[Roosh]

In the United Stats we have a strong feminist establishment without much in the way of a men's rights counterpoint. There are anti-feminist bloggers like me and small men's rights sites but nothing that even begins to match what the feminists have.

I feel that Scandinavia is farther along with feminism than we are, to the point where even gender is being seen as a gray area instead of a black and white biological construct. Are there strong anti-feminist organizations in your country trying to push back this "progress"? Are there lots of sites like mine or Roissy in your native language that tries to call out all the bullshit? Do you feel that there is a rising movement or backlash against feminism, or does everyone swallow what's going on there?

I get the impression that Scandinavian men are not fighting back, and just going along for the ride.

[Basil Ransom]

I'm not Scandinavian, but I did live in Copenhagen for half a year. My impression is that though they are farther along, there is a fundamental difference:

American women want to have it both ways. Scandinavian women don't.

The American woman wants complete liberation and equality, but she still wants all the benefits of a traditional arrangement. That means having the man pay for dates to the man working while she stays home and hires nannies to care for the kids. That means getting to act like boorish like a man, but still mock and disdain those men who aren't manly. On a fundamental level, American women don't actually want feminism or equality. They want more power and less accountability. The American woman claims all the benefits and none of the obligations from either arrangement - which is what makes them so intolerable.

I had this conversation with a Swedish girl in America once.

Maybe I just wasn't dialed in to the culture, but it felt like Danish/Scandinavian women didn't have as much scorn for beta men as American women do.

[Snok]

Spot on basilransom.

I think the reasons you adress are the same reasons why there is not much fight towards feminism in Scandinavia. The second reason is we have less tradition of making mass movements against smaller issues. Polititcal and philosofical debates are usually done inside the frame of different political parties.

The most visual conflict regarding feminism is the law for how to divide the kids' time when parents split up families. In this situation woman have a very strong protection by the law and its something that is gradually changing because it has got so much negative focus.

[Luckystar]

During my short stay (10 days), I wondered the same thing actually...the levels of androgyny are very high...in America, women have lost their femininity...in Sweden, the androgyny comes more from the men from my observations...doesn't anyone find this alarming in Scandinavia?

[Donald Duck]

Not only is feminism further over there, the men are also more feminine then American men.

Pictures of what are actually normal men's clothes/fashion in Scandinavia and other Northern European countries:










So, I'd say you are correct, Roosh.

[Luckystar]

These pics are actually fine...there were definitely more than a few encounters where I looked at a dude and thought 'what the fuck are you wearing, dude?'....the worst is wide and low neckline on tight thin T-shirts to show off man cleavage...when you have build I think it looks cheesy, but when you are scrawny it looks really, really gay...the neckline goes so low that it almost seems to transform the chest into two tiny tits...kinda shocking, at times.

Having said all that, at least they aren't wearing purses like every dude in Ukraine...

[Excelsior]

(10-07-2011 05:55 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

I'm not Scandinavian, but I did live in Copenhagen for half a year. My impression is that though they are farther along, there is a fundamental difference:

American women want to have it both ways. Scandinavian women don't.

The American woman wants complete liberation and equality, but she still wants all the benefits of a traditional arrangement. That means having the man pay for dates to the man working while she stays home and hires nannies to care for the kids. That means getting to act like boorish like a man, but still mock and disdain those men who aren't manly. On a fundamental level, American women don't actually want feminism or equality. They want more power and less accountability. The American woman claims all the benefits and none of the obligations from either arrangement - which is what makes them so intolerable.

I had this conversation with a Swedish girl in America once.

Maybe I just wasn't dialed in to the culture, but it felt like Danish/Scandinavian women didn't have as much scorn for beta men as American women do.

+1, perfect description.

This is the difference between feminism in the USA and feminism just about everywhere else. Women over there say equality and actually mean it. That I can live with.

[ersatz]

(10-07-2011 08:54 PM)Donald Duck Wrote:  

Not only is feminism further over there, the men are also more feminine then American men.

Pictures of what are actually normal men's clothes/fashion in Scandinavia and other Northern European countries:





So, I'd say you are correct, Roosh.

