[Delta]

Even when a girl is interested enough to give me the time of day, it's still clear that she couldn't care less. I cannot reliably make something wonderful happen with a girl when they almost never have any motivation or urgency to meet me in the middle.

Now the solution would seem simple; "self-improve until you're high-value," if not for the fact that I already have about as much as I'm capable of. I lift and play sports routinely, and while you wouldn't mistake me for a body-builder, my physique could easily pass for that of a high level athlete. I make six figures and girls could easily guess that if they looked up what I do for a living. I'm not an acne-ridden neckbeard, I groom and dress in a way that looks put together. I socialize regularly. I'm not on the spectrum. I've read (and put into practice) way too much game material. I do not know what more I could do in terms of value maxing.

It's not that I can't manage to pull a girl's number at a bar or get some matches online, it's that 20 Hinge matches don't do much good when 8 of them never respond, 10 of them give nothing but terse and disinterested responses, 1 agrees to a date then gets "sick" the day of, and 1 comes out to grab a drink, sits there with her legs crossed away from me, and acts completely apathetic. In fact it's not that they don't to much good, it's that these huge numbers of cold leads actively harm me by wasting a ton of my time. In this example, I'll spend time and energy thinking of engaging, conversation building, game savvy messages to write to all 20 matches, and even spend an entire evening with one, all for 0 return on investment... and this is the MOST efficient way I've found. Night game is far more of a hellish timesuck and day game is essentially impossible where I live.

I always have at least a few leads in my phone, that's hardly an issue, but ~95% of them make things as difficult on me as possible with their passive/lackadaisical attitudes, and as for the other ~5% who seem enthusiastic, I can always rest assured they'll go cold at some completely random time. I can't tell you how many times I've performed well on a 1st/2nd date, escalated to a makeout, had the girl enthusiastically texting me afterward, only for her to be perpetually "busy" in the coming weeks. (I have neither the logistics nor the desire to pursue SNLs with sluts.)

I'm not being limited by the number of girls I can garner some semblance of interest from; I'm limited, severely, by the amount of time and energy I can spend sorting through the haystack of dispassionate time-wasters to find the worthwhile needle that may be hiding in there somewhere. And I have no idea what I can do to improve the situation.

Is this normal?

[Philosopher]

Why is daygame impossible? No coffee shops or malls within 2 hours?

[yang2287]

(03-24-2019 02:24 PM)Delta Wrote:  

I always have at least a few leads in my phone, that's hardly an issue, but ~95% of them make things as difficult on me as possible with their passive/lackadaisical attitudes, and as for the other ~5% who seem enthusiastic, I can always rest assured they'll go cold at some completely random time. I can't tell you how many times I've performed well on a 1st/2nd date, escalated to a makeout, had the girl enthusiastically texting me afterward, only for her to be perpetually "busy" in the coming weeks. (I have neither the logistics nor the desire to pursue SNLs with sluts.)


Is this normal?

Could this be the issue? As far as i can tell I've never succeeded with a girl i didn't lay the same day or same night.

The flaking epidemic is real and should continue, an American just flaked on me this afternoon in Paris, last week it was a French-Algerienne. And then if you imagine the sheer numbers needed to filter the chaff and funnel from Online to get to a date

Basically these girls expect to have sex if they come out on a date and if she doesn't expect to be banged, then she is just another time-waster. Why would you give 2 hours of your time to a time waster.

Dating is the new cock-block, i think you should push for ZDB and if all else fails and she insists on the date, you should expect to f*** her after the date. I also think the dating fatigue is real, so many of these girls have gone on sooooooo manyyy dates, your offer is just gonna be another date offer, they get tons of this.

From what i have been dealing with, the dating now happens over SMS, thats how cowardly these girls have become, and when she does agree to meet you in person, you should make the bang happen same day or same night. Focus on the lay not the date (attraction, seduction logistics etc)

Think ZDB or get your logistics right. At least an Airbnb in a good location for first and second bang and then subsequently change up the story (I moved to the suburbs) if you want her in your harem

[Captain Gh]

I think you might have gotten caught up in the lifestyle ENHANCEMENT of Game... and forgot the basics for creating attraction. How many of these girl would've showed up if you had a bit less status?

