[Andreas]

If you were young kids like me and knew all these types of martial arts would you still go for boxing?
Persinally, I dont care about the ring, cage fights whatever they do these days because i dont want to compete.
I care about the whole lifestyle. How would you grow while boxing from young age and what kind of people do you meet?

[Moma]

(10-12-2011 11:29 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

OGNorCal707 -

I agree with you (save the "fixed" part, why would they "fix" a fight in favor of a boxer in an MMA fight? That would only hurt MMA's credibility. Plus Mercer uncorked a perfect right on Silvia's chin.), I was more responding to the above comment: "Mixed martial arts alway trump boxing in terms of real fighting."

And mainly the "always" part of that statement.

There is no "always" in fighting.

I also disagree gracefully with the G. I LOVE boxing and the grit you develop with it as well as the discipline but logically, a fighting art where you only focus on using the upper limbs is by virtue, limited to another where you can use anything to get it done.

A true martial art (observe the word martial means war) would involves everything a human has to take down another human.

One might start off with kicks to their opponents soft tissue. This is the same as a jab in boxing. It would be stupid for an opponent who has long legs and can keep annoying their opponent with painful kicks not to take advantage.

The boxer barrows through the kicks somehow and closes in for preferred body shots. Fine, however, he is at a disadvantage by attacking as he is forced to make a move as to move out of the range of the guy who is skilled with delivering those painful long range kicks.

He may and should be at the disadvantage to suffer some kind of nasty counter move if he is fighting against an EQUALLY skilled martial artist.

What says thou, G?

[thegmanifesto]

(10-13-2011 09:23 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(10-12-2011 11:29 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

OGNorCal707 -

I agree with you (save the "fixed" part, why would they "fix" a fight in favor of a boxer in an MMA fight? That would only hurt MMA's credibility. Plus Mercer uncorked a perfect right on Silvia's chin.), I was more responding to the above comment: "Mixed martial arts alway trump boxing in terms of real fighting."

And mainly the "always" part of that statement.

There is no "always" in fighting.

I also disagree gracefully with the G. I LOVE boxing and the grit you develop with it as well as the discipline but logically, a fighting art where you only focus on using the upper limbs is by virtue, limited to another where you can use anything to get it done.

A true martial art (observe the word martial means war) would involves everything a human has to take down another human.

One might start off with kicks to their opponents soft tissue. This is the same as a jab in boxing. It would be stupid for an opponent who has long legs and can keep annoying their opponent with painful kicks not to take advantage.

The boxer barrows through the kicks somehow and closes in for preferred body shots. Fine, however, he is at a disadvantage by attacking as he is forced to make a move as to move out of the range of the guy who is skilled with delivering those painful long range kicks.

He may and should be at the disadvantage to suffer some kind of nasty counter move if he is fighting against an EQUALLY skilled martial artist.

What says thou, G?

[Moma]

(10-13-2011 10:12 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(10-13-2011 09:23 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(10-12-2011 11:29 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

OGNorCal707 -

I agree with you (save the "fixed" part, why would they "fix" a fight in favor of a boxer in an MMA fight? That would only hurt MMA's credibility. Plus Mercer uncorked a perfect right on Silvia's chin.), I was more responding to the above comment: "Mixed martial arts alway trump boxing in terms of real fighting."

And mainly the "always" part of that statement.

There is no "always" in fighting.

I also disagree gracefully with the G. I LOVE boxing and the grit you develop with it as well as the discipline but logically, a fighting art where you only focus on using the upper limbs is by virtue, limited to another where you can use anything to get it done.

A true martial art (observe the word martial means war) would involves everything a human has to take down another human.

One might start off with kicks to their opponents soft tissue. This is the same as a jab in boxing. It would be stupid for an opponent who has long legs and can keep annoying their opponent with painful kicks not to take advantage.

The boxer barrows through the kicks somehow and closes in for preferred body shots. Fine, however, he is at a disadvantage by attacking as he is forced to make a move as to move out of the range of the guy who is skilled with delivering those painful long range kicks.

He may and should be at the disadvantage to suffer some kind of nasty counter move if he is fighting against an EQUALLY skilled martial artist.

What says thou, G?

G, correct me if I am wrong and with all due respect, I am a rookie out there. I have not observed many fights amongst differently trained professionals. Logically, it seems that someone who is trained to use their fists mixed with kicks will win.

