl who turned out to be fat or had a small tree growing out the side of her head. You put in an hour out of politeness, and afterwards you get an email like the one this guy sent.

Still feel sorry for the investment banker now? I really don't see this girl as having been a bitch or doing anything remotely out of the ordinary. The guy is either woefully inexperienced or a nutcase.

Ok Lets review what he said. So what if he is inexperienced. Everyone starts somewhere. Does that give an excuse to denigrate the guy. IMO that stems from our (yes men too) feminist brainwashing that says its ok to laugh at men who pursue women, if they are not 100% perfect in their approach. Did this guy have a tree in his head? Is this guy fat, well being fat is not a game killer for men like it is for women. He is a nutcase for trying to get a girlfriend instead of going back to his mansion and ordering some escorts?

""I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens. Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven't returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I'm open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too. If you don't want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life. If you don't want to go out again, then you should have called to tell me so. Even sending a text message would have been better than nothing. In my opinion, not responding to my messages is impolite, immature, passive aggressive, and cowardly.""

[misterstir]

(12-07-2011 10:55 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

"...Given that a girl would never do such an action she is in now spot to criticize."

Fair enough, but women are ALWAYS in a spot to criticize, or at least they believe they are. And you're assuming there was some form of "bad behavior" on her part. She may simply not want to see him again (whatever the reason), and one of the ways some people do this is to not reply to attempts at communication with the hopes the other party gets the hint. He showed annoyance and impatience when she didn't reply, like a stalking, crazy chick would do. He dug the hole deeper. He also did another female-like thing - he started making all kinds of future plans for things he wanted to do together, basically trying to lure her back with philharmonic tickets, offering carrots. I get it...he likes her, thinks he clicks with her, they share some interests, etc. so he thinks it's a match based on that. But this email is just EXTRA. If a chick doesn't respond, you move on. You don't do THIS.

Women believe they are in a spot to criticize but if men ignore their criticism they will become meaningless. Would you listen to a dating coach who never had a date? Why would you listen to a women on how to pickup/attract women- when was the last time they picked up one?

If someone doesn't want to go on a date with you the decent thing to do is to tell the person you're not interested. In my opinion people who ignore are acting irresponsibly and subtly encouraging the other party to call because they'll wonder if you were hit by a bus and are in the hospital, got your phone cut off, or the 100 other reasons why the person didn't get the call. Its not unusual for even my own mother to miss a few of my phone calls, by the logic of non response I should stop calling my mother.

You are arguing what is in the short term effective. I do not agree, if your goal is to just put your dick in as many vaginas as possible, I do not dispute a thing you said, 100% correct are you. BUT

If you look at long term effectiveness, men would be spared on a whole - and women too- wasting time calling and listening to messages from the opposite gender if women just took A SHRED of responsibility for their actions then these kind of situations could never happen.
1. Woman dodges responsibility by telling man she is not interested so she ends up going on date
2. Woman dodges responsibility by not picking up phone after date to tell man she is not interested
3. = If a woman is not interested =man fault because women is responsible for nothing.

You saying man should recognize that women is not interested =endorsement of bad female behaviour; because by refusing to speak out against it, you silently endorse it

Me saying bad female behaviour should be corrected = correct behaviour because I am telling a woman where her place is. Would you tell an adult male friend its ok to ignore phone calls of someone you are not interested rather than just saying the truth?

Just to show you an example. I put on my online dating profile a mirror of what a woman would write, and messaged about 10 girls (ie. no fat chick, if i like you my assitant will call you and you can wait in the lobby of my mansion while I polish my silver spoon). I got a message from several average but decent looking girls telling me how rude I was and she was trying to set me straight and correct my behaviour (ie who do you think you are to have your assitant call girls). Now I am certain if I sent her a generic email she'd would have ignored it. But women understand how important it is to "put men in their place". and if men do not do it as a group, it will continue to be shitty for all of us.

[misterstir]

You cannot troll on women because they are inherently below men

[BortimusPrime]

Look, I love a good "bitches be trippin" rant as much as the next guy on this forum, but frankly as far as I can tell from this guy's email, he's a nutter and the girl didn't do anything wrong. I sure as shit don't bother with pointing out to the girl that I'm really not interested after ONE sucky date.

