[Heuristics]

I recently started with a new wing, I never thought I would end up with a wing again, but for whatever reason I found one. I don't know how long this arrangement will last, but if I can impart some red pills on him, and some distilled pickup material we may be a good team. In part due to similar backgrounds, interests, and age. Also, same goal: to get laid or die trying!

In the past, guys that have winged for me have lacked the same level of drive as me. I am, by my very nature, a competitive person in tasks I undertake. Basically all my wings have have issues winging because they are not competitive enough or have serious approach anxiety. I am not trying to blame them, or deflect from my flaws as a gamer/wing, but this seems to be the case, they are just unwilling to do massive grinding for results. Even these are not the hugest problems because two different personalities/ people can compliment each other when gaming even if there is some laziness to contend with. What really has killed me with my wings is lack of red-pill awareness or dedication to studying gaming material. Things that for me are quite basic, such as field reports, and going out and not getting blitzed, are completely overlooked by the wing(s). At the core almost every normal man has an ongoing burning desire to get laid. But what astounds me is how many men choose to keep swallowing the blue pill even though some of their peers are doing better then them and must, by basic logic be doing something different.

I do my best to gradually red-pill the wing, but what are some other ways to make this partnership work out more? Not to trash my wing, every opportunity we've had to go out, we've gone out, and he has opened sets despite being pretty scared to approach.

[Waqqle]

In my experience, throwing a woman the wing's way and subtly guiding that woman into his close does a great deal for his confidence and also increases his loyalty toward you because you prove to him from the outset that your relationship is not going to be one-sided. There is an art to this and to being a wing in general. Essentially, you are his wing every bit as much as he is yours. Once he gets a taste of success, he will only ever want more of it and he will never forget the guy who helped him get that first taste. In my view, it is even a good move to hook your wing up in the beginning even if it costs you a day/night because they will remember that and, want to pay you back. And, if they don't want to pay you back, then you know that they are not the kind of wing you want to waste any more of your time working with.

[RatInTheWoods]

When I hear you say "competitive" and "massive grinding" it makes me think you aren't much fun to go out with.

There is more to life than chasing pussy and putting massive effort in, not all guys will enjoy that.

Perhaps your wing is trying to tell you to chill out, relax, and you know, actually enjoy going out, socialising and gaming.

You are not my kind of wing, because I don't do mass approaches to uninterested women, spoil the vibe, stay off the drink and grind all night.

I like to go out, have a few drinks, chase the tail who give me the IOIS, chat to my bros and generally chill out. Pussy is a bonus.

I'd say go out, relax and let your wing set the pace, see if you have more fun.

[Cobra]

RITW above has an excellent point.

I've met guys that have done 1000 approaches and still awkward as hell because they didn't learn from them. Rather they wanted to "grind" it out. Imagine being in a Corporate job and "grinding" it out for promotions to the top. That's what you're doing. Now imagine getting out of that job and doing something way riskier like starting your own business or going into an entrepreneurial field. The latter is what I would call game progression whereas the former would be "grinding."

Working 70 hours a week doesn't necessarily make you successful just like doing a 1000 approaches with limited adjustments won't make you successful.

I'm interested to know what your goals are OP and what your approach methodology is as well as your results with and without a wing. Are you looking for motivation by having a wing? Maybe you're better off solo.

Just some thoughts to guide you in the direction that's best for you.

[Heuristics]

(12-28-2018 02:17 AM)Waqqle Wrote:  

In my experience, throwing a woman the wing's way and subtly guiding that woman into his close does a great deal for his confidence and also increases his loyalty toward you because you prove to him from the outset that your relationship is not going to be one-sided. There is an art to this and to being a wing in general. Essentially, you are his wing every bit as much as he is yours. Once he gets a taste of success, he will only ever want more of it and he will never forget the guy who helped him get that first taste. In my view, it is even a good move to hook your wing up in the beginning even if it costs you a day/night because they will remember that and, want to pay you back. And, if they don't want to pay you back, then you know that they are not the kind of wing you want to waste any more of your time working with.

This is some great advise, and I’ve already done this a time or two, in one case, my wing went home with a girl that I opened on our second night out together. This is all about avoiding ego for me and doing everything I can to strengthen our partnership. Although we have only really just started going out, I am not going to loose sight of this important point.

(12-28-2018 04:40 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

When I hear you say "competitive" and "massive grinding" it makes me think you aren't much fun to go out with.

