[stugatz]

I haven't dated in about 2 years, and recently began to do so again. Because of this (and my spotty confidence), friends have suggested I date women who aren't all that attractive so I can get my sealegs back. So, someone that's comfortably between a 5 and a 6 - not someone I would be ashamed to be seen with, but someone I might not be dating long term in my journey to better myself.

How do I go about this carefully, ESPECIALLY if it's in a social circle where I could end up getting a reputation? (I dated a woman from this same circle about two years ago just to give her a shot, and broke up with her about three weeks later in a very sloppy fashion. She's never quite gotten over it.)

[flyinghorse]

It's unethical if its for a relationship as you are using deception to meet your hedonistic needs at the sacrifice of another persons wellbeing.

As for having sex with not so good looking women - only 2 in my first 15 were good looking. I had low self esteem so I just went out with the girls who were fun to be around. After a while I realized i'm doing better than most men in most aspects of my life so I should aim higher (which worked out well)

[Leonard D Neubache]

"Dating"

That used to have pretty specific connotations 20 years ago. These days you're going to have to be a bit more specific.

Are you talking about a presumed monogamous relationship but you don't live with them? Because that's what dating used to be and in that context it would make sense that you'd feel a bit queasy about leading someone on without having any intention to follow through.

You're in America so currently "dating" may as well mean "person I've fucked more than once and may yet fuck again soon".

As a rule of thumb if you're talking about the kind of relationship where routine hugs and holding hands are expected then you are right to think that entering into that with no intentions to see it to it's natural conclusion is a shitty thing to do and a good way to stain your soul.

[stugatz]

Thank you for your candor.

Dating, as in, yes, we'll be monogamous until the relationship ends. I just don't know when it's become OK to use a woman for an ego boost on the way to dating your dream girl...YouTube pages like Coach Red Pill, and even bluepilled friends of mine have said "you just need a slumpbuster brah, date someone you're not too crazy about".

I have standards and know what my minimum is for dating. Should I just be a monk, then, and continue hitting the gym until I get there?

[Shinebox]

Here's a way to think about it. You're playing a game where you're trying to get as much sex as you can for as little resources as possible. Your resources are time, money, and commitment.

A girl will want to be in a relationship with you if she can see that this is a prize that seems slightly out of reach.

If you are worried about ethics of dating in 2019... Or in any year for that matter, your mental frame is whack.

[Crusader]

(04-06-2019 11:51 PM)stugatz Wrote:  

I haven't dated in about 2 years, and recently began to do so again. Because of this (and my spotty confidence), friends have suggested I date women who aren't all that attractive so I can get my sealegs back. So, someone that's comfortably between a 5 and a 6 - not someone I would be ashamed to be seen with, but someone I might not be dating long term in my journey to better myself.

How do I go about this carefully, ESPECIALLY if it's in a social circle where I could end up getting a reputation? (I dated a woman from this same circle about two years ago just to give her a shot, and broke up with her about three weeks later in a very sloppy fashion. She's never quite gotten over it.)

I don't think it's unethical. In the ages of push up bras and Instagram filters, girls are lying to men day and night. If you have some "friendly matches" before the actual "tournament", it should be fine.

[Leonard D Neubache]

I was under the impression that the problem these days is a glut of casual sex and virtually no takers for committed, monogamous relationships.

Definitely avoid starting a relationship (particularly via social game) just to act as a slump buster. It's bad juju and shitting where you eat besides.

Poor self confidence is poor self confidence regardless of what the reason is. Compromising your morals and your social circle just to get a boost is a gamble at best and self-defeating at worst. My opinion is that you need to focus on becoming the prize and if girls in your circle want to take a shot at locking you down after that then that's their gamble, not yours.

Work on putting yourself above the SMV of your peers and then throw out bait. If a girl puts out with little resistance after that then it's not on you to follow through with a relationship if you don't want to.

Do all the stuff that alters your blood chemistry to jack up your pheromones. Lifting. Eating and drinking clean food. Getting sunshine and all that good shit. Social game is herd game. You don't chase. You make yourself someone to be chased.

[Harem Scarem]

What, you're asking if it's unethical to carry on a monogamous relationship for a few weeks or months? I'm struggling to understand the question here.

It's not unethical in itself unless you're promising some kind of eternal love for her while cheating behind her back over a sustained period. This kind of serial monogamy is what people do these days, for better or worse. I don't suppose anyone really thinks that carousel-riding women intend to carry through every relationship they get into.

I feel deeply ambivalent about this because I believe this kind of thing to be harmful both for society and for the souls of the individuals in the long run, but I'm not going to wait for society to change just for little old me. One can either compromise, or adhere to higher standards and refuse to partake.

However, I have been in this boat as well, and I do think it's a double-edged sword that can wreak havoc on your self-esteem. So much compromise and duplicity ultimately stems from bad self-esteem and shitty scarcity mindset. Say you're dating someone in the 5-6 range and after a year, you're still not getting even the slightest look in at anything better. How quickly the compromise can then become a trap. To avoid that, better do as described above.