This guy is deserving of ridicule because of his ridiculous entitled attitude, and for the ironic fact that his very behavior is precisely the reason a girl is prone to just cutting off contact after a bad date...she doesn't want to end up getting this kind of an email. Seriously, while reading the damn thing I got the impression that if it had been conducted in person instead of via email, he'd have her duct-taped to an antique chair and be hissing his rant directly into her ear while stroking her hair as classical music plays in the background. Then she'd start screaming uncontrollably and he'd start screaming along with her screams while tugging at his nipples.

[Hooligan Harry]

This is what happens when a guy spends his whole life reading GQ, Mens Health and Cosmo for tips on how to deal with women.

[misterstir]

Western society has been conditioned to blame men for everything. Nothing in his email is inherently offesnive, crude, rude, or vile. He made a SUGGESTION, that they meet again, he did not demand it. In the case of a man it is obvious because if he doesn't call the woman = not interested.

Yes he has a entitled attitude for suggesting a 2nd date, ooooh its the end of the world. Again a girl "cutting" of contact is just an excuse for her bad and lousy behaviour of not wanting to own up to the decision she made to go out on a date. If a woman plans a business meeting with you, and the meeting goes poorly does she cut off contact with you forever? No, she will express a desire to not meet you or simply say not interested and thats the end of it. The comments about the man being a rapist are just more notions propped up by the feminist media. If a man approaches a woman it is either sexual harassment, creepy, or somehow wrong unless of course the woman wants it then it is ok.

[kanevast]

awesome.

[Caligula]

(12-08-2011 02:29 AM)misterstir Wrote:  

Western society has been conditioned to blame men for everything. Nothing in his email is inherently offesnive, crude, rude, or vile. He made a SUGGESTION, that they meet again, he did not demand it. In the case of a man it is obvious because if he doesn't call the woman = not interested.

Yes he has a entitled attitude for suggesting a 2nd date, ooooh its the end of the world. Again a girl "cutting" of contact is just an excuse for her bad and lousy behaviour of not wanting to own up to the decision she made to go out on a date. If a woman plans a business meeting with you, and the meeting goes poorly does she cut off contact with you forever? No, she will express a desire to not meet you or simply say not interested and thats the end of it. The comments about the man being a rapist are just more notions propped up by the feminist media. If a man approaches a woman it is either sexual harassment, creepy, or somehow wrong unless of course the woman wants it then it is ok.

If the man is beta yes he is likely to come off creepy. Alphas rarely appeared never come off as creepy in their dealings with women.

[Timoteo]

(12-08-2011 10:34 AM)Caligula Wrote:  

(12-08-2011 02:29 AM)misterstir Wrote:  

Western society has been conditioned to blame men for everything. Nothing in his email is inherently offesnive, crude, rude, or vile. He made a SUGGESTION, that they meet again, he did not demand it. In the case of a man it is obvious because if he doesn't call the woman = not interested.

Yes he has a entitled attitude for suggesting a 2nd date, ooooh its the end of the world. Again a girl "cutting" of contact is just an excuse for her bad and lousy behaviour of not wanting to own up to the decision she made to go out on a date. If a woman plans a business meeting with you, and the meeting goes poorly does she cut off contact with you forever? No, she will express a desire to not meet you or simply say not interested and thats the end of it. The comments about the man being a rapist are just more notions propped up by the feminist media. If a man approaches a woman it is either sexual harassment, creepy, or somehow wrong unless of course the woman wants it then it is ok.

If the man is beta yes he is likely to come off creepy. Alphas rarely appeared never come off as creepy in their dealings with women.

You're saying that because she made the decision to go out on a date with him, she OWES him a second one? By that thinking, if a man makes the decision to go out with a chick, and decides after the date he doesn't like her, he HAS to go out with her again, and that by arriving at the decision that he doesn't want to see her again, he must somehow acknowledge that going out with her in the first place was a poor decision? That makes little sense. By going out with someone you're attempting to learn more about this person to decide if you want to invest more time in them. Since when can't you make that decision after one date? And since when do you owe anyone an explanation for NOT wanting to see them again?

"Western society has been conditioned to blame men for everything. Nothing in his email is inherently offesnive, crude, rude, or vile."