For the first two pictures, other than the hair style, what is unmasculine about that dress? Suit jacket, tie, vest, leather boots, jeans, brown khaki like pants??

[Saladin]

Scandinavian women just seem to be very easy going and have more femininity than American women from what I saw of them.

One of the things I remember from Stockholm is approaching a Swedish 10 and a girl with her who was American and mediocre. Guess which one was bitchy?

This is why guys there aren't too concerned, average guys there will end up with a fairly cute girl(due to lack of obesity). I saw a lot of average Indian betas with cute girls in Oslo, those guys would be dating fatties or mediocre Indian girls here.

[Mighty Mouse]

Some posts in this thread make me think some of you guys are simply about bashing the USA instead of bashing feminism in general.

This makes me sad.

Some statements (like many Skank-dinavian guys are dating up) are plain wrong. Others, like feminism means equality in Sweden, are absolutely ridiculous.

Ever heard of their prostitution law? Ever heard of a guy called Julian Assange? Ever heard of the high suicide rate among Swedish men who have "natural disadvantages"?

This is my last post in this thread. As long as you dont see this problem is an INTERNATIONAL one, nothing will change.

[Vicious]

Because the anti-feminist movement on this forum is so strong I've held off giving my $.02 in this matter. There's just been too many cultural differences to wade through in order to get things right here. My disclaimer: I only speak for Sweden, most of what I mention here will be true for Norway as well because our cultures are so close. Denmark and Finland however are far more different.

First, feminism in Swe is more than anything else a political movement. It mainly concerns equal right and deals with developing legislations that makes people genderless with regard to their employer and state (ie equal wages, equal days of paternal leave etc). The most visible aspect of this socially is sexual liberation and women expecting to pay for themselves and hold up their financial part in a family (this movement has actually made divorce laws less profitable for women). The stay-at-home wife is extremely rare. There is of course a vocal minority as well that's preaching affirmative action and similar, those are however fringe extremists (*cough*dykes*cough*) and generally have no impact upon the masses. Among the male population there will still be doormats that insist on buying everything, and will readily tell women how they are feminists and throw themselves at puddles in their way, these are however not indications of the national culture. It's a clueless behaviour that goes on everywhere in the world and transcends culture.

I see a lot of bullshit on the board on how Scandinavian men look feminine and that this would somehow be a product of feminism. I'll tell you an anecdote to put some perspective on this. I was in Las Vegas recently. I'm rolling there in my tailored suit, Rizzo shoes and Omega, the whole kit. Lots of guys are telling me all week how I'm looking good/smooth, which is completely fine. But they are adding (without fail) at the end how they are "no homo". I find this hilarious. There's this petrifying fright in the US as a male to be regarded in any kind of way as gay. When I went to High School for a year in the US the guys on the Track team initially thought I was gay because I actually removed my sweat soaked underwear in the locker rooms after doing my laps. You try to tell me that it's more manly to shower in your boxers at school than without and I'll show you what insecurity looks like.

As mentioned my dress sense is fairly conservative. I hold little patience for the more effeminate fashion fads that are making the rounds right now. But I recognise them as fashion, not an expression of sexuality. When there's no real taboo on being feminine then these looks will eventually attract some followers. I see no evidence that this is related to feminism however. There's certainly some guys that dress this way thinking that it will get them into the pants of some pierced, PETA emo girl (who enjoys playing dress-up with their orbiters). Still, I don't see this as anything different then the current state-side trends of wearing weesh fedoras or a tie with a short sleeved shirt hoping that this will somehow project a sense of style. It's a means to an end.

So, to summarize. There's not much "fighting back" feminism because it's not really taking anything away. Especially not for the younger population who is not as exposed to politics where these battles are mostly fought. Swe Feminism is simply not the same as what most of you guys are talking about. The obesity epidemic, the demands to be respected no matter your behaviour, the expectations to be pampered and treated like a lady, the entire dating game - these are issues that can not hide behind feminism over here.

