rooshvforum.network is a fully functional forum: you can search, register, post new threads etc...
Old accounts are inaccessible: register a new one, or recover it when possible. x


Expatriate Demographics in Latin America
#1

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

I'm doing research right now about the quantity, age breakdown, and other statistics of interest of foreign professional expatriates going to Latin America for careers.

Anyone have any ideas of how many gringos are working in LatAm and in what sectors?

Even breakdowns for specific cities would be good. Much appreciated.

-YMG
Reply
#2

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

My guess is you're going to find far more of them in southern South America: Buenos Aires, Sao Paolo, Rio, probably in that order. I imagine some in Colombia, but not as many. Retirees in Panama and Costa Rica. Then probably few and far between for the rest.

This is all speculation though. All I can speak for from experience is Buenos Aires. There was a surprisingly high amount of ex-pats there.
Reply
#3

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Quote: (09-25-2011 04:01 PM)Entropy4 Wrote:  

My guess is you're going to find far more of them in southern South America: Buenos Aires, Sao Paolo, Rio, probably in that order. I imagine some in Colombia, but not as many. Retirees in Panama and Costa Rica. Then probably few and far between for the rest.

This is all speculation though. All I can speak for from experience is Buenos Aires. There was a surprisingly high amount of ex-pats there.

This is a great question and I am not sure I have the answer at all.

As far as Buenos Aires, it did seem like a lot of expats during the "A Moveable Fiesta - Buenos Aires has become an expat haven like Paris in the twenties–except with girls in bikinis" Era http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-35...l#pid40748

I think a lot of people have returned, but I don't have conclusive data on this, its just a hunch.

I was in BA in April this year, but spent almost all my time in the south part of the city so I rarely if ever saw an American.
Reply
#4

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

A lot of the BA expats have packed up. It peaked around the time of that article and then thinned out over the last few years of the recession. In part i think peoples' money sources that floated them in BA dried up and combined with that it's become more difficult to stay long term in Arg visa-wise. It's not that cheap like it was before either.
Reply
#5

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

I read recently, maybe in the NYT, about expats heading to Brazil for jobs in their hot economy.
Reply
#6

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Quote: (09-25-2011 04:23 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Quote: (09-25-2011 04:01 PM)Entropy4 Wrote:  

This is all speculation though. All I can speak for from experience is Buenos Aires. There was a surprisingly high amount of ex-pats there.

As far as Buenos Aires, it did seem like a lot of expats during the "A Moveable Fiesta - Buenos Aires has become an expat haven like Paris in the twenties–except with girls in bikinis" Era

I think a lot of people have returned, but I don't have conclusive data on this, its just a hunch.

I lived in Buenos Aires for 6 months over 2010-2011 and was shocked, given articles like the above, at how *few* expats there were. Sure, there were plenty of backpackers, spanish language students, regular tourists and businessmen, but the number of expats I met was negligible.

Anecdotally, for example, I did my groceries at the Carrefour and Disco in Palermo Soho, supposedly expat central. I never once saw a foreigner in the former and only occasionally an expat in the latter. At the Palermo Megatlon (gym chain) in the entire time there, going 4 days a week at varying times, I saw one expat, an American guy freelancing web design stuff.

In my view, due to the quickly appreciating currency and cost of living (in real and not just nominal terms), overheating economy and increasing government hostility to perma-tourists, Argentina has peaked and is now on the downturn in terms number of expats.

I can't have sex with your personality, and I can't put my penis in your college degree, and I can't shove my fist in your childhood dreams, so why are you sharing all this information with me?
Reply
#7

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Interesting. I lived in BA from January to April 2010 and I met and fell in with a number of ex-pats all living in Palermo. Most of them were young, recent college grads, who were either bumming around teaching English or had landed short-term jobs there.

Yet interestingly (I just checked on Facebook), none of them are still down there.