You're currently looking for outside locus of control... so you' re therefore not ethoroughly evaluating your Game. From my outsider's view... you seem to not be creating playful rapport whatsoever with these Girl... and if you ain't doing that Online... or look like a legitimate 10... then Good Luck!

No matter how much you have it together... there's 20 "Other You's in her Inbox... MINIMUM! To stand out... Good Ol Game complex must be Done. If you're willing to put in the time... barely 2 months of Daygame, or NightGame if you got a crew, would be sufficient to radically improve.

[kinjutsu]

Are you interesting?
Why would a girl want to spend time with you? Sex of even a coffee date.

Game is sales.
If the girl isn't interested in what you're selling then your product needs to change OR you need to find a different demographic to sell to.

[Ouroboros]

Have you tried social circle game?

By 'social circle' I mean any kind of warm approach, where you build some comfort through commonalities (e.g. mutual friends, volunteering, hobbies etc) and then invite her out somewhere or otherwise isolate her.

Some places are just shit for cold approach (I live in one such place ).

[scorpion]

Traditional night game is dead. Girls simply don't go out to bars/clubs with the hope of meeting a random guy these days. They go out to take pictures with their friends so they can compete with other girls for social media likes. Dating apps are dead. They exist as nothing more than validation mechanisms for average and below average-looking women. Yes, there are exceptions to these generalizations - but the point stands. Your ROI for nightgame and dating apps is much, much lower than in the past. And quality is also way down. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Game has shifted heavily towards social circle and Instagram/Snapchat. I group the two together because they are increasingly inseparable. A confident approach, good looks and engaging conversation are no longer enough to pique the interest of most quality girls these days. They want a man who can demonstrate value and pre-selection through his Instagram/Snapchat. It's as if they simply no longer trust themselves to judge a man's value without seeing his social media. An air of mystery used to be a good thing, but the current generation of young women is so addled by social media that they literally can't make decisions without it.

Women are hardwired to seek out high status men. We know this, and shouldn't get butthurt about it. It is what it is - women wants a high status man like men want an attractive woman. And Instagram/Snapchat, intelligently used, are essentially nothing more than personal advertisements of your social status. This is why they're so intoxicating to women. It's the ultimate shortcut/cheat sheet for them when it comes to assessing a man's value. It lays a man's social status bare for her to judge instantly. Could you imagine an app that somehow let a man see every woman he met naked and tell her how many men she's slept with? That's basically the equivalent of Instagram/Snapchat from the male perspective. These apps in particular have massively tilted the playing field toward women and high status men.

Daygame is your next best option. Many women who have soured on dating apps and who have exhausted their current social circle options are open to a smooth daytime approach. There's a serendipitous factor (from their perspective) that plays in your favor that you simply do not get from other avenues. But even here, you will likely be hampered if you cannot quickly demonstrate value through an Instagram/Snapchat.

Basically, if you aren't into the social media game in 2019 you're fighting a tremendous uphill battle, and all of your game interactions with women will essentially be a race against time: you'll have to somehow dig your hooks into her before she walks away because she can't properly determine your actual value. In other words, you have to demonstrate concrete value very quickly after meeting her. If she doesn't see it with her own eyes she's going to assume you've got nothing going on and will quickly start chasing the next high status guy whose value she can accurately judge through social media.