Just because there is truth to this statement, it doesn't mean it really applies here. You're trying to say that any time a woman disappoints a man, she's somehow wrong. Just because his email wasn't profanity-laced doesn't make it appropriate. Just because men carry a lot of weight in this society doesn't make us always right in all interactions with women. It would be nice if people always gave beautifullly worded explanations to others for what we do or don't do, but I don't know a world where that's ever happened. No one OWES you anything. If you're going to attempt to correct "bad behavior" or put someone in their place every time they disappoint you, you'll be sending these types of emails several times a day. By doing this, he's not putting her in her place, or somehow correcting her behavior so it's better for the next guy. She shared this thing with all of her friends, and they had a good laugh. Just like it ended up here on this board, it'll be all over the place like that entitled "Craigslist" bitch that was soliciting for a rich dude to take care of her. How people interact in BUSINESS, and how people interact in their personal lives are two totally different issues. To attempt to compare them is a reach. In business, you may have the opportunity to work together later on a different matter, so you keep lines of communication open and remain amiable to each other. People that have dated/been in a relationship may remain friends after breaking up. But some people can't or won't remain friends. Once it's done, they want to cut off contact. Neither is more right or wrong than the other. And after one date? There is NO obligation to ever need to communicate with that person again. That may seem cold, but that's the reality.

[Caligula]

Quote:

"Western society has been conditioned to blame men for everything. Nothing in his email is inherently offesnive, crude, rude, or vile."

No it was just needy, boring, entitled and clueless.

Not everything needs to fit into a narrative of some big feminist conspiracy. This is just a guy with no game tripping up spectacularly.

[misterstir]

(12-08-2011 12:59 PM)Caligula Wrote:  

Quote:

"Western society has been conditioned to blame men for everything. Nothing in his email is inherently offesnive, crude, rude, or vile."

No it was just needy, boring, entitled and clueless.

Not everything needs to fit into a narrative of some big feminist conspiracy. This is just a guy with no game tripping up spectacularly.

It was needy and all that stuff but imagine if it was up to the girl to write the message, it would 10x worst.

[misterstir]

(12-08-2011 10:34 AM)Caligula Wrote:  

If the man is beta yes he is likely to come off creepy. Alphas rarely appeared never come off as creepy in their dealings with women.

Creepy is simply a word women use to describe men who engage in activities that they disapprove of. A poronographer like semours butts who sees thousands of naked women fuck, or a male porn star would be called creepy by a woman, simply because they do something they disapprove of.

[misterstir]

(12-08-2011 12:50 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

You're saying that because she made the decision to go out on a date with him, she OWES him a second one? By that thinking, if a man makes the decision to go out with a chick, and decides after the date he doesn't like her, he HAS to go out with her again, and that by arriving at the decision that he doesn't want to see her again, he must somehow acknowledge that going out with her in the first place was a poor decision? That makes little sense. By going out with someone you're attempting to learn more about this person to decide if you want to invest more time in them. Since when can't you make that decision after one date? And since when do you owe anyone an explanation for NOT wanting to see them again?

I'm not saying she owes him a 2nd date. I'm saying if you make the decision to go on a date with someone, you owe them the common decency and respect to tell them you are not interested in a 2nd date. A date as you say is about trying to learn more about the other person. Why is it that after the women makes up her mind the man is denied any information afterwards? You don't owe an explanation for not wanting to see them again, but a decent person would say I'm not interested in seeing you again on a date.

[/quote]
"Western society has been conditioned to blame men for everything. Nothing in his email is inherently offesnive, crude, rude, or vile."

Just because there is truth to this statement, it doesn't mean it really applies here. You're trying to say that any time a woman disappoints a man, she's somehow wrong. Just because his email wasn't profanity-laced doesn't make it appropriate. Just because men carry a lot of weight in this society doesn't make us always right in all interactions with women. It would be nice if people always gave beautifullly worded explanations to others for what we do or don't do, but I don't know a world where that's ever happened. No one OWES you anything. If you're going to attempt to correct "bad behavior" or put someone in their place every time they disappoint you, you'll be sending these types of emails several times a day.
[/quote]
No one owes you anything but people are suppose to have common decency. Sure you can slam doors in old people's face and run on elevators before the handicapped too.