There is more to life than chasing pussy and putting massive effort in, not all guys will enjoy that.

Perhaps your wing is trying to tell you to chill out, relax, and you know, actually enjoy going out, socialising and gaming.

You are not my kind of wing, because I don't do mass approaches to uninterested women, spoil the vibe, stay off the drink and grind all night.

I like to go out, have a few drinks, chase the tail who give me the IOIS, chat to my bros and generally chill out. Pussy is a bonus.

I'd say go out, relax and let your wing set the pace, see if you have more fun.

I guess I am somewhat a RSD approach disciple, but this is something that I’m working on rolling back because I’m aware of some of the obvious negatives of that method. In fact, I got a wing that way I can snipe approaches rather than having to mass approach or game alone which sometimes can be a DLV. Due to my personalty, being very trigger happy on approaches initially had to be done so I could properly calibrate myself and get over what I would describe as massive approach anxiety.

I have already dialed back my expectations, and realized on our most recent outing (just a few nights ago) that we don’t even have to do one set in a night to have a good time. If anything, he’s already taught me the importance of online game and shown me what works for him.

Wings of course usually need to have some mutual compatibility. I will drink when going out, but it usually tilts towards the lighter end of things because more than a few beers kills most my drive to approach, and thus I go into party mode.

Thank you for your advise. In the future, now that I have already set the tone a bit, I’m completely willing to defer to him.

(12-28-2018 08:17 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

RITW above has an excellent point.

I've met guys that have done 1000 approaches and still awkward as hell because they didn't learn from them. Rather they wanted to "grind" it out. Imagine being in a Corporate job and "grinding" it out for promotions to the top. That's what you're doing. Now imagine getting out of that job and doing something way riskier like starting your own business or going into an entrepreneurial field. The latter is what I would call game progression whereas the former would be "grinding."

Working 70 hours a week doesn't necessarily make you successful just like doing a 1000 approaches with limited adjustments won't make you successful.

I'm interested to know what your goals are OP and what your approach methodology is as well as your results with and without a wing. Are you looking for motivation by having a wing? Maybe you're better off solo.

Just some thoughts to guide you in the direction that's best for you.

I realize with a wing there is not that same need to grind, so I will adjust accordingly.

My goals are to have some social proof, to have a spotter as I call it (someone that can call the windage on shots and observe my game up close), and also have someone that I can learn from that way I can become a better gamer. On a deeper level, I have been looking for a solid friend for a while that can handle me dropping red-pills. Most the time I have to avoid that because of too many normies.

I am not really much of a daygamer, so I wanted a wing that way going out would be a bit easier and also more fun when I’m not gaming.

As for approaches, I am pretty good about approaching almost immediately, every time. One thing I do not really feel comfortable about yet, is approaching mixed sets. Otherwise, as you can see from my approach log, I have no problem approaching one girl, or five girls. But I’ll tell you what, it is much easier approaching a five-set with a wing. It takes a lot of the high-stakes pressure off the table.

My results, while still preliminary, are already better, and I’ve made more approaches in the past 2-3 weeks than I have in the two months prior to that. That’s a huge improvement on what I was doing.

I have gotten more number closes, the sets have been of higher quality, and in general longer, and because he also has a social network, we can social circle game now, which I wasn’t doing before. He has a lead for me on a girl that he hooked up with, her friend wants to hookup with me now, because I am fun and apparently high energy.

[Rushmore]

It reads as if you are very focussed at getting your numbers right. It all sounds like a lot of pressure. Even this very fixed idea of what a wingman should be like.

What do you mean by saying that you are very "competitive"?

[Heuristics]

(12-28-2018 10:50 AM)Rushmore Wrote:  

It reads as if you are very focussed at getting your numbers right. It all sounds like a lot of pressure. Even this very fixed idea of what a wingman should be like.

What do you mean by saying that you are very "competitive"?

I am trying to dial back pressure on myself but sometimes feel the pressure to perform in front of a new wing.

I basically like to approach and if I don't in a night out, feel like the night was largely wasted--especially with a wingman.

[Cobra]

(12-28-2018 10:11 AM)Heuristics Wrote:  

I realize with a wing there is not that same need to grind, so I will adjust accordingly.

Awesome.

Quote:

My goals are to have some social proof, to have a spotter as I call it (someone that can call the windage on shots and observe my game up close), and also have someone that I can learn from that way I can become a better gamer. On a deeper level, I have been looking for a solid friend for a while that can handle me dropping red-pills. Most the time I have to avoid that because of too many normies.

