[Kieran]

^ Online is weak compared to in person. I have dabbled with online and had success, but as soon as I meet a girl in person and have a real interaction she goes to the top of the pile, and it's the same for women. I have a load of matches, many of which look great, but I can't even be arsed to send them an opening message. I understand why girls are hardly replying to men, because I hardly reply myself.

The only real benefit I see of online is having a good instagram to close with in place of a number because it allows you to convey a load of attractive traits to the woman, builds comfort, etc. I still have decent results from cold approach and old fashioned text / WhatsApp, but if that ever fades the first thing I'd do would be to make an instagram and start using that in place of number closes.

[Borges]

I wonder if anyone can give me a recommendation. I've never read anything on game aside from blog posts and this forum. I'm definitely NOT a natural, but I have had enough notches for it not to be sheer luck, so I don't think I'm completely lacking in game.

For a beginner in this situation, which material would be good for starting out? I've read through the thread and there's a lot of interesting stuff - enough to keep me occupied for a year, so I'm thinking I should pick up something solid and stick with it for a while.

[pancakemouse]

(12-16-2018 09:11 AM)Super Average Man Wrote:  

I wonder if anyone can give me a recommendation. I've never read anything on game aside from blog posts and this forum. I'm definitely NOT a natural, but I have had enough notches for it not to be sheer luck, so I don't think I'm completely lacking in game.

For a beginner in this situation, which material would be good for starting out? I've read through the thread and there's a lot of interesting stuff - enough to keep me occupied for a year, so I'm thinking I should pick up something solid and stick with it for a while.

What are your goals and what are your personal details/lifestyle like? What age? Where do you live, etc?

[Borges]

(12-16-2018 02:03 PM)corsega Wrote:  

(12-16-2018 09:11 AM)Super Average Man Wrote:  

I wonder if anyone can give me a recommendation. I've never read anything on game aside from blog posts and this forum. I'm definitely NOT a natural, but I have had enough notches for it not to be sheer luck, so I don't think I'm completely lacking in game.

For a beginner in this situation, which material would be good for starting out? I've read through the thread and there's a lot of interesting stuff - enough to keep me occupied for a year, so I'm thinking I should pick up something solid and stick with it for a while.

What are your goals and what are your personal details/lifestyle like? What age? Where do you live, etc?

Goals:

1) cold approaching without looking like a weirdo or a boring chump. I estimate having done ~30 cold approaches in my lifetime, almost all of them in clubs. I'm terrible at it. Generally the conversations quickly die off. I've banged 2 out of those 30. Day game sounds like mission impossible to me. As I'm getting older, I think cold approaches will become more important if I want to continue banging younger women. They've started to filter me out in dating apps.

2) having more 'presence' or gravitas. Sometimes I'm overshadowed by less good looking friends because I'm pretty introverted. I do much better when meeting someone privately than in groups. Not sure this is something I can fix, but if game literature can help me with it, it's something I'd like to work on.

3) increasing the quality and frequency of my bangs, but I guess this has more to do with increasing my SMV than working on raw game.

Personal details:

Early 30s (I'm still able to attract 20-somethings). Face is relatively good looking, but I'm also relatively short and totally sedentary. I live in a South American country.

Lifestyle:

Boring aside from digital nomad'ing occasionally. I'm able to hold interesting conversations because I read about everything and have good taste for art, literature, food. But I don't really have a discernible hobby.

General outlook on life:

I'm a pretty contradictory person. Every day I grow more and more tired of modernity. I hate Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Yelp, and everything those websites represent. I hate video-games, phones, computers, super-hero movies, etc. I frequently think about buying a farm somewhere and raising chickens. That being said, I've always been an urbanite and I work in IT.

I'm generally very anti-social, but I occasionally get horny, install Tinder and make it a part-time job until I bang a random girl off it. I pretend I'm not a recluse when I meet them. I've been in a couple of LTRs (1-2 years each) that red pilled me pretty hard, so I'm vaccinated against feelings. I'd like to marry and have kids, but realistically I don't think it's going to happen. Lately I've been thinking about dedicating myself to the bachelor lifestyle for as long as I can milk it, which will probably be around 10 years at this point.

The more I browse through this forum, the more I realise the volume of work I have ahead of me if I want to get good at game. You guys are really something else. It's definitely inspiring.