I was also there in 2008, and it was noticeably more expensive in 2010 than 2008. It was still cheap by US standards. But whereas in 2008 you could have an epic night on $50 or less, by 2010, things were 3/4 of US prices (Not NYC or Miami prices... more like Memphis or Denver prices). $6-8 dinners. $3 drinks. $8 cabs.
Reply
#8

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

same as most places

engineers
IT
real estate
Reply
#9

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

To sum it up Buenos Aires was a dirt cheap hot spot that peaked around 2008, following the 2001 collapse of the peso. People on the ground in the right moment snapped up real estate and as word got out foreign dollars and expats poured in. By the time the US/global recession kicked in and persisted, Argentina's economy bounced back and BA was played out as an expat haven. These days it's more expensive and prices spiked (starting around 2008) in the "hot" neighborhoods like Palermo Soho. E.g. Apple store, Starbucks, nike, Ralph Lauren, Diesel, & others opening outlets in Palermo. Even Nike packed up now...
BA seems to have been eclipsed by Colombia for a vacation destination, and Brazil for an economic destination. For a backpackers/cheap expat haven, eastern europe kicks ba's ass. I think Roosh could tell you more about that
Reply
#10

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Quote: (09-28-2011 07:34 PM)The_CEO Wrote:  

To sum it up Buenos Aires was a dirt cheap hot spot that peaked around 2008, following the 2001 collapse of the peso. People on the ground in the right moment snapped up real estate and as word got out foreign dollars and expats poured in. By the time the US/global recession kicked in and persisted, Argentina's economy bounced back and BA was played out as an expat haven. These days it's more expensive and prices spiked (starting around 2008) in the "hot" neighborhoods like Palermo Soho. E.g. Apple store, Starbucks, nike, Ralph Lauren, Diesel, & others opening outlets in Palermo. Even Nike packed up now...
BA seems to have been eclipsed by Colombia for a vacation destination, and Brazil for an economic destination. For a backpackers/cheap expat haven, eastern europe kicks ba's ass. I think Roosh could tell you more about that

Good historical breakdown.

Isn't Starbucks there now?

"BA seems to have been eclipsed by Colombia for a vacation destination"

It would be interesting to know for sure, but I kind of doubt that.

Colombia is without a doubt more popular on here, and with the International Swoop Set, but I think your average guy or girl from America would go to Buenos Aires before Colombia, for sure.

Most people in America still think Colombia is unbelievably dangerous from the earlier Narco-Heavy eras.
Reply
#11

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Starbucks is still there. And is a major "weesh" hangout as one might say.

Good point about Colombia...Having spent considerable time Argentina already, Colombia seems more interesting now to me. The NYT has covered Cartagena as a potential "hotspot" in the last couple of years. We'll see. On the forum here, the popularity seems to have shifted from Argentina to Colombia, maybe reflecting Roosh's own experiences in each place.
Reply
#12

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

On the argument of Colombia eclipsing BA for tourism, I remember reading not long ago that in 2010, Colombia was the most visited country in south America even in front of Mighty Brasil.
For expats in SA, a very popular and hot place for retirees specially is Ecuador as it's a relatively cheap place to retire, has good weather and good overall quality of living. I've dealt with a lot of retirees who were/have been looking to move from NA to Ecuador. Uruguay is also a very popular place for retirees to settle as it's fairly advanced, nice weather year long and cheap cost of living. Brasil is no longer the cheap tropical paradise it used to be 5-8 years ago. Nowadays, prices are on par with North America specially in Rio and SP where the cost of living is close to if not higher than NYC. 5-6 years ago, you could have rented a nice apartment in Ipanema for 50 bucks a night, now the same won't be lower than $200 a night. 6 years ago, I would fly from GRU to GIG for 99 reais or 45 dollars. Now the same one way fare is over 150$ if not higher. Brasil is a SPECTACULAR country but you better go with serious cash to enjoy it. And it's not looking to get any better any time soon as the Brasilian economy is growing faster than ever while the Ameriacn one is tanking more and more..If you'red looking for career minded expats, then Brasil and more particularly SP is where you'd find about 90% of them.
Reply
#13

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

"And it's not looking to get any better any time soon as the Brasilian economy is growing faster than ever while the Ameriacn one is tanking more and more."