This is excellent. You are doing this for the right reasons insofar as learning from someone. I would even suggest having a number of wings and continue to solicit and recruit them. Point is that you are trying to learn from them. There's a difference between using their energy to bounce off of and creating that energy yourself.

Now, I'm going to caution you on the "red pill." You can't force it on some guys and even if you're trying to "impart" it, most times it just doesn't sink in. Red pill is something they have to be willing to accept. I show it to people once and if I get the sense they are not ready, I don't make much more effort. That's only my philosophy.

Quote:

I am not really much of a daygamer, so I wanted a wing that way going out would be a bit easier and also more fun when I’m not gaming.

I get that but as mentioned already, while discipline is good it can be the opposite of fun depending on your wing's personality. So it's not a bad idea to break it up and grab a drink or just hang out somewhere without the pressure of approaching.

Also as mentioned already, try not to mentally get to a point where you feel you have to have a wing.

Quote:

As for approaches, I am pretty good about approaching almost immediately, every time. One thing I do not really feel comfortable about yet, is approaching mixed sets. Otherwise, as you can see from my approach log, I have no problem approaching one girl, or five girls. But I’ll tell you what, it is much easier approaching a five-set with a wing. It takes a lot of the high-stakes pressure off the table.

Sets are significantly more difficult than single approaches. They can even be a waste of time. You almost always have to have fun in sets and be as indirect as possible. A good vibe and good calm energy are a must have for sets whereas for single approaches, this doesn't matter as much and girls will give you a pass since they are not being judged by the remaining portion of the set.

Quote:

My results, while still preliminary, are already better, and I’ve made more approaches in the past 2-3 weeks than I have in the two months prior to that. That’s a huge improvement on what I was doing.

I think you want to say that you are making a huge improvement in volume which is not the same thing as progression in game. That's the point I was trying to make. Keep in mind, I'm not saying this is a bad thing but a lot of people fall into the trap of mistaking volume for progress without actually improving much except the numbers. You want to improve your game so it takes less approaches and dates to bang.

Quote:

I have gotten more number closes, the sets have been of higher quality, and in general longer, and because he also has a social network, we can social circle game now, which I wasn’t doing before. He has a lead for me on a girl that he hooked up with, her friend wants to hookup with me now, because I am fun and apparently high energy.

Now, this is what I'm talking about. You made an adjustment by having a high quality wing and maybe his social energy bounces off of you. This is positive. However, keep in mind that social circle game, while great, is not as difficult as cold approaching especially during the day. Your wing may also not be there forever. So you have to be careful to not place too much reliance on your wing and use the lessons in a strategic and meaningful way.

You have to separate how much of this is from having a wing versus how much is your own skill. I think maybe having a few solo approach sessions in between would help you see this.

You seem to be fine cold approaching. Cold approaching by yourself can force you to make quicker adjustments. For example, when you don't see results, you may find a new wardrobe; then you get hotter girls. Then you realize you want to hit higher, and say you go to the gym. So on and so forth. Your quality should be going up based on your adjustments to your own character, not your volume of approaches or the quality of your wing.

All in all, I'm very excited to see your progress. I would like to take a look at your approach log.

[Rushmore]

Ok, so if you and I go out, have a great evening, dinner at a good place, a few drinks, stupid jokes and serious discussion - you would become nervous at some point and grab me by the sleeve, "come on, lets work on our budget"?

Also: wouldn't it make more sense trying to impress the girl instead of the wingman?

I don't know if an evening with you would be fun. Have you ever asked your wingmen what they think about you?

[Heuristics]

Cobra, thanks for the detailed response:

I will begin the search for more wings, but it can be hard. I don’t think most guys want to make a new friend and then go sargeing. This is the exact problem I ran into in the past; even though I have plenty of other interests beyond game.

I didn’t start dropping red pills, rather I tried to get a better read of the guy, and see if we really can shoot the shit. Turns out we can. So although I’m not dropping red pill a-bombs all the time, as this partnership progresses, hopefully I can impart some of the red pill knowledge I’ve learned. Because it certainly helped me when other red-pill guys did the same for me. Good advise.

Sets are difficult, and I miss daygame from time to time. You are right. Your bit about being indirect is very interesting, I think I understand what you mean, but if you could elaborate on it, I think we might be on to something that could noticeably improve quality of sets.