It's truly incredible how much game has changed in the past decade. It's literally a whole different ballgame. In some ways, the game of 2019 is actually a return to normalcy in the sense that women are starting to turn back towards social circle. The only difference is how much of an outsized role technology is playing, and how invasive it has become in the sexual marketplace and in human socialization in general. The sort of "lone wolf" style game that Roosh and many guys on the forum practiced successfully may turn out to simply have been a flash in the pan phenomenon enabled by a confluence of social and technological factors, which resulted in the atomization of society that had hollowed out in-person social interaction and communities by the late 90s and early 2000s. This left a sort of social vacuum for lone wolf players to take advantage of - with good game they could inject themselves quickly into the orbit of women and have little competition from any men on the outside. But social media fundamentally altered the landscape when it took off big (combined with smartphones) in the early-mid 2010s. These technologies allowed for the creation of new virtual social networks and low-cost, instantaneous means to status signal. Social circles, which had been porous and hollowed out, suddenly became much more rigid and clearly defined. End result? The lone wolf can no longer sneak around in the shadows. He is quickly sussed out as not belonging to the pack.

[Conquistador]

I'm just wondering why your location is good enough for online but not day game. What's your city or city's population? I understand not trying to dox yourself, but someone might be able to help. Also, why not move if this aspect of your life is really important to you?

Edit: are all these girls 7+?

[Fortis]

I think we've all gone through this before. We max out all our stats only to realize we're fighting for a toxic asset (western women) that we don't give a fuck about.

On the bright side, you have a lot going for you. In a more sane place, you would be valued commensurate with all the effort you have put in.

Of course, you can keep grinding it out, but I doubt that would do you much good.

Can you squeeze in some travel time? Doesn't have to be international, can just be within your country or something.

Honestly, even as my game got better I got depressed because I didn't like the women on a fundamental level. Their toxicity made me feel like I was fighting for a pile of rocks. Who cares if you get laid if the girls you have to select from are subpar, right?

If you can't travel, I'd take a break. Don't approach or anything. Delete your dating apps and just spend your time doing exactly what you want to do fora w hile.

The gist, however, is to step back for a while. You're just torturing yourself otherwise. That'll only make it worse.

This does bring to mind a question that I haven't thought about in a while.

Are we entering the period of blackpill? How exactly do we tell a successful guy like Delta what to do? He's in the top 1% of men globally (based on his description) but even he is getting stonewalled by girls.

How do we argue against Blackpill ideology when stuff like this happens?

[Delta]

(03-24-2019 10:56 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

Are we entering the period of blackpill? How exactly do we tell a successful guy like Delta what to do? He's in the top 1% of men globally (based on his description) but even he is getting stonewalled by girls.

How do we argue against Blackpill ideology when stuff like this happens?

There's a ton within these replies that I'd like to address, particularly in Scorpion's post, but right now I only have time for this one point:

Do not get discouraged by my OP.

First, I am not in the top 1% of men globally. Sorry if I gave that impression. We all know facial attractiveness is crucial, and realistically, I believe I'm maybe marginally above average in that department, and only that high because I'm lean, I wash my face regularly, and I don't have some patchy/scraggly excuse for a beard like some guys do. I am not some kind amazing genetic specimen.

But even more importantly than that, I don't see myself as particularly "high-status." What older people and non-westerners have trouble understanding about the modern west is: Here, money is NOT status. The party vibe guy who can hook you up with molly is much more highly regarded than the introverted tech nerd making a nice salary, and I'm much more like the latter, just with some muscles, athletic ability, and capacity to dress myself.

On that note, it's largely my own fault that I'm stuck using "lone wolf" game methods, because my social circles drifted apart throughout my 20's, which of course is natural, but I did a poor job of replenishing. Someone who's more of a charismatic people person may not experience the struggles I am if he has a nice sized social network that produces regular leads.

Finally, I'm in a location that I know is far from ideal for game. I showed my dating app photos to a guy from SF that used to post here who was really into online dating optimization, and he basically said I'd be getting tons of matches with decent looking girls out there... and this same guy would always say that SF is the worst city in America for game. So a lot of this is my stubborn refusal to uproot my life for the purpose of getting laid more.