[/quote]
By doing this, he's not putting her in her place, or somehow correcting her behavior so it's better for the next guy. She shared this thing with all of her friends, and they had a good laugh. Just like it ended up here on this board, it'll be all over the place like that entitled "Craigslist" bitch that was soliciting for a rich dude to take care of her. How people interact in BUSINESS, and how people interact in their personal lives are two totally different issues. To attempt to compare them is a reach. In business, you may have the opportunity to work together later on a different matter, so you keep lines of communication open and remain amiable to each other. People that have dated/been in a relationship may remain friends after breaking up. But some people can't or won't remain friends. Once it's done, they want to cut off contact. Neither is more right or wrong than the other. And after one date? There is NO obligation to ever need to communicate with that person again. That may seem cold, but that's the reality.
[/quote]
You never have an obligation to talk to anyone, but it is not about obligation, it is about treating others how you would like to be treated. No one likes to have their phone calls ignored, so why is it acceptable to treat others like shit but then turn around and complain if you are treated like shit. I'm surprised I have to argue this on a board where almost all of you have been given cold treatment from women at some point or another why treating people coldly or like subhumans is wrong.

In otherwords the essence of your argument is it ok to treat guys like shit as long as the guy isn't me. Because when I got rejected by some girls I was pissed off, but now it happens to some other guy it is funny as hell, good entertainment and he deserved it for the way he acted which was not really all that bad.

[Timoteo]

"In otherwords the essence of your argument is it ok to treat guys like shit as long as the guy isn't me. Because when I got rejected by some girls I was pissed off, but now it happens to some other guy it is funny as hell, good entertainment and he deserved it for the way he acted which was not really all that bad."

This is getting infantile now. That isn't the essence of my argument. If you read the post clearly, I reversed it. You're personalizing this to the extreme. I'm not laughing at this guy because he got rejected (and he isn't the first man to have a woman reject him. Yes, it's happened to me too. It isn't funny or serious. It just is.), but how he REACTED to being rejected. That's the problem. And NO...I don't believe she acted terribly. I've had women not return calls or messages. I MOVED ON. Didn't give it a second thought. You know why? Because I accept what it means when a woman doesn't call you back. And how many guys do you think went out with or FUCKED a chick and didn't call her again? I'm not looking at this from one side. The common courtesy argument is sweet, but again, when it comes to dating this is how it's ALWAYS been, but you're NOT OWED common courtesy either. If a person doesn't respond to your message, you have your answer. You shouldn't need it spelled out. You can use the "maybe something bad happened to them" argument, but you'll never know why they didn't reply. My position on that is I don't care why they didn't reply. If I leave a person a message and they don't respond, there won't be a second message. Would it be nice if she got back to me? Sure. Necessary? Nope. That's just me. I think both you and this guy place far more importance on this than it's really worth.

If you read the links to the "Date Lab" series in the Washington Post, where the paper sends couples out on dates and has them report back what they're impressions were, the guy almost always likes the chick more than they like them. They'll exchange numbers, and say sure, they'd like to get together again. And the guys never hear from them again. And the fact that they didn't get in touch again is published in the paper and on the internet. These guys survive it without complaining about courtesy. You're looking for a dating utopia that's NEVER existed. The honest truth is there are going to get far more nos than yeses, so you can't spend too much emotional energy on the nos. If you really think there's something to take away from the no, take it and KEEP GOING. Don't waste time going back and forth with a chick that doesn't want you.

[misterstir]

Your "moving on" was a coping strategy to bad female behaviour. You should have told her off and set her straight.

See I see it as part of a braoder dynamic. In practice yes I think much like you because it is an effective strategy. In principal though women should learn basic human decency and not be encouraged to make bad behaviour...

Why is it though that men always seem more interested in the woman than vice versa. Buts its funny, when a girl is usually really into a guy who normally doesn't care. I guess I answered my own question.

[ElJefe]

http://www.observer.com/2011/12/is-mike-...l-stalker/

HA! He did it again!

[Caligula]

(12-08-2011 06:48 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

http://www.observer.com/2011/12/is-mike-...l-stalker/

HA! He did it again!

That's the hardest I've seen anyone work to get into the friend zone.

Apart from this guy maybe:

[Roosh]

What's going on in this picture ^^^

[Caligula]

(12-08-2011 07:39 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

What's going on in this picture ^^^

Dude is holding up the laptop for her convenience while he gazes at her longingly.

Got it from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/m...level_100/