I have read a number of articles where they said Brazilians are buying up Miami Beach.

5 years ago Miami Beach was was more expensive than Brazil.

Now, with the real estate crash, and the Real increasing against the dollar, they have been going hog wild (can anyone from Miami confirm this?)

As a side note:

Is anyone else noticing the irony of other countries coming to America to buy "cheap real estate" after our "crash" with a "stronger currency"?

I thought we were the ones that were supposed to be doing that?
Reply
#14

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

It's a bit of a consensus right now that the Real is very over-valued at the moment and that Brazil is in a bit of a bubble. It's actually a good argument for NOT traveling there currently, as the dollar won't take you nearly as far as it should. I say give them 3-5 years and see where they're at.
Reply
#15

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Can anyone comment on the major cities in LatAm where gringos would be working?

I'm interested in knowing what kind of demographics/population of gringos are going to major latAm cities for white collar jobs, like consulting/finance/luxurygoods etc.

I feel like an expat going to Asia is more likely to be going for an ambitious international career compared to your latAm gringo. I'd like to be proved wrong, though.
Reply
#16

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Quote: (09-29-2011 03:56 AM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  

Can anyone comment on the major cities in LatAm where gringos would be working?

I'm interested in knowing what kind of demographics/population of gringos are going to major latAm cities for white collar jobs, like consulting/finance/luxurygoods etc.

I feel like an expat going to Asia is more likely to be going for an ambitious international career compared to your latAm gringo. I'd like to be proved wrong, though.

YMG- I think you're right but principally b/c these opportunities don't exist on a large scale in LatAm. These places aren't huge economic engines hungry for foreign talent. Yes, there are a small number of expats, mainly in the major cities, Bs.As., Santiago, etc.
The one story that has come up repeatedly in the news is Brazil...I've even read about American farmers going there. See below...
Reply
#17

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Foreigners Follow Money to Booming Brazil, Land of $35 Martini

RIO DE JANEIRO — Pondering the financial storms lashing Europe and the United States, Seth Zalkin, a casually dressed American banker, sipped a demitasse and seemed content with his decision to move here in March with his wife and son.