[pancakemouse]

(12-16-2018 03:33 PM)Super Average Man Wrote:  

(12-16-2018 02:03 PM)corsega Wrote:  

(12-16-2018 09:11 AM)Super Average Man Wrote:  

I wonder if anyone can give me a recommendation. I've never read anything on game aside from blog posts and this forum. I'm definitely NOT a natural, but I have had enough notches for it not to be sheer luck, so I don't think I'm completely lacking in game.

For a beginner in this situation, which material would be good for starting out? I've read through the thread and there's a lot of interesting stuff - enough to keep me occupied for a year, so I'm thinking I should pick up something solid and stick with it for a while.

What are your goals and what are your personal details/lifestyle like? What age? Where do you live, etc?

Goals:

1) cold approaching without looking like a weirdo or a boring chump. I estimate having done ~30 cold approaches in my lifetime, almost all of them in clubs. I'm terrible at it. Generally the conversations quickly die off. I've banged 2 out of those 30. Day game sounds like mission impossible to me. As I'm getting older, I think cold approaches will become more important if I want to continue banging younger women. They've started to filter me out in dating apps.

2) having more 'presence' or gravitas. Sometimes I'm overshadowed by less good looking friends because I'm pretty introverted. I do much better when meeting someone privately than in groups. Not sure this is something I can fix, but if game literature can help me with it, it's something I'd like to work on.

3) increasing the quality and frequency of my bangs, but I guess this has more to do with increasing my SMV than working on raw game.

Personal details:

Early 30s (I'm still able to attract 20-somethings). Face is relatively good looking, but I'm also relatively short and totally sedentary. I live in a South American country.

Lifestyle:

Boring aside from digital nomad'ing occasionally. I'm able to hold interesting conversations because I read about everything and have good taste for art, literature, food. But I don't really have a discernible hobby.

General outlook on life:

I'm a pretty contradictory person. Every day I grow more and more tired of modernity. I hate Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Yelp, and everything those websites represent. I hate video-games, phones, computers, super-hero movies, etc. I frequently think about buying a farm somewhere and raising chickens. That being said, I've always been an urbanite and I work in IT.

I'm generally very anti-social, but I occasionally get horny, install Tinder and make it a part-time job until I bang a random girl off it. I pretend I'm not a recluse when I meet them. I've been in a couple of LTRs (1-2 years each) that red pilled me pretty hard, so I'm vaccinated against feelings. I'd like to marry and have kids, but realistically I don't think it's going to happen. Lately I've been thinking about dedicating myself to the bachelor lifestyle for as long as I can milk it, which will probably be around 10 years at this point.

The more I browse through this forum, the more I realise the volume of work I have ahead of me if I want to get good at game. You guys are really something else. It's definitely inspiring.

For getting younger women as an older man, I recommend Blackdragon: http://blackdragonblog.com/

If you come from an IT background (analytical) and want to get better at cold approach, I find Todd V's teachings the best: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo9XJen...PbXCq6e8aw

The South American thing puts a loop into things because a lot of the gamey stuff you read won't work in South America. So as far as "just be normal" game type resources I like both https://www.goodlookingloser.com/ and http://strengthbysonny.com/. Both guys also believe (as I do) that increasing SMV is the best path to quality (and quantity).

[Borges]

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them all out.

[Shemp]

>>I still have decent results from cold approach and old fashioned text / WhatsApp, but if that ever fades the first thing I'd do would be to make an instagram and start using that in place of number closes.

Why not do what I do? Have Instagram (and Facebook) point to a personal website, with your own domain name. Costs maybe $30/year for a domain name plus static website. Your own domain is a lot more impressive, IMO, than some tiny piece of virtual real estate in Fuckerberg's fiefdom, from which you can be evicted at any time I should add.

As for those skeleton sites on IG FB, have just the profile photo and block all friend/follower requests. A lot better to have zero friends/followers, with the excuse you're too busy for that bullshit (a valid excuse in many cases) than just a small number of friends/followers.

You can do anything you want on the personal website, of course.

[FlyByWire78]

Mark Manson - Models (book for inner game)

Michael Knight - Fundamentals of Female Dynamics (book on how to correct your unattractive behaviors).

Roosh - Bang (book for learning to structure dates, etc.)

[a beer is enough]

For 2018 and onwards, I think that the game is slowly turning into an image game instead of a game of brash boldness that PUA preached so much about.

