Quote: (10-15-2011 07:38 PM)Smitty Wrote:
Quote: (10-15-2011 04:52 PM)Pusscrook Wrote:
So, why are they angry you ask?
Well, perhaps they to are angry that we had to bail out the very institutions that hoodwinked the entire world.
Just because it hasn't been mentioned by the 50 or so people that have been interviewed, doesn't mean they are not protesters that are not angry about that. The government had no choice, but protesting against the government for using our tax payer dollars to bail out these institutions is secondary to what the institutions did to the entire world. Why is that such a bad thing to protest against that which you know to be the original source of the world's pain? I don't think we can pin-point exactly when the government knew about the fraud, but we do know for a fact ,who , where , and when this fraud was committed.
This is where we fundamentally disagree. The government did not have to bail out the banks. It could have let the banks fail to clean out the system of that which had become corrupt - excise the tumor so to speak. I do not think these banks are the source of the world's pain. I believe the root cause is people spending and living beyond their means. This creates bubbles - housing and credit. Some people blame the banks because they relaxed the credit standards, but the gov't had long ago determined that owning a home was the American dream and Freddie and Fannie have been guaranteeing loans for years. I don't blame the lender, I blame the person taking the loan...the consumer who overloaded himself and could not pay back his debt. Look at the personal debt charts (here) and you'll see a consistent climb over the past 30 years. How can we blame Wall St. for that? The credit bubble is a product of our society insisting that they should be able to have whatever they want - 3000 sq ft home, Cadillac SUV, nice clothes, cell phones, laptops, and two vacations every year, on a $60k/year salary.
Your next question is: why do these protesters care what corporations do with there money:
Well, they shouldn't care, and yes, you do have protesters with numerous excuses for blaming corporations ,but , when these same corporations manipulate goods and services, or debt instruments for the good of a select few, all the while delivering a crushing blow to the rest of the world, we should all care. There is no need to guess, we know that this is exactly what happened. The world economy did not come to a screeching halt because small businesses were not able to hire, E.P.A. regulations, D.A.D.T, or health care. THe very animal created by Phil Gramm (via deregulating the housing industry),is the same rabid dog that bit all of us in the ass. No one would have predicted the amount of abuse that would be allowed, yet, we are here, because corporations/institutions,are responsible, and took advantage of that regulation.
As you stated , the majority of these protesters may not know why they are there and that may be attributed to a host of things. Age, educational level, financial situation, or some other ulterior motive. WHether they are there because big corporations is a symbol of greed or not is inconsequential, because the facts are, big corporations( see the ones I mentioned above) are the ones that caused this crisis.
Again, I disagree that these are the facts. I am not disputing that there was bad behavior by the investment bankers, etc, but I do not believe one bit that they are the group that solely caused this crisis. Look around the world and we see financial crises throughout the U.S., Europe, and Japan. What is the root cause of these crises? Too much debt. Each country in trouble - the U.S., Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Spain, Greece, Japan - has a problem of not enough income relative to the amount they are spending. Now, it's debatable where each country should be spending their money (defense, entitlements, etc), but the simple fact is there is not enough money coming in relative to the amount being spent on the nation. The big corporations have not caused this issue. They may be part of it insomuch as they have laid people off and contributed to the unemployment, but we have record numbers on food stamps in the U.S. We have people on unemployment for two years now. How is this related to people on Wall St. being greedy. Even Pelosi and Obama have not said, to my knowledge, the global crisis was caused by the banks. They simply believe that it is unfair that the bankers are making so much money while the majority of the people in the nation are hurting. They want to "spread the wealth around" and have the banks "pay their fair share."
I think you and I are by and large in agreement on many things, but I do have to disagree that it is indisputable that Wall St has caused the global crisis, when, in fact, nations are simply spending more than they are bringing in. For the record, I am not a wall st fanboy or brainwashed like some around will default to as their argument. I am simply a capitalist who believes in the free market and limited gov't. I'm not a republican or democrat, but I will not argue against being frugal, and the U.S. gov't is not frugal. There are more freeloaders now than ever in our history.
Perhaps we disagree because we agree. For the record I am an ultra fiscal conservative , so I don't tend to do to well with "free loaders". Sometimes I wish I could just get elected for a day just to enact legislation that states that if you have one kid, and you have no job, we have the right to stitch your pussy up until you can prove to us that you can support your child or any other children you desire to have. Would you vote for me? HEHEH
Seriously speaking, Of course you are correct that there was too much spending globally, furthermore, The world has been doing that for ages. However, I don't think that was the "event" that triggered a world wide recession.It may be a view point, but I am not sure that is the consensus amongst those who sell paper in the secondary market. Let me ask you this, ( I am assuming you are familiar with this) Do you know why certain countries were not affected by this crisis and others were? Example, do you think Russia was affected the same way Europe was? Do you think Canada was affected the same way France was? Why was Japan affected differently from China?
Did you know what Germany's unemployment rate was prior to the crisis? What is it now? Startling difference. The countries you mentioned tied a lot of their currency to sub-prime toxic assets and the central banks had no choice but to bail out a lot of these institutions. For example, Deutsche bank bought up most of the toxic assets we sold in Europe , yet it's power in the European Union, is that of your federal reserve system. This in turn, sent the Euro into a tail spin once the crisis hit Europe. If there is another explanation as to why the strongest economy in Europe (Germany) went into such a rapid tail spin , I honestly have never heard of that. You mentioned Greece.. Perfect example. From what I understand ,Greece, had the fastest growing economy in the eurozone from 2000-2007. What do you think happened in 2008-2009? So, in one year,did they start spending at such an alarming rate so as to send their economy into a recession? I real am not making this stuff up. I know you will call me on it, if it was bullshit.
WHen you say even Pelosi and Obama have not said the crisis was not cause by the banks......
They were not caused by "banks" , they were caused by financial institutions, who used the banks to facilitate/ secure loans from borrowers, which turned out to be toxic. Case and point, Country wide( major player in sub-prime shit hole paper) is not a bank, but used the banks to secure loans for the borrowers. Banks invested heavily in these toxic assets, but once they realized there was no value to the assets, we had a market freeze. We probably just need a drink over this shit.lol
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