[Basil Ransom]

Some miscellaneous points:

Even if Scandinavia exhibits more androgyny, this isn't nearly as bad as it would be in America. American men are visibly more boorish, and the women are now trying to outdo them, aka "be one of the guys." It seems even worse in the British isles. So androgyny in the Scandinavian context isn't the same thing as it is in America. Genteel androgyny > trashy androgyny.

Scandinavian androgyny seems to precede feminism. Maybe lower sexual dimorphism aka smaller sex differences, are lower among Scandinavians due to their genetic differences.

I'm sympathetic to Vicious' points. On a related note, I've met a couple men throughout my life who did incredibly gay, weird or effeminate things, but they were still commanding around women, not to mention incredibly successful with them. They're few and far between, and often slightly bisexual. I'm starting to think that one of the true markers of masculinity is being in control of your women. If you wear 'guyliner' and get Brazilian waxes, but your girlfriend worships you, you are a far bigger man than the average pussy whipped American male, in my book. At the end of the day, it's about social dominance. No matter how big your guns and bankroll are, if you can't command respect from your woman, you are weak.

Quote:

many Skank-dinavian guys are dating up

I disagree. On the continent as a whole, with the possible exception of the British isles, the men date up, compared to America. Obesity is much less prevalent. Women dress better. They're better looking to start with. And the people seem more monogamous, so fewer chicks are banging alphas they can't hold down, instead dating men roughly their equal.

While in Denmark, I remember thinking I'd much sooner take the average Danish girl over the average American girl, but it was far easier to find an exceptional American girl. Every time I met a cool girl in Denmark, it turned out she wasn't Danish.

[rudebwoy]

(10-08-2011 06:50 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Because the anti-feminist movement on this forum is so strong I've held off giving my $.02 in this matter. There's just been too many cultural differences to wade through in order to get things right here. My disclaimer: I only speak for Sweden, most of what I mention here will be true for Norway as well because our cultures are so close. Denmark and Finland however are far more different.

First, feminism in Swe is more than anything else a political movement. It mainly concerns equal right and deals with developing legislations that makes people genderless with regard to their employer and state (ie equal wages, equal days of paternal leave etc). The most visible aspect of this socially is sexual liberation and women expecting to pay for themselves and hold up their financial part in a family (this movement has actually made divorce laws less profitable for women). The stay-at-home wife is extremely rare. There is of course a vocal minority as well that's preaching affirmative action and similar, those are however fringe extremists (*cough*dykes*cough*) and generally have no impact upon the masses. Among the male population there will still be doormats that insist on buying everything, and will readily tell women how they are feminists and throw themselves at puddles in their way, these are however not indications of the national culture. It's a clueless behaviour that goes on everywhere in the world and transcends culture.

I see a lot of bullshit on the board on how Scandinavian men look feminine and that this would somehow be a product of feminism. I'll tell you an anecdote to put some perspective on this. I was in Las Vegas recently. I'm rolling there in my tailored suit, Rizzo shoes and Omega, the whole kit. Lots of guys are telling me all week how I'm looking good/smooth, which is completely fine. But they are adding (without fail) at the end how they are "no homo". I find this hilarious. There's this petrifying fright in the US as a male to be regarded in any kind of way as gay. When I went to High School for a year in the US the guys on the Track team initially thought I was gay because I actually removed my sweat soaked underwear in the locker rooms after doing my laps. You try to tell me that it's more manly to shower in your boxers at school than without and I'll show you what insecurity looks like.

As mentioned my dress sense is fairly conservative. I hold little patience for the more effeminate fashion fads that are making the rounds right now. But I recognise them as fashion, not an expression of sexuality. When there's no real taboo on being feminine then these looks will eventually attract some followers. I see no evidence that this is related to feminism however. There's certainly some guys that dress this way thinking that it will get them into the pants of some pierced, PETA emo girl (who enjoys playing dress-up with their orbiters). Still, I don't see this as anything different then the current state-side trends of wearing weesh fedoras or a tie with a short sleeved shirt hoping that this will somehow project a sense of style. It's a means to an end.