Despite the backlash towards online dating, I have had my best results and most recent lays come from dating apps (mainly Bumble). Now on paper alone, I should be struggling because I am not white but I think thats a bunch of hogwash really. What I have found is that culturally, due to it being a social media age, we are heading to a society where the popularity contests matter well after high school and women are more hung up on them.

So when I say image game, I mean it is more about portraying the right kind of image and lifestyle to the world as a guy. A friend of mines works in sales and he tells me an example of how his profession has changed, it used to be you just go in cold and get hung up on but these days, you work more in tandem with marketing to get the message out and as a sales rep you don't always go in cold anymore like you used to. We had an interesting discussion to this and then I thought about how it goes back to game itself.

The pickup artist stuff is the equivalent of going in cold which might have worked well a decade back since fewer men were doing it. Now, I believe the guys doing well incorporate both sales and marketing techniques into one where yes they need to have the ability to close but they also need some marketing behind their brand with the brand being themselves.

One thing that will can change the game for you entirely, as it did for me, was great photos. My game compared to the average member on this forum actually sucks because cold approach makes me a bit uneasy, I can't do it outside of nightlife. Even during the day just chatting up a random is not a fear I have conquered yet but online dating has been a god send for me thanks to the good pictures. If you are a decent enough looking guy which any guy can accomplish, please have a good friend or a photographer take some high quality photos of you.

This thread here is a must-read:

thread-45167...otographer

Taking this back to the image game, it is about being the guy that can take great photos of himself that tell the story of who he is. What I have been amazed at with Roosh and even some of the RSD guys themselves is how they have managed to have so much staying power in the social media age, check out Roosh's Instagram if you guys haven't already, his pics are on point and I have no doubt he could get a fair number of matches if he wanted on dating apps.

[pancakemouse]

(12-18-2018 09:17 PM)a beer is enough Wrote:  

For 2018 and onwards, I think that the game is slowly turning into an image game instead of a game of brash boldness that PUA preached so much about.

Despite the backlash towards online dating, I have had my best results and most recent lays come from dating apps (mainly Bumble). Now on paper alone, I should be struggling because I am not white but I think thats a bunch of hogwash really. What I have found is that culturally, due to it being a social media age, we are heading to a society where the popularity contests matter well after high school and women are more hung up on them.

So when I say image game, I mean it is more about portraying the right kind of image and lifestyle to the world as a guy. A friend of mines works in sales and he tells me an example of how his profession has changed, it used to be you just go in cold and get hung up on but these days, you work more in tandem with marketing to get the message out and as a sales rep you don't always go in cold anymore like you used to. We had an interesting discussion to this and then I thought about how it goes back to game itself.

The pickup artist stuff is the equivalent of going in cold which might have worked well a decade back since fewer men were doing it. Now, I believe the guys doing well incorporate both sales and marketing techniques into one where yes they need to have the ability to close but they also need some marketing behind their brand with the brand being themselves.

One thing that will can change the game for you entirely, as it did for me, was great photos. My game compared to the average member on this forum actually sucks because cold approach makes me a bit uneasy, I can't do it outside of nightlife. Even during the day just chatting up a random is not a fear I have conquered yet but online dating has been a god send for me thanks to the good pictures. If you are a decent enough looking guy which any guy can accomplish, please have a good friend or a photographer take some high quality photos of you.

This thread here is a must-read:

thread-45167...otographer

Taking this back to the image game, it is about being the guy that can take great photos of himself that tell the story of who he is. What I have been amazed at with Roosh and even some of the RSD guys themselves is how they have managed to have so much staying power in the social media age, check out Roosh's Instagram if you guys haven't already, his pics are on point and I have no doubt he could get a fair number of matches if he wanted on dating apps.

Great post. Truth #1: This is the "image building business":

https://strengthbysonny.com/2018/11/06/2...bout-game/

[CharmingPsychopath]

Guys, I must say that I'm disgusted with the fact that anybody at all recommended RSD.

Seriously, it's 2018, one day from 2019 - is it still a mystery what kind of people they are and how they operate? Some people knew it already around 2003-2004.

It sickens me to see how the PUA community is suffering from the same problems over and over.

This should be something obvious, this should be common knowledge, but I guess it isn't, so I will say it: a lot of the various "seduction experts" are much, much less succesful with woman than they pretend to be. And whatever their methods and beliefs are, they usually do not work well for themselves - so why would they work well for somebody else?