Bottom line, if you're good at social circle game or you live in a good city, the struggles I describe may not be an issue. (Actually I'd be curious to know if city girls are as lazy and apathetic as what I've been running into.) I'm describing the struggles of someone trying to make lone wolf style game work in a cliquey area without many transplants.

[StrikeBack]

You've got two major fundamental Game problems right there, Delta.

#1: poor logistics.

If you don't have the logistics to do a SNL, you don't have one for a short-termed or long-termed relationship either. Logistics get you laid, that's the most important part of your Game.

#2: too many cold leads, and practically zero warm leads.

Why aren't attractive, approachable girls a part of your daily routines? You should be constantly interacting and flirting with a number of them. That gets you plenty of constant practice, and also many warm leads. All this cold approaches and especially online apps have killed your ability to connect and build rapport with girls. You shouldn't need to sit there thinking and coming up with clever lines and messages, or conversation building strategy. It should be simple and just off the top of your head. Else you'd be in trouble if you somehow manage to start dating one of them for real.

[Fortis]

I should be clear, I'm not discouraged by your situation. I'm actually not living in the West anymore so those problems aren't my own, but it's still a little sad to see how things have deteriorated since I left. I'm in a massive city, so even if I went total lonewolf I'd still be able to feed.

Small towns or small cities would be horrible, though.

[Anchor Man]

Delete

[Anchor Man]

(03-24-2019 10:00 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Traditional night game is dead. Girls simply don't go out to bars/clubs with the hope of meeting a random guy these days. They go out to take pictures with their friends so they can compete with other girls for social media likes. Dating apps are dead. They exist as nothing more than validation mechanisms for average and below average-looking women. Yes, there are exceptions to these generalizations - but the point stands. Your ROI for nightgame and dating apps is much, much lower than in the past. And quality is also way down. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Game has shifted heavily towards social circle and Instagram/Snapchat. I group the two together because they are increasingly inseparable. A confident approach, good looks and engaging conversation are no longer enough to pique the interest of most quality girls these days. They want a man who can demonstrate value and pre-selection through his Instagram/Snapchat. It's as if they simply no longer trust themselves to judge a man's value without seeing his social media. An air of mystery used to be a good thing, but the current generation of young women is so addled by social media that they literally can't make decisions without it.

Women are hardwired to seek out high status men. We know this, and shouldn't get butthurt about it. It is what it is - women wants a high status man like men want an attractive woman. And Instagram/Snapchat, intelligently used, are essentially nothing more than personal advertisements of your social status. This is why they're so intoxicating to women. It's the ultimate shortcut/cheat sheet for them when it comes to assessing a man's value. It lays a man's social status bare for her to judge instantly. Could you imagine an app that somehow let a man see every woman he met naked and tell her how many men she's slept with? That's basically the equivalent of Instagram/Snapchat from the male perspective. These apps in particular have massively tilted the playing field toward women and high status men.

Daygame is your next best option. Many women who have soured on dating apps and who have exhausted their current social circle options are open to a smooth daytime approach. There's a serendipitous factor (from their perspective) that plays in your favor that you simply do not get from other avenues. But even here, you will likely be hampered if you cannot quickly demonstrate value through an Instagram/Snapchat.

Thanks, man for giving such detailed explanation.
But here's one thing I am struggling to understand: the value.
What does male's value consist of ? And How this value can be shown in social media ?
Of course the physical appearance is part of the value.

[Disco_Volante]

Women don't feel attraction anywhere near the way men do towards them. They're attracted to traits that are currently given to them by modern comforts, government mandates, parents, credit cards, colleges, etc... All of these support systems fill the void they needed a man for in the past. They can't like you in the way you like them. If they have a comfortable existence they simply aren't driven to find a man.

They have a different mindset than a man, their behavior is just driving home why past civilizations had them segregated in so many ways. Factor in they can't produce labor, productivity, or innovation like a man it shows what a drain they really are.

[Conquistador]

DV, thanks for the new signature and articulating something that I could not put into words in such a way. I don't really think there is a way to solve the issue of women not really needing men until we don't really want them any more. In the short term we can try to not be needy and not give a fuck, but eventually that will get old.