[Borges]

I think it's unethical to have a "practice girlfriend", which implies you're planning to break up with her from the start as soon as you run into someone better. It's not wrong to pump and dump these girls, but having a pretend LTR with them is a tad bit cruel IMO.

[questor70]

I really think both genders are inherently hypergamous. It's just that women tend to have more options to trade up than guys do, since women date up and guys date down. Guys just wish they could tradeup but can't.

The determining factor I use to know if I'm slumming or not is whether I can feel the stirrings of love. If I don't feel that coming on, then I'm slumming it. The other determining factor is how you'd feel about introducing her to family/friends. If she feels too far "below" you then you won't want to do that, even if you have a fun time with her otherwise. You can only carry on that sort of charade for so long before she'll pick up the fact that she's just a glorified FwB. And that's OK if the feelings are mutual but when she is investing more than you then you need to pull the ripcord.

[Harem Scarem]

I just realised OP has made essentially the same thread before. That's fine, if the question is still current, but at some point there's not much left to add until you try it. I wonder if there's anything anyone can say to make you determine whether this is "OK" or not. Years have passed in the interim; what have you tried in that period?

We can talk about it all day but in the end we're not talking about anything concrete. It's nothing but a hypothetical at this point. It would be concrete to say: "I've been in a bit of a slump, but I have this, this, and this prospect in my social circle who all seem DTF based on [IoIs, flirting, whatever], but they're all rather plain and I don't want to burn bridges with friends. What do?" Without that we can only do thought exercises. I might ask "Is it always wrong to bang a girl from my work, or are there exceptions?" when no girl at my workplace even looks at me. In that case, who cares?

Now suppose that, regardless of what standards I might normally have, I resolve to go for a mini relationship with a plain Jane to get out of a bad slump. Now how will I feel if I fail even at that? If I could make a consistent and linear progression from periods of involuntary celibacy, to banging 6s, to banging 8s and better, men would line up to buy books from me and attend seminars by me. But I can't, so they don't. I can improve myself, and that would hopefully lead to me getting better prospects and results. I would be banging more and better over time, on average. But I can't force an outcome. So for the moment we're just pondering the ethics of something that's not actually happening right now.

To paraphrase an old copypasta, options are everything and everything is an option. Options are manifold and complex, but the consequences of the choices I make are either positive or negative, or somewhere in-between. Supposing you could get your rocks off with some girl you know through friends but whom you don't have any long-term plans for, again the question is not if "it" is ethical in itself, but what's actually happening. What do you do with this girl, what do you tell her, what do you lead her to believe? Will this allow you to look at your reflection in the mirror afterwards?

[stugatz]

(04-07-2019 01:05 PM)wwsd Wrote:  

I just realised OP has made essentially the same thread before.

You got me, although I admit some circumstances have changed. Then I just wanted to fuck someone - now, I'm trying to build myself up in a social circle where I know I'd get eaten alive by the prettier women if I made a move. (This has at least gotten me back in the gym full time when nothing motivated me before.)

After a two-year dry spell, I was briefly in a relationship in 2017 - that was enough of a "slump buster" to prove that women were still attracted to me, but I wasn't quite sure how to go about it.

[RatInTheWoods]

Don't mess with people's hearts mate, you know thats fucking wrong.

Treat people with kindness, respect and integrity.

[MaceTyrell]

There’a no way that women don’t see certain guys this way!

Do it dude. Be an “alpha widower.”

I myself am thinking of finding a 6 I don’t mind for an “LTR” while my logistics are shit.

[PeanutoftheNight]

Depends how you frame it. If she is your own exclusive, monogamous girlfriend, and you enter with the intention of never entertaining the logical end of 'courtship' then it is unethical.

But if you want to practice dating with a practice girl, go ahead through all the motions, act to your own mind as though you are dating, fuck her ASAP, but never confirm relationship. Stay distant. Reject labels of 'boy/girlfriend' if she applies them, ignore attempts to secure commitment. Plenty of girls will provide sexually in this way without first securing commitment of 'courtship'. Look how many men live lives as married men without getting married; the woman acts as though she were a wife with all the obligations, and he too, but she fails to make him commit to her. Do the same.

If you commit to where she is your girlfriend, unless you're in high school it is courtship, and you're a p.o.s if you use her as your short-term cum receptacle. But if you reject the commitment and she plays along, its her fault, not yours, since you have made no obligation to her.

[Harem Scarem]

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think that straight-up deception or manipulation is almost always unnecessary in this kind of scenario. It can be weeks or months before the subject of commitment even comes up. Then why not just say directly that this is never going to evolve into an "Easter brunch with the in-laws" kind of thing?