That video you posted of those two fat guys means absolutely nothing.

Many Boxer vs Kickboxer fights have shown, a boxer can't use his flurry of punches, if he can't get close to the kickboxer, who will keep him at range with his kicks to the groin, knees and legs.

"A famous fight between Muhammed Ali and a Japanese martial artisit, attested to this, where Ali was unable to land one single punch, but the Japanese martial artist caused massive damage to Ali's legs."

As I said, I am a huge fan of boxing but let's be rational here. Let's disconnect personal bias from this.

[Dash Global]

You have it ALL in MMA. Good boxers/strikers. Good grappling guys. Good submission guys ect.

Im almost certain boxing will go extinct (decrease substantially in popularity). Almost ALL the young people today watch MMA. Once the last bit off old people die off you will be left with all the guys that grew up watching MMA.

Boxing right now has only ONE big ticket fight, and that fight might not ever happen.

MMA on the other hand is turning out big tickets every 3-4 months.

Anderson Silva is a great striker

[Gmac]

Personally, I think boxing is a far more primal, manly sport.

Who cares what works best in a given situation? You'll only end up theory-crafting forever. Are you training just so you can go pick fights? If so, you're in it for the wrong reasons.

That aside, I stopped worrying about the entertainment value of things a long time ago. Jersey Shore and American Idol are popular, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in watching them.

[thegmanifesto]

(10-13-2011 10:44 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(10-13-2011 10:12 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(10-13-2011 09:23 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(10-12-2011 11:29 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

OGNorCal707 -

I agree with you (save the "fixed" part, why would they "fix" a fight in favor of a boxer in an MMA fight? That would only hurt MMA's credibility. Plus Mercer uncorked a perfect right on Silvia's chin.), I was more responding to the above comment: "Mixed martial arts alway trump boxing in terms of real fighting."

And mainly the "always" part of that statement.

There is no "always" in fighting.

I also disagree gracefully with the G. I LOVE boxing and the grit you develop with it as well as the discipline but logically, a fighting art where you only focus on using the upper limbs is by virtue, limited to another where you can use anything to get it done.

A true martial art (observe the word martial means war) would involves everything a human has to take down another human.

One might start off with kicks to their opponents soft tissue. This is the same as a jab in boxing. It would be stupid for an opponent who has long legs and can keep annoying their opponent with painful kicks not to take advantage.

The boxer barrows through the kicks somehow and closes in for preferred body shots. Fine, however, he is at a disadvantage by attacking as he is forced to make a move as to move out of the range of the guy who is skilled with delivering those painful long range kicks.

He may and should be at the disadvantage to suffer some kind of nasty counter move if he is fighting against an EQUALLY skilled martial artist.

What says thou, G?

G, correct me if I am wrong and with all due respect, I am a rookie out there. I have not observed many fights amongst differently trained professionals. Logically, it seems that someone who is trained to use their fists mixed with kicks will win.

That video you posted of those two fat guys means absolutely nothing.

Many Boxer vs Kickboxer fights have shown, a boxer can't use his flurry of punches, if he can't get close to the kickboxer, who will keep him at range with his kicks to the groin, knees and legs.

"A famous fight between Muhammed Ali and a Japanese martial artisit, attested to this, where Ali was unable to land one single punch, but the Japanese martial artist caused massive damage to Ali's legs."

As I said, I am a huge fan of boxing but let's be rational here. Let's disconnect personal bias from this.

We are getting way off base here, I never said Boxing is better than MMA.

I was responding to a comment at the beginning when someone said MMA is always better than boxing, which is false on many levels.

Side note:

That fight between Ali and Inoki you mentioned was ruled a draw.

(10-13-2011 10:45 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

You have it ALL in MMA. Good boxers/strikers. Good grappling guys. Good submission guys ect.

Im almost certain boxing will go extinct (decrease substantially in popularity). Almost ALL the young people today watch MMA. Once the last bit off old people die off you will be left with all the guys that grew up watching MMA.

Boxing right now has only ONE big ticket fight, and that fight might not ever happen.

MMA on the other hand is turning out big tickets every 3-4 months.

Anderson Silva is a great striker

They will both co-exist.

To my knowledge boxing generates a lot more money still than MMA.

[Dash Global]

Technically speaking MMA IS boxing.