[RatInTheWoods]

I don't know about all this doom and gloom.

All women and girls want a man, and they are attracted to men. All women either have a boyfriend or are looking for one, except a pretty small percentage (less than 10%)

So if you are not in the bottom 10% you are in the market to get a girl.

Now if you are a 6, and you only want to date an 8 or above, then you are going to struggle, "I can't find a girl" but in reality you have just priced yourself out your SMV market.

Takes me a week or two to get a new gf, when I want one.

[tr1cky]

@scorpion when was the last time you night gamed? Do you go alone or with friends? How many women do you approach on an average night out? Where does the interaction fizzle out (they dont response/instant blowout, they walk/turn away within the first minute, or it ends in a 20 minute chat with a "nice to meet you")?

[Valentine]

(03-25-2019 12:46 PM)Anchor Man Wrote:  

But here's one thing I am struggling to understand: the value.
What does male's value consist of ? And How this value can be shown in social media ?
Of course the physical appearance is part of the value.

Looks, Game, Fame and Money. Look up any male celebrity's Instagram to see the multitude of ways they show these off.

[Rendok]

(03-24-2019 02:24 PM)Delta Wrote:  

day game is essentially impossible where I live.

Many of us (I was no exception) tend to have a too narrow definition of daygame. We think it only counts as daygame if we go to an area with high foot traffic and if we go there for the exclusive purpose of gaming woman. A guy from my local lair once even claimed that approaching indirect does not count as daygame. I now believe that daygame relates to the ability to successfully approach and seduce woman in everyday situations whenever the opportunity presents itself. Be it in the supermarket, the local coffee shop and on my way to work. Being able to do so is also far more time efficient as you have to go and buy your groceries anyway.

Applying this definition of daygame, I am sure you will encounter opportunities in your city.

[RDF]

Delta, I understand your frustration but I think there's a few important things you should keep in mind that may explain the situation more than just a change in the romantic environment or your lack of a tight social circle:

First, logistics are a huge part of the game. Where you are can be the difference between fucking 9s and not getting laid for years. Even an A-list celeb may have a hard time getting laid in an oil town in North Dakota, for example. If I recall from your other posts, you live in a more suburban area. The suburbs can be hell for meeting women once you're above college age, since most desirable girls have either moved to the city or are dating/married. Most of who is left are girls that you have no desire to pursue.

Also, you say that you have no desire to pursue SNLs and sound like you are looking for a serious relationship or something that can potentially evolve into that. That's totally fine, but nowadays, not pushing for the bang early on will hurt your chances in my opinion because you implicitly come across as the nice guy. I always push for the SNL when on a date, and I can't recall a single time that it hurt me (the girls who ghosted were clearly uninterested regardless). Many times, a girl will deny me but continue to text and eventually we bang on a later date. Even if you're looking for something more serious, it rarely hurts to push for sex early, at least in the US.

As for the time wasters, my advice is to be less generous with your time. Especially with online, you can push for a meetup pretty quickly. Comfort game can work with the right girls, but in my time using online game (haven't done it in over a year), I had my first date with most girls within a week of matching. If you don't like texting for weeks to get flaked on, just don't do it. Text back quickly and figure out logistics.

This is another reason to have Snapchat/Instagram. It makes managing pipelines of girls much easier. Instead of texting every girl, send them a snap/IG of a bar you're at, an activity you're doing, etc. She'll never know that you sent this to multiple other girls.

[BlastbeatCasanova]

Am I wrong to infer that you are mostly using online game (you mentioned 20 Hinge dates)?

That's a big part of the problem. The heyday of online game is over unless you're top 10% in looks. Chicks these days are entitled and lazy and they have a higher tendency to flake on a profile over flaking on a person.