So, to summarize. There's not much "fighting back" feminism because it's not really taking anything away. Especially not for the younger population who is not as exposed to politics where these battles are mostly fought. Swe Feminism is simply not the same as what most of you guys are talking about. The obesity epidemic, the demands to be respected no matter your behaviour, the expectations to be pampered and treated like a lady, the entire dating game - these are issues that can not hide behind feminism over here.

Good post dude!

Sweden is basically giving more rights to women, which in some aspects is not a bad thing.
In North America, girls want your money and keep theirs as well.
I also know alot of dudes who say that "no homo" thing quite a bit and take it too far, it is so annoying!
All said and done, I know where I would much rather be living!

[Roosh]

Vicious: Why do you think American men have deeper hatred for feminists than Swedish guys? Even on this forum, with guys who get laid more than average, the hatred is strong and visceral.

[Chad Daring]

(10-08-2011 02:12 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Vicious: Why do you think American men have deeper hatred for feminists than Swedish guys? Even on this forum, with guys who get laid more than average, the hatred is strong and visceral.

I'm not going to act as learned and worldly as everyone else in this thread but to me it seems obvious. Guys there have simply adapted (albeit the wrong way) They've become more feminine in response to women becoming more masculine. Everything is still in balance (even if the scale itself is all kinds of fucked up)

You saw this a bit in America. Emo kids. Emo guys are usually very effeminate, emo girls tend to be more butch, yet I always saw emo couples. Emo guys in my highschool were never single, they adapted.

Just my thoughts

[Vicious]

(10-08-2011 02:12 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Vicious: Why do you think American men have deeper hatred for feminists than Swedish guys? Even on this forum, with guys who get laid more than average, the hatred is strong and visceral.

I think it's actually a deeper hate for American women in general. Or rather the games they play and the hoops and manipulation they put up against men.

As I mentioned I've had the opportunity to travel extensively and live in the US. I think there are very few cultures were women are so... callous toward men. I just see so little love there, relationships are so often about a mutual exchange of status - rather than passion and higher emotions. I can't explain why this is, just an observation. I could be completely wrong as well and have just seen the worst of it.

[Excelsior]

(10-08-2011 02:12 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Vicious: Why do you think American men have deeper hatred for feminists than Swedish guys? Even on this forum, with guys who get laid more than average, the hatred is strong and visceral.

Question isn't for me, but...

Honestly, I think the answer rests in the description of the differences in the nature of European feminism vs. American feminism. It basically goes back to what Basil said earlier in this thread. American feminism wants to have things both ways("we're totally equal...but men should still be chivalrous!"), while Swedish feminists appear to actually mean equality when they say it.

In America, you have to deal with the hypocrisy we talk about in the manospere everyday, with women demanding one thing and then seemingly wanting another(and the legal, social and economic effects all of these demands have on guys).

I do not think that American men hate feminism in and of itself. The vast majority of American men, in my experience, do not appear to have a problem with legal and occupational equality for women. What really irks them is the hypocrisy of it all.

The more I analyze the roots of discussions across the manosphere and the complaints contained therein, the more I'm starting to see that the root cause of it all is really the uniquely arrogant nature of American feminism, whereby women demand more power without any consequences.

Everytime we talk about the rise of entitled manly/obese girls, "40 is the new 30"(old women acting as though age isn't an issue), the double standards in divorce/family law, and all of these other things, what we're really complaining about is the hypocrisy. The basic fundamental nature of these issues is defined by a female desire to have their cake and eat it too.

Take the following issues, for example:

-"Manning up": Females here want to ride the cock carousel in youth, shunning commitment and the beta males who want it, sometimes outright insulting them. Then they want to age and shame those same beta males who now move past them, asking them to "man up". Eat cake, have cake.

-"Obesity": Fat women here want to eat however they like and maintain zero impulse control or discipline, but they also want to be treated as though they were fit, cute girls without looking the part. They shouldn't be called unattractive or unhealthy...even though they are unattractive and unhealthy. Eat cake (literally), have cake.