Along with every other fighting style.

So by logic MMA is better than boxing.

One part is never greater than the sum/whole.

[Moma]

(10-13-2011 11:00 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Side note:

That fight between Ali and Inoki you mentioned was ruled a draw.

Do you agree with that draw? A draw where, correct me if I am wrong, one opponent suffered damages to their body where as the other one was untouched? Where does the draw come out from that?

I agree that a boxer who adds grappling/wrestling and kicking to his repetoire, thus becoming a MMA if one wishes to coin that art form, will ALWAYS be more effective than a man who solely focuses on being a boxer.

Of course, flukes will happen.

An armed 30 year old trained in killing for 15 years can be killed by an unarmed 15 year old. But my money is generally going to be on the armed trained 30 year old.

I trust you see where I am coming from?

[Basil Ransom]

(10-13-2011 10:44 AM)Moma Wrote:  

That video you posted of those two fat guys means absolutely nothing.

It's fighting match, not a bodybuilding competition. You don't need six pack abs to win. That white "fat guy" is a former UFC heavyweight champion. That black "fat guy" is also a former heavyweight champion, not to mention an Olympic gold medalist. And this guy was widely considered the baddest man on the planet for several years:



You sound foolish making such ridiculous statements, like the one above and that boxing is not a true martial art.

You guys criticizing boxing - it's like you're calling an Olympic gold medalist lifter weak because he can't bench press 500 lbs. Or calling a top marathoner slow because he can't out-sprint Usain Bolt. Have you gotten over the Batman vs Superman debate yet? You just aren't going to win at sports at which you don't train (usually).

MMA is appealing because it's a complete system and incorporates everything. But unless you're going to start fighting, that's pretty irrelevant. Choose the sport that satisfies you most.

For me, that's boxing. Grappling doesn't seem all that satisfying. Muay Thai is appealing, but there's already so much to master in Western boxing that throwing knees, kicks and elbows into the mix seems like a bad idea. Footwork alone in boxing is huge, and requires lots of training to achieve proficiency, even though you're not striking with your feet. And I just like using my fists more.

[Giovonny]

Some like boxing, some like MMA. They are both great training for fitness and confidence building.

In terms of who would win between a boxer and an MMA guy, it just depends on who is fighting. A highly skilled boxer who is a great athlete would proably beat an MMA guy with average skills and athleticism. On the other hand, a a highly skilled MMA guy would proabbly beat an average boxer. Personally, I think the more skills you can master, the better. I always wanted to see Mike Tyson vs Bruce Lee. Size matters, weight class matters. I also would like to see George St. Pierre vs Shaq, thats the kind of shit I think about. It doesn't really matter though. Just do what you like and watch what you like.

In terms of survival and actually fighting for you life...

(10-12-2011 03:20 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

On the street, it's the killer who is going to win.

Thats all that matters. The guy who has been through many wars and battles will have a huge advantage over the corporate 9-5 guy who had been taking BJJ "classes" for a few years. Once that fight is on, its about survival, its almost animalistic. the "killer" can sense weakness, just by looking in your eyes and at your body language. The suburban "boxer-cise guy" has never fought for his life, or fought for food. He has only trained in a gym.

I have a freind who grew up in the jungles of Colombia. He used to kill animals to eat. His family has killed a few people who tried to kill them. He is literally a "killer". He has no formal boxing or MMA training. Fighting this guy would be like fighting a wild animal. You can't get that kind of training in an MMA or boxing class. This guy makes guys from the hood look soft, and compared to him, they are.

I have another friend who went to prison. Before prison he was taking some bullshit boxing classes at the local gym. He thought he was a pretty good fighter. And, in the safe environment of the boxing gym, he was. I asked him about the guys in prison. He said they have no formal training but they destroy guys who have "black belts" from some bullshit karate studio. These guys are wild animals. They exist to hurt people. They have no job, no family, no purpose, other then hand to hand warfare.

He has seen guys get pieces of their faces biten off and guys get their dicks cut off with a razor blades.

You could train for 10 years, taking classes, hitting bags, shadow boxing, learning footwork, watching tapes, dieting, and lifting weights. But, if you ever come across a real killer, he will smell the fear coming off of your body. He will see the fear in your eyes. Will your training and practice hold up then? Will you be able to execute your moves in a real world setting with your life on the line? You better have the skills of a guy like GSP or Anderson Silva, otherwise you will be shitting your pants and crying for your mommy as this guy puts your brains on the sidewalk. Better to have a gun.