I would suggest meeting girls in real life more over online game. As others mentioned, location is also key. Good luck dude

[ksbms]

(03-25-2019 04:32 PM)Rendok Wrote:  

(03-24-2019 02:24 PM)Delta Wrote:  

day game is essentially impossible where I live.

Many of us (I was no exception) tend to have a too narrow definition of daygame. We think it only counts as daygame if we go to an area with high foot traffic and if we go there for the exclusive purpose of gaming woman. A guy from my local lair once even claimed that approaching indirect does not count as daygame. I now believe that daygame relates to the ability to successfully approach and seduce woman in everyday situations whenever the opportunity presents itself. Be it in the supermarket, the local coffee shop and on my way to work. Being able to do so is also far more time efficient as you have to go and buy your groceries anyway.

Applying this definition of daygame, I am sure you will encounter opportunities in your city.

Any public space counts. Some are more adequate to direct, some to indirect but you can do it anywhere.

[Off The Reservation]

Interesting description of your problem. It does not appear that a slight shift of tactics will work. When I read your post and the reply above I got the scent of desperation and I a guy can pick up on it in words a girl will smell it a ways off. In your other very similiar thread you said "Simply put, my mind is worn out and my spirit is broken when it comes to pursuing women."

I suggest the following immediate radical steps which I hope won't be met with defensiveness.

1. Delete every girl from your phone (I'm talking about the prospects not your friends and family and needed work contacts.) If one calls just ask who is this and don't apologize for not keeping her #. Why do this? Because you acquired a lot of low quality leads from your practices you need to dump them. If you cannot do this or are resistant to do this you genuinely do not believe in abundance, and you think you need to cling to these shitty #s.
2. Delete all your dating apps and accounts, full deletion. Wait 30 days and reconsider one of them if there was a chance for quality results. What you are doing is entertaining women by being on these, nobody is there to meet, you are just giving validation. The more validation you provide the less they need to meet you or fuck you. Take that hat off that says free attention for girls. Your attention/conversation/empathy is available only to the ones who meet your demands.
3. No offense but you sound like a corporate drone. Do you make "six figures" kissing ass? Do you have the adjective disease about your job but you actually hate it? Are you forced to be polite to women all day or do you work with men solving problems? Be honest here and act accordingly.
4. Delete all the dumb sluts you don't really like off your social media. Let them go, unfriend, block, etc. Don't let the world see that you surround yourself with "leads" you aren't really interested in. I didn't say don't fuck them, don't let them rise up to equal level with your real friends.
5. Define your goals with women and act accordingly. If you want a wife interview every single girl as a prospective date to get to know over that process. If you want to get laid ask yourself what is it going to take to get laid. You sound like a passive player who goes through the motions and the cool and coy texts but doesn't say to a girl "I'm looking to get you over to my place tonight."
6. Since you aren't gay stop telling us and your physique - do the exercise you need to but stop focusing on this. From your other thread you said one of the most faggoty things Ive heard in a while: "My main photo tested in the top 10% of attractiveness on photofeeler." WHO FUCKING CARES.
7. Your attitude sucks. It doesn't matter if there are a lot of fatties, attention whores and lefty losers out there. Disregard and move on. If you want the results of a man act like one. You can't keep using the attitude of a whiny woman and expect good results.
8. Read the writings of a Buddha of our day: LINUX

(07-07-2018 05:50 PM)LINUX Wrote:  

The mind is a reflex organ -- 78,000 thoughts a day which you can't control.

In this life, and in this game, you are going to have ups and downs. You're going to have great thoughts and depressing thoughts. You're going to feel like you have more women than you know what to do with and then you are going to feel completely alone.

Hang on for a little longer. Things get better. Get rid of the thought that you have to be completely happy all the time and if you are not then something is wrong with you. Real life isn't a perfect little Instagram profile like society portrays. It's a struggle to fight for what you want.

Edit: You got such amazing answers on your old thread I linked to above that I wish I could get depressed just to post and get these answers. Not only LINUX... a wealth of good replies.

[Kid Twist]

delete