Many PUA guys who met the "gurus" in real life (especially outside of the workshop environment) were dissapointed with them. I myself have experienced that - I've met several "experts", few of them being very well known around the world. And most of them simply sucked.


BTW I haven't met Todd, but I deeply recommend having a look at how his girlfriend looks like and comparing her looks to the image of his sexual life that his marketing is presenting. It's a great illustration to this whole subject of seduction gurus. (I give her 4/10, while some more generous people think she might be 5/10)

[pancakemouse]

(12-30-2018 11:44 PM)CharmingPsychopath Wrote:  

Guys, I must say that I'm disgusted with the fact that anybody at all recommended RSD.

Seriously, it's 2018, one day from 2019 - is it still a mystery what kind of people they are and how they operate? Some people knew it already around 2003-2004.

It sickens me to see how the PUA community is suffering from the same problems over and over.

This should be something obvious, this should be common knowledge, but I guess it isn't, so I will say it: a lot of the various "seduction experts" are much, much less succesful with woman than they pretend to be. And whatever their methods and beliefs are, they usually do not work well for themselves - so why would they work well for somebody else?

Many PUA guys who met the "gurus" in real life (especially outside of the workshop environment) were dissapointed with them. I myself have experienced that - I've met several "experts", few of them being very well known around the world. And most of them simply sucked.


BTW I haven't met Todd, but I deeply recommend having a look at how his girlfriend looks like and comparing her looks to the image of his sexual life that his marketing is presenting. It's a great illustration to this whole subject of seduction gurus. (I give her 4/10, while some more generous people think she might be 5/10)

Everyone gets their looksmatch. This is known by anyone who knows the truth. None of this is news.

A guy's ability as a teacher is not defined by his personal results. The best coaches are the guys who sucked and worked hard as hell to get where they are. Everyone who has been coached knows this.

If you think this is a 4, you need to have your scale adjusted.

[CharmingPsychopath]

(12-31-2018 01:25 AM)corsega Wrote:  

Everyone gets their looksmatch. This is known by anyone who knows the truth. None of this is news.

No, there's plenty of relationships with differences in looks.

I don't mean the old style PUA propaganda image of "no matter how bad you look, you can get a model!", which is of course bullshit.

I mean a situation, in which a guy who is reasonably attractive, being a 6 or 7, gets a 7 or 8, a girl who is 1 or 2 points higher.

Quote:

A guy's ability as a teacher is not defined by his personal results.

Yes and no.

There are many naturals who who can seduce and get girls hotter than themselves, but cannot teach.

But how can a guy who cannot get the results himself, who's "wonderful" methods and models don't work for himself, make the same methods and models work for somebody else?

Quote:

The best coaches are the guys who sucked and worked hard as hell to get where they are.

The problem is, a lot of these guys did not get where they say are. And they do not know how to become better than they are, or otherwise they would've done it themselves.

Quote:

If you think this is a 4, you need to have your scale adjusted.

So how do you rate her? (girl on the right)




And about the previous stuff I will say this - you don't know what you're talking about. The very fact that you're recommending RSD/Julien shows this, but not only that. But getting you out of your misguided beliefs cannot be achieved by some newcomer to this forum saying so. You think you know what's what and you will most likely defend your belief. For me, it feels very sad to see how the PUA community is still suffering from the same problems it was suffering in the early 2000s.

[Borges]

(12-31-2018 05:01 AM)CharmingPsychopath Wrote:  

Jesus, I've banged much better looking girls than her and I'm a balding recluse.
I actually think the RSD guy is better looking than this girl. He's dating down.

[griffinmill]

(12-30-2018 11:44 PM)CharmingPsychopath Wrote:  

Many PUA guys who met the "gurus" in real life (especially outside of the workshop environment) were dissapointed with them. I myself have experienced that - I've met several "experts", few of them being very well known around the world. And most of them simply sucked.

I've not met any gurus but I've met a few guys in the RSD orbit; fans and aspiring PUAs from their "inner circle". They were generally gamma and very, very weird. I stopped meeting any of them real fucking quick. There's something very strange about the men RSD attracts to the point I was ashamed of being a fan myself.

[griffinmill]

(12-31-2018 01:25 AM)corsega Wrote:  

Everyone gets their looksmatch. This is known by anyone who knows the truth. None of this is news.