Volume as you say has gone up, but the wing has really helped with individual set value. We’ve only gone out about ~4 days, and each time has been largely positive and constructive. I’m going to work in solo approaches now that I have some member input that says it’s a good idea— I wouldn’t of thought of such a thing otherwise.

Most my approaches are posted on the thread: “ I have a long dryspell--I'm breaking this streak!”, but I may have left out a few unintentionally.

Thanks again for advise.

Rush, no I wouldn’t do that. I don’t go out every night and game, in fact, most the time I’m not even in state to game. But when I get in state, I may hit 3 nights in a row gaming.

I asked my wing the other day about the recent nights out, and he basically thought it was pretty entertaining what I was doing, I am actually pretty spontaneous and seems to be having fun, he's hitting me up every opportunity to go out. I shared in another thread I was pretending to be a Eastern European dude with his tinder date, so everyone thought it was funny and now she wants to hook me up with her friend. Seems like every time I walk into a bar something really interesting happens. But, have to say I have been working a lot on being fun and high energy. Several months ago a lot of my bar behavior would have been completely out of character for me at that time. Just something I decided to work on recently, and it seems to be working

[MaceTyrell]

Great thread and shows a guy who posts his thoughts and is actually willing to shape them when given advice.

OP - i'd try and link up with someone off RVF for winging. Amongst my friends I am the most willing to talk to girls when I am out, but I met up with Kirdiesel a few months ago and it showed how relative to the RVF standard, I am absurdly novice when it comes to nightgame.

[Heuristics]

(12-28-2018 02:17 PM)MaceTyrell Wrote:  

Great thread and shows a guy who posts his thoughts and is actually willing to shape them when given advice.

OP - i'd try and link up with someone off RVF for winging. Amongst my friends I am the most willing to talk to girls when I am out, but I met up with Kirdiesel a few months ago and it showed how relative to the RVF standard, I am absurdly novice when it comes to nightgame.

Mace, thanks for your insights. I have already done some digging to see if anyone on the forum is from my town (moderate in size by most accounts), and I have been unable to unearth anything, either from recently or even from the past of the forum. Indeed, even in my state the RVF active member presence is much smaller than I would expect. I don't really know what to do about that, but maybe there are other game forums where people are willing to meetup? I'm not familiar with any of htem.

As it turns out, in real life, I've ran into very few men that actually game. And if they do, it's tinder game--which if we're being honest is normie game-- or social circle gaming because they're popular. Out of all the people that even have some iota of interest in gaming (just talking offline) I am the most intense person in that group, easily. That's probably why I do a lot of gaming alone, and learned the basics of pickup without any mentorship. It was just all trial and error in the early days.

[bokeh]

Interesting to me that you mention "redpill", "redpill bombs" quite a bit here.
I am curious, what kind of red pill knowledge do you want to share with your wings and why? Does it help with game?
Because in my very limited knowledge of red pill, much of it is quite negative toward women, and negative in general.

[Heuristics]

(12-28-2018 03:20 PM)bokeh Wrote:  

Interesting to me that you mention "redpill", "redpill bombs" quite a bit here.
I am curious, what kind of red pill knowledge do you want to share with your wings and why? Does it help with game?
Because in my very limited knowledge of red pill, much of it is quite negative toward women, and negative in general.

Just Un-PC stuff in general. It gets pretty tiring self-censoring on basically any subject day in and day out. It's something I'm not really that used to doing.

First, I'd like to share game knowledge with him. A lot of game knowledge is red pill ie: hypergamy, the wall, nature of women, etc. So it will make it easier for me to explain game without having to turn red pill concepts into purple pill concepts, or something like that. Hell, even to approach women, if you follow social sjw feminist conditioning they would say "that's creepy and not respectful of women" or some bullshit. Woman are supposed to approach you right? Wrong, not how it works, and will never work that way. Orthodox thought reeks completely of puritanism and authoritarian feminism to me.

Being able to shoot the shit about politics, globalism, etc would just be an added bonus.

Most guys I get along with, I eventually after a long enough time find out they're not PC and not beta at all.

[lunchmoney]

(12-28-2018 12:58 PM)Rushmore Wrote:  

I don't know if an evening with you would be fun. Have you ever asked your wingmen what they think about you?

Honest but great suggestion. I personally had to check myself, as in the past I was similar to you, before two different guys told me about how it was to hang out with me. I adjusted and haven't had issues since.