(10-13-2011 09:23 AM)Moma Wrote:  

A true martial art (observe the word martial means war) involves everything a human has to take down another human.

[Moma]

(10-13-2011 11:30 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

(10-13-2011 10:44 AM)Moma Wrote:  

That video you posted of those two fat guys means absolutely nothing.

It's fighting match, not a bodybuilding competition. You don't need six pack abs to win. That white "fat guy" is a former UFC heavyweight champion. That black "fat guy" is also a former heavyweight champion, not to mention an Olympic gold medalist. And this guy was widely considered the baddest man on the planet for several years:



You sound foolish making such ridiculous statements, like the one above and that boxing is not a true martial art.

You guys criticizing boxing - it's like you're calling an Olympic gold medalist lifter weak because he can't bench press 500 lbs. Or calling a top marathoner slow because he can't out-sprint Usain Bolt. Have you gotten over the Batman vs Superman debate yet? You just aren't going to win at sports at which you don't train (usually).

MMA is appealing because it's a complete system and incorporates everything. But unless you're going to start fighting, that's pretty irrelevant. Choose the sport that satisfies you most.

For me, that's boxing. Grappling doesn't seem all that satisfying. Muay Thai is appealing, but there's already so much to master in Western boxing that throwing knees, kicks and elbows into the mix seems like a bad idea. Footwork alone in boxing is huge, and requires lots of training to achieve proficiency, even though you're not striking with your feet. And I just like using my fists more.

I stand by all my statements. I still think the video posted up with two has no bearing in lending any understanding as to why boxing is better than an "MMA".

When I speak of MMA, I am not talking about the televised event specifically.

I speak more of the concept of being able to use all your body parts to win in a fight. The understanding of options available of when one is grounded and exploiting advantages i.e. if you have long legs using them against someone is who is a savage puncher.

Giovonny: I know the seasoned killer will most likely win. At the end of the day, instinct kicks in. But since we cannot and should not immerse ourselves in Columbian forests to kill animals in order to hone our edge in streetfights, the best we can do is simulate this by practicing a martial art in the gym.

So I stand by my statement that a seasoned MMA artist has more advantage than a boxer. I proved that with the extract of the match between one of the greatest boxers that this planet has ever known getting his legs kicked the fcuk out of by a Japanese martial artist. Subsequently, this legendary boxer was unable to even land one of his blows on him. It just makes perfect logical sense as to how that would happen.

Again, I ask you to remove your emotional bias from the art forms and apply logic.

I already told you that I love boxing. My only deterrent is that I don't want to get my beak cracked.

I have done boxing training with a small Latin guy. We sparred gently (I am not a professional). I realise the power and conditioning behind a boxer. I HAVE TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE RESPECT FOR THE ART FORM OF PUGILISM.

But logically, the man with the more options is the man to put the money on.

[MikeCF]

(10-13-2011 07:07 AM)Andreas Wrote:  

If you were young kids like me and knew all these types of martial arts would you still go for boxing?
Persinally, I dont care about the ring, cage fights whatever they do these days because i dont want to compete.
I care about the whole lifestyle. How would you grow while boxing from young age and what kind of people do you meet?

If you are in high school, wrestle. It will toughen you up, and it's free, personalized coaching.

[MikeCF]

Curious: How many guys arguing this stuff have ever fought in a ring or cage or been in substantial street fights?

I'm guessing that NONE of the guys trashing boxing have ever been in actual fighting situations. And I'll bet every guy who has scraped gives boxing mad props, and thinks this debate is stupid.

There's probably a message in there.

[UrbanNerd]

I don't think boxing is underrated. Both boxing and MMA can co-exist. I will say that MMA benefited (in popularity) due to how boxing was managed. In MMA, there is a HIGH probability that the 2 best fighters in a weight class will meet. In boxing, the number of governing bodies (WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO, etc) along with promoters protecting fighters allows for more top fighters to "duck" one another and still make money. That is what has hurt boxing.

Gone are the days when Hearns, Leonard, Duran, Hagler and Benitez would fight each other.

Why am I mentioning this?...because it led to boxing becoming less popular thus less guys taking up the sport.

[Malcolm Tucker]

Styles don't fight: people do.