Michelle Noyes in São Paulo. “I could tell this place was booming,” said Ms. Noyes, a New Yorker who has taken a job in Brazil.
“If the rest of the world is cratering, this is a good place to be,” said Mr. Zalkin, 39.
For those with even the dimmest memories of Brazil’s own debt crisis in the 1980s, the global order has been turned on its head. The American economy may be crawling along, but Brazil’s grew at its fastest clip in more than two decades last year and unemployment is at historic lows, part of the nation’s transformation from inflationary basket case into one of Washington’s top creditors.
With compensation rivaling that on Wall Street, so many foreign bankers, hedge fund managers, oil executives, lawyers and engineers have moved here that prices for prime office space surpassed those in New York this year, making Rio the costliest city in the Americas to lease it, according to the real estate company Cushman & Wakefield.
A gold rush mind-set is in full swing, with foreign work permits surging 144 percent in the past five years and Americans leading the pack of educated professionals putting down stakes.
Businessmen have long been drawn to Brazil, along with get-rich-quick confidence men, dreamers of Amazonian grandeur and even outlaws like Ronald Biggs, the Briton who absconded here after his 1963 Great Train Robbery.
But now schools catering to American and other English-speaking families have long waiting lists, apartments can cost $10,000 a month in coveted parts of Rio and many of the newcomers hold Ivy League degrees or job experience at the pillars of the global economy.
Once here, they find a country facing a very different challenge than do the United States and Europe: fears that the economy is getting too hot.
One particular shock for newcomers is the strength of Brazil’s currency, the real. That may help Brazilians snapping up apartments in places like South Beach in Miami, where properties cost about a third of their equivalents in Rio’s exclusive districts. But it also hurts the country’s manufacturers and exporters.
So in a bid to prevent it from going even higher, Brazil is now one of the biggest buyers of United States Treasury securities, becoming a larger stakeholder in the ailing American economy. That is a sharp break from the past, when Washington helped cobble together bailout packages for Brazil’s financial crises.
“Brazil is doing great, but honestly, every other week I ask myself, ‘When is this going to end?’ ” said Mark Bures, 42, an American executive who moved here in 1999, just in time to see an abrupt devaluation of the currency and other sharp swings in Brazil’s fortunes.
A few veteran American expatriates even remember Brazil’s last economic “miracle” in the early 1970s, when The Wall Street Journal quoted an ebullient banker at the start of a front-page article who predicted, “In 10 years, Brazil will be one of the five great powers of the world.” Instead, the country ended up with daunting levels of foreign debt.
The recent commodities boom and growth in domestic consumption, the result of an expanding middle class, helped turn Brazil into a rising power that bounced back handily from the 2008 global financial crisis. The economy grew 7.5 percent last year and is expected to register about 4 percent growth this year — slower, but still enviable in the United States.
Yet Brazil offers many challenges to give newcomers pause. Labor legislation favors hiring Brazilians over foreigners, and the lengthy process of obtaining a work visa can surprise those unaccustomed to Brazil’s gargantuan bureaucracy.
Some economists consider the Brazilian real the world’s most overvalued currency against the dollar and inflation has climbed (as evidenced by $6.16 Big Macs and $35 martinis). Interest rates remain stubbornly high and analysts debate whether a credit bubble is forming as consumers continue a multiyear spree on everything from homes to cars.
Brazil is hardly immune to the turbulence in global markets, and its currency has weakened a bit this month. Rio’s real estate has been bustling as soccer’s World Cup in 2014 and the Olympic Games in 2016 approach, but its infrastructure is inadequate. Violent crime, though falling in some areas, plagues big parts of the country and Rio, which suffered through a traumatic bus hijacking this month.
Still, foreigners are arriving, and work authorizations for them jumped more than 30 percent in 2010 alone, according to the Labor Ministry.

“I had very basic Portuguese, but I could tell this place was booming,” said Michelle Noyes, 29, a New Yorker who organized a hedge fund conference in São Paulo. Shortly after, she made the leap to Brazil for a job at a São Paulo asset management firm.
Related

“I moved from the periphery of the industry to the center,” said Ms. Noyes, citing five other Americans, two from New York and three from Chicago, who are moving to Brazil this month to try their luck.
Americans form the largest group moving here, followed by contingents of Britons and other Europeans. Some are on temporary assignments. Others are starting ventures big and small.
David Neeleman, the American founder of JetBlue Airways, recently created Azul, a low-cost Brazilian airline. Corrado Varoli, an Italian who oversaw Goldman Sachs’ Latin American operations from New York, now runs his own São Paulo boutique investment bank. New Brazilian dot-coms like Baby.com.br <http://Baby.com.br> , an online diaper retailer founded this year by two American cousins fresh out of business schools like Wharton and Harvard’s, sometimes give Brazil a bubbly feel not unlike that of the United States in 1999.
Others foreigners take jobs at Brazilian companies thriving from a boom partly created by Brazil’s trade with China.
“Our salaries here in Brazil are at least 50 percent more than salaries in the U.S. for strategic positions,” said Jacques Sarfatti, country manager for Russell Reynolds, a company that recruits business executives.
Foreigners compete with Brazilians returning home from abroad. “It’s really obvious that the labor market is so bad elsewhere,” said Dara Chapman, 45, a Californian who is a partner in a Rio hedge fund, Polo Capital. She said she was receiving so many résumés from would-be transplants from the United States that they were a “dime a dozen.”
Brazil’s huge deep-sea oil discoveries have also drawn investors and foreigners, including thousands of Filipinos working on ships and offshore oil platforms. For its other industries, Brazil needs an estimated 60,000 new engineers, some of whom must come from abroad, given the country’s lagging educational system.
“I moved from Beijing a year ago and find the potential for professional development incredible,” said Cynthia Yuanxiu Zhang, 27, a Chinese manager at a technology company. “I’m already planning to extend my time here well into this decade.”
Reply
#18

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

+1 Thank you, CEO

I keep hearing about Sao Paulo in particular being where a person, especially an English-speaking Gringo, could get hired.