Generally true, but not a rule.

I'm a wedding photographer by trade. I see many men punching way above their weight; gorgeous women who are hard 8s and soft 9s marrying 6s and 7s. Of course I'm not talking about fat, balding men marrying supermodels - no, simply very average-looking men marrying beautiful women, and I see this a lot more than the inverse. It should give the average-looking man much hope. It also has nothing to do with "beta bucks".

[pancakemouse]

(12-31-2018 05:01 AM)CharmingPsychopath Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 01:25 AM)corsega Wrote:  

Everyone gets their looksmatch. This is known by anyone who knows the truth. None of this is news.

No, there's plenty of relationships with differences in looks.

I don't mean the old style PUA propaganda image of "no matter how bad you look, you can get a model!", which is of course bullshit.

I mean a situation, in which a guy who is reasonably attractive, being a 6 or 7, gets a 7 or 8, a girl who is 1 or 2 points higher.

Quote:

A guy's ability as a teacher is not defined by his personal results.

Yes and no.

There are many naturals who who can seduce and get girls hotter than themselves, but cannot teach.

But how can a guy who cannot get the results himself, who's "wonderful" methods and models don't work for himself, make the same methods and models work for somebody else?

Quote:

The best coaches are the guys who sucked and worked hard as hell to get where they are.

The problem is, a lot of these guys did not get where they say are. And they do not know how to become better than they are, or otherwise they would've done it themselves.

Quote:

If you think this is a 4, you need to have your scale adjusted.

So how do you rate her? (girl on the right)




And about the previous stuff I will say this - you don't know what you're talking about. The very fact that you're recommending RSD/Julien shows this, but not only that. But getting you out of your misguided beliefs cannot be achieved by some newcomer to this forum saying so. You think you know what's what and you will most likely defend your belief. For me, it feels very sad to see how the PUA community is still suffering from the same problems it was suffering in the early 2000s.

One point higher is essentially "looksmatch" (really it's about imagematch).

With the combination of the two photos, I'd rate her a 5 or 5.5. It also looks like you cherry-picked a very bad photo of her. Perhaps Todd has realized, as all guys in this community should, that life is more than just about "banging hot girls".

So if we shouldn't be listening to any of these coaches, who should we be listening to, CharmingPsychopath?

[Repo]

(12-31-2018 01:25 AM)corsega Wrote:  

(12-30-2018 11:44 PM)CharmingPsychopath Wrote:  

Guys, I must say that I'm disgusted with the fact that anybody at all recommended RSD.

Seriously, it's 2018, one day from 2019 - is it still a mystery what kind of people they are and how they operate? Some people knew it already around 2003-2004.

It sickens me to see how the PUA community is suffering from the same problems over and over.

This should be something obvious, this should be common knowledge, but I guess it isn't, so I will say it: a lot of the various "seduction experts" are much, much less succesful with woman than they pretend to be. And whatever their methods and beliefs are, they usually do not work well for themselves - so why would they work well for somebody else?

Many PUA guys who met the "gurus" in real life (especially outside of the workshop environment) were dissapointed with them. I myself have experienced that - I've met several "experts", few of them being very well known around the world. And most of them simply sucked.


BTW I haven't met Todd, but I deeply recommend having a look at how his girlfriend looks like and comparing her looks to the image of his sexual life that his marketing is presenting. It's a great illustration to this whole subject of seduction gurus. (I give her 4/10, while some more generous people think she might be 5/10)

Everyone gets their looksmatch. This is known by anyone who knows the truth. None of this is news.

A guy's ability as a teacher is not defined by his personal results. The best coaches are the guys who sucked and worked hard as hell to get where they are. Everyone who has been coached knows this.

If you think this is a 4, you need to have your scale adjusted.

Whatever her number is, she is not an attractive woman.

[CharmingPsychopath]

(12-31-2018 07:26 AM)Super Average Man Wrote:  

Jesus, I've banged much better looking girls than her and I'm a balding recluse.

That's the thing - a lot of people are banging better looking girls. And they don't claim to be "seduction experts".

As for myself, all the girls I've banged, kissed, or even attempted to bang/kiss were hotter than her.

Quote:

I actually think the RSD guy is better looking than this girl. He's dating down.

He is short, which makes him less attractive than his face would indicated, but I still think he's hotter than her.