I'd suggest reading everything Rory Miller's written (esp. "Meditations on Violence") along with "The Little Black Book of Violence" if you want to really open your mind about the realities of non-sport violence, that is if you're the type of person who learns from others' mistakes. Or just start going to the stupid places where stupid people do stupid things if you're not. Sooner or later you'll get some learnin' either way.

Violence fucking sucks. But IMHO anyone who underestimates the sweet science IRL does so at his peril.

(10-12-2011 03:04 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Who wins in a street fight, Floyd Mayweather or George St-Piere?

My moneys on GSP.

By decision?

My cash is on whoever ambushes first or whoever has the knife, pistol, pool cue, pool ball, friends to help in the fun, gets the drop on whoever's taking a piss by attacking from behind at the urinal, etc. etc. etc. But like you said there are no alwayses (?) in this shit.

[Pilgrim37]

MMA etc just has nothing on a great boxing match like this:

[subutai]

Anderson Da Silva, MMA Champ, boxing one of Freddie Roach's boxers at his boxing gym. I know that Da Silva is a much better athlete than this anonymous boxer, so it makes the comparison unfair, but had Da Silva been able to use kicks, knees, and elbows, the boxer would have been on the floor unconscious in under a minute.

[OGNorCal707]

Krav Maga is widely considered the most lethal form of martial arts and best for street survival situations.

If I remember correctly I believe Speakeasy said he's trained in it for some years. If I continue with my martial arts training in the future, and move to a big city, I think I may try to learn Krav Maga, after I develop some basic mastery of Wing Chun Kung Fu and Muay Thai, the two I am starting to learn.

Krav Maga is also known for intense workouts and sparring, here is a clip of a "demonstration". Although it's not an actual fight you can see how these techniques would be more affective than the clip MikeCF provided us.

[MikeCF]

That video is hilarious. NO resistance. That's fake martial arts.

Also, who considers Krav Magna the most dangerous martial art? The guys who SELL classes, and the people who BUY those classes.

If I could only train one martial art, it'd be Combat Sambo. Indeed, that is what I trained, among other things in my two decades of training and fighting.

MMA, too, is what I'd train if I could only train one thing. Thankfully life allows a person to not have to choose just one thing.[/quote]

But that wasn't the point of the conversation. Issue was that chumps are dissing boxing without having a club.

Combat Sambo highlight:

[OGNorCal707]

MikeCF I appreciate what you're saying, I am not expert, so I can't definitively say that Krav Maga is one of the most affective fighting system, and I have heard a lot of good stuff about combat Sambo.

However, as far as the vid clip I posted vs. the one you posted, I think your clip is equally as "hilarious", for one it looked fake, for two neither guy is fighting back at all. At least in the one I posted, it gives you some "self defense scenarios".

In closing, I agree that boxing is under-rated, and there is no one definitive best form of self defense.

However, the best defense is not getting into a fight in the first place, in my opinion anyone who escalates a fight over pointless bullshit, is just trying to prove something or satisfy their own ego.

[Dash Global]

(10-14-2011 03:00 PM)Pilgrim37 Wrote:  

MMA etc just has nothing on a great boxing match like this:

That is pretty boring & tame to me. Looks like they are just crying on each others shoulder and delivering love taps to the body for 80% of the fight.

I want to see mother fuckers go at it HARD. I want to see brutal punches that leave people on their ass / knocked out.

One of the most entertaining dudes with absolute LETHAL HANDS is Fedor.

Dudes hands are so fast, powerful and he delivers his punches with crazy accuracy.

I will say this though. There is / was some entertaining boxers. Not many exist that are at the top of the game today.

One of my favorite boxers that could put on a show and drop dudes was Roy Jones Jr.

[subutai]

Either Fedor is past his prime or he was coddled to begin with. His last couple of losses made him look pretty bad.

[Dash Global]

Subutai,

I think it is a few things.

He is past his prime. Dude pretty much went undefeated for his career. Now his age is catching up with him.

It's sad that Dana wouldn't ease up on the contract restrictions so we could have seen fedor in the UFC. But I respect him for saying fuck you Dana.

[Dash Global]

Ok, i just looked to confirm what I thought in regards to the length of time Fedor was doing his thing.

Fedor went undefeated and dominated the competition for a [b]decade[] That's astonishing.