I feel like opportunities actually do exist in large numbers in economies such as Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Chile, Brazil, Argentina, but they just haven't been properly exposed. Yeah, companies might be getting gringo CVs but they never act on them. They have no means of properly screening talent so the CVs go to the garbage.
Reply
#19

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

My guess is that there are opportunities in Chile and Brazil (which make sense based on what we're reading). In Argentina, the economy has been bad (to say the least) until the last couple of years, and the peso is still relatively low vs. the dollar and the other currencies, so that combined with low demand and govt red tape for bringing in a foreign skilled worker...

On the other hand, when the peso crashed in Argentina, young entrepreneurs came in and tried to take advantage of low start up costs. How they fared is another story.

Bloomberg has an American staff writer in Buenos Aires... Maybe not a bad idea to get in touch with them and ask for some serious data.
Reply
#20

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

The majority of the best opportunities are in Brasil and specially in Sp and around Maceio where Petrobras, the Brasilian oil government owned company operates from. In Brasil, the best opportunities for gringos would be in the oil/energy industry as Brasil is mega blessed in that department, specially after the huge reserves they found recently off the Brasilian coast. In other industries, I'd say the chances for gringos are slim as the Brasilian society churns highly talented professionals in every field plus by hiring a Brasilian, they are not only growing their own economy but also avoiding the nighmarish red tape to sponsor and bring in a foreigner. So thats for traditional career opportunities in Brasil. Now, despite this, the gringos best equiped to take full advantage of the Brasilian boom are those who are on the ground, speak the lingo, and can network like crazy to get into the right crowds and circles AND highly skilled to stand a chance for the near impossible working visa to obtain for a foreigner. Exactly the same way to get the best girls in Brasil. IMO, what may work in China for fresh unexperienced white gringos, is the complete opposite in Brasil. To make it in Brasil, you'd have to be an already established, highly skilled professional first of all to get over the work visa huge hurdle alone. Best and fastest way to make a career in Brasil is to get shipped by a multinational from abroad to their brasilian offices.
Reply
#21

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

The foreign embassies would be your best bet in those countries to find out how many expats are living there permanently and part time.
Reply
#22

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

I agree with most people's sentiments on here. I still think that Asia is far better a location as far as expat careers go - in terms of responsibility, pay, opportunities, and a range of other issues.

I also feel like Latin America is far more protectionist of employment for their local workforce, which I think ultimately works against them in some ways.

I'm outsourcing a detailed research report about expatriate trends, demographics, industries/occupations, and other critical data to a freelance consultant. This will eventually become "freemium" content for my site and product.

When it's out, I'll throw up some of the more important findings on here.
Reply
#23

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

Latin America is piggy backing off the growth of Asia, without natural resources they would not be growing near as much. Asians live to study and work, Latinos live to party, where will a global company go....Asia.

Countries that rely on nat resources only for growth always fail in the long term.

Gringos don't get hired in LatAm like Asia bc the Latinos don't get it, i don't think it has to do with screening talent, Asians see the big picture and plan for the long term. Learn from them (expats) then get rid of them when you have the knowledge, in LatAm they think short term...protect jobs of locals.
Reply
#24

Expatriate Demographics in Latin America

I'd be interested in seeing if I can help someone hack into a Latin America career.

If one of you guys has been considering finding a job in LatAm, let me know.

Be warned that I've never tried LatAm before but the strategies I have, as far as I know work universally in emerging markets.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)