[pancakemouse]

(12-31-2018 12:16 PM)CharmingPsychopath Wrote:  

(12-31-2018 07:26 AM)Super Average Man Wrote:  

Jesus, I've banged much better looking girls than her and I'm a balding recluse.

That's the thing - a lot of people are banging better looking girls. And they don't claim to be "seduction experts".

As for myself, all the girls I've banged, kisses, or even attempted to bang/kiss were hotter than her.

Quote:

I actually think the RSD guy is better looking than this girl. He's dating down.

He is short, which makes him less attractive than his face would indicated, but I still think he's hotter than her.

Life is about more than banging hot girls.

What most guys want is happiness and fulfillment.

One day, you may understand this.

[CharmingPsychopath]

(12-31-2018 09:04 AM)griffinmill Wrote:  

I've not met any gurus but I've met a few guys in the RSD orbit; fans and aspiring PUAs from their "inner circle". They were generally gamma and very, very weird. I stopped meeting any of them real fucking quick. There's something very strange about the men RSD attracts to the point I was ashamed of being a fan myself.

I understand your experience with RSD fans very well.

I have met some of the RSD "gurus", including Owen and Julien and my impression was:

1. Negative in case of Julien.

2. Mind-blowingly negative in case of Owen.

I was often ashamed of their behaviour, especially in the case of Owen.

Quote:

Generally true, but not a rule.

I'm a wedding photographer by trade. I see many men punching way above their weight; gorgeous women who are hard 8s and soft 9s marrying 6s and 7s. Of course I'm not talking about fat, balding men marrying supermodels - no, simply very average-looking men marrying beautiful women, and I see this a lot more than the inverse. It should give the average-looking man much hope. It also has nothing to do with "beta bucks".

Of course. There are many such relationships.

Many people, myself included, get a feeling that 8-9 women are with 6-7 men more often than with their equals.

(12-31-2018 10:47 AM)corsega Wrote:  

One point higher is essentially "looksmatch" (really it's about imagematch).

If there's a one point difference, it's a difference, not a match.

Quote:

With the combination of the two photos, I'd rate her a 5 or 5.5. It also looks like you cherry-picked a very bad photo of her.

Actually, my photo shows her face well, you can see the details. While the photo you posted is edited, darkened to hide her ugliness.

Quote:

Perhaps Todd has realized, as all guys in this community should, that life is more than just about "banging hot girls".

That is the usual excuse of guys banging ugly chicks. While the guys that are any good know that some hot girls have nice personalities and there's no reason to not have both. No reason, except for the man being incapable to get such women, of course.

Quote:

So if we shouldn't be listening to any of these coaches, who should we be listening to, CharmingPsychopath?

That is a very good question.

Of course I know why you should be listening to me instead of them, but the question is how to make you understand that.

[pancakemouse]

(12-31-2018 01:09 PM)CharmingPsychopath Wrote:  

Of course I know why you should be listening to me instead of them, but the question is how to make you understand that.

Do you have a blog? Do you have material? What are your philosophies?

Or, if you prefer to evaluate it by your metrics:
- What are your results?
- What do you look like?
- What is the looks difference between you and the girls you have banged?

But the real kicker:
- Are you happy and fulfilled?

[Irish]

(12-31-2018 01:09 PM)CharmingPsychopath Wrote:  

Of course I know why you should be listening to me instead of them, but the question is how to make you understand that.

Deleting your first 4 aspie rant posts on this thread would be a start...

[pros80]

Since I see some posts regarding the looks matching Take a look at this popular instagram couple.

Clearly the girl is a few points better looking than the guy.

https://imgur.com/a/o2Z1c9F

[GT777733]

@CharmingPsychopath - you are generally right about everything you are saying. Especially RSD.

It's not worth arguing it or discussing it with some people though.

Guys involved in the pickup industry (students, coaches and those in the community) don't want to see the industry and the people involved in it for what it is until they are ready to see it

*Don't confuse this with me saying the pickup industry should not exist. What I am saying is that it is marketed, communicated and sold in completely the wrong way - and beginners or guys that don't know any better tend to get the wrong idea, develop a guru complex about the guys on YouTube teaching it (without knowing these guys' pasts or knowing what their day to day lives actually look like - pro tip: completely different to what they show you and tell you in their videos in 99.9% of cases), tend to get stuck in it and begin to think it can deliver them something it can't.