-"Divorce laws": "We as women are entirely equal to men intellectually and socially...but we still want alimony, and will proceed to initiate 75% of all divorces(even though we were the ones begging men to "man up" and marry us in the first place)." Eat cake, have cake.

-"I just want a nice, reliable guy": Proceeds to bang the idiotic DJs down the street while ignoring the "nice, reliable" guys she does know. Says one thing, does another. Had cake, ate the cake. Later on, she'll wonder where all of the good guys went.

-"Don't know how to cook": Roosh mentioned this one on his list of 42 Things Wrong With American Women. Not knowing how to cook isn't really a bad thing in and of itself. The problem comes when you insert hypocrisy. These same women who lack cooking and other domestic skills(read: cannot fill a traditional feminine gender role) expect men to fulfill traditional male gender roles(pay all the bills, be chivalrous, etc). Again, they want to eat the cake and keep it too. It is equal when they like it, misogynistic when they do not.

All of this is easy to see through, and that is why men hate it so much. It is just too wildly transparent and self-serving. Equal pay and legal rights are fine, but feminism here isn't demanding that. It is asking for female dominance, not equality, and that is somewhat infuriating.

On another note, and this was mentioned before: American women of all kinds seem to generally maintain a passionate hatred for beta males. This varies somewhat by community(it is obviously more extreme among blacks, less so among whites/asians) but it is generally there.

We have mentioned before that in Scandinavia and much of the rest of Europe, beta males seem to carry a lot more value.

Now, consider that the majority of men everywhere are what you would call betas, and you have a clearer answer. Swedish women, including the feminists, are not quite as hostile to betas(read: the majority of the male populace), and thus you can see more amicable gender relations.

American women, especially feminists, tend to dislike betas(read: most men). Thus, you have less amicable gender relations.

Add to this the raw capitalist nature of American relations that Vicious mentioned(so many relationships seem to be about status and cash, rather than the more crucial intangible things) and you have a recipe for hostility. The women here never really love the men in the first place(all about the status), and the men, most of whom are betas, naturally react with skepticism/hostility towards a female populace that is generally more hostile to betas than others across the world.

[soup]

In my experience, I've noticed that Swedish girls are kind of prude when it comes to giving blow-jobs. Someone else I know had the same experience. wtf up with that? Swedish guys notice this?

At least American girls like to get raunchy.

[Easy E]

(10-08-2011 02:24 PM)Chad Daring Wrote:  

(10-08-2011 02:12 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Vicious: Why do you think American men have deeper hatred for feminists than Swedish guys? Even on this forum, with guys who get laid more than average, the hatred is strong and visceral.

I'm not going to act as learned and worldly as everyone else in this thread but to me it seems obvious. Guys there have simply adapted (albeit the wrong way) They've become more feminine in response to women becoming more masculine. Everything is still in balance (even if the scale itself is all kinds of fucked up)

You saw this a bit in America. Emo kids. Emo guys are usually very effeminate, emo girls tend to be more butch, yet I always saw emo couples. Emo guys in my highschool were never single, they adapted.

Just my thoughts

This is the best post of this thread. The Northern Euro guys have simply adapted.

American men (and minority men like Latinos) are never going to adapt and become more andro, at least not on the scale of the Northern Euro men.

[oldnemesis]

(10-08-2011 02:12 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Vicious: Why do you think American men have deeper hatred for feminists than Swedish guys? Even on this forum, with guys who get laid more than average, the hatred is strong and visceral.

Because the mainstream America is too stiff and conservative - meaning it is unwilling to adapt, so it reacts in a very hostile way to any environmental/political/societal changes. It is not just about feminism, it is everywhere. The main reason for that is that comparing to Europe the USA went through very few changes during its lifetime, and most of them were very insignificant comparing to what the rest of the world went through.

[Basil Ransom]

(10-09-2011 08:49 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(10-08-2011 02:12 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Vicious: Why do you think American men have deeper hatred for feminists than Swedish guys? Even on this forum, with guys who get laid more than average, the hatred is strong and visceral.