She can deal with that in the same way we all deal with shit beyond our control. She may not like it but after a lot of thrashing and screaming, she may or may not accept it, but she may override any doubts and concerns because you give her the tingles. Then instead of a phoney relationship, you might get a real friends with benefits scenario that you don't have to lie about to yourself or anyone else, and you'll be able to look at yourself in the mirror.

Now from the social circle angle it's more complicated because it may either introduce drama into a group of friends, or exacerbate it. If nobody cares about who bangs who, great. But if the situation with these friends is such that doing this will basically make me a bottom-feeding leech type in that group, then again the question is if mediocre pussy is worth burning bridges over. The question is: do I really need to do this to get pussy? I think most people will be able to make that determination for themselves.

Again, it's all hypotheticals, all options. The world is replete with options and possible scenarios that we can belabour forever and we still can't really tell for certain what will happen. But the effects of our choices and compromises, whether social consequences or effects on our own self-esteem, can be known. Does what I do come from a place of honesty and abundance, or from duplicity and scarcity? Will it make me a bigger or a smaller person, in my own self-esteem or in the estimation of others?

[elRey]

Do whatever the fuck you want.

Stop asking for permission.

[No More Mr. Soy Boy]

It is possible to make a woman be thankful that she met and got to experience you while still breaking her heart, even worse so.

I think it was the 40's actress Zsa Zsa Gabor who said that said that Porfirio Rubirosa was the true love of her life even though she was married to other men after him and that he probably beat her up and cheated. Ironically most women seem to love you more for just being selfish.

[questor70]

Women love to frame themselves as victims but it's just not the 1950s anymore and there is no implicit contract to go steady or marry someone because of sex. In today's anything-goes culture it's not a source of shame to have a fling or to only be interested in casual sex by design. If women want to reserve the right to ride the carousel without judgment then men damn well better not be judged for it since that's their default biological imperative. The primary responsibility is hers and she must be constantly reminded of this if she starts trying to play hot-potato with sexual regret. If you never make a promise you can't keep, you're not really hurting anyone. So be extra careful what you said to get through each shit-test as women have photographic memories of past conversations. If they don't have anything verbal to use as ammo they may fall back on wishy washy stuff like "but you kissed me like you loved me" and all that. You can't really argue betrayal over something that vague.

[cruzinV]

(04-06-2019 11:51 PM)stugatz Wrote:  

I haven't dated in about 2 years, and recently began to do so again. Because of this (and my spotty confidence), friends have suggested I date women who aren't all that attractive so I can get my sealegs back. So, someone that's comfortably between a 5 and a 6 - not someone I would be ashamed to be seen with, but someone I might not be dating long term in my journey to better myself.

How do I go about this carefully, ESPECIALLY if it's in a social circle where I could end up getting a reputation? (I dated a woman from this same circle about two years ago just to give her a shot, and broke up with her about three weeks later in a very sloppy fashion. She's never quite gotten over it.)

The joke might be on you man, pretty much all the married guys i know ended up marrying their "starter girlfriends".

[Wayne Star]

Better yet, don't saddle any of your interactions with women with a lot of goals and expectations beyond having a good time. It's a recipe for disappointment.
Enjoy women for what they can do for you. Once they become a drag in any way, next them. Always keep looking for another. You are more attractive to women when you are fucking another one. It's kind of magical, don't ask why.

[Rocha]

"All is fair in love and war"

[Zoso]

Well, i dont say its ok but it happens all the time.

[Fuck This]

Slump busters are one night stands. To remind your self you can still attract and lay women.

After a couple of those you can afford to be a little more choosy.

Most women are wary about being the "Rebound Relationship" anyway.

I'd never promise monogamy to any woman I hadn't slept with on multiple occasions.

[kaotic]

Lots of male hamsters and paper alpha tigers on this thread.

There's no such thing as a starter girlfriend.

You're putting the cart before the horse- you gotta go out and fuck a few girls first.

If they're of mediocre status - then yeah they're slump busters to get you out of a dry spell.

If you haven't banged or plated a few girls, you won't fare well at all in a "starter relationship".


If you're trying to bang mediocre girls in your social circle (mediocre compared to the ones in your circle) or bring mediocre girls into your social circle, I would be 100% against that.

In a social circle setting you want to be seeing with only the hottest girls, not something mediocre or below your worth.

Remember girls are always sizing themselves up to a girl you bring around and think "how did he get such a pretty girl?", they'll want to know what you got to offer.


My advice is bang a few girls outside of your social, keep it as a fuck buddy/friends with benefits situation, with the occasional night out for a drink. There's plenty of girls who are down for that.

Once you get your rythm going and your game is sharpend, start aiming for higher quality (guys should be doing this to being with).

Once you find a cool and attractive girl that you think you'd like to lock down, then go ahead.


Locking down a girl you already are going to dump is weak, pointless, and suck the fun out of the hunt.


Fuck This has it right - have some one night stands, maybe spin a few plates, and never promise any girl monogamy that you aren't really interested.

Don't waste anyone's time, especially yours.