Because the mainstream America is too stiff and conservative - meaning it is unwilling to adapt, so it reacts in a very hostile way to any environmental/political/societal changes. It is not just about feminism, it is everywhere. The main reason for that is that comparing to Europe the USA went through very few changes during its lifetime, and most of them were very insignificant comparing to what the rest of the world went through.

That doesn't stand up to reason. All the evils of America are about as bad or worse in Britain. And some say English Canada, Australia and New Zealand are not far behind, with their various drawbacks. Whatever it is, it's something distinctly Anglo.

[Morgan]

Don't have the illusion that it is better in northern Europe.

It is extreme as well. Misandry, male hate, is very developed in Sweden and other countries. If you watch TV, anti-male drivels are standard, men are regarded as human trash. The whole EU parliament is now controlled by feminists and their poodles, white knights. Almost daily we get new laws against men. Divorce is a nightmare everywhere, children are regularly taken from their fathers.

In schools, they teach children from early age that men are violent and primitive and that all evils come from men.

Whenever I see Scandinavian families on holidays, the standard picture is a bossy woman with fierce looks and a weak man who walks behind with the kids and follows orders. Just disgusting.

Our women may not be as fat and obese as yours. But even that gap is now narrowing.

So, American men, stand up and do something!

I'm fully convinced that a strong anti-feminist movement in America will finally come to Europe as well and have a strong impact.

[rudebwoy]

I think this bashing of northern Euro guys is a bit unwarranted to some degree.
The bottom line is that these dudes are surrounded by some sexy looking women, which cannot be said for most North American cities. To boot, these sexy creatures are liberal as well. I mean I cannot imagine having grown up there surrounded by such wealth of women. Unlike Toronto, where men seem to outnumber decent women.
No they are not all blonde bombshells, but I will tell you that I have witnessed hotties hanging out by themselves and walking the streets solo in Stockholm. They were even approachable.
In Sweden I went on a date and the girl refused to let me buy her a coffee, seemed a little strange to me. But compare that to the ugly girls in Toronto who go out looking for chumps to buy them drinks in nightclubs.

Personally, I think women in America/Canada don't know what happiness is, they have been so brainwashed with all this media crap to think they have power. It is a scam that keeps us divided, this is a deeper issue that I don't want to go into.
Have you seen this new movie about the Three Musketeers, they have some chick trying to be a badass and it looks like she rescue them. Total BS imho, why are they making this crap.
Another beef I have is women commentating on male sports, what the f*ck do they know about the NFL! Rant over lol

[Vicious]

(10-09-2011 04:59 PM)soup Wrote:  

In my experience, I've noticed that Swedish girls are kind of prude when it comes to giving blow-jobs. Someone else I know had the same experience. wtf up with that? Swedish guys notice this?

At least American girls like to get raunchy.

I think the percentages are about equal on this. I've encountered American girls refusing to polish my rod even when they've been tearing up the sheets with the rest of the sex. At the same time I know guys who claim to have been blown by Iraqi girls from very religious and conservative. In my experience blow job giving ability is one of those patterns I have not managed to identify. You can test for it with certain topics in a conversation early on if it's a deal breaker but I haven't yet identified the tells that will tell me beforehand if a girl will go oral or not. Very elusive. Funny how that is when I can usually tell if a girl will make a good LTR within 5-10 min of meeting her.

Anyhow this is an interesting topic but not really relevant for this thread.

[plutoniannights]

In Sweden, a few years ago, some of the feminists formed a party called Feministiskt Initiativ (FI), which completely flopped in the election, bringing some attention to the various ridiculous aspects of radical feminism. On the other hand, there are some male rights activists, and I have seen debate articles in major Swedish newspapers written by such activists.

I wanted to posts links to two articles in one of the biggest Swedish newspapers, SvD, but it seems to not be allowed for new users due to spam. Anyway, if you are interested, do a Google search for the article "Män kuvas av statlig feminism" by Pär Ström (Google translates from Swedish), and for the opposite point of view, the article called "Myter om feministiska framsteg skapar nya myter" by Gudrun Schyman (founder of FI).

That should give you an idea of at what the debate is like at a